Is there a particular character you can't seem to build in a way you want? Maybe that'd be a better way to solve your problem than trying to argue in the abstract.
Let's compare:
Evocation costs 3 refresh and grants you 3 evocation elements, 1 point of specialization and 2 focus item slots.
Channeling costs 2 refresh and grants you 2 focus item slots, but you can take 1 refresh of refinement, giving you 2 points for specialization.
Even under bog-standard canon rules, Mort's a better ectomancer than Harry. His skills might be a point or two lower since Harry's a much higher-Refresh character, but unlike Harry Mort has relevant focus bonuses.
No, Channeling doesn't permit taking Refinement for specialization. It can only get you more focused item slots (or enchanted item slots if you trade them in).I thought we'd agreed to hang those rules. ;)
By the numbers, a FP can be better than a wizard who doesn't pay any attention to that field (at least with Evocation, Thaumaturgy grants you access to all kinds of ritual magic) but can never be better than a wizard whose bonuses are placed in that field. If I've understood the rules correctly, granted.Like I said, the rules are assuming that a focused practitioner is not just a wizard who is specialized in one field, but someone with less overall magic, so if they were to spread it out, it would too little overall to actually do any magic, that's why they are specialized like that. Wizards just have a larger reservoir of magic to draw from, so even if they do a sloppy spell, there's more than enough to make it happen. But even if you keep to the specialization rules, you can have a lot of bonuses on items, which will be more than enough in most cases.
Even under bog-standard canon rules, Mort's a better ectomancer than Harry. His skills might be a point or two lower since Harry's a much higher-Refresh character, but unlike Harry Mort has relevant focus bonuses.
Like I said, the rules are assuming that a focused practitioner is not just a wizard who is specialized in one field, but someone with less overall magic,
But ultimately, if you want to create a character like the one you are looking for, you'll have to do a bit of work on tweaking things, because the focused practitioner from Your Story just isn't the same as the kind of character you have in mind.
Ghost story heavily implied or outright stated, that mort was actually strong enough to count as a wizard. He had simply fudged his test results in the same manner as Elaine to avoid be long pulled into the War.I just reread the book he is in no way like a wizard extremly limited. The fact of the matter is the rules for the game suck and do a lousy job representing the stuff in the book. Also harry is a sucky wizard, hes strong thats it. His ability to actually do wizard stuff also seems limited. The book makes it lok like you need to learn spells the game lets you describe you stuff as spells so escentialy you know all spells game sucks and that is why we have crap loads of house rules.
So the Mort vs Harry example would seem to be a heavily specialized wizard compared to a generic wizard. A focused practitioner vs a generic wizard might play out differently.
I've seen the suggestions for specialist mages using Sponsored Magic with abstract concepts, somewhat like the way the game handles big-N Necromancers. But I never got the impression that Mortimer was a servant of ghostly powers, just a guy who cared.
We have a lot of house rules, because the game designers actively encourage players to make up their own rules to fit their playstyle.in the first book he had to work out how the heart spell was done. Dresden has maybe 4 or 5 spells. He has rarely used any thing beyond those.he Implies others can. The game system actually only has 3 spells block, attack, and maneuver. Thats it it blows. Basically you dont have to anything else. I block him from seeing, iblock him from moving. As far as mechanics go its a bore. The rule system has stripped away all the game and left you with a couple of people debating what happened how it hapened and another other person pissed that it wasnt done his way.
Nowhere in the novels does it say that you need to learn spells. Magic is you imposing your will on reality, and that's covered pretty well by the game system. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it actually does a pretty good job at covering the dresdenverse as we know it (or at least knew it up to that point).
in the first book he had to work out how the heart spell was done. Dresden has maybe 4 or 5 spells. He has rarely used any thing beyond those.he Implies others can. The game system actually only has 3 spells block, attack, and maneuver. Thats it it blows. Basically you dont have to anything else. I block him from seeing, iblock him from moving. As far as mechanics go its a bore. The rule system has stripped away all the game and left you with a couple of people debating what happened how it hapened and another other person pissed that it wasnt done his way.
Nowhere in the novels does it say that you need to learn spells. Magic is you imposing your will on reality, and that's covered pretty well by the game system. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it actually does a pretty good job at covering the dresdenverse as we know it (or at least knew it up to that point).
Overall, I'd say your last claim is true. But on this particular issue, the rules do NOT do a good job of representing the novel's version of Dresden's world - not up to the point of Small Favor, and definitely not after that point. There are other points where the rules also break down - such as Spirit evocation being so much more option-heavy and thus more powerful than the other elemental evocations.in all the novels hd has to understand how to do something before he can do it storm front good example
Overall, I'd say your last claim is true. But on this particular issue, the rules do NOT do a good job of representing the novel's version of Dresden's world - not up to the point of Small Favor, and definitely not after that point.
There are other points where the rules also break down - such as Spirit evocation being so much more option-heavy and thus more powerful than the other elemental evocations.
in all the novels hd has to understand how to do something before he can do it storm front good exampleI believe you've got things a bit backwards here. What you are eluding to above with attack, defend and maneuver, those are not spells, those are the 3 standard actions of Fate, they count for everything you do in the game, not just spells. If a character has a high craftsmanship skill, that doesn't mean he can do everything crafty, he'd still need an aspect describing what exactly it is he can do. Or a high scholarship skill doesn't mean you know everything there is to know, it's going to have to be subject to your aspects, again. They are a big part of this, and I feel like you are totally ignoring them when it comes to this.
If a character has a high craftsmanship skill, that doesn't mean he can do everything crafty, he'd still need an aspect describing what exactly it is he can do. Or a high scholarship skill doesn't mean you know everything there is to know, it's going to have to be subject to your aspects, again. They are a big part of this, and I feel like you are totally ignoring them when it comes to this.So following this line of reasoning... just because your character has high Alertness doesn't mean he can react quickly unless he has an Aspect for it? A character with high Athletics cannot make use of that unless he has an Aspect stating he dodges bullets for a living? Or he can only use Athletics to dodge bullets but not punches?
So just because I have thaumaturgy, doesn't mean I know everything that might be possible to do with magic. I know what is reasonable for my character to know, based on who he is and what he's done in the past.
So following this line of reasoning... just because your character has high Alertness doesn't mean he can react quickly unless he has an Aspect for it? A character with high Athletics cannot make use of that unless he has an Aspect stating he dodges bullets for a living? Or he can only use Athletics to dodge bullets but not punches?Well, sort of. The thing with dodging and defense rolls is that they are (partially) passive. It's just as much about how you move around in general, as it is about actively moving away from harm. I would question a high athletics skill if the aspects don't match up, though. That doesn't mean there have to be detailed explanations, but a general sense of how good he can be. Usually, that isn't even a problem, because the character idea will bring forth both the aspects and the skills, so they will more often than not match up anyway.
in all the novels hd has to understand how to do something before he can do it storm front good exampleI rather equate the Thaumaturgy in the game with reverse engineering something you've see done" "Okay, I don't know HOW he did it, but knowing that he DID do it and that it CAN be done is half the problem right there." You go quickly (with Bob's help) into theory (and possibly gray and not-so-gray areas of magic) to figure things out.
I suspect that comes from a misguided attempt to emulate the novels, actually.
Precisely. Which is why I'm trying to figure out the rules-changes necessary to permit this system to represent characters like Mortimer. I don't see the point of your comment.The problem is, that you only claim that a character like Mort isn't possible, but other than that, you don't have any examples on where the rules clash with your vision of how Mort should look like in the rpg. There have been a dozen and a half versions of Mort on this board, I think, so it is obviously possible to put him into numbers, so please understand that your argument is quite confusing.
The problem is, that you only claim that a character like Mort isn't possible, but other than that, you don't have any examples on where the rules clash with your vision of how Mort should look like in the rpg.
That Mort didn't exist when the RPG was written.As I mentioned in the very first post. Nevertheless, the fact that the novels have expanded our understanding of the Dresdenverse means that the RPG is no longer adequate for producing the 'feeling' of the novel's setting.
And he can easily be modeled by giving him "Mimic Abilities" coupled with "Human Form" (to limit the use of powers to times when he is linked with a ghost) and a list of ghosts he might have access to.That might be an adequate representation of a single power; he has others not readily represented by the rules.
he has others not readily represented by the rules.What powers are you referring to? I've yet to run into a power that was impossible to model with the system, one way or the other. I kind of get the impression you want to dislike the system. Which is fine, but if that's the case, please tell me, so I can stop bothering to try to give you a solution.
You could give him Ghost Speaker? Then he can do 'at will' what a normal wizard can only do with the time and effort of a Ritual.Certainly I think that's required - he seems able to see and converse with ghosts without expending effort of any kind. It would probably also explain how he's been able to develop his spellcasting without having any (other) magical senses. As Harry has pointed out previously, anyone could learn to do magic - but without the ability to sense its flows, it's like the blind learning to paint.
I don't see the point of your comment.
But it's different when it comes to active use of a skill. You can be an elite soldier with high athletics, but that doesn't mean you can do a backflip, or navigate a laser grid with your nimble cheerleading skills. You might have another way to use the skill, but you'll describe it differently. And that's exactly my point. I don't want to prohibit people from using their skills, I want them to use their skills in a way their character would actually do.I disagree. All of the trappings of the skill are available to the character. If some of the trappings are to be made unavailable to the character via their Aspects, then it is/they are a Compel/s.
For example, I had a player with a wizard that was specialized in plant based thaumaturgy. But when it came to creating a trap for someone, he started talking blastwaves and explosions, etc. I stopped him and reminded him of what his character is actually about, and he switched that up and it became a vine trap instead. Mechanically, it was pretty much the same, Fate doesn't have many different actions, after all, but it felt a whole lot different, once the spell was cast.
I disagree. All of the trappings of the skill are available to the character. If some of the trappings are to be made unavailable to the character via their Aspects, then it is/they are a Compel/s.I'm not talking about trappings, I'm talking about how those trappings are used. Michael and Charity both have high craftsmanship skills. Michael is a carpenter, but he doesn't know how to work with metal, that's why Charity builds and repairs his armor. But Charity is no carpenter, so it's up to Michael to do anything related to that. Yet both of them are using craftsmanship with all its trappings. If Michael's player started to say he is now building something complicated out of metal, I would remind him of who his character can do, and he would be able to solve his problem with craftsmanship, just as he had planned, but in a carpenter way instead.
Not really, because specialisations require more than one element to give you more than a +2 in anything (+1 power/+2 control in Ectomancy, for instance).
I'm not talking about trappings, I'm talking about how those trappings are used. Michael and Charity both have high craftsmanship skills. Michael is a carpenter, but he doesn't know how to work with metal, that's why Charity builds and repairs his armor. But Charity is no carpenter, so it's up to Michael to do anything related to that. Yet both of them are using craftsmanship with all its trappings. If Michael's player started to say he is now building something complicated out of metal, I would remind him of who his character can do, and he would be able to solve his problem with craftsmanship, just as he had planned, but in a carpenter way instead.I still think it is a Compel. Michael wants to repair his armor, if the GM thinks he should do it in carpentry way, he can offer a Compel. Which Michael's player can buy off.
I still think it is a Compel. Michael wants to repair his armor, if the GM thinks he should do it in carpentry way, he can offer a Compel. Which Michael's player can buy off.This is like saying that because I can hang drywall means I can install cabinets. Sure they both deal with building a house but they are very different specializations. The ability to hang drywall has absolutely no bearing on understanding how to install cabinets. They are different professions, such as carpentry and metalworking.
This is like saying that because I can hang drywall means I can install cabinets. Sure they both deal with building a house but they are very different specializations. The ability to hang drywall has absolutely no bearing on understanding how to install cabinets. They are different professions, such as carpentry and metalworking.No I am saying that because you can do it all (unless you have an Aspect or Aspects that relates to the situation) you can install cabinets. Having a high Craftsmanship without any Aspects to compel means you can do it all.
No I am saying that because you can do it all (unless you have an Aspect or Aspects that relates to the situation) you can install cabinets. Having a high Craftsmanship without any Aspects to compel means you can do it all.This seems like a broken loop hole. No one is "able to do it all."
A master carpenter has an Aspect relating to carpentry and a high Craftmanship.That feels a bit like putting the cart before the horse. To me, the aspects come first. I describe who my character is and what he can do through his aspects. A master carpenter can do master carpentry, a master metalworker can do master metalwork. They don't need skills for it, it's what they do. Likewise a "Jack of all Trades" could do everything, but as the proverb continues, he's "master of none", so he can't just do the same things as the other two.
A master metalworker has an Aspect relating to metalworking and a high Craftmanship.
Some guy with a high Craftmanship and no related Aspects/or a more positive/less limited Aspect can do everything.
Per the rules, you get only seven permanent Aspects. Characters are often more complex than that - and some kinds of characters have 'hidden Aspects' when it comes to certain parts of the game, like wizards with unintentional hexing.
If someone wants to establish a detail that serves as a very specific Aspect for a particular topic, I'd have no problem with them doing that. Harry's inability to speak Latin properly early in the series would be a good example - it's not part of his core seven, but it's a very obvious disadvantage that probably gets him a FP at several points.
Although you know. Fuego! Pyrofuego!! Burn!!! It can be adjusted at times for your non-rote effects.Not only that, it works the other way around as well. If you have a rote attack spell weapon:4 named "Fuego", for example, you can easily yell Fuego when doing a weapon:3 spell, or a weapon:9 spell, or a maneuver to set the door on fire, or when throwing around fireballs to put up a block of fireball barrage. Every time you're doing the same thing, throwing around fireballs, so simply "Fuego" will work nicely.