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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Rasins on December 28, 2017, 04:33:59 PM
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Here's a question .... Why didn't Nick reveal that he wanted more than just the Grail? He told the group that much, why not say he wanted all of the relics of the Crucifixion? I know he doesn't want to reveal too much to his enemies, but if he had said he wanted all of them, then Harry would have been obligated give him all of them and not just the Grail.
When he told Harry and crew about what he was wanting, Harry didn't know they were weapons, so it could have been wrapped up in the need to fulfill the obligation to Mab.
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Nicodemus is probably one of those guys that never tells anyone the full extent of his plans (not unlike wizards, really). My best guess is whatever he had planned for all five artifacts was something he didn't want anyone else figuring out.
Suffice to say, whatever he can do with all five is going to be monumentally worse than what he could do with just the Grail. And letting people figure out and speculate what that might be is practically an invitation for someone to try and stop him.
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Here's a question .... Why didn't Nick reveal that he wanted more than just the Grail? He told the group that much, why not say he wanted all of the relics of the Crucifixion? I know he doesn't want to reveal too much to his enemies, but if he had said he wanted all of them, then Harry would have been obligated give him all of them and not just the Grail.
When he told Harry and crew about what he was wanting, Harry didn't know they were weapons, so it could have been wrapped up in the need to fulfill the obligation to Mab.
Because if he did, the whole mission wouldn't have happened, or that is what he was thinking. Personally I think it was like a line from "The Lion In Winter..." Nic knows they were all weapons, Mab knows that they are all weapons, and Nic knows that Mab knows..." The only one who didn't was Harry, who Mab happened to be testing further in my opinion... Don't be shocked if she is very aware that Harry pocketed the rest of the weapons and that they are just where she wants them...
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Nic could have told Harry and thus obligated him to help secure all the artifacts, however, he had no way of predicting how Harry would react to that information. If Harry knew that 5 powerful religious artifacts were at stake he might have worked harder to derail the plan along the way. Even at the cost of his own life if he thought the keeping them out of Nic's hands was worth it. Nic has seen how Harry reacts with regards to one artifact (the Shroud) and thus has a baseline to measure Harry's actions/motivations by. Throwing the 5 artifact info out into the open would drastically alter Harry's plans from the get go in my opinion.
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Because if he did, the whole mission wouldn't have happened, or that is what he was thinking. Personally I think it was like a line from "The Lion In Winter..." Nic knows they were all weapons, Mab knows that they are all weapons, and Nic knows that Mab knows..." The only one who didn't was Harry, who Mab happened to be testing further in my opinion... Don't be shocked if she is very aware that Harry pocketed the rest of the weapons and that they are just where she wants them...
I don't think that Mab not telling Harry was a test. You don't test someone like that over something so serious because it's no longer a test, it's real. My guess is either she didn't see a reason to tell him, or even him knowing would be worse than not knowing, or part of the deal with Nicodemus meant she could not tell Harry the nature of the artifacts.
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Of course Mab knows Harry pocketed the weapons.
That was part of the point of sending him there.
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I don't think we can assume Nic knew there were 5 items. In fact, the reading suggests he didn't know how many items there were. He is left with the idea that Harry perhaps had the 'other' item, or possibly 'others'. The reading does suggest that Nic knew there were more items than one though as Harry believes whatever Nic says he is after isn't exactly all that he is after.
I think it was the knife that Nic mostly wanted.
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I think there's a specific, and very clear, problem with telling Harry: Harry of all people knows the Noose makes Nicodemus almost invulnerable, but not precisely. The Spear of Longinus also makes one (all but) invincible. If Harry knew that Nicodemus was after the means to make himself two-layered invulnerable, he probably would have blown everything up.
Instead, as he discussed about the Grail with Michael, he doesn't precisely understand what Nicodemus could possibly do with it, so he was a bit more sanguine about gambling on it.
It's interesting, here, that the 'gospel of Nicodemus' is the first that goes into detail on the whole Longinus angle.
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I think there's a specific, and very clear, problem with telling Harry: Harry of all people knows the Noose makes Nicodemus almost invulnerable, but not precisely. The Spear of Longinus also makes one (all but) invincible. If Harry knew that Nicodemus was after the means to make himself two-layered invulnerable, he probably would have blown everything up.
Instead, as he discussed about the Grail with Michael, he doesn't precisely understand what Nicodemus could possibly do with it, so he was a bit more sanguine about gambling on it.
It's interesting, here, that the 'gospel of Nicodemus' is the first that goes into detail on the whole Longinus angle.
The myths surrounding the Lance of Longinus (assuming that's what it is, and I've stated previously that the description is a very close approximation of how you would describe hastae) don't indicate that they make you invulnerable, but unbeatable, a slight but significant distinction. The Spear of Destiny doesn't have the same effect as the Noose. The myths surrounding it—that Charlemagne slept within reach of it, and credited it for something like fifty military victories, or that Hitler seized it in the 1938 Anschluss, when Germany annexed Austria; the legend goes that he went straight to Vienna and took possession of it after seeing it as a young man and feeling the "pull of destiny." Basically, the legend goes that as long as Hitler held it, he wouldn't lose, and that when Patton seized control of "several religious artifacts," Hitler lost, and promptly killed himself. The legends also say that losing possession of the Spear means you die, and that Patton had shipped out the religious artifacts back to the States, and was promptly killed in a car accident on base. (This is based on spotty accounts that have been sensationalized greatly over the past sixty years; there's really no evidence that Hitler had it. A man named Trevor Ravenscroft wrote a book about Hitler and the Spear in the seventies as a way to explain how a talentless Austrian painter could have become one of histories greatest monsters. His source was "a friend," which should tell you everything you need to know.)
Basically, the myths indicate that the Lance of Longinus make you a badass conqueror as long as you have it, but the second you lose it, you pay the price. The whole invulnerability thing was popularized by movies like Constantine (which is still a favorite of mine—I think it's urban fantasy done right, and couldn't have been more disappointed in the show).
Anyway, something that fits the myths surrounding the Spear of Destiny would be invaluable to Nic's long-term plans; they'd all work out how he intended. (Also worth noting that the moment Dresden picks it up, all of his plans work out extraordinarily well.) Speaking of which, what happens to the "leaf-shaped blade" during the fight at the Carpenters'? Does Butters take it when he picks up Harry's duster? Cuz that would explain some things...
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Anyway, something that fits the myths surrounding the Spear of Destiny would be invaluable to Nic's long-term plans; they'd all work out how he intended. (Also worth noting that the moment Dresden picks it up, all of his plans work out extraordinarily well.) Speaking of which, what happens to the "leaf-shaped blade" during the fight at the Carpenters'? Does Butters take it when he picks up Harry's duster? Cuz that would explain some things...
I pointed out the same thing in a thread a while ago (that Harry had it for the last bits of the Hades part of the book and thus couldn't lose), but I think he gives them all to Michael before heading to the Carpenter house, doesn't he?
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I pointed out the same thing in a thread a while ago (that Harry had it for the last bits of the Hades part of the book and thus couldn't lose), but I think he gives them all to Michael before heading to the Carpenter house, doesn't he?
Great minds think alike. I'm not sure about the disposition of the remaining artifacts vis-a-vis Casa di Carpenter. I'll probably check at some point this weekend if nobody else does it for me, because I'm feeling particularly lazy at the moment.
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I don't think that Mab not telling Harry was a test. You don't test someone like that over something so serious because it's no longer a test, it's real. My guess is either she didn't see a reason to tell him, or even him knowing would be worse than not knowing, or part of the deal with Nicodemus meant she could not tell Harry the nature of the artifacts.
You are forgetting what Hades told Harry, the process of inquiring the artifacts/weapons is a test... As in only the strongest and smartest is good enough to end up with them, this is the safe guard.. There are no cheat sheets, for the war to come Mab wants her Knight to be the smartest and the brightest and holding the weapons.. Nick thinks he is the smartest and the strongest, so he thinks he is being clever just asking for the Grail, figuring he will then easily get the rest of the artifacts.. Mab is gambling that Harry is the smartest and the strongest, so he will end up with the weapons, and if not, he dies, she looks for another Knight... Nic loses because if Harry fails he isn't going to get the weapons.. If Nic really was the smartest and the strongest he wouldn't have needed to call in the favor in the first place to use Mab's Knight.
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You are forgetting what Hades told Harry, the process of inquiring the artifacts/weapons is a test... As in only the strongest and smartest is good enough to end up with them, this is the safe guard.. There are no cheat sheets, for the war to come Mab wants her Knight to be the smartest and the brightest and holding the weapons.. Nick thinks he is the smartest and the strongest, so he thinks he is being clever just asking for the Grail, figuring he will then easily get the rest of the artifacts.. Mab is gambling that Harry is the smartest and the strongest, so he will end up with the weapons, and if not, he dies, she looks for another Knight... Nic loses because if Harry fails he isn't going to get the weapons.. If Nic really was the smartest and the strongest he wouldn't have needed to call in the favor in the first place to use Mab's Knight.
Mab testing Harry is implying she does not believe him capable yet... I believe she sent him on this mission (setting up Nicodemus to make the attempt) because she believed he would succeed, and get her revenge, not as a test. It was clear by the end of the book she set up Nicodemus to get revenge. I don't see Mab attempting revenge lightly. If she's gonna try, she plans on winning. So again, not a test.
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Mab testing Harry is implying she does not believe him capable yet... I believe she sent him on this mission (setting up Nicodemus to make the attempt) because she believed he would succeed, and get her revenge, not as a test. It was clear by the end of the book she set up Nicodemus to get revenge. I don't see Mab attempting revenge lightly. If she's gonna try, she plans on winning. So again, not a test.
She would get her revenge in any case, even if Harry failed to get the weapons, simply because her object was to break Nic which she did.'
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She would get her revenge in any case, even if Harry failed to get the weapons, simply because her object was to break Nic which she did.'
If Harry had failed Nic's daughter would not have been sacrificed because the ice test was before the human sacrifice. Nicodemus would have been upset but Harry Dresden would have been dead (a big plus for Nicodemus), and Mab would have still owed him a favor + interest for her failure to keep her end of the bargain.
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Fail to get past the ice trap, or fail to stop Nic from getting the weapons?
Because Harry could have succeeded at the former and still failed at the latter.
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If Harry had failed Nic's daughter would not have been sacrificed because the ice test was before the human sacrifice. Nicodemus would have been upset but Harry Dresden would have been dead (a big plus for Nicodemus), and Mab would have still owed him a favor + interest for her failure to keep her end of the bargain.
She did keep her end, not her fault that her Knight failed..
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I think nick wants to act as second coming of Christ with him as the Christ which makes major portion of the globe under his power since the event is big enough that pope imminently giving him the seat of biggest power he can get. add some old school mind control and nick has the world with non of the bigger supernatural powers can reach him. he just achieve the promised kingdom of most holly books. he is in the top of the world. thanks to Hades harry has the blade that can kill him (the myths kinda say spear did make the killing blow.) so his big plan i think complete the set then forge them as one item of ultimate power.
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She did keep her end, not her fault that her Knight failed..
Still doesn't change that the revenge was his daughter dying which would not have happened if Harry had failed.
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Still doesn't change that the revenge was his daughter dying which would not have happened if Harry had failed.
That was what Tessa thought. But I think she was wrong.
I think Nicodemus had the Genoskwa as backup for Harry for the ice gate, with the coin he had not that much difficulty in following Harry through that gate until Harry started to play dirty. And that was after Grey had mutilated him.
And Hannah with Lasciel was the other backup for Harry. That was why he still tried to kill Harry even after he had closed the gate, Nicodemus had backup for that as well.
So I think that even if Harry had failed with the ice gate the Genoskwa would have handled it and after that Deirdre would still have died. Nicodemus is too experienced not to have a backup plan for Harry.
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I'd have to agree, Nicodemus is not the sort of guy to go into a situation with only one plan to win if he had any choice in the matter.
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A main plan, a back-up plan and an ace-in-the-hole plan, like Merlin. :)
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I'd have to agree, Nicodemus is not the sort of guy to go into a situation with only one plan to win if he had any choice in the matter.
Yup and he'd also know why the artifacts were so hard to get to, he always thinks he is the smartest and his spy is everywhere. However he underestimated both Mab, who blocked Anduriel at Mac's bar, and Harry, who realized that the relics were weapons and pocketed them for himself for later study.
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A main plan, a back-up plan and an ace-in-the-hole plan, like Merlin. :)
Except for the gate of blood. Nicodemus did not even try something else first which tells us a lot.
Anduriel wanted him to kill his daughter, he blocked all alternative ideas like recruiting a necromancer or a spiritual being or trying a near death/out of body experience.
He did not even try. Anduriel had his soul completely and this sealed it.
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I'd have to agree, Nicodemus is not the sort of guy to go into a situation with only one plan to win if he had any choice in the matter.
Where was his backup plan for the fire master? He didn't appear to have one. I don't think anyone but Harry could have made it through the ice challenge because it was designed that way, and as we could see Hades was aware of everything going on. Nic's backup plan was that 2 people Harry wasn't aware of had Coins.
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Anduriel wanted him to kill his daughter, he blocked all alternative ideas like recruiting a necromancer or a spiritual being or trying a near death/out of body experience.
He did not even try. Anduriel had his soul completely and this sealed it.
I'll use this to support the theory that the other side cheated and compromised Nic's free will which will allow Nic a 2nd chance, perhaps a new shot say at having a redo back in the past at having a new life, a new child. Say, Nic fills the shoes of one Malcolm Dresden :)
That was a WAG of mine I titled "My Dad Nick" way back when. So, Harry's father was a Denarian who was redeemed perhaps becoming a Knight of the Cross for a short time before he got his second chance at life in a new time, etc. Malcolm has experience with swords, etc...
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Anduriel wanted him to kill his daughter, he blocked all alternative ideas like recruiting a necromancer or a spiritual being or trying a near death/out of body experience.
He did not even try. Anduriel had his soul completely and this sealed it.
I'm not considering that aspect at the moment. I'm disagreeing with the statement that this was a test from Mab for Harry. I saw it as the real deal, a true mission, not just another test.
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Those weren't my words. I was quoting another and for some reason Edge doesn't allow me to format so I had to change to Chrome.
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Those weren't my words. I was quoting another and for some reason Edge doesn't allow me to format so I had to change to Chrome.
lol oh ok
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Arjan said it though.
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I would say that we say a more aggressive Anduriel than in the previous two encounters. Desperation causes aggression.
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I would say that we say a more aggressive Anduriel than in the previous two encounters. Desperation causes aggression.
As does constantly being thwarted by a pesky youngling of a Wizard.
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A main plan, a back-up plan and an ace-in-the-hole plan, like Merlin. :)
Shhhhh. Lets not start down the Nic = Merlin after being reborn/redeemed etc rabbit hole.
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Shhhhh. Lets not start down the Nic = Merlin after being reborn/redeemed etc rabbit hole.
Nic = Merlin = Cowl ;D
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Nic = Merlin = Cowl ;D
Now the Nic=Cowl thing was one path I had to go down after the whole Deidre thinking she's saving the world thing. Nic can after all use magic, he seems to choose to avoid it actively though.
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I heard the Shhhhh, but have no fear I'd never go down that rabbit hole. I'm more inclined to go down hole with Nic=Malcolm after being reborn/redeemed.
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Now the Nic=Cowl thing was one path I had to go down after the whole Deidre thinking she's saving the world thing. Nic can after all use magic, he seems to choose to avoid it actively though.
That shows you how comitted he is to keep his persona separated.
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Actually I thought the same thing about nic and cowl once when I saw both fly in similar manner. There may have been other similarities too.
I've also wondered if perhaps cowl is white court vampire. He has kumori coming over to him in similar way that Justine goes to Thomas. It's like both cowl and Thomas have a similar control over their sidekick.
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Actually I thought the same thing about nic and cowl once when I saw both fly in similar manner. There may have been other similarities too.
I've also wondered if perhaps cowl is white court vampire. He has kumori coming over to him in similar way that Justine goes to Thomas. It's like both cowl and Thomas have a similar control over their sidekick.
I don't recall Cowl flying. When did that happen.
As to Cowl being a Wampire ... who? It's not Thomas, or Lord Raith since they were both in the Deeps when Cowl was ... elsewhere though a gateway. I don't believe it could be Madrigal, since he's dead now.
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Cowl flew during White Knight in the Deeps I believe.
I was thinking Cowl was a time traveling Lord Raith, Kumori=Maggie Sr. or something like that at the time, but that is more complicated than necessary. We know that Cowl has extensive cuts on his arms, etc which doesn't really fit with a White Court vampire who we know can heal.
But, there is a parallel with how Justine anticipates Thomas then 'glides' over to Thomas, and Kumori and Cowl. That said, I'm sure the white court doesn't have a monopoly on said anticipation, mental commands, and silent walking over to master, etc. Nor is there a faction that has a monopoly on flight.
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Cowl never left his portal, He manifested a fiery birdlike creature that flew.
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I thought he jumped atop it, going after Harry.
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I thought he jumped atop it, going after Harry.
:o I.... don't think so? Otherwise he'd have been inside the deeps with the bomb right? He sent the closing to Harry's portal then zipped up his own I believe.
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I don't think a mere bomb would have killed him. I still remember him on the pteradactylish bird flying either after Harry or to save what's his name.
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I think I may have to disagree about the flying fire-dino. I don't think that Cowl left the safety of the space-rip.
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I got to reread it then.
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I got to reread it then.
I mean, hey, i'd love it if'n I've just been reading it wrong, because it would support my own theory it's a dark version of Harry and Harry is simply another version of Nicodemus(vice versa, whatever). So let me know. But I think he was the hatefilled presence Harry felt and he never actually saw Cowl in the deeps. They talk about later how 'he can't be certain' but 'I am'.
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You guys are right.
He launched an "offspring of a pterodactyl and a comet came hurtling out of the darkness at the far end of the cavern. My eyes had adjusted enough to see a dim oval of reddish light that outlined a heavily cloaked figure--Cowl, standing in his own gate.
Master! Vittorio cried, his voice slurred.
"Look Out." I screamed, and thrashed behind me with my arm as I ducked and lurched ot one side, trying to sweep Lara out of the flying thing's paths I did. It missed us by inches, but we got out of the way.
Then, on second pass:
Lara dumped me at the mouth of the tunnel, and I took a couple of steps back in, checking the smooth tunnel walls as I shook out my shield bracelet. That demonic flying thing of Cowl's banked around for another pass.
I still say it's possible for Cowl to ride the thingy if he wanted to, but it didn't happen like I had thought it did. We didn't see exactly in the text what happened when the flying thing banked around for another pass, other than that mention. It could be possible that Cowl sent it to quickly fetch Vittoro, Cowl hopped onto it to get to and protect Vittoro, or it plainly went in attack mode for another pass. There is no mention of it after that last sentence and the bombs explode some few seconds later.
It's weird that Cowl didn't do more to inject himself in that fight than he already did with bringing in the SuperGhouls, etc.
Now, to tie the Deeps in with my main theories.
Assuming my theories are true regarding Murphy/Mab and Marcone descending from Harry and Murphy, then Cowl at that point had an operation going on in the Deeps that could perhaps unintentionally wipe-out Murphy, Marcone, and Harry all in one fell swoop thereby sparking a series of temporal instabilities that could/would have enormous feedbacks on reality. However, it the theories are true, then there must also be great inertia in preserving said 'history' from being tampered with. This is my idea of what Team Bad is trying to do, Cowl and Outsiders are trying to undo Murphy as Mab. And, they aren't just attacking in one time to do it, nor in just one reality.
I do realize though that the main assault was placing Vittoro on the throne or perhaps freeing Lord Raith or something similar.
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The main goal, in my opinion, was to move the contagion contained in Lord Raith into another by having him fed upon. Lara's getting scary for a reason.
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I am guessing that Cowl was siding on caution when dealing with madman Harry.