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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Tinfoil hat on February 06, 2023, 11:57:47 AM
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How informed are the SC about the world
In BG when Mab mentions the Outer Gates, he notices that not everyone understands what is happening. He also mentions that the members of the SC seem to get it. When discussing the armor Enthiu is wearing the others looks to them for advice. In PG the Merlin seems to know enough about the swords.
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Well, the Senior Council is tasked with protecting humanity from magical abuse. It's kind of their mission statement. So, given that, they should be briefed on all the major magical shenanigans going on in the world. Also, a key part of Senior Council is senior. These are some of the oldest and most powerful wizards around. They have to have forgotten more things than their apprentices know. Enough leaked secrets and much necessarily shared knowledge has to accumulated among them to give them all at least a general look at what's going on. And they each know more about their special interests. I'd say that the ingrained institutional arrogance, lack of unity and risk aversion is the only thing holding them back.
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Wizards thrive on secrets... finding out others' and keeping their own. What makes a wizard really dangerous is their ability to discover a secret weakness, and then (with prep) exploit it. So, they know a lot.
But they don't share well.
WoJ says that -- collectively -- the SC has all the info they need to understand what's going on, who the secret player(s) is(are)... but they aren't sharing. Without pooling their info, each wizard has only an incomplete and inadequate picture of the situation.
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So, given that, they should be briefed on all the major magical shenanigans going on in the world.
And yet, Ancient Mai didn't seem to be aware of what Demonreach really is, for one example.
(I suppose her scenes on the island might be read as having been dissembling to not speak about it in front of Harry and the other Wardens who aren't cleared to know ... but Harry suddenly acting weirdly confident on that particular ground should have been an excellent reason for someone who understands what the island is and had tried to sentence him to death before to absolutely not step on its ground.)
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And yet, Ancient Mai didn't seem to be aware of what Demonreach really is, for one example.
(I suppose her scenes on the island might be read as having been dissembling to not speak about it in front of Harry and the other Wardens who aren't cleared to know ... but Harry suddenly acting weirdly confident on that particular ground should have been an excellent reason for someone who understands what the island is and had tried to sentence him to death before to absolutely not step on its ground.)
To me, Demonreach and knowledge about it are the largest plot holes in the Dresdenverse.
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... but Harry suddenly acting weirdly confident on that particular ground should have been an excellent reason for someone who understands what the island is and had tried to sentence him to death before to absolutely not step on its ground.)
It could simply have been a calculated risk, taken in extremis, relying upon several factors to keep her safe:
* Harry wanting to remain in good standing with the White Council, & her own status as a SC member
* Harry's relative inexperience (as a wizard, and with the bond to the island so new)
* Some (unknown) defensive/escape magic of her own, that might keep her safe long enough to open a Way off the island
* Other as-yet-unrevealed shenanigans.
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Ancient Mai is depicted as being smart, and old. If itd true that kemmeler was a previous warden of demonreach. The SC might have studied up on the island and knew its capabilities. Harry as powerful has he is still a child by SC standards. Not even a teenager. They may believe they can take him. Think of the people they sent. Veteran wardens, the blackstaff, and the expect on loci. Sure we are told they are there for Morgan. Plus they weren't aware he was bonded to the island.
They seem to realise what happened pretty quickly. Once harry starts talking
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The SC might have studied up on the island and knew its capabilities. Harry as powerful has he is still a child by SC standards. Not even a teenager. They may believe they can take him. ...
They seem to realise what happened pretty quickly. Once harry starts talking
He was acting like he could take the entire delegation if he had to even on the dock. He thought it was a bluff because he didn't realize he could command Alfred to grab everybody, and the narrative is pretty clear that Eb read it that way, but then Eb went ahead and pretty much backed his play by acting to the others like Harry was someone to avoid throwing down with. That should have made Mai even more suspicious about why he's suddenly that powerful in that place. Allow him to get out of their sight once the fighting started after the way he'd been acting like he could take them all was monumentally risky, if she knew he could have them all snatched up and taken below with a command to the spirit.
She probably does know something about the island from their wars with Kemmler. But if Mai had been aware that "take them all below" was a capability open to the Warden, and connected Harry's confidence to taking up that mantle, I'd have expected her to shoot him in the back the moment he bolted.
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He was acting like he could take the entire delegation if he had to even on the dock. He thought it was a bluff because he didn't realize he could command Alfred to grab everybody, and the narrative is pretty clear that Eb read it that way, but then Eb went ahead and pretty much backed his play by acting to the others like Harry was someone to avoid throwing down with. That should have made Mai even more suspicious about why he's suddenly that powerful in that place. Allow him to get out of their sight once the fighting started after the way he'd been acting like he could take them all was monumentally risky, if she knew he could have them all snatched up and taken below with a command to the spirit.
She probably does know something about the island from their wars with Kemmler. But if Mai had been aware that "take them all below" was a capability open to the Warden, and connected Harry's confidence to taking up that mantle, I'd have expected her to shoot him in the back the moment he bolted.
Eb can just be being honest - if Mai sends the Wardens maybe Harry seriously injures or even kills one before they subdue him. Harry might not be a threat to Mai, and isn't one to him, but even the spiders kill a Warden on the island. Eb is the kind to be soliticious of the welfare of the Wardens. He won't treat them as cannon fodder
We don't know that Alfred can "take them all below" at once. Alfred might have to do them individually. If you have 25 WWI era tanks rolling on your position, and you can call one modern one - well, none of the WWI tanks could damage the modern one, which can destroy them all - but he has to engage one at a time - they can overrun your position while Supertank kills them.
and Harry's no child. He's been a regional commander of the wardens. At a major summit, he was trusted in security. He's not SC, but he's no rookie either.
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We don't know that Alfred can "take them all below" at once. Alfred might have to do them individually. If you have 25 WWI era tanks rolling on your position, and you can call one modern one - well, none of the WWI tanks could damage the modern one, which can destroy them all - but he has to engage one at a time - they can overrun your position while Supertank kills them.
It isn't just Alfred though, Harry as Warden of the island can turn the whole place into a nightmare.
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It isn't just Alfred though, Harry as Warden of the island can turn the whole place into a nightmare.
We don't actually know what sorts of low/mid powered "mass" defenses the island has, or how much of it can simultaneously-target multiple opponents. Human minds can only encompass a few at a time, so the island would need to target independently... and do it *fast,* because each and every warden there could likely launch a fatal or disabling attack within a split-second (because that's the speed they need to be, at the level they're working -- if it takes you a whole second vs. a blampire, you're already dead and it's moved on to another target).
That being said... I'm pretty sure this occurred to O.G. Merlin, and he wouldn't have left such a gaping hole in the island defenses.
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We don't actually know what sorts of low/mid powered "mass" defenses the island has, or how much of it can simultaneously-target multiple opponents. Human minds can only encompass a few at a time, so the island would need to target independently... and do it *fast,* because each and every warden there could likely launch a fatal or disabling attack within a split-second (because that's the speed they need to be, at the level they're working -- if it takes you a whole second vs. a blampire, you're already dead and it's moved on to another target).
That being said... I'm pretty sure this occurred to O.G. Merlin, and he wouldn't have left such a gaping hole in the island defenses.
But do the defenses extend to Harry? Or just the cell block. And how many of the SC realized Harry had made the link. Even Rashid didn't know until Harry told him to check
and bad information can be worse than none. Luccio thought Ivy was on a level with the Summer and Winter Ladies. Harry pretty much says "More Mab or Titania". The wizards had her way underpowered. And missed 90% of Mavb's army, because it is at the gates. And Rashid never corrected that
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We don't actually know what sorts of low/mid powered "mass" defenses the island has, or how much of it can simultaneously-target multiple opponents. Human minds can only encompass a few at a time, so the island would need to target independently... and do it *fast,* because each and every warden there could likely launch a fatal or disabling attack within a split-second (because that's the speed they need to be, at the level they're working -- if it takes you a whole second vs. a blampire, you're already dead and it's moved on to another target).
That being said... I'm pretty sure this occurred to O.G. Merlin, and he wouldn't have left such a gaping hole in the island defenses.
Alfred has the capacity for multiple attacks, the Warden just needs to set him up for the correct mode and let him run with his intellectus proving further information in real time.
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We don't actually know what sorts of low/mid powered "mass" defenses the island has, or how much of it can simultaneously-target multiple opponents. Human minds can only encompass a few at a time, so the island would need to target independently... and do it *fast,* because each and every warden there could likely launch a fatal or disabling attack within a split-second (because that's the speed they need to be, at the level they're working -- if it takes you a whole second vs. a blampire, you're already dead and it's moved on to another target).
That being said... I'm pretty sure this occurred to O.G. Merlin, and he wouldn't have left such a gaping hole in the island defenses.
Remember in Peace Talks after Harry brought Thomas to the island? Lara and her Valkyrie bodyguard, [sorry at five in the morning with no coffee I cannot remember her name] couldn't come close to him because the island buried Lara in mud and tossed the other back into the lake. It only allowed anyone on the island at the end of Battle Ground because Harry needed medical attention.
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But do the defenses extend to Harry? Or just the cell block.
Mostly, it depends.
The island seems to have limited initiative, and most of the high-powered defenses need the Warden to activate them.
Harry at Skin Game (after an extended period exploring the island and its powers) is a very-different Warden than Harry at Turn Coat (after he did the Sanctum invocation)... IIRC, TC-Harry didn't even understand that he was the "Warden" of a "Prison!"
So, the Warden is a key component of the island's defenses.
It'd be kind of silly to leave the Warden undefended, or without the extra defenses the Island could provide. Harry thought he was bluffing; the SC-members & Wardens in Turn Coat... and he was bluffing them, in that he was largely ignorant of all that power; he was just relying on the advantage of the Intellectus (and likely some halfassed "just in case" ideas about tapping the ley lines).
SG-Harry wouldn't have been bluffing ... on the island, it's likely he really could have taken a bunch of Warden hardcases and SC members, all at once.
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The island seems to have limited initiative, and most of the high-powered defenses need the Warden to activate them.
Very true, before Harry became it's Warden, the island appeared to rely on psychic attacks on would be human inhabitants. That is why the attempts to inhabit it failed, however we have no clue as to how vulnerable the island was to non-human and supernatural forces. It does need a Warden to fully implement all defenses, remember Alfred's great relief to have a Warden again. Why? Because there are defenses that it cannot handle on it's own. These defenses apparently are complex, it took Harry a whole year to learn them, at a time when he basically had no other tasks while he was isolated on the island before Skin Game. Merlin's logic as to why he set up the island's defenses like this in the first place, given it's inmates, has yet to be revealed.
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... These defenses apparently are complex, it took Harry a whole year to learn them, at a time when he basically had no other tasks while he was isolated on the island before Skin Game ...
I thought he was doing a few other things... didn't he use wood from the island to make a new staff?
Merlin's logic as to why he set up the island's defenses like this in the first place, given it's inmates, has yet to be revealed.
I think that you need a living person to make intelligent, intuitive decisions, to be adaptable.
A spell is a relatively fixed thing; anything nailed down that way is unable to adjust or adapt. Sooner or later the BadGuys(tm) would figure out a weakness to exploit.
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Mostly, it depends.
SG-Harry wouldn't have been bluffing ... on the island, it's likely he really could have taken a bunch of Warden hardcases and SC members, all at once.
If they came after him one at a time, like a Bruce Lee movie, sure. Alfred could take out the whole White council. But can he target multiple targets at once? We don't really know that. When he fought Lara and Freydis on the island, he didn't ever target both at the same time. He bound Lara in the grass. Then he swatted Freydis with a tree. Lara pulled free, Harry put her in quicksand. Freydis came on, Harry sank her too. One at a time. The hardcases may not be able to hurt Alfred, but they could Harry. Alfred can protect him against any - but all? We don't know yet
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If they came after him one at a time, like a Bruce Lee movie, sure. Alfred could take out the whole White council. But can he target multiple targets at once? We don't really know that. When he fought Lara and Freydis on the island, he didn't ever target both at the same time. He bound Lara in the grass. Then he swatted Freydis with a tree. Lara pulled free, Harry put her in quicksand. Freydis came on, Harry sank her too. One at a time. The hardcases may not be able to hurt Alfred, but they could Harry. Alfred can protect him against any - but all? We don't know yet
As things stand now, I think we do: Harry stated as simple fact that -- with the island's defenses on-tap -- he could have shut down the entire Outsider-assault on the island, without allies or other assistance; and that was a massive assault with multiple entities involved (including one of the Walkers).
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As things stand now, I think we do: Harry stated as simple fact that -- with the island's defenses on-tap -- he could have shut down the entire Outsider-assault on the island, without allies or other assistance; and that was a massive assault with multiple entities involved (including one of the Walkers).
and we know that isn't simply a keep-out dome like the one Molly used on the island already? Could be an offshoot of that research - Harry does shields well,
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and we know that isn't simply a keep-out dome like the one Molly used on the island already? Could be an offshoot of that research - Harry does shields well,
yeah...NO. It's the island's defenses, not derived from anything of Harry's or Molly's. Harry was very specific about that near the beginning of Skin Game (reviewing his options as he went down to meet Mab on the dock).
I suppose it *could* be a "simple keep-out dome" -- there were no details -- but Harry used the term "defenses" (implying an array of methods & tools) rather than saying "shield" or "ward" or the like.
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yeah...NO. It's the island's defenses, not derived from anything of Harry's or Molly's. Harry was very specific about that near the beginning of Skin Game (reviewing his options as he went down to meet Mab on the dock).
I suppose it *could* be a "simple keep-out dome" -- there were no details -- but Harry used the term "defenses" (implying an array of methods & tools) rather than saying "shield" or "ward" or the like.
I agree with that, I also think that full array of defenses is known only to Alfred and it's Warden.
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I agree with that, I also think that full array of defenses is known only to Alfred and the warden
Not sure, the warden does. Alferd seems to be able to keep things from harry. Harry realizes this at the end of BG
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I agree with that, I also think that full array of defenses is known only to Alfred and the warden
Not sure, the warden does. Alferd seems to be able to keep things from harry. Harry realizes this at the end of BG
But not defenses..
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yeah...NO. It's the island's defenses, not derived from anything of Harry's or Molly's. Harry was very specific about that near the beginning of Skin Game (reviewing his options as he went down to meet Mab on the dock).
I suppose it *could* be a "simple keep-out dome" -- there were no details -- but Harry used the term "defenses" (implying an array of methods & tools) rather than saying "shield" or "ward" or the like.
If you set your defense and they can't break it, there's no rush to target multiple individuals at once. Area effects work.
If you can dome out to the shore, the magic users are out over water. That doesn't help them. If you can, have the equivalent of murder holes to attack out. The magical equivalent of mines released. Greek fire. If not for the question of suborning will - maybe some of the prisoners are aquatic. Fight for me, maybe get a parole. Claymores on the land - how would the fae react to the BBs? layered defenses. But when Harry faced the SC - he was right in front of them, and they were within these perimeter defenses. You let them in close, harder to defend. They get close, even some guy with only half of one hand can set a booby trap and almost get you.
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Just the abilities he demonstrated in PT would have been enough to stave off the Senior Council and Wardens.
Being instantly buried 3 feet under the ground would probably take out most of the Wardens and would have slowed all but EB and LtW severely. He could then take them out using hit and run tactics because he'd always know their exact locations while they would have to search for him though actively hostile terrain.
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Just the abilities he demonstrated in PT would have been enough to stave off the Senior Council and Wardens.
Being instantly buried 3 feet under the ground would probably take out most of the Wardens and would have slowed all but EB and LtW severely. He could then take them out using hit and run tactics because he'd always know their exact locations while they would have to search for him though actively hostile terrain.
That was against two who, in open combat, he beats easily even in Chicago. Lara lost it. Whamps are not someone who can attack a wizard at a distance and close to hand to hand. Being on Demonreach meant he could do it casually, and subdue them without hurting them. And two, not 7 or 8, all more powerful than those two. If he attacks the Wardens, LtW and Eb open up, and who knows what Mai may be able to do? And the sinking in the ground - why do we assume LtW is the only shapeshifter? And it would only take one Warden to escape, then when you are against LtW and Eb, both better than you - they get you. Maybe he could face off against them - though the Blackstaff, I don't know. But far from proven.
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That was against two who, in open combat, he beats easily even in Chicago. Lara lost it. Whamps are not someone who can attack a wizard at a distance and close to hand to hand. Being on Demonreach meant he could do it casually, and subdue them without hurting them. And two, not 7 or 8, all more powerful than those two. If he attacks the Wardens, LtW and Eb open up, and who knows what Mai may be able to do? And the sinking in the ground - why do we assume LtW is the only shapeshifter? And it would only take one Warden to escape, then when you are against LtW and Eb, both better than you - they get you. Maybe he could face off against them - though the Blackstaff, I don't know. But far from proven.
I doubt that it would be as you describe now that there is a Warden in charge and Alfred can fully engage the island defenses. It is a maximum security prison, Merlin designed it most likely to secure it from beings a lot more powerful and bad assed than either Eb or LTW..
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I doubt that it would be as you describe now that there is a Warden in charge and Alfred can fully engage the island defenses. It is a maximum security prison, Merlin designed it most likely to secure it from beings a lot more powerful and bad assed than either Eb or LTW..
It doesn't matter how strong Alfred Demonreach is. You have to pay the Man in this case Harry the Warden.
Ltw and Eb know this, Harry himself knows this. And he has used this to beat things and people stronger than him. Open combat does nnot mean fair. On the island, Eb is the key to the fight. If Harry needed to be put down, im sure Eb can talk him down so the other can stab or him in the back
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ItIt doesn't matter how strong Alfred Demonreach is. You have to pay the Man in this case Harry the Warden.
Ltw and Eb know this, Harry himself knows this. And he has used this to beat things and people stronger than him. Open combat does nnot mean fair. On the island, Eb is the key to the fight. If Harry needed to be put down, im sure Eb can talk him down so the other can stab or him in the back
You are still thinking in terms of a one on one fight, it won't happen like that on the island. Remember in Turn Coat? The island was without a Warden at that point, or just as well be
because Harry had no clue at that point that he now was it's Warden. Anyway, the Senior Council approached it with upmost care, because they were aware of what the island could do even without a Warden. I don't believe it was just that they feared the Way to it.
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That was against two who, in open combat, he beats easily even in Chicago. Lara lost it. Whamps are not someone who can attack a wizard at a distance and close to hand to hand. Being on Demonreach meant he could do it casually, and subdue them without hurting them. And two, not 7 or 8, all more powerful than those two. If he attacks the Wardens, LtW and Eb open up, and who knows what Mai may be able to do? And the sinking in the ground - why do we assume LtW is the only shapeshifter? And it would only take one Warden to escape, then when you are against LtW and Eb, both better than you - they get you. Maybe he could face off against them - though the Blackstaff, I don't know. But far from proven.
You're making this all about Harry and assuming that Alfred is passive once Harry starts the action. Lara and Feydis may be weaker, but their reaction speed is better than any warden's and they were sunk without a chance to dodge. Harry can have Alfred bury them repeatedly as soon as they pop up. And all Harry has to do is break LOS from his attackers. He knows their exact locations and they'd have to search for him in a forest of actively hostile terrain, trees swatting them with bone crushing force and every animal trying to gnaw their faces off. It's far more likely that Harry gets the drop on them rather than vice versa. And that's the least Alfred can do, we don;t know what the bigger defenses actually are.
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You're making this all about Harry and assuming that Alfred is passive once Harry starts the action. Lara and Feydis may be weaker, but their reaction speed is better than any warden's and they were sunk without a chance to dodge. Harry can have Alfred bury them repeatedly as soon as they pop up. And all Harry has to do is break LOS from his attackers. He knows their exact locations and they'd have to search for him in a forest of actively hostile terrain, trees swatting them with bone crushing force and every animal trying to gnaw their faces off. It's far more likely that Harry gets the drop on them rather than vice versa. And that's the least Alfred can do, we don;t know what the bigger defenses actually are.
One of the first things Harry noticed in Turn Coat after he performed the ritual was he suddenly had knowledge of everything going on on the island. That was before he understood what he had done, no one is going to get the drop on him now on the island.
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I doubt that it would be as you describe now that there is a Warden in charge and Alfred can fully engage the island defenses. It is a maximum security prison, Merlin designed it most likely to secure it from beings a lot more powerful and bad assed than either Eb or LTW..
Which is why the simplest response is to slam the door on the well. Smallest area to defend. Let the invaders run nuts on the surface. and if they can break contain, the big bang. But Harry, with the Wardens and Seniors, is not inside that perimeter. Alfred's main duty is preventing escape. Not protecting the warden. He has kept the doors closed without any warden at all, and will likely do so again.
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They approach with caution because they know Alfred can squash any one of them. given time, all of them. They don't want Eb, Ltw, and a Warden to come back to the Merlin and say "Here's Harry's head!" and have him ask "Where is Mai and the other three Wardens?" "Oh, they got squished"
Doesn't mean Harry can beat them.
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You're making this all about Harry and assuming that Alfred is passive once Harry starts the action. Lara and Feydis may be weaker, but their reaction speed is better than any warden's and they were sunk without a chance to dodge. Harry can have Alfred bury them repeatedly as soon as they pop up. And all Harry has to do is break LOS from his attackers. He knows their exact locations and they'd have to search for him in a forest of actively hostile terrain, trees swatting them with bone crushing force and every animal trying to gnaw their faces off. It's far more likely that Harry gets the drop on them rather than vice versa. And that's the least Alfred can do, we don;t know what the bigger defenses actually are.
Alfred has always been somewhat passive when he is not under order. Remember him letting the fae pound on him? He didn't run Harry off. Yes, Lara and Freydis are faster. And they never got Harry into range of their attacks - they were all hand to hand. So Harry had time. If Harry faced off with the Wardens and SC, he is in range at all times. He zaps Eb and LtW, Mai zaps HIM. He has to take 7 out before they can fire.
Break LOS? First, he has to do it. You think that the Blackstaff never had to find an invisible target and deal with that? Body heat. heatbeat. Echolocation. If Joe shapeshifts to a bird - he is not ON the island, he is ABOVE it. All 8 have effective attacks, Lara and Freydis had NONE until they could close. Alfred seems to be one at a time. Why didn't he scoop up Corb and a couple of others when he got Ethniu? Because he does one thing at a time. Yes, harry could fort up, go down into the cell block before the SC arrives, lock the door behind him, and tell Alfred to chase anyone who comes on the island away, and then let harry out. But that is not the same as fighting 3 Senior Council and 4 Wardens likely more on Morgan's level than, say, Carlos.
I think harry could hole up, and set a perimeter and be very hard to root out on the ground, and impossible in the jail, but once they get on the island? haven't seen an ability to take out a lot of targets. Powerful ones, yes, even Mab, but in small numbers.
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I think harry could hole up, and set a perimeter and be very hard to root out on the ground, and impossible in the jail, but once they get on the island? haven't seen an ability to take out a lot of targets. Powerful ones, yes, even Mab, but in small numbers.
Key word here is set foot on the island, once the defenses are set by the Warden, they don't set foot on the island. Alfred isn't passive at all, Freydis was seen as a greater threat than Lara, every time she tried to step onto land, she was flung into the lake.
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If they came after him one at a time, like a Bruce Lee movie, sure. Alfred could take out the whole White council. But can he target multiple targets at once? We don't really know that. When he fought Lara and Freydis on the island, he didn't ever target both at the same time. He bound Lara in the grass. Then he swatted Freydis with a tree. Lara pulled free, Harry put her in quicksand. Freydis came on, Harry sank her too. One at a time. The hardcases may not be able to hurt Alfred, but they could Harry. Alfred can protect him against any - but all? We don't know yet
That was basically just restraining them with the island's natural materials.
Telling Alfred "grab everyone and put them in the cells" is a completely different matter.
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Alfred has always been somewhat passive when he is not under order. Remember him letting the fae pound on him? He didn't run Harry off. Yes, Lara and Freydis are faster. And they never got Harry into range of their attacks - they were all hand to hand. So Harry had time. If Harry faced off with the Wardens and SC, he is in range at all times. He zaps Eb and LtW, Mai zaps HIM. He has to take 7 out before they can fire.
Break LOS? First, he has to do it. You think that the Blackstaff never had to find an invisible target and deal with that? Body heat. heatbeat. Echolocation. If Joe shapeshifts to a bird - he is not ON the island, he is ABOVE it. All 8 have effective attacks, Lara and Freydis had NONE until they could close. Alfred seems to be one at a time. Why didn't he scoop up Corb and a couple of others when he got Ethniu? Because he does one thing at a time. Yes, harry could fort up, go down into the cell block before the SC arrives, lock the door behind him, and tell Alfred to chase anyone who comes on the island away, and then let harry out. But that is not the same as fighting 3 Senior Council and 4 Wardens likely more on Morgan's level than, say, Carlos.
I think harry could hole up, and set a perimeter and be very hard to root out on the ground, and impossible in the jail, but once they get on the island? haven't seen an ability to take out a lot of targets. Powerful ones, yes, even Mab, but in small numbers.
Well, at the end of CD, Harry told Alfred to take Mab below and lock her up if she killed him. So even if it's one at a time, none of the WC or wardens can handle that.
And yes, Harry can break LOS pretty easily. All he needs is for Alfred to whip up a fog or sandstorm while he runs into the forest. Then he plays hide and seek for the few minutes it will take Alfred to grab or squish everyone. And that's the key. Harry doesn't have to fight, he just has to give the order to Alfred and survive till the action ends. And his worse outcome is a draw. The WC has a chance to get him with their first shot but Alfred will still get them just as he would have Mab.
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Well, at the end of CD, Harry told Alfred to take Mab below and lock her up if she killed him. So even if it's one at a time, none of the WC or wardens can handle that.
And keep in mind, this was before Harry had learned anything about the island's defenses. All he needed to do was give the order, and it got Mab's attention because she knew that Alfred could do it.
And yes, Harry can break LOS pretty easily. All he needs is for Alfred to whip up a fog or sandstorm while he runs into the forest. Then he plays hide and seek for the few minutes it will take Alfred to grab or squish everyone. And that's the key. Harry doesn't have to fight, he just has to give the order to Alfred and survive till the action ends. And his worse outcome is a draw. The WC has a chance to get him with their first shot but Alfred will still get them just as he would have Mab.
Harry knows Carlos pretty well, he only needs to order Alfred/island to handle him based on his weaknesses and his strengths. No contest.
hat was basically just restraining them with the island's natural materials.
Now you are woefully underestimating Alfred/island's strength, ever hear of "earth magic?"
Telling Alfred "grab everyone and put them in the cells" is a completely different matter.
No need to do that, it would never get that far, nor is the Senior Council dumb enough to rush the island in the first place.
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... nor is the Senior Council dumb enough to rush the island in the first place.
I think this is generally true, though maybe individual SC members (lookin' at u Cristos!) might be dumb enough...
But nerds -- including Dresden nerds -- seem like moths to a flame, for "who beats..." topics.
At a certain point, raw combat power is just not really relevant anymore, it's not going to carry the day: they all have enough badassery to manage a killshot; it's just a question of who was better-prepared / sneakier / etc... for example, who thought to bring a bagfull of (iron-armed) Little Folk to a Queenfight?
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Key word here is set foot on the island, once the defenses are set by the Warden, they don't set foot on the island. Alfred isn't passive at all, Freydis was seen as a greater threat than Lara, every time she tried to step onto land, she was flung into the lake.
Keeping them off the island is a different matter from when they are ON the island and talking to Harry. Lot easier to prevent a beachhead than to fight one back into the sea. That is why I say the dome approach is plausible.
I think Harry was directing Alfred to toss Freydis - and that she was indeed treated as the LESSER threat - she was treated almost contemptuously. tossed aside as baggage. Harry wanted Lara close to talk to and calm down. She's the dangerous one, and the important one. Harry kills her, there's wergild, he kills Lara, there's war. Though the wizards may say he's rogue, and not one of us any more. Kill him if you wish
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Well, at the end of CD, Harry told Alfred to take Mab below and lock her up if she killed him. So even if it's one at a time, none of the WC or wardens can handle that.
And yes, Harry can break LOS pretty easily. All he needs is for Alfred to whip up a fog or sandstorm while he runs into the forest. Then he plays hide and seek for the few minutes it will take Alfred to grab or squish everyone. And that's the key. Harry doesn't have to fight, he just has to give the order to Alfred and survive till the action ends. And his worse outcome is a draw. The WC has a chance to get him with their first shot but Alfred will still get them just as he would have Mab.
Oh, no doubt Alfred can jail any of them, I said as much already. But do you think the Blackstaff has never had to track someone in fog? HARRY has done that with Arianna. I don't think that alone is enough. His worst outcome is Harry gets killed. his best outcome is likely that Alfred does manage to get them all before they get off the island. By running to the dock or flying off.
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And yes, Harry can break LOS pretty easily. All he needs is for Alfred to whip up a fog or sandstorm while he runs into the forest. Then he plays hide and seek for the few minutes it will take Alfred to ....
Harry knows Carlos pretty well, he only needs to order Alfred/island to handle him based on his weaknesses and his strengths. No contest.
Mira, the LOS here is not Carlos, it's Line Of Sight for the combat. Three letter acronym time. It's Harry trying to effectively vanish
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I think this is generally true, though maybe individual SC members (lookin' at u Cristos!) might be dumb enough...
But nerds -- including Dresden nerds -- seem like moths to a flame, for "who beats..." topics.
At a certain point, raw combat power is just not really relevant anymore, it's not going to carry the day: they all have enough badassery to manage a killshot; it's just a question of who was better-prepared / sneakier / etc... for example, who thought to bring a bagfull of (iron-armed) Little Folk to a Queenfight?
And Harry won that day by having too many attackers to parry. the 7 on the island might not all leave, but one gets Harry in that setting. If they were going to launch a frontal assault from Chicago, no, I think not.
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Oh, no doubt Alfred can jail any of them, I said as much already. But do you think the Blackstaff has never had to track someone in fog? HARRY has done that with Arianna. I don't think that alone is enough. His worst outcome is Harry gets killed. his best outcome is likely that Alfred does manage to get them all before they get off the island. By running to the dock or flying off.
Arianna was in an arena and circling to attack because it was a 1v1 fight. In this scenario, Harry gives Alfred the order and runs away. No staying close, no positioning for an attack, not angling for a better view, he just runs away until Alfred says the job is done. Harry has perfect knowledge of the terrain and can sprint away with no need to watch his footing because of his intellectus. Any WC pursuit won't have these advantages and the terrain will be actively working against them. And all the while, Alfred will be taking them out. Unless they get Harry right at the start of the action, he's going to win. All he has to do is give the order and have Alfred start with Eb. Alfred is going to be doing all the fighting and it has shown to be able to withstand the combined power of both Ladies and the power to take Mab with no prep or binding while on the island.
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Harry knows Carlos pretty well, he only needs to order Alfred/island to handle him based on his weaknesses and his strengths. No contest.
Mira, the LOS here is not Carlos, it's Line Of Sight for the combat. Three letter acronym time. It's Harry trying to effectively vanish
Okay, but easy to get confused because it is also used as a nickname for Carlos. Why this assumption that defense of the island would be one on one at all? It is made pretty clear that
though Harry is dealing with a creature whom he name's Alfred.. Alfred/creature and the island are one and the same.. So whoever attacks the island or is unwelcome on the island by Harry, is fighting the whole island.. And the island I think will use any means necessary to combat the intruder or intruders, all at once.
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Arianna was in an arena and circling to attack because it was a 1v1 fight. In this scenario, Harry gives Alfred the order and runs away. No staying close, no positioning for an attack, not angling for a better view, he just runs away until Alfred says the job is done. Harry has perfect knowledge of the terrain and can sprint away with no need to watch his footing because of his intellectus. Any WC pursuit won't have these advantages and the terrain will be actively working against them. And all the while, Alfred will be taking them out. Unless they get Harry right at the start of the action, he's going to win. All he has to do is give the order and have Alfred start with Eb. Alfred is going to be doing all the fighting and it has shown to be able to withstand the combined power of both Ladies and the power to take Mab with no prep or binding while on the island.
and while he does this LtW, Mai, or a Warden shoots him in the back.
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Okay, but easy to get confused because it is also used as a nickname for Carlos. Why this assumption that defense of the island would be one on one at all? It is made pretty clear that
though Harry is dealing with a creature whom he name's Alfred.. Alfred/creature and the island are one and the same.. So whoever attacks the island or is unwelcome on the island by Harry, is fighting the whole island.. And the island I think will use any means necessary to combat the intruder or intruders, all at once.
Because we have not seen the island or Alfred engage two enemies at once. He's not a rapid fire machine gun, at least that we have seen. He's the Death Star turbolaser, an incredibly devastating shot - but single shot and reload. He alternated between Lara and Freydis. He didn't hit both at the same time.
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and while he does this LtW, Mai, or a Warden shoots him in the back.
They get one shot at Harry, who'll have his shields at maximum plus whatever boost Alfred can provide and then he's gone. I concede that he has to survive their initial attacks, but we've seen Harry do that on multiple occasions. After that, Alfred stomps them while Harry makes himself scarce and uses his intellectus to monitor the proceedings.
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Because we have not seen the island or Alfred engage two enemies at once. He's not a rapid fire machine gun, at least that we have seen. He's the Death Star turbolaser, an incredibly devastating shot - but single shot and reload. He alternated between Lara and Freydis. He didn't hit both at the same time.
Not really, they didn't attack at once together.. Harry hadn't fully applied the defenses against them either. He wanted to try and talk sense to Lara, so the least dangerous means were used on both.
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Not really, they didn't attack at once together.. Harry hadn't fully applied the defenses against them either. He wanted to try and talk sense to Lara, so the least dangerous means were used on both.
They were both still advancing to the attack. Neither was a threat, and Harry had more than enough power to do whatever he wanted, and he chose to simply restrain.
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They were both still advancing to the attack. Neither was a threat, and Harry had more than enough power to do whatever he wanted, and he chose to simply restrain.
So the incident really doesn't reveal what the island could really do if pressed.
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Because we have not seen the island or Alfred engage two enemies at once. He's not a rapid fire machine gun, at least that we have seen. He's the Death Star turbolaser, an incredibly devastating shot - but single shot and reload. He alternated between Lara and Freydis. He didn't hit both at the same time.
Because Harry didn't want them dead just subdued. He used his bare minimum powers. If he had hit them with the powers that he learned of that were capable of stopping the Nemesis beach landing, I think we wouldn't find the pieces without a microscope. That Deathstar turbo-laser is a pretty wide beam compared to a man-sized object though. I think it would constitute an area of effect big enough to handle a small group of humans on a beach.
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In terms of the island's defenses vs. multiple opponents at one time, I think we really don't know. We haven't seen it need to do that.
However, I surmise the island can deal with that -- "ganging up" is a classic tactic, and I cannot imagine the OG Merlin (who designed the defenses) would leave such an obvious, gaping hole.
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So the incident really doesn't reveal what the island could really do if pressed.
Right. We don't KNOW what it can do.
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In terms of the island's defenses vs. multiple opponents at one time, I think we really don't know. We haven't seen it need to do that.
However, I surmise the island can deal with that -- "ganging up" is a classic tactic, and I cannot imagine the OG Merlin (who designed the defenses) would leave such an obvious, gaping hole.
But the plan could be sealing the jail, and then picking them off one by one. If my door is locked and they can't get past Merlin's wards, Alfie can go about squishing people till they are All Gone. No rush
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But the plan could be sealing the jail, and then picking them off one by one. If my door is locked and they can't get past Merlin's wards, Alfie can go about squishing people till they are All Gone. No rush
I could see that.
Trigger the big ward atop the island -- which only lets in things of the island -- and then treat the rest of the island like a meurtrière (murder hole). That would be a very old tactic, I could see it being in Merlin's go-to tactical vernacular.