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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on June 22, 2021, 12:24:32 PM
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But everyone with a smidge of talent who was sleeping at the time was troubled by dreams. The general theme was always the same: dead children. The world in flames. Terror and death spreading across the globe in an unstoppable wave, destroying anything resembling order or civilization.
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It means a bunch of people got a memo that there's an apocalypse coming.
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That Harry pulled the trigger on a global-scale spell that could be prophesized as an event in the Outsider Book of Revelation, causing a vision of what was to come.
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That sounds an awful lot like the vision Lydia had and told Harry about back in Grave Peril. She said she suffered from Casandra Tears and Harry was hesitant to believe her. He asked her what she saw
and her answer was;
"Fire," she whispered. "Wind. I see dark things and a dark war. I see my death coming for me, out of the spirit world. And I see you at the middle of it all. You're the beginning, the end of it. You're the one who can make the path go different ways."
Now that fits what happened at the party, is also fits the war with the Reds, but it can also mean the BAT.
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That Harry pulled the trigger on a global-scale spell that could be prophesized as an event in the Outsider Book of Revelation, causing a vision of what was to come.
I found this while thinking about Harry's two missing minutes. It's weird because of the framing, this is the passage just before this.I don’t remember what happened when the ritual went off. There’s a blank spot in my head about two minutes wide. I had no desire whatsoever to find out what was there.
I speculate that this is what has the Council in an uproar. That what everyone saw in their dreams was of the Destroyer Harry. That it was him that fed enough power to the spell to kill every vampire, everywhere. Or something to that effect, maybe......
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It means a bunch of people got a memo that there's an apocalypse coming.
Maybe that Harry fucked up.... That one action has set in motion something that cannot be stopped, resulting in the apocalypse.. Perhaps this is what the time travel stuff will be about in the end. Stopping this.
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That what everyone saw in their dreams was of the Destroyer Harry. That it was him that fed enough power to the spell to kill every vampire, everywhere. Or something to that effect, maybe......
This does make me ask a question. Because Harry is in fact a Starborn, did this spell gain something extra to it? Some sort of potency that may have hit some Things out there who were tied to the Red Court but wouldn't have been destroyed.
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It means an incredible powerful wave of death magic getting everywhere on earth and a good part of the nevernever. People who are sensitive to such things will notice one way or another.
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Or Harry finally saw the same vision that Lydia had back in Grave Peril.
The world in flames. Lydia; "Fire," she whispered.
Terror and death spreading across the globe in an unstoppable wave, destroying anything resembling order or civilization.
Lydia;
Wind. I see dark things and a dark war. I see my death coming for me, out of the spirit world. And I see you at the middle of it all. You're the beginning, the end of it. You're the one who can make the path go different ways."
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That dream is pretty specific. Unless I have misunderstood what Jim wrote, the curse was meant to kill Eb's bloodline. Not all wizards, everywhere. If the power levels were this high it was like hunting mice with an elephant gun. That makes my WAG generator go off the rails.
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Maybe that Harry fucked up.... That one action has set in motion something that cannot be stopped, resulting in the apocalypse.. Perhaps this is what the time travel stuff will be about in the end. Stopping this.
If it was such a cataclysmic fuckup to use the bloodline curse there wouldn't be so many powers who were just setting him up to do it.
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This has come up multiple times in the books ion different fashions.
I didn't care about that, either. The power felt too good—too strong. I wanted it. I wanted Raith to pay. I wanted him to suffer, screaming, and then die for what he had done to me. And I was strong enough to make it happen. I had the power and the resolve to bring such a tide of magic against him that he would be utterly destroyed. I would lay him low and make him howl for mercy before I tore him apart. He deserved nothing less.
In these cases something else takes over and he can seemingly draw on power that doesn't seem to be his. Maybe it's the Outsiders power, considering that Raith used an outsider to fire his entropy curse.
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That dream is pretty specific. Unless I have misunderstood what Jim wrote, the curse was meant to kill Eb's bloodline. Not all wizards, everywhere. If the power levels were this high it was like hunting mice with an elephant gun. That makes my WAG generator go off the rails.
However, the reversal of that curse did kill off another bloodline, a race of vampires that were dispersed world wide.. So Harry could have heard their cries as they died. You leave out the fact that the originator of the spell was the Red King, that power level was his, magnified by the gods of C.I., not Harry. However it did trigger a horrible vision.. What you quote is from Blood Rites, from an angry injured young wizard who has discovered the murderer of his mother.. That is a nasty quote, he felt that, but it was impotent, he didn't kill a mouse with an elephant gun, his efforts had no effect on Lord Raith..
I think being a star born puts one on a razor's edge, like an archangel or a god, awesome power, that can create as well as destroy. Harry has felt and wielded the power of both hell fire and soul fire, he rejected one, he is still exploring what the other is and it's uses.
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If it was such a cataclysmic fuckup to use the bloodline curse there wouldn't be so many powers who were just setting him up to do it.
I see the battle between the Outside, and Inside like a game of chess. Both sides are so dangerous its like check, move counter check. This may have been a miscalculation on the Insides part. Thought that the destruction of the Red Court was the right call, not realizing it was the Outside setting up a trap.
If Harry had simply saved his daughter, and got out, things would have been ok... But the spell going off, and killing all the Red Court (Not humans but demons) may have triggered something else. I kind of think that so many demons being killed would send a signal into the Never Never, like a homing signal... Or a dinner bell.. Or an alarm clock for something sleeping.
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Various ideas:
1) Harry's shade spent two minutes teleporting everywhere heart-busting vamps.
2) Harry had to power the spell, and the difference between a Destroyer and whatever the alternative is is love vs. hate- and Harry is a man with great capacity for both.
3) Expanding on 2- this is why the archangels helped. Salvation from love using destruction they could support.
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What you quote is from Blood Rites, from an angry injured young wizard who has discovered the murderer of his mother.. That is a nasty quote, he felt that, but it was impotent, he didn't kill a mouse with an elephant gun, his efforts had no effect on Lord Raith..
Interesting hypothetical ... What if Harry was intuiting something correct there? He's stated a couple times that vampire sorcerors and necromancers draw on a different and darker power source than regular wizard life/emotion magic. I wonder if the protection Raith is benefiting from extends to attacks based on dark energy?
Could Margaret's insight in cursing him successfully just have been something like Kumori's philosophy that the cold dark greasy energy source doesn't inherently have to be used for evil ends?
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It easily could, especially as Lord Raith's protection is described in similar terms - if the Outsiders gave him a shield, they might have left a "backdoor" for their own power.
But I'm not sure the dark energy would even have needed to get around the protection directly, just give Harry the power he'd need to do it indirectly.
Harry saw with the keys that Lord Raith isn't immune to magically-caused physical harm, so being telekinetically bashed enough would eventually run him out of healing energy and kill him.
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However, the reversal of that curse did kill off another bloodline, a race of vampires that were dispersed world wide.. So Harry could have heard their cries as they died. You leave out the fact that the originator of the spell was the Red King, that power level was his, magnified by the gods of C.I., not Harry. However it did trigger a horrible vision.. What you quote is from Blood Rites, from an angry injured young wizard who has discovered the murderer of his mother.. That is a nasty quote, he felt that, but it was impotent, he didn't kill a mouse with an elephant gun, his efforts had no effect on Lord Raith..
I think being a star born puts one on a razor's edge, like an archangel or a god, awesome power, that can create as well as destroy. Harry has felt and wielded the power of both hell fire and soul fire, he rejected one, he is still exploring what the other is and it's uses.
Killing a mouse with an elephant gun was about the Red King killing three people with his curse. If you're saying that's what he did then okay. Harry killed thousands.
Harry did nothing in Blood Rites because Eb squeezed his burnt hand and hurt him to break him out of his rage. Precisely the same thing that Butters does to Harry when Murphy dies. Once is coincidence, twice is Jim talking at us. Here's the Oppenheimer quote. Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Killing a mouse with an elephant gun was about the Red King killing three people with his curse. If you're saying that's what he did then okay. Harry killed thousands.
Did anyone say it was okay? I don't remember saying it was okay.. The Red King was going to kill three humans, maybe four, Thomas is also a descendant of Eb, starting off with killing a then six or eight year old child, I don't remember Maggie's exact age... His spell, he originated it, he powered it. Harry killed the youngest vampire, who was Susan before she turned, she wasn't human when he killed her, that blew back the Red King's own curse on him and his descendants, no humans... Those of the half turned died because they had been alive beyond the life span of a human.. Once the vamp half died, they died of old age, the younger half turned were suddenly cured, they were human once more... So I guess you could say when he wiped out a species, Harry also saved hundreds if not thousands of half turned who were doomed at some point to lose control and go all vamp.. I am not here to say that it was okay or not okay, it is a bit more complicated than that statement makes it out as.
arry did nothing in Blood Rites because Eb squeezed his burnt hand and hurt him to break him out of his rage.
He didn't want Harry to do more harm to himself in his injured condition... But honestly, Harry's reaction in his weakened state was perfectly normal.. It was a very human reaction, he was deprived of ever knowing his mother because this asshole murdered her... He has suffered all of his life because of it, yet no justice for Lord Raith as far as he knew at that moment.. And Eb if you remember also told him not even he, the Blackstaff could bring Raith to justice.. Yeah, I'd call that a very normal reaction on Harry's part.. Emotional, yes, out of control, yes, but normal, that is why we need others to bring us back to our senses like Eb did..
And yes, Butters also did it when Murphy died, and yes, it was a totally normal reaction from Harry. What's more, the Sword knew it as well, it gave him a good burn to bring him back, it worked. If Harry was truly evil, it would have cut his arm off.
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When I say okay it means I am okay with your determination of what Jim wrote. What I wrote is me tossing random ideas in the air and seeing if they have legs. It's fairly obvious, here and now, that they don't. I'm okay with that.
Jim however does, this a lot. So he wants to set something up for some future plot device he writes it in early and calls back to it. He does it in Proven Guilty with Maeve and the Cantina scene in Summer Knight for instance. He's called out this irrational anger twice now and keeps throwing in references to a destroyer. And there are those missing two minutes.
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When I say okay it means I am okay with your determination of what Jim wrote. What I wrote is me tossing random ideas in the air and seeing if they have legs. It's fairly obvious, here and now, that they don't. I'm okay with that.
Jim however does, this a lot. So he wants to set something up for some future plot device he writes it in early and calls back to it. He does it in Proven Guilty with Maeve and the Cantina scene in Summer Knight for instance. He's called out this irrational anger twice now and keeps throwing in references to a destroyer. And there are those missing two minutes.
However the examples you sight are examples of rational anger, not irrational anger, in the end, yes, they can make one a destroyer, but sometimes a destroyer is what is needed.
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However the examples you sight are examples of rational anger, not irrational anger, in the end, yes, they can make one a destroyer, but sometimes a destroyer is what is needed.
It does not seem to matter that much whether the anger is rational or irrational. It is about keeping control or loosing it.
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It does not seem to matter that much whether the anger is rational or irrational. It is about keeping control or loosing it.
That too, but that comes with maturity.. But there are times, like when you see the person you love gunned down and killed stupidly after she just saved hundreds of lives, you tend to lose it.. To not lose it in such a moment wouldn't be human.
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Harry in the book is no longer a young man. And killing Rudolph would have been murder. This really isn't debatable. He was going to kill Rudolph with magic just as Lea had suggested Justin was teaching him to do. And this is in the text.
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Harry in the book is no longer a young man. And killing Rudolph would have been murder. This really isn't debatable. He was going to kill Rudolph with magic just as Lea had suggested Justin was teaching him to do. And this is in the text.
No, Harry is no longer a young man, though he is still considered a young wizard. However watching
Rudolph gun down Murphy, who wasn't just his lover, but his friend and back up for almost all of his adult life. In the stress of the moment,it was too much, he lost it, it was a very normal reaction, I don't think it matters much how he tried to kill him, it was just the easiest for him.. Ironic when you think about it, because you could say that Rudolph also lost it, the craziness of watching Murphy kill a giant who had been killing innocents by the hundreds, was too much, it made him insane.. He used the thing in hand that was easiest for him to get to and use... The gun that he kept his trigger finger on, and he used it. In Harry's case, the Sword understood, it burned him to bring him back to himself, then he was ashamed for having lost it. Wonder if anything will bring Rudolph back to reality?
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That too, but that comes with maturity.. But there are times, like when you see the person you love gunned down and killed stupidly after she just saved hundreds of lives, you tend to lose it.. To not lose it in such a moment wouldn't be human.
Quite human but if you ask Uriel about it..
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Well putting aside what I consider normal human behavior for a moment. For the character Harry Dresden, what is Jim saying? Here's how he describes the sword now.
Michael touched the blade of Fidelacchius again, more reverently. “Angels aren’t allowed to interfere with mortals or their free will,” he said. “If you’re right, Harry . . . this blade of light is a direct expression of the will of an angel. It can’t impinge upon the free will of a mortal. It can only fight evil beings who attempt the same.”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 178). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
It burned Harry. Was he doing evil? Not was he having a bad day, where his friends had to restrain him? But where he was prepared to do harm to Butters if he had to to get to Numb Nuts(Rudolph).
Now back to the human race. Most people don't react like this. They are prostrated by grief, it doesn't turn them into raving murderers.
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Now back to the human race. Most people don't react like this. They are prostrated by grief, it doesn't turn them into raving murderers.
No? Grief takes many forms, witnessing a senseless murder one very well might react violently.. In the middle of a battle, adrenaline levels are very high, people do react with anger, especially if they are in the middle of combat at the time. A soldier seeing his or her friend go down, doesn't melt into a puddle of grief, that is for later. Harry didn't turn into a raving murderer, if he had, there was no way anyone could have stopped him short of cutting off his arm and most likely his head as well.
Yes, the Sword did burn Harry to remind him, to bring him back, he was hysterical with grief. The point is, the burn reminded Harry that killing Rudolph was the wrong thing to do.. It sobered Harry up, then he melted into a puddle of grief, briefly. If he was truly evil, none of that would have stopped him.
It can’t impinge upon the free will of a mortal. It can only fight evil beings who attempt the same.”
And it didn't impinge on Harry's free will, it reminded him of his choices, and Harry chose to stop.. It didn't fight an evil being here in Harry, it gave him a choice. If the Sword felt that Harry was evil, it would have lopped his arm off, neither Butters nor Sanya would have forgiven him and held his close in his grief.
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Well putting aside what I consider normal human behavior for a moment. For the character Harry Dresden, what is Jim saying? Here's how he describes the sword now.It burned Harry. Was he doing evil? Not was he having a bad day, where his friends had to restrain him? But where he was prepared to do harm to Butters if he had to to get to Numb Nuts(Rudolph).
Now back to the human race. Most people don't react like this. They are prostrated by grief, it doesn't turn them into raving murderers.
Most reactions by normal human beings are not exactly natural. They are, for good reasons, tempered by the necessity to live in big groups in a well structured society. That necessity is there from the beginning and helps form behavior but can also evaporate fast under the wrong circumstances.
Revenge is a very normal emotion especially in societies where justice is not that well organized. It might be the only way to get some form of justice and it might also necessary to keep your reputation which is all important for the safety of your dependents.
The dresdenverse supernatural world is far closer to early medieval Iceland so there revenge is an important emotion that can save you and yours or doom families in a continuing vendetta.
Harry is sucked into that world.
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This isn't medieval Iceland and Harry wasn't raised there. And I don't think that every few books Harry is suppose to throw a temper tantrum and try to kill somebody. Here's what Harry says in Skin Game when he holds his temper in check.
Michael watched my face closely as we carried her. “What?” I asked. “You aren’t angry,” he said. “That she’s hurt.” “Like hell I’m not,” I said. “It’s coming. After we take care of her. When it’s time.” Michael grunted. “You aren’t more angry than you would be if it was me. Or Butters, here.” I grunted. “She’s not a delicate princess,” I said. “She’s a warrior. Warriors have enemies. Sometimes warriors get hurt.” I felt my jaws clench. “And then their friends even things up.”
Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (pp. 248-249). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Which is different from going berserk. This indicates two very different Harry's. In Battle Ground he's defending Chicago. So he stops, goes nuts, assaults a friend, and tries to murder a fruitcake for being a fruitcake. That isn't a vendetta. I don't know what it's suppose to represent, but it ain't that.
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I was not talking about going berserk and vendetta is what you get if a revenge cycle runs out of control. Just that revenge is a very basic human instinct. It has to be actively suppressed in society to get it under control.
And that control can slip. And Harry is not raised in medieval Iceland but he is continuously moving in such a world. It will influence him.
And wanting to kill the murderer of your lover is not exactly unnatural. It is just something we have mostly learned to suppress and now Harry is under strong influences not to suppress it. In the midst of a battle when a lot of brakes are less functional and people are in a highly emotional state anyway. And do not forget the mantle who really does not understand not killing Rudolph.
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his isn't medieval Iceland and Harry wasn't raised there. And I don't think that every few books Harry is suppose to throw a temper tantrum and try to kill somebody. Here's what Harry says in Skin Game when he holds his temper in check.
No, nor was Harry's reaction premeditated, there is a difference you know? There is also a huge difference between a temper tantrum and Harry's emotional reaction to Murphy's death given the total context that it happened in. He'd been in fight or fight mode for several days leading up to the battle, he was working on little or no rest, plus pressure from all sides. Harry wasn't under any such pressure in Skin Game to begin with, he knew that Murphy wasn't dead. Interesting that Michael admits, himself, he'd have been really pissed.. And yeah, back in the Warrior, Michael was about to beat to death the guy who hurt and kidnapped his kid with a baseball bat.. Harry stopped him, understood and no one that I can recall was accusing Michael of being a cold blooded murderer because his impulse was to kill that guy in the most intimate of ways, beating him to death.. So temper tantrum or an angry distraught father reacting in a fairly normal way?
In Battle Ground he's defending Chicago. So he stops, goes nuts, assaults a friend, and tries to murder a fruitcake for being a fruitcake. That isn't a vendetta. I don't know what it's suppose to represent, but it ain't that.
Assaulting a friend? No, not really, more like he wasn't going to allow anyone to stop him.. Not quite the same, and believe me, been there done that.. Sanya understood that, as did Butters, and they totally forgave him. Harry wasn't being rational in that moment, his friends knew that, but trying to stop someone in that mode can be dangerous, his friends also knew that.
I was not talking about going berserk and vendetta is what you get if a revenge cycle runs out of control. Just that revenge is a very basic human instinct. It has to be actively suppressed in society to get it under control.
And that control can slip. And Harry is not raised in medieval Iceland but he is continuously moving in such a world. It will influence him.
And wanting to kill the murderer of your lover is not exactly unnatural. It is just something we have mostly learned to suppress and now Harry is under strong influences not to suppress it. In the midst of a battle when a lot of brakes are less functional and people are in a highly emotional state anyway. And do not forget the mantle who really does not understand not killing Rudolph.
Exactly, and also note that neither Butters nor Sanya faulted Harry for going after Rudolph, but hit him with the logic that if he successfully killed him, he'd be out of the bigger more important fight. That was the logic they hit him with, that and that justice would take care of Rudolph and it wasn't Harry's place to dish it out.
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@Mira
Jim telegraphs to you that Harry could be something called a destroyer. He retcons Morgan to put across that message and it never occurs to you that there is a reason for these passages?
@Arjan
If my wife were murdered in front of my eyes I don't know that I could move much less contemplate murder.
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@Mira
Jim telegraphs to you that Harry could be something called a destroyer. He retcons Morgan to put across that message and it never occurs to you that there is a reason for these passages?
@Arjan
If my wife were murdered in front of my eyes I don't know that I could move much less contemplate murder.
That is good. That means you are thouroughly civilised. I can not do it either I think but it used to be pretty normal.
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@Mira
Jim telegraphs to you that Harry could be something called a destroyer. He retcons Morgan to put across that message and it never occurs to you that there is a reason for these passages?
@Arjan
If my wife were murdered in front of my eyes I don't know that I could move much less contemplate murder.
I am sorry for your loss, but understand that everyone reacts to violence differently. You were severely shocked by such a horrible thing, you reacted in a normal way for you, that doesn't make the reaction Jim wrote for Harry, abnormal. Myself I went through people much like Harry did to get to my dead son.. If I had to smack someone to do it, I would have, including my husband. Call that assault if you want to, I know now all he wanted to do was spare me the sight, but I didn't want to be spared.
That is good. That means you are thouroughly civilised. I can not do it either I think but it used to be pretty normal.
I think it still is a normal reaction for some people.. When you witness that kind of horror, you react, it may mean that you are frozen in horror, you may scream, you may get very angry and try to get who did it, you may be silent and contemplate revenge, or all of the above, all are very human reactions, and normal for you.. There is no good or bad, that is something one also learns in the grieving process.
Yes, Harry maybe called a destroyer but that doesn't always mean that it is a bad thing.. It is a harsh word, but if he is a destroyer of evil, is that bad?
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It's a Mandela effect, of what would have happened if harry hadn't overturned the spell on the Reds. It's based on
A. Harry is a direct descendant of the source of mortal wizardry
B. Children are magic, birthing and creation might actually be magical in and of itself. So perhaps part of that is left over. Like how they have extra stem cells. In fact, butters would probably say the one is directly correlated to the other..
C. Parallel alt realities and getting glimpses from them is definitely a thing. Isn't it now Woj the various Mabs can communicate if need be?
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It means that there was a very big disturbance in the force and anyone with any kind of midi-chlorian count felt it. ;D
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I wonder if the "dead children" represented many of the sacrifices the Red Court had done to fuel the spell. Some of what peopled saw may have been what magic was used. Dark, evil magic fueled with human sacrifice.
"The general theme was always the same: dead children (The human sacrifices used to power the spell???). The world in flames. Terror and death spreading across the globe in an unstoppable wave, destroying anything resembling order or civilization (The Red Court being destroyed, and not being able to do anything about it????)"
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I wonder if the "dead children" represented many of the sacrifices the Red Court had done to fuel the spell. Some of what peopled saw may have been what magic was used. Dark, evil magic fueled with human sacrifice.
"The general theme was always the same: dead children (The human sacrifices used to power the spell???). The world in flames. Terror and death spreading across the globe in an unstoppable wave, destroying anything resembling order or civilization (The Red Court being destroyed, and not being able to do anything about it????)"
Or a vision of what will be if he doesn't get his act together to defend the world when Nemesis and the Outsiders set up for their final battle.
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Just for the record Mira, my wife is alive and bearing up well.
The symbology in the story is pretty obvious. Harry said he and his spawn would watch the world burn and roast marshmallows. This is Harry the sociopath, prepared to do anything to preserve his child. Make any bargain, commit any act, break any promise. I was just curious if there were anything else to be taken from this.
@groinkick
I don't remember any special thing about the Reds and children.
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Just for the record Mira, my wife is alive and bearing up well.
The symbology in the story is pretty obvious. Harry said he and his spawn would watch the world burn and roast marshmallows. This is Harry the sociopath, prepared to do anything to preserve his child. Make any bargain, commit any act, break any promise. I was just curious if there were anything else to be taken from this.
@groinkick
I don't remember any special thing about the Reds and children.
Glad of that Morris, so shocking to see "wife murdered before my eyes," I missed the "if" part.
Harry isn't a sociopath..
The definition of sociopath according to Websters;
a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.
Lord knows Harry has lots of problems but lack of a conscience isn't one of them. Willing to do anything to save his child doesn't make him one. I think most parents would answer in much the same way.
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Just for the record Mira, my wife is alive and bearing up well.
The symbology in the story is pretty obvious. Harry said he and his spawn would watch the world burn and roast marshmallows. This is Harry the sociopath, prepared to do anything to preserve his child. Make any bargain, commit any act, break any promise. I was just curious if there were anything else to be taken from this.
@groinkick
I don't remember any special thing about the Reds and children.
A sociopath would not go to such lengths to save his daughter. A sociopath would not break his back to save an old lady either. Harry is just a bag of conflicting emotions like most people.
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I'm pretty comfortable with having used that term. When he's angry he lacks empathy or restraint. Jim hit you over the head with that in Battle Ground in the passage where Harry see's what Rudolph see's.
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I'm pretty comfortable with having used that term. When he's angry he lacks empathy or restraint. Jim hit you over the head with that in Battle Ground in the passage where Harry see's what Rudolph see's.
But his lack of empathy isn't consistent nor is his lack of restraint.. He has a temper, when one is pissed it is hard to feel empathy or be restrained, that doesn't make him a sociopath.. In Battle Ground he also feels immediate regret for going after Rudolph and for hurting Sanya and Butters in the process, a sociopath wouldn't feel regret, nor would he care about the pain the people of Chicago are feeling or try to do something about that. Jim also made that quite clear.
And as Arjan points out...
A sociopath would not go to such lengths to save his daughter. A sociopath would not break his back to save an old lady either. Harry is just a bag of conflicting emotions like most people.
Marcone is closer to what a sociopath is, that is what Harry saw back in their soul gaze and it frightened him.
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If not something like this, what is it that you think the destroyer will do? And why are people so afraid of the thing? Why does Jim keep writing these freakouts, where the only way to stop Harry is to hurt him? He did this as early as Grave Peril. Had Lea not been there the three of them would have died.
The fury in me grew. It swelled and burned and I reached out to the fires again. Flames flew out, caught one of the more cowardly of the vampires, huddled at the back, scrabbling to slip his flesh mask back over his squashed bat face. The fire touched him and then twined about him, searing and blackening his skin, then dragging him back, winding and rolling him toward the blaze.
The magic danced in my eyes, my head, my chest, flying wild and out of control. I couldn’t follow everything that happened. More vampires got too close to the flames, and began screaming. Tendrils of fire rose up from the ground and began to slither over the courtyard like serpents. Everything exploded into motion, shadows flashing through the brightness, seeking escape, screaming.
I felt my heart clench in my chest and stop beating. I swayed on my feet, gasping. Michael got to me, Lydia slung over his shoulder in a fireman’s carry. He’d torn his cloak off, and it lay to one side, burning. He dragged my arm across his shoulder, and half carried me down the stairs.
Smoke gathered on us, thick and choking. I coughed and retched, helpless. The magic coursed through me, slower now, a trickle—not because the floodgates had closed, but because I had nothing left to pour out. I hurt. Fire spread out from my heart, my arms and legs clenching and twitching. I couldn’t get a breath, couldn’t think, and I knew, somewhere amidst all that pain, that I was about to die.
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Psychopath and sociopath are not as clear cut psychologically as people expect, it's actually easier to understand in some ways from a brain chemistry perspective. Webster's gives an overly simplistic definition for an extremely complex area. Those kind of definitions are really to help people understand what the word means - particularly those learning the language. They're not really meant to be an ultimate summation or comprehensive nuanced definition.
I would put Marcone in the psychopath category though as he exhibits traits like planning and self-assuredness. Sociopaths tend to be more rash. Think the Joker (sociopath) versus Rhas Al Ghul (psychopath).
One of the main things is that psychopaths are born, sociopaths are made. Both suffer from a lack of empathy. Although recent research suggests that it isn't that they lack empathy entirely, merely that they can turn it off (or rather have to turn it on, as their main state tends to be less empathetic) - particularly psychopaths. It's still an emerging field of study so absolute statements are a bit tricky.
If Dresden were either, I would be more inclined to believe he is a sociopath based on his tendencies and his history. However as we get a unique look inside his head I am not so certain that he is either. Being capable of great violence, or zealous pathological hate, isn't the exclusive domain of sociopaths or psychopaths unfortunately. The world would probably be a far kinder place if it were...although arguably we might have died out long ago without those very traits. It's a fascinating field of science.
Also Mira, sorry for your loss. That's a horrible thing to have to go through.
If not something like this, what is it that you think the destroyer will do? And why are people so afraid of the thing? Why does Jim keep writing these freakouts, where the only way to stop Harry is to hurt him? He did this as early as Grave Peril. Had Lea not been there the three of them would have died.
I do agree with this. Jim is showing human behaviour but he is also showing us Harry's flaws. I think the biggest difference is Harry does spend a lot of his mental effort trying to not become the monster. He isn't entirely successful but the fact that he is trying at all is a lot better than many psychopaths and sociopaths...who might not even recognise the need to fight it at all/recognise that committing monstrous acts is *evil*.
Harry is definitely being set up as a potential big monster though. That's part of the character and the foreshadowing is very clear. It helps make the character more interesting (at least in my view). It's often why characters like Superman are so boring, especially the early stuff. People who seem to be completely *good* are inhuman and impossible to relate to. Even Jesus had more questionable moments in his life than Superman did in his early comics, and one of them was the son of God.
The thing is, if Harry overcomes his darkness it makes him nobler. Overcoming adversity and choosing to be better when it's hard is much more interesting and admirable than choosing to be good when it's easy. It certainly makes for better reading. So it's almost certain Harry will face harder and harder choices and greater darkness both external and internal. That's been a constant of the series since the beginning and it's unlikely to change.
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Harry is definitely being set up as a potential big monster though. That's part of the character and the foreshadowing is very clear. It helps make the character more interesting (at least in my view). It's often why characters like Superman are so boring, especially the early stuff. People who seem to be completely *good* are inhuman and impossible to relate to. Even Jesus had more questionable moments in his life than Superman did in his early comics, and one of them was the son of God.
That is what makes Harry intriguing as a character, in regards to himself he rarely takes the easy way out. That is the thing about temptation, and maybe what separates warlock from wizard, or as in Star Wars the "darkside" verses the "lightside" of the Force.. The darkside is easier, quicker, than the lightside, but it takes a little of your soul with each use until you turn into a monster. It is a constant struggle, because it is easier, and this is what Harry struggles against.
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If not something like this, what is it that you think the destroyer will do? And why are people so afraid of the thing? Why does Jim keep writing these freakouts, where the only way to stop Harry is to hurt him? He did this as early as Grave Peril. Had Lea not been there the three of them would have died.
Because his anger caused by something evil or his care for one person can become so strong that it overrides other emotions and rationals and may make him do things that are not wise, cause regret later and are evil. That is not what a sociopath will do. It is just the wrong diagnosis.
A sociopath is missing some important emotions, not having an overdose of others.
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Because his anger caused by something evil or his care for one person can become so strong that it overrides other emotions and rationals and may make him do things that are not wise, cause regret later and are evil. That is not what a sociopath will do. It is just the wrong diagnosis.
A sociopath is missing some important emotions, not having an overdose of others.
Agreed, and yes, I realize that being a sociopath is more complicated than the simple dictionary definition, but Harry just doesn't fit that diagnosis.
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He fits some of the parameters and not others. However if you don't see it that way, OK.
I suppose I should let this go. But it aggravates me to no end that Jim has spent so much time painting a picture of a man on the edge, with no clear path on how that setup will be used.
It's almost like he's writing the Incredible Hulk. I keep waiting for Harry to turn green and Hulk out. Harry smash!!!n /sigh...
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He fits some of the parameters and not others. However if you don't see it that way, OK.
I suppose I should let this go. But it aggravates me to no end that Jim has spent so much time painting a picture of a man on the edge, with no clear path on how that setup will be used.
It's almost like he's writing the Incredible Hulk. I keep waiting for Harry to turn green and Hulk out. Harry smash!!!n /sigh...
Actually considering all that has been thrown at Harry since he was five years old, he is pretty level headed.
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He fits some of the parameters and not others. However if you don't see it that way, OK.
I suppose I should let this go. But it aggravates me to no end that Jim has spent so much time painting a picture of a man on the edge, with no clear path on how that setup will be used.
It's almost like he's writing the Incredible Hulk. I keep waiting for Harry to turn green and Hulk out. Harry smash!!!n /sigh...
It is used continuously. As a reason why people distrust Harry. As a danger that can pop up any moment. As something Harry has to overcome. As a source of narrative tension.
Emotions are dangerous. Especially for a wizard.
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That is what makes Harry intriguing as a character, in regards to himself he rarely takes the easy way out. That is the thing about temptation, and maybe what separates warlock from wizard, or as in Star Wars the "darkside" verses the "lightside" of the Force.. The darkside is easier, quicker, than the lightside, but it takes a little of your soul with each use until you turn into a monster. It is a constant struggle, because it is easier, and this is what Harry struggles against.
I agree with pretty much all of this - except the separation between warlocks and wizards. Unfortunately there seems to be a direct negative effect associated with touching black magic (which is pretty much the same as Star Wars funnily enough). It's almost a form of radiation, it poisons and corrupts whatever it comes into contact with. I am not so sure a warlock can stop being a warlock after a while. They become tainted and mutated, corrupted. It's pretty directly drawn from Warhammer's concept of Chaos.
Because his anger caused by something evil or his care for one person can become so strong that it overrides other emotions and rationals and may make him do things that are not wise, cause regret later and are evil. That is not what a sociopath will do. It is just the wrong diagnosis.
A sociopath is missing some important emotions, not having an overdose of others.
Yes and no. It's an oversimplification. Sociopaths and psychopaths experience plenty of rage, mania, sadness, even joy. They can experience pretty much the full range of human emotion. It's their processing of it that has issues. As I said, it's an extremely complicated and debated area. Unfortunately there is a lot of confusion on the terms as much of what people understand them to be is based on outdated terms and theories, or misunderstandings of the science.
But I do agree that Harry probably isn't either, yet. He could well become one.
He fits some of the parameters and not others. However if you don't see it that way, OK.
I suppose I should let this go. But it aggravates me to no end that Jim has spent so much time painting a picture of a man on the edge, with no clear path on how that setup will be used.
It's almost like he's writing the Incredible Hulk. I keep waiting for Harry to turn green and Hulk out. Harry smash!!!n /sigh...
Indeed, that's sometimes what makes diagnosis so tricky. And the diagnosis can be wrong which creates even more problems.
Harry does display some worrying psychological tendencies though, regardless. Which could be the result of his experiences affecting his psyche as well as possibly black magic warping him, or perhaps having a more-than-mortal nature (like being a starborn). We just don't know enough about it all yet. But we do know that Harry is one to worry about. He could well have killed Rudolph in that alley and he was out of control, as out of control as Ebenezar seemed too I might add (when they duelled in Peace Talks).
I'd argue he has gone Hulk more than a few times. The real question is what the ceiling is? How big and bad can Hulk-Harry get? What might he do then?
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It is used continuously. As a reason why people distrust Harry. As a danger that can pop up any moment. As something Harry has to overcome. As a source of narrative tension.
Emotions are dangerous. Especially for a wizard.
Are emotions dangerous for a wizard? I distinctly remember Harry saying that emotions are fuel for magic, good and bad emotions. I don't think it's clear that all emotions are bad for magic.
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Are emotions dangerous for a wizard? I distinctly remember Harry saying that emotions are fuel for magic, good and bad emotions. I don't think it's clear that all emotions are bad for magic.
No, but as in life, too much emotion can be as harmful as too little.
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Are emotions dangerous for a wizard? I distinctly remember Harry saying that emotions are fuel for magic, good and bad emotions. I don't think it's clear that all emotions are bad for magic.
They are fuel and motivation but the dangers of strong emotions are a recurring theme in the books, not just with Harry.
Sometimes your own emotions and sometimes emotions acquired with power like the bloodlust of a red court vampire or the violent emotions of the winter mantle. Free will is seen as something that can override these emotions.
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I agree with pretty much all of this - except the separation between warlocks and wizards. Unfortunately there seems to be a direct negative effect associated with touching black magic (which is pretty much the same as Star Wars funnily enough). It's almost a form of radiation, it poisons and corrupts whatever it comes into contact with. I am not so sure a warlock can stop being a warlock after a while. They become tainted and mutated, corrupted. It's pretty directly drawn from Warhammer's concept of Chaos.
Yes and no. It's an oversimplification. Sociopaths and psychopaths experience plenty of rage, mania, sadness, even joy. They can experience pretty much the full range of human emotion. It's their processing of it that has issues. As I said, it's an extremely complicated and debated area. Unfortunately there is a lot of confusion on the terms as much of what people understand them to be is based on outdated terms and theories, or misunderstandings of the science.
But I do agree that Harry probably isn't either, yet. He could well become one.
Indeed, that's sometimes what makes diagnosis so tricky. And the diagnosis can be wrong which creates even more problems.
Harry does display some worrying psychological tendencies though, regardless. Which could be the result of his experiences affecting his psyche as well as possibly black magic warping him, or perhaps having a more-than-mortal nature (like being a starborn). We just don't know enough about it all yet. But we do know that Harry is one to worry about. He could well have killed Rudolph in that alley and he was out of control, as out of control as Ebenezar seemed too I might add (when they duelled in Peace Talks).
I'd argue he has gone Hulk more than a few times. The real question is what the ceiling is? How big and bad can Hulk-Harry get? What might he do then?
Sociopath and psychopath are about emotions connected with the human herd instinct especially morality and shame. Even if they feel it they don’t feel it as something they should act upon. I do not see that with Harry.
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I agree with pretty much all of this - except the separation between warlocks and wizards. Unfortunately there seems to be a direct negative effect associated with touching black magic (which is pretty much the same as Star Wars funnily enough). It's almost a form of radiation, it poisons and corrupts whatever it comes into contact with. I am not so sure a warlock can stop being a warlock after a while. They become tainted and mutated, corrupted. It's pretty directly drawn from Warhammer's concept of Chaos.
Yes and no. It's an oversimplification. Sociopaths and psychopaths experience plenty of rage, mania, sadness, even joy. They can experience pretty much the full range of human emotion. It's their processing of it that has issues. As I said, it's an extremely complicated and debated area. Unfortunately there is a lot of confusion on the terms as much of what people understand them to be is based on outdated terms and theories, or misunderstandings of the science.
But I do agree that Harry probably isn't either, yet. He could well become one.
Indeed, that's sometimes what makes diagnosis so tricky. And the diagnosis can be wrong which creates even more problems.
Harry does display some worrying psychological tendencies though, regardless. Which could be the result of his experiences affecting his psyche as well as possibly black magic warping him, or perhaps having a more-than-mortal nature (like being a starborn). We just don't know enough about it all yet. But we do know that Harry is one to worry about. He could well have killed Rudolph in that alley and he was out of control, as out of control as Ebenezar seemed too I might add (when they duelled in Peace Talks).
I'd argue he has gone Hulk more than a few times. The real question is what the ceiling is? How big and bad can Hulk-Harry get? What might he do then?
Re: Warlocks and wizards, I've long thought all magic has a "backlash"- or more accurately, each use of magic has the effect of changing your nature to make it easier to do that same thing again.
This would explain why old wizards become immune to mind tampering- they literally become set in their ways after centuries of such backlash.
As an analogy: Most magic creatures are "hard"- their nature is fixed, but their use of magic is easy, natural, and effortless. Humans have free will- this makes them comparatively "squishy", and they gradually work-harden by using magic. If that work hardening is a re-aligning of themselves to make it easier to repeat the feats, then magic "in harmony" with nature would increase their harmony with nature, and "unnatural" magic that abuses nature/magic (dark magic) would be like a stain, as described.
This would explain ability at magic growing over time, the mental fixity of older wizards, and warlocks. Harry's strength would be indicative of most people are mud, and he started as fairly rigid clay with lots of grit- harder to reshape period.
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No, but as in life, too much emotion can be as harmful as too little.
Fair enough. Balance in all things.
They are fuel and motivation but the dangers of strong emotions are a recurring theme in the books, not just with Harry.
Sometimes your own emotions and sometimes emotions acquired with power like the bloodlust of a red court vampire or the violent emotions of the winter mantle. Free will is seen as something that can override these emotions.
Without willpower, would emotions even matter? If you have no will you cannot act. Emotions are an effect on will but not the source. I agree, there is great danger with both too much and too little emotion.
Sociopath and psychopath are about emotions connected with the human herd instinct especially morality and shame. Even if they feel it they don’t feel it as something they should act upon. I do not see that with Harry.
As I say, it's an intensely complicated subject. Whether psychopaths and/or sociopaths do or don't believe they should act in certain ways is still a point of contention amongst researchers. I don't have a definite answer on it because there is merit in arguments on both sides. I doubt we will come to any real conclusions anytime soon as research in this field tends to take a long time to show any meaningful results, and there are larger problems in how research is done in academia (but that's a whole other issue).
Re: Warlocks and wizards, I've long thought all magic has a "backlash"- or more accurately, each use of magic has the effect of changing your nature to make it easier to do that same thing again.
This would explain why old wizards become immune to mind tampering- they literally become set in their ways after centuries of such backlash.
As an analogy: Most magic creatures are "hard"- their nature is fixed, but their use of magic is easy, natural, and effortless. Humans have free will- this makes them comparatively "squishy", and they gradually work-harden by using magic. If that work hardening is a re-aligning of themselves to make it easier to repeat the feats, then magic "in harmony" with nature would increase their harmony with nature, and "unnatural" magic that abuses nature/magic (dark magic) would be like a stain, as described.
This would explain ability at magic growing over time, the mental fixity of older wizards, and warlocks. Harry's strength would be indicative of most people are mud, and he started as fairly rigid clay with lots of grit- harder to reshape period.
Like a self-programming remote! The more you use it one way, the more it tries to be used that way.
I think you're pretty on the money with all that. Although surely even older wizards are not shielded totally from the side-effects of using black magic. But who knows?
It certainly makes sense in line with other WOJ about mutability etc. When asked about Grey, Jim spoke about how if Grey ate enough of Harry's magic it would make him pretty much Harry. He effectively forces himself to change. This is because Grey has Free Will. Whereas Naagloshii (being immortal) are immutable. They can eat Harry's magic and still be themselves. In fact, the words he says about Grey is "the more you become something other than you are, the less of you is left over". That might be basically what happens with black magic. You can choose to become a monster by committing monstrous acts, but then you no longer really are "you" - the being that you started off as.
Which begs the question - how do immortal "good" creatures go bad? Like Lucifer, or even the Naagloshii themselves? Something to do with Outsiders I'd bet.
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I think you're pretty on the money with all that. Although surely even older wizards are not shielded totally from the side-effects of using black magic. But who knows?
Using black magic or having it used on them? As in what really happened to Justin? He had the rep of being a very good Warden when he retired, but then he went warlock.. He's been called that what he did to Elaine and tried to do to Harry were clearly warlock moves, so what corrupted him? Was it just a series of wrong choices and wrong answers?
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Using black magic or having it used on them? As in what really happened to Justin? He had the rep of being a very good Warden when he retired, but then he went warlock.. He's been called that what he did to Elaine and tried to do to Harry were clearly warlock moves, so what corrupted him? Was it just a series of wrong choices and wrong answers?
Well, I am not sure having Black magic used on you corrupts the recipient. I haven't seen anything to suggest that...although that would be very Star Wars and Jim is a big fan.
Justin's decent is a great mystery. But the big indicator is that his master was Simon Pietrovich, a wizard who broke the rules around interfering in mortal politics and was warned by his long time friend Ebenezar to stop or be taken out. Simon found the restrictions of the Council to be frustrating. This is all information from the Paranet Papers. I'd say that Justin agreed with his old master.
Justin did gain Bob when Bob was Kemmler's horrific demon servant. I imagine part of the corruption was from there. Perhaps he was warlock by then, perhaps not. Justin clearly knew about the Cycle and whatever the starborn's precipitate. He was planning to be a player in the Cycle it seems, but seemingly was foiled. It wouldn't surprise me though if Justin became more desperate and kept justifying using greyer and greyer magic until he forgot where the line was and was full on using black magic. Seems to be how it goes. Slippery slope and all that.
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Using black magic or having it used on them? As in what really happened to Justin? He had the rep of being a very good Warden when he retired, but then he went warlock.. He's been called that what he did to Elaine and tried to do to Harry were clearly warlock moves, so what corrupted him? Was it just a series of wrong choices and wrong answers?
We do not know how old he really was and he might have been bad for quite some time. Also he was playing with outsiders which is bad for you. He might have been infected or tampered with by Nemesis or he who walks behind.
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We do not know how old he really was and he might have been bad for quite some time. Also he was playing with outsiders which is bad for you. He might have been infected or tampered with by Nemesis or he who walks behind.
True, but you are not exactly an apprentice when you are recruited into the Warden Corp. All the indications when viewed from the outside, he was a top Warden when he retired. However there are indications that he as going bad before he retired because that is when he stole Bob on the raid to get Kemmler. Infection is very possible..
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True, but you are not exactly an apprentice when you are recruited into the Warden Corp. All the indications when viewed from the outside, he was a top Warden when he retired. However there are indications that he as going bad before he retired because that is when he stole Bob on the raid to get Kemmler. Infection is very possible..
They recruit wardens quite young now. They might have done the same when Kemmler was on a rampage
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They recruit wardens quite young now. They might have done the same when Kemmler was on a rampage
True, I thought of that as well, but I doubt that Justin was a "young" Warden when they went up against Kemmler.