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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: ClintACK on July 28, 2020, 06:52:17 PM
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Proposed: When a faerie who cannot lie tells you that she cannot do something, she's probably not speaking metaphorically.
Theory: Molly literally cannot tell her parents that she's the Winter Lady.
In Cold Case, we learned that there are things Molly literally can't say or tell people, without a fair bargain in place. She tries to tell Carlos what she's doing in Unalaska, and it keeps coming out as Maeve-style subtlety-of-a-two-by-four flirting instead.
Similarly, when Harry asks her to tell him how she's handling being Winter Lady, she says: "Can't, literally. Faerie mystique and all that."
When he raises the subject of telling her parents: "I will," she said with a bit too much instant assurance. "You know. When I find a way to bring it up." Perhaps she means this literally as well -- she can't just bring up the subject and tell them, without some sort of pretext or bargain or way to make it her duty to tell them.
In Peace Talks, Harry cuts off her explanation fo why she hasn't told them, assuming that he understands. What if he doesn't? What if her explanation was going to be that it could harm the cause of Winter to have Michael angry, and she literally can't take that risk without a benefit to Winter to balance the scales. Through the rest of the conversation, she says things like: "I can't," (italics in the orignal), "It hurts," "I can't," "I can't," and "I can't ask you to do that."
Remember that she can't lie. When she says that she can't do something, we should assume that she's being completely literal.
It's a horrific conversation when you parse it that way -- she's weeping and begging him to help her and he just thinks she needs a hug and some emotional support.
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Oh, duh. Of course! Harry is so dumb, lol.
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But as someone in the Dresden Files; maybe it was Michael, once said, "The faeries are such lawyers." (or something like that) In any case, if Molly can't outright tell her parents that she's the Winter Lady she'll have to do something else, like show them she's the Winter Lady. Harry will have to play along with the Molly's game, one way or another. Molly might give Harry some specific orders or he might have to figure out what's going on and realize he has to play his part. In the end, Michael, Charity or both will realize what happened and figure out that Molly is the new Winter Lady. Once they've said it, the reason for keeping the secret is gone and Molly should be free to talk about it. Though Molly will still have to keep the details of her job secret.
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That sounds right. I'm just surprised that Michael seeing Molly's face on the Hecate statue in Skin Game didn't trigger the revelation somehow.
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That sounds right. I'm just surprised that Michael seeing Molly's face on the Hecate statue in Skin Game didn't trigger the revelation somehow.
We should all be thankful that it didn't. Michael would not have been happy, and he was piloting Uriel's Jumbo Jet at the time...
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But he might have realized later. For all we know Michael already knows just like he knew about Lasciel's coin. It is not out of character for Michael to wait for Molly to tell him.
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You know? When I read that part I understand the "I can't" as "I literally can't". So I thought Harry would need to tell them. I was surprised that Harry did not offer that in the spot. But then, the rest of the conversation...it seems clear that she thinks she may be able to tell them if she has some support.
Besides, I am not sure Molly is a fae yet. She is changing, she is becoming a fae, but I am not sure she is totally unable to lie right now. I am wondering who else knows Molly is the Lady. I mean, in the PT is clear that everybody knows she is the Winter Lady. Apparently, the white council knows. I see no reason why the Knights wouldn't. And if they know, probably a literal angel told a retired Knight. It seems...difficult to keep the secret in something like that.
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You know? When I read that part I understand the "I can't" as "I literally can't". So I thought Harry would need to tell them. I was surprised that Harry did not offer that in the spot. But then, the rest of the conversation...it seems clear that she thinks she may be able to tell them if she has some support.
She can not lie but She can play with existing meanings of words and sentences. “She can’t because her father will see it as...” is not lying.
Besides, I am not sure Molly is a fae yet. She is changing, she is becoming a fae, but I am not sure she is totally unable to lie right now.
We have the inner dialog in bombshells, she is subject to winter law but we do not know if not lying is part of that.
I am wondering who else knows Molly is the Lady. I mean, in the PT is clear that everybody knows she is the Winter Lady. Apparently, the white council knows. I see no reason why the Knights wouldn't. And if they know, probably a literal angel told a retired Knight. It seems...difficult to keep the secret in something like that.
An angel won’t tell him. That would interfere with Molly’s telling him and though Molly does not have free will anymore it is still her decision.
Same reason Harry won’t tell.
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You know? When I read that part I understand the "I can't" as "I literally can't". So I thought Harry would need to tell them. I was surprised that Harry did not offer that in the spot. But then, the rest of the conversation...it seems clear that she thinks she may be able to tell them if she has some support.
Besides, I am not sure Molly is a fae yet. She is changing, she is becoming a fae, but I am not sure she is totally unable to lie right now. I am wondering who else knows Molly is the Lady. I mean, in the PT is clear that everybody knows she is the Winter Lady. Apparently, the white council knows. I see no reason why the Knights wouldn't. And if they know, probably a literal angel told a retired Knight. It seems...difficult to keep the secret in something like that.
That is how I read it as well, I think it was the still human part of Molly speaking. She knows how
much pain some of her past actions has caused them, she knows that what she is flies in the face of their Christian beliefs, it is simply too painful for her to tell them the truth.
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One more quote, this one from Summer Knight, the very first time Harry meets Maeve.
He asks her if she arranged the murder of the Summer Knight. After he calls her on her evasions, her reply is: "I can't just give you that kind of information, Wizard Dresden. It's too powerful." She explains: "It means that if you want me to answer that question, you're going to have to pay for it. What is the answer worth to you?"
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One more quote, this one from Summer Knight, the very first time Harry meets Maeve.
He asks her if she arranged the murder of the Summer Knight. After he calls her on her evasions, her reply is: "I can't just give you that kind of information, Wizard Dresden. It's too powerful." She explains: "It means that if you want me to answer that question, you're going to have to pay for it. What is the answer worth to you?"
However by that time Mab was 99.999% Fae, with just a touch of humanity that surfaces once in a while against her will. No doubt there are rules and she will bargain, but that wasn't what Molly was doing. She wasn't trying to make a deal with Harry, she is just trying to get up the courage to come clean with her parents.
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One more quote, this one from Summer Knight, the very first time Harry meets Maeve.
He asks her if she arranged the murder of the Summer Knight. After he calls her on her evasions, her reply is: "I can't just give you that kind of information, Wizard Dresden. It's too powerful." She explains: "It means that if you want me to answer that question, you're going to have to pay for it. What is the answer worth to you?"
That was Maeve. For all we know she was already lying.
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That was Maeve. For all we know she was already lying.
Maeve acts bound by Fae behavior through all this book. Posdible but unlikely.
She even acts Fae at McAnally's- "drop the evil kinktress act and we'll talk" can be construed *as a bargain* that lets "real" Maeve out.
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Maeve acts bound by Fae behavior through all this book. Posdible but unlikely.
She even acts Fae at McAnally's- "drop the evil kinktress act and we'll talk" can be construed *as a bargain* that lets "real" Maeve out.
Depends on wether she was already infected. She would be mostly Behave Fae but keeping information to help nemesis would have been in character.
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Remember what Uriel whispered in Harry's ear in response to what Mab said. They cannot lie, but that doesn't mean they can't be wrong. Or narrow minded in their perception about their options. Or imposing their own perceptions on other people's actions. Or possibly even lying to themselves (see Jim's AMA from a few years ago).
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An angel won’t tell him. That would interfere with Molly’s telling him and though Molly does not have free will anymore it is still her decision.
Same reason Harry won’t tell.
I disagree. Interfering with Molly free will would be preventing her to tell (if she wanted to) or forcing her to tell (if she did not want). Telling Michael before she could does not affect her free will. Harry would respect her decision, not for free will concerns but for respect to Molly's feelings and privacy. But Uriel could tell Michael if the WG wants. Butters and Sanya are a little in the middle.
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What surprised me about that conversation was that Harry didn't say something like, "Do you want your parents to find out from you or from one of your or my enemies?" Because it seems to me that the longer Molly holds out the more likely that is how Michael and Charity will find out, even if they don't immediately believe what they hear. Even someone like Ebenezer might stop by looking for Harry; assuming they've patched things up, and accidentally mention Molly's new status in casual conversation.
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I agree, I thought the same, not necessary an enemy but someone else.
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Depends on wether she was already infected. She would be mostly Behave Fae but keeping information to help nemesis would have been in character.
She was likely infected at the end of SK. When she rescues Harry and the Alphas, she mentions that Lea sends her regards. Nemesis striking while Mab was distracted seems a safe bet.
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If there aren't Winter Law things going on, it's disappointing to see Molly reverting to the very same mistake that got her into trouble in Proven Guilty. She's grown up a lot since then and shouldn't be making the same mistake that almost destroyed her.
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But he might have realized later. For all we know Michael already knows just like he knew about Lasciel's coin. It is not out of character for Michael to wait for Molly to tell him.
From what he says in PT, Michael knows something has happened, that Molly has taken on some kind of supernatural position/role/debt/obligation, but I don't think he knows specifically that she is Winter Lady.
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Unless Michael is willfully blind he's gonna know by the end of Battleground. And deep down he may know now. Harry has sold the wicked faerie thing for so long that I suppose that Molly see's herself as evil. She died on that hill. Fathers can forgive a lot, but....
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That is one of the most interesting things about Christmas Eve after reading PT. It seems that Molly is more or less fine with her parents, but Michael is not angry at Harry and Charity at least allowed him to be there with Maggie on Christmas Eve. So, that's good, I guess?
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That is one of the most interesting things about Christmas Eve after reading PT. It seems that Molly is more or less fine with her parents, but Michael is not angry at Harry and Charity at least allowed him to be there with Maggie on Christmas Eve. So, that's good, I guess?
That seems to be a reasonable conclusion to make. I'm not sure when Peace Talks is taking place, but my guess is that in Christmas Story Michael and Charity have had about six months to get over the shock and any anger they might have had towards Harry. However, I remember an interview I read with Jim right after Cold Days came out (Damn, that was a long time ago.), where he said the conversation where Molly's parents find out their daughter is now; "slutty Queen of the kinky fae" (I think those were the exact words Jim used.), would not go well and Michael would have some anger issues to deal with. Of course, this is how Jim imagined the scene back then. It's possible he changed his mind and wrote it somewhat differently.
(I have not been able to find that interview since about six months after I first found it online. Perhaps the website where I read it; and it was a written interview, is no longer up.)
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(I have not been able to find that interview since about six months after I first found it online. Perhaps the website where I read it; and it was a written interview, is no longer up.)
Are you sure it isn't the one way down this page ( https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/2014-transcripts-from-audiovideo-woj-sources/ )?
Yeah, that might…that might just be a small part of the next book…what’s going on with that. Yeah, Harry has to go up to Michael and say, “Yeah, about your daughter, ummm….she’s sort of the….she’s sort of the…..the trampy queen of Faerie these days…that’s kind of the job she inherited, so, you know, if she shows up looking weird……er, try not to hold it too hard against her?” Uh, we’ll have to see how that pans out, because Michael is, you know, he has a great heart, great soul, but he’s not a saint. He’s definitely going to have his limits. Somebody’s going to get Charity with her nail-gun at the rate things are going. We’ll have to see what’s going on, that’s what it’s shaping up like though. It’s going to be fun to see that happen.
It's not exactly the same wording, but this phrasing seems more accurate given Molly's limitations as seen in Cold Case.
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Unless Michael is willfully blind he's gonna know by the end of Battleground. And deep down he may know now. Harry has sold the wicked faerie thing for so long that I suppose that Molly see's herself as evil. She died on that hill. Fathers can forgive a lot, but....
I don't think Molly sees herself as evil, but she is conflicted. She was brought up in a strict Catholic home, went to Catholic school, it was bad enough when she discovered she had talent, she couldn't go to her parents then. She knew her mother's attitude towards Harry, this is much more complicated. I also agree by Christmas Eve, at least while Michael may not be happy with what she has become, he is at peace with it.
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Are you sure it isn't the one way down this page ( https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/2014-transcripts-from-audiovideo-woj-sources/ )?
It's not exactly the same wording, but this phrasing seems more accurate given Molly's limitations as seen in Cold Case.
It could be from that page, but I recall the website I read it on had a lot of advertising on it. Something much more commercial.
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So, Harry will tell him? I am not so sure that is going to happen here. Perhaps that is one of those cases where JB changed his mind (and another example of why I never care too much for WoJ. Unless it is in the text, it can change.
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So, Harry will tell him? I am not so sure that is going to happen here. Perhaps that is one of those cases where JB changed his mind (and another example of why I never care too much for WoJ. Unless it is in the text, it can change.
That WoJ is pre-Skin Game, so yeah, it didn't happen like that. Harry ended up dodging the issue when it came up.