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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: seanham on February 17, 2022, 05:16:34 AM
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I am currently re-reading Turn Coat, and I came across a very interesting line when the Naagloshii encountered the spells around the cottage and tower (page 447 of the paperback)
It fell back from the tower, clearly frustrated, and just as clearly familiar with the symbols that allowed the stones to shed the power of the skinwalker as swiftly and as easily as they shed rainwater.
This appears to say that Shagnasty has seen spells like this before, AKA Merlin's work. So where else could he have seen this work? We know that the Naagloshii are based in the American Southwest, and typically Merlin lore comes out of Europe, so did Merlin do more spell work in America, or did the Naagloshii travel across the pond to Europe sometime. Also, any ideas what else would require this complex level of spell work to be laid down?
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I'd say because it's siblings and perhaps itself had been on the island before, perhaps in an attempt to free it's siblings or others from jail. It may have been when it's siblings were captured by the Warden of that time, and put in the "minimum" security prison as POWs perhaps? And maybe just a wild guess, the so called "British Prisoner," also dates back to that time?
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The only other in universe example of similar spellwork is actually Castle Dresden. Perhaps the Naagloshii visited Scotland?. Is there anything in Scottish myth like Shagnasty? The Naagloshii eat the magic of wizards, maybe Shagnasty tried this with one of the former residents of the castle in Scotland and was kept locked outside until he returned to his traditional grounds.
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The only other in universe example of similar spellwork is actually Castle Dresden. Perhaps the Naagloshii visited Scotland?. Is there anything in Scottish myth like Shagnasty? The Naagloshii eat the magic of wizards, maybe Shagnasty tried this with one of the former residents of the castle in Scotland and was kept locked outside until he returned to his traditional grounds.
I kind of doubt that, but if say a platoon of Naagloshii attacked the island, the Warden would bind them.. If the Naggloshii who fought Harry had been in on that fight and escaped, it would remember those runes.
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I kind of doubt that, but if say a platoon of Naagloshii attacked the island, the Warden would bind them.. If the Naggloshii who fought Harry had been in on that fight and escaped, it would remember those runes.
That may be true but why would Shagnasty return to the island that has his people imprisoned? If there was a platoon of Naggloshii that tried to break into Demonreach and Shagnasty was the only one (or one of the few) who returned he would know where the island is and that it posed a real danger to him. I really don't see Shagnasty doing research or knowing in advance that Harry was new to being the Warden, thus not having the knowledge of imprisoning him.
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Full Naagloshii are on par with angels, if so they may have existed before linear time like many of the big players. He may also be able to timetravel.
In either scenario Shagnasty is not remembering something from his past, he is remembering something from the future (relative to Harry) and his next showdown on the island with Harry, his first and Harry’s second, or alternatively a future attack on Castle Dresden which actually seems more likely. He wasn’t expecting the Spells on the island and at that point in linear time the Castle didn’t exist in Chicago, which he would have avoided if he had had a previous run-in as the Castle.
Castle attack with Harry and Gargoyles versus Shagnasty would be nice, since their last to do Harry gained Soulfire and the Winter Knight Mantle, making it less of a mismatch especially in the Castle.
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Harry already had Soulfire in Turn Coat. He charged up his lasso/noose with it and Shagnasty even asked him about it.
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Harry already had Soulfire in Turn Coat. He charged up his lasso/noose with it and Shagnasty even asked him about it.
Yes, though I'd argue that beyond what Bob had told him and the boost it gave some of his spells, Harry didn't begin to understand the nature of Soul Fire till his tussle with Mother Winter in Cold Days, but I digress.
Anyway, as pointed out Shagnasty and it's kin have been around since the beginning of time, so
it just stands to reason that it would have run into runes of that kind in the past and their effects.
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Merlin might have travelled more widely in the Americas than just the Great Lakes area to set up the prison on the island, and European legends about him just didn't record it. He was clearly a lot more influential and around a lot longer in the DV than just the "advisor to King Arthur" that the real world legends have him as.
Or, it might have familiarity with the runes through a third party. Vadderung was supposedly a mentor to Merlin, and I'd be 0% surprised if he'd tangled with them at some point. And wasn't there supposed to be some sort of connection between the island's runic alphabet and the Hecatean Hags from the comic? Maybe it had dealings and was frustrated to be countered by something similar to their alphabet.
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I like the Odin thought. I also wouldn't be surprised if Odin fought the Naagloshii before, even if it wasn't Odin, maybe another one of Merlin's students. At the end of Battle Ground(?), it talks about how the Castle's defenses were very similar to those on Demonreach, so maybe one of Merlin's apprentices went to the Americas, and Shagnasty encountered some of their work sometime.
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Perhaps Naagloshii have limited collective memory as a form of Intellectus, and one of the inmates originally saw the runes. We are getting more limited forms of Intellectus, in Battle Ground alone we got the Knights Banner, and the Valkyries catalogue, so a collective memory of harmful things would be useful. All Naagloshii would therefore be forewarned of what one of their kind found harmful, like following Donald Morgan out of the Never Never into an apparently innocuous desert. Naagloshii learn not only from their mistakes, they learn from all the mistakes everyone of their kind make. That would make them badass, it also means you can never repeat the same trick on any Naagloshii, like you could with a different Blamp, or Fae. Morgan’s trick could not be repeated on any Naagloshii.
Obviously half human scions don’t have this, and this may be a blind spot, an absence in their power set which makes them vulnerable, otherwise Goodman Grey wouldn’t have been hired a second time by Harry Dresden.
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Perhaps Naagloshii have limited collective memory as a form of Intellectus, and one of the inmates originally saw the runes.
Hmm, that's interesting. However, if that were true wouldn't Shagnasty have known how to counter LTW magic? The Native American shamans had a method of dealing naagloshii so I would assume they have natural weaknesses that LTW took advantage of.
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Maybe they haven’t been able to develop a counter other than run away, which is what happened, as with the runes if you can’t counter it, avoid it.
Perhaps the counter would have been to ‘eat’ LTTW and gain the ability.
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Maybe they haven’t been able to develop a counter other than run away, which is what happened, as with the runes if you can’t counter it, avoid it.
Perhaps the counter would have been to ‘eat’ LTTW and gain the ability.
Of course, the runes were written by the great Wizard Tim! Shaggy also knew there was a killer rabbit lying in wait for him... So what else was he to do? RUN AWAY!!!! :o
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Of course, the runes were written by the great Wizard Tim! Shaggy also knew there was a killer rabbit lying in wait for him... So what else was he to do? RUN AWAY!!!! :o
Perhaps Shaggy had seen Night of the Lepus, and it gave him nightmares?
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Perhaps Shaggy had seen Night of the Lepus, and it gave him nightmares?
More like Monty Python's "Search for the Holy Grail.."
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This appears to say that Shagnasty has seen spells like this before, AKA Merlin's work. So where else could he have seen this work? We know that the Naagloshii are based in the American Southwest, and typically Merlin lore comes out of Europe, so did Merlin do more spell work in America, or did the Naagloshii travel across the pond to Europe sometime. Also, any ideas what else would require this complex level of spell work to be laid down?
I interpreted that from the opposite direction than you did... I made the assumption that the creator of the wards (didn't know it was Merlin at the time) had incorporated elements of Native American magic that were effective against Naagloshi.
So it's not that Shagnasty was familiar with Merlin's works, it's that Merlin was familiar with Naagloshi and included protections against them that were recognizable to Shagnasty.
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Naagloshinare semi divine, would these wards work against Angels, even Mr Sunshine.
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Naagloshinare semi divine, would these wards work against Angels, even Mr Sunshine.
Only Jim knows...
As I said, my assumption was that Merlin's wards incorporated elements of Native American shamanic magic specifically targeted against Naagloshi. If that's the case, they probably wouldn't affect angels of The White God.
However, it's also possible that Merlin incorporated Judeo-Christian symbology capable of thwarting angels as well (one would assume with the intention of protection against the Fallen rather than Mr Sunshine and his brethren).
*Edit* Scratch that - Nicky and/or the Nickelheads had no problem entering the tower in order to set up or repurpose the circle designed to contain Ivy.
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*Edit* Scratch that - Nicky and/or the Nickelheads had no problem entering the tower in order to set up or repurpose the circle designed to contain Ivy.
Could it be because at that time there was no Warden for the island? Remember there are defenses that only the Warden can turn on. Yeah, I know Harry wasn't officially Warden as of Turn Coat, but he had become aware of the island and it him after he had done his thing with Alfred. Maybe that made the difference?
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Very different scenarios.
The Naagloshii are creatures of spirit, they are closer to being like angels than physical beings. While they are not demons like Chauncy, I would say they are quite similar to Fae yet no mortal origin. They are not like Wraiths or other such full-spirit creatures. But they are much more spirit than physical, mortal being. They are Immortals after all (the original Naagloshii I mean).
The Fallen in the Coins are travelling through the physical world in a vessel they were bound in, used by the will of mortals. Just like the Knights of the Cross and their Swords. Thresholds don't bother either of them in those circumstances. The only thing that has stopped them to my memory were the angelic guards at the Carpenter house.
I'd say those wards keep out everything but mortal creatures. As we know though, there are defences that can be activated to keep everything out if needed. I suspect there are very few beings that could break-in via brute force.
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I am currently re-reading Turn Coat, and I came across a very interesting line when the Naagloshii encountered the spells around the cottage and tower (page 447 of the paperback)
This appears to say that Shagnasty has seen spells like this before, AKA Merlin's work. So where else could he have seen this work? We know that the Naagloshii are based in the American Southwest, and typically Merlin lore comes out of Europe, so did Merlin do more spell work in America, or did the Naagloshii travel across the pond to Europe sometime. Also, any ideas what else would require this complex level of spell work to be laid down?
I'm going to offer some thoughts, I won't dignify it as a wag. One is a matter of semantics. Demonereach was built and I quote.“Merlin didn’t build the prison five times,” Bob said. “He built it once. In five different times. All at the same time.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 173). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The semantic issue arises out of the arrow of time, build a thing in the past and it exists in all time going forward. If on the other hand you build it in the future and want it in the past then you have to build it backwards. It doesn't make sense otherwise.
The second note is about who could know of those symbols. There are two sets of characters in the books who could know. Angels and the Archive. Since the Archive contains the body of knowledge of the human race, if the symbols were used by humans she knows and understands them. And of course angels are know it all's.
A final note. If the Oblivion War is meant to wipe out all knowledge of the things that live in the prison then you have to accept that the prison will eventually need to pass out of human memory. That implies that there will be a final Warden.
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I suspect there is no written record of Demonreach, and that the Merlin and the Archive have been working at cross purposes all along.
Now Thomas and Lara are Venators, I am not sure Thomas has been downside before Peace Talks, but Lara must after Battle Ground realise Demonreach is a prison. And Harry is about to marry her. And the Archive is likely to be invited to the wedding. Oh dear......
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I will point out that the symbols are symbols and as such part of the human lexicon. If the Archive doesn't know them then she isn't what Jim says she is.
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I'm going to offer some thoughts, I won't dignify it as a wag. One is a matter of semantics. Demonereach was built and I quote.The semantic issue arises out of the arrow of time, build a thing in the past and it exists in all time going forward. If on the other hand you build it in the future and want it in the past then you have to build it backwards. It doesn't make sense otherwise.
The second note is about who could know of those symbols. There are two sets of characters in the books who could know. Angels and the Archive. Since the Archive contains the body of knowledge of the human race, if the symbols were used by humans she knows and understands them. And of course angels are know it all's.
A final note. If the Oblivion War is meant to wipe out all knowledge of the things that live in the prison then you have to accept that the prison will eventually need to pass out of human memory. That implies that there will be a final Warden.
Well, one could argue by building it in 5 different time periods simultaneously, he was building it both forward and backward at the same time (depending on his perspective or the perspective of anything watching).
From a physics perspective, I'd say he was building it outside the normal passage of time relative to the universe (obviously not relative to himself). A bubble of separated time, if you like. This is why he would appear to be in several points of space-time simultaneously (which of course is impossible in physics). In fact, I suspect in relation to himself, he was building the prison just the once. Kind of like being in the centre of Venn diagram made of five circles. He's in all yet also in his own space. A space only possible due to him being in it and linking the five other spaces.
There are others apart from the Archive and angels who could have known what those symbols are - gods, higher-level demons, certain faeries etc. I suspect many such powerful beings could know that sort of thing. Also, any wizards who learned Merlin's magic (or even his predecessors) could well know his stuff potentially. Harder to say though.
Is the Oblivion War meant to wipe out knowledge of what is in the prison? I might have missed that. I didn't really see the two being related myself.
I will point out that the symbols are symbols and as such part of the human lexicon. If the Archive doesn't know them then she isn't what Jim says she is.
Well, the point of such a archetype like the Archive in the story apart from having them as an information source/dump is also that their information has holes/can be wrong. It really helps with those sucker punches that Jim never uses...
The Archive has sort of changed a bit over the series. At first she was just the repository of all human knowledge that had been gathered by her predecessors. Then she became the repository of all human knowledge ever written down (even if it were later destroyed, it was now embedded within her). First she simply used to learn things like any other human. Then she was able to learn anything that had been written by anyone, anywhere.
Of course...not all knowledge is recorded. So one enormous gap in her knowledge would be any oral knowledge. She also would not have access to information that was only in people's heads. That's a few big gaps already.
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You probably shouldn't haul physics into it. But have fun with it.
In terms of the prison the calculus is simple. If the idea is to remove the collective knowledge of the Old Gods and whatever else that may be a target in the Oblivion War, it can't be done as long as the prison has a human Warden. The Warden will know. Butcher has chosen a multiverse for his playground. If I were writing it, Bonea would become the Archive and at some point in time the prison would cease to exist at some point. He laid the ground for that even if it wasn't his intent when he introduced the idea of Angelic magic. He had Lash speak of the protections on the safe room at Michael's house.
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I think the Demonreach building in 5 different Time periods was to ensure it also exists in all relevant parallel worlds, so an entity trying to tunnel out by going into the Mirror Mirror world merely tunnels into exactly the same cell in the parallel world. Hopefully his Mirror Mirror counterpart had the same idea an he’s in the original cell, if not then they need to see the Warden about prison overcrowding.
The other point maybe is that Demonreach has a failsafe which has had to be used five times throughout its history. One would be in a parallel world where the Outsider /Maeve attack in Cold Days succeeded, the others would be similar instances, blocking off those worlds.
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How I think about it depends on the time of the day, the direction of the wind and how much sleep I've had. Currently it feels like a five point star 666 years apart which has no deep meaning other than it takes you back to the Beginnings of Rome, giver or take.
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I'd say because it's siblings and perhaps itself had been on the island before, perhaps in an attempt to free it's siblings or others from jail. It may have been when it's siblings were captured by the Warden of that time, and put in the "minimum" security prison as POWs perhaps? And maybe just a wild guess, the so called "British Prisoner," also dates back to that time?
Well.... Shagnasty is not exactly young. He may have "met" the original Merlin, or others like him, a long, long time ago... :)
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Perhaps Shaggy had seen Night of the Lepus, and it gave him nightmares?
Giant Rabbits are terrifying .Especially their B movie Ilk..I would give give Shaggy Boy a 1 in 10 chance against those abominations....... Unless he had carrots then that goes up to a 5.The lepus are legion!
That said : Shaggy boy is one of the coolest villains of the series. Butcher did a great job on making him Dresden's first incapacitating Boogeyman. If Listens to Wind had fought him as soon as Shag came to Chicago that fight might have had a different outcome..on the account that the Naagloshi lose more power the longer they stay away from tribal lands
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The ultimate play out of Shaggy is that Harry soulgazes Shaggy and Harry becomes Shaggy’s boogeyman.
Not so far fetched - Shaggy eats wizards magic, what if does it via a Soulgaze, forcing it on Wizards as a conduit to their magic and their life force. Instead Harry takes a huge bite out of a stunned Shaggy.
Harry has already seen the real Shaggy through his third eye and whilst it is still affecting him he survived it. We know from Battle Ground Soul Gazing Harry makes Monsters crap themselves.