ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on June 03, 2020, 05:49:04 AM
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We learn in the first chapter of Peace Talks that every major Power is showing up and/or sending representatives. We know Ferrovax will make an appearance. Will Drakul? Or is Mavra his representative?
There is also another Dragon (Pyrovax?), the Archive (who we know just fired Kincaid and will be in attendance), Vadderung (or at least Monoc Securities representing him), a semi-immortal shapeshifter guru in the Ukraine and several others.
In order:
1. The Unseelie Court
2. The Seelie Court
3. Vadderung
4. Ferrovax
5. Pyrovax
6. The Archive
7. Shapeshifter Guru (could be Goodman Grey)
8. The White Council
9. The Red Court (formally)
10. The White Court
11. The Black Court (unclear)
12. The Knights of the Blackened Denarius (unclear if still)
13. The Jade Court (possibly)
14. Marcone (as of the end of White Night/beginning of Small Favor)
15. The Fomor
16. The Svartalves
This leaves about 4 to 7 other signatories that will have a presence at the Peace Talks. Can anyone guess the others?
Beyond that, what does everyone think about representatives showing up?
I am hoping Drakul will show up myself but wouldn't be surprised if we only get another mention and he sends an Emissary. Will we see a Jade Court rep? And who will the Fomor send? Cantrev Lord Omogh? King Corb? The Empress herself?
Thoughts?
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I've never connected Goodman Grey with the Shapeshifting Guru, I like it as a WAG.
The Black Court I'm pretty sure were signatories before the Black Court Purge. Mavra obeys the laws of hospitality and keeps her Word. Bianca's Red Court Ball was an Accord event, Mavra was an honored guest. Plus at their peak according to WOJ the Elders together could take on Mab they were that powerful
The Denarians are ex members of the Accords. Small Favour they broke the accords by going after the neutral representative The Archive. Skin Game was Mab getting revenge for it. Nick's broken his word. Harry does a whole speech on it.
Your also forgetting the Wyld Fae and there independent fiefdoms. I think the Erlking would have to be a member even if by default only because he has nominal loyalty to Titania, but his realm is independent enough that Harry invoking Mabs name 3 times could have started a war.
Jade Court, Shiro references them having organised Duels with them. It was specifically in response to Harry asking about the Accords Duel. However Jim says they're very isolationists, don't even like the concept of 'chin'so could go either way.
Where's the 4 to 7 other signatories come from? Do we have a number on the amount of signatories?
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There is scant information on a slavic shapeshifter, so it's the best I can do for now. I might find something later and post it. Jim wouldn't have thrown the name in if he didn't intend it for something. But Goodman as the Guru somehow makes sense, despite his Navajo origins. Although if it is in fact Goodman...I would associate him with Simon or Drakul perhaps. That would be concerning.
Indeed, the Black Court (and now the Red Court as well) were signatories before their destruction. One has to wonder though if being destroyed voids your commitment. In Harry's case it certainly didn't. So I would think Mavra is still signed on. As would any other surviving Red Court vampire. But I guess we'll see.
The really interesting case is the Denarians. I would think as they are repeat offenders of breaking the rules (and Nicodemus seems to represent them) they might be off the Accords. I get what you're saying about them being punished. But they weren't explicitly kicked out. Something to be aware of is that they were not kicked out for breaking the laws of hospitality or such, but specifically for breaking Mab's own Accords. Repeatedly. Mab was sending a message. But as far as I can tell they were not actually expelled.
Ah yes. The Wyld Fae. I am not certain they are actually members of the Accords. But there is no reason for them not to be either. So I will hedge that any of the "independent" rulers of the Wyld (Kringle, the Erlking etc) are indeed members. What's really interesting is something like Vadderung who is both Kringle and himself (and possibly other personas). Are they all separate members of the Accords?
Carlos says everyone is sending representatives. And Jim did say we might see a hint of Jade one day. So I am going to keep an eye out. It probably will be a subtle appearance. But you are quite right that the Jade Court would be members.
My mistake, in White Knight Harry says there are roughly 20 Freeholding Lords under the Accords. So I have mixed things up. The impression is every major supernatural power is a part of the accords.
So in reality, it's more like 15 other Freeholding Lords. And who knows how many other organisations.
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... The really interesting case is the Denarians. I would think as they are repeat offenders of breaking the rules (and Nicodemus seems to represent them) they might be off the Accords. I get what you're saying about them being punished. But they weren't explicitly kicked out. Something to be aware of is that they were not kicked out for breaking the laws of hospitality or such, but specifically for breaking Mab's own Accords. Repeatedly. Mab was sending a message. But as far as I can tell they were not actually expelled ...
I can't cite the source, but I believe Nick has lost Accorded status.
There's a question as to whether each Denarian is separately signatory, or if they were signatory as a group.
I presume, if Nick is out, that all of the Denarians who were active on that mission are also out; and if Nick signed as the "head" of the group, then they're ALL outside the Accords now (unless one or more of them have re-joined as independents).
Ivy would know, if they signed. I do NOT expect she would be happy about that!.
... any other surviving Red Court vampire.
I think a group of Ramps could have survived if they were out in the far reaches of the Nevernever, beyond reach of the spells cast in the Real World. A sunrise or three would purge it enough to be safe. Although with the Red King and the LoON's out of the picture, all those Ramps would be lesser powers.
But there's another thing: the Ramps inside the flesh-mask were something completely other. Is there a race of nevernever beings, who never came to the world to Rampire-ize here? The Ick seemed to be of the same sort, with a rubbery black body...
So there's at least 2 ways Jim could play "Return of the Ramps;" I presume there are others.
... Ah yes. The Wyld Fae. I am not certain they are actually members of the Accords. But there is no reason for them not to be either. So I will hedge that any of the "independent" rulers of the Wyld (Kringle, the Erlking etc) are indeed members. What's really interesting is something like Vadderung who is both Kringle and himself (and possibly other personas). Are they all separate members of the Accords?
I am pretty sure all of Faerie are members of the Accords. Mab will have insisted the "independent" rulers sign, and she'd just have said "All you others, without any oaths of fealty or alleigance to a greater power -- you ARE bound by the Accords, and I will personally punish you for violating them."
My best guess is that it was part of setting things up when Winter took over the Outer Gates.
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As to all the beings who obey things like the laws of hospitality, that may have nothing to do with the Accords. I believe the Accords are described as the Geneva Convention{s} of the supernatural world. The Geneva Conventions are largely a codification of preexisting norms of how warfare should be conducted that have been specifically agreed to, or not, by various nations. International law is way older than the Geneva Conventions. The laws of hospitality, or other supernatural norms, may be in the Accords because they predate them and it was easy to get most supernatural nations to sign on to those provisions.
While practicing the norms in the Accords suggests that one is a member, it doesn't necessitate it. For example, Shiro has participated in many duels. He was familiar with the Accorded process. The Knights are not members of the Accords.
I can't cite the source, but I believe Nick has lost Accorded status.
I think it's explicitly stated in SG, but it might just be implied.
But there's another thing: the Ramps inside the flesh-mask were something completely other. Is there a race of nevernever beings, who never came to the world to Rampire-ize here?
Their skeletons remain behind after being killed, so they are at least in part natives to the real world.
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From Skin Game, chapter 51:
“Marcone is not someone to cross lightly,” I said. “Not only that, but he’s a member of the Accords.”
“I’m not,” Nicodemus said. “Not any longer.”
Nic declared he is not a member of the Accords. He didn’t say we, which would indicate all of the Denarians. Clearly he and Tessa were on the outs over this mission- Tessa didn’t want to lose Deidre (though it didn’t seem to be out of any sense of love, but rather unwillingness to lose the asset she had cultivated).
The Fallen are big deals on their own. I wouldn’t be surprised if the smarter ones who have been active since the Accords came into being signed on individually. They certainly have the chops to do so.
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On the thread, "Peace Talks: Who are the signatories of the Accords?" a Rampire subtopic has arisen, which I pull to a new thread because I think it's a substantive digression... plus, I was already thinking of launching a Ramp thread! I began this as a Reply" in that thread, but then thought to spin it off... so I just re-titled my "Reply" post, partly to see if this will launch a new thread (edit -- I see it just re-titles, but keeps it in-thread).
... Their skeletons remain behind after being killed, so they are at least in part natives to the real world.
Excellent point!
But... maybe that's just the ones who were humans that got turned? Maybe the basic creature has some sort of "natural" (never human) existence, native to the Nevernever? Rampires, after all, mostly cannot stand daylight, which is usually a sign of a Nevernever-sourced creature (a few of the oldest/strongest could do it sheltering within a fleshmask).
Also, the black & rubbery substance and flesh of the Ick seems to have been the same sort as the black & rubbery "natural form" of the Ramp's. Was the Ick some sort of ... I dunno, Ramp Gorilla or Grizzly-Bear? Or was the Ick a summoned Neverneverian beastie?
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Drakul is probably one of the more interesting freeholding lords for potential insight into the bigger world-building, both for his connection to the black court through Dracula and potentially also the Outsiders. A representative would be a bit of a letdown, unless Kincaid has returned to his employ (which I kind of doubt).
And the Blamps are still technically members. I recall Harry narrating at some point that one of the reasons many clued people are reluctant to sign on to the Accords is that they don't want the obligation to be a good host to things like a blampire.
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And the Blamps are still technically members. I recall Harry narrating at some point that one of the reasons many clued people are reluctant to sign on to the Accords is that they don't want the obligation to be a good host to things like a blampire.
Yeah.
I'm expecting Mavra to show up at Peace Talks. She was apparently a pretty potent warlock...
Then Harry gave her the Word of Kemmler, noting that it gives all sorts of power over Blampires.
So we'll be seeing Queen Mavra, with a united Black Court behind her. And Blampires can spread themselves really quickly. So they could be much more powerful -- assuming Mavra kept them disciplined and discreet -- than anybody expects.
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Part of the Black Court weaknessess in addition to everyone knowing how to kill them, WOJ is that they power up by killing. The smart ones wait for Plagues and Wars to power up.
I also speculate from information in Paranet Papers, that they might have both been allies and an enemy of Kemmler. The Black Court Purge started around 1899 according to Simon Pietrovichs letters, by the time of the Russian Revolution the last strongholds were holding out against the Purge. Kemmler could have used them both as a desperate ally and as an enemy against his own power growth. Not dissimmilar to how Nicodemus viewed the Red Court, which he explained during Small Favour.
We also have WOJ confirmation the White Court helped with the dissemination of Bram Strokers book. Kind of a reverse Venatori campaign. (Side Note. I have an RPG Character who I wrote in being critical to that for Paranet Papers)
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Part of the Black Court weaknessess in addition to everyone knowing how to kill them, WOJ is that they power up by killing. The smart ones wait for Plagues and Wars to power up ...
Well then, they should be fine...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
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Part of the Black Court weaknessess in addition to everyone knowing how to kill them, WOJ is that they power up by killing. The smart ones wait for Plagues and Wars to power up.
I also speculate from information in Paranet Papers, that they might have both been allies and an enemy of Kemmler. The Black Court Purge started around 1899 according to Simon Pietrovichs letters, by the time of the Russian Revolution the last strongholds were holding out against the Purge. Kemmler could have used them both as a desperate ally and as an enemy against his own power growth. Not dissimmilar to how Nicodemus Said he viewed the Red Court, which he explained during Small Favour.
We also have WOJ confirmation the White Court helped with the dissemination of Bram Strokers book. Kind of a reverse Venatori campaign. (Side Note. I have an RPG Character who I wrote in being critical to that for Paranet Papers)
A little correction here. Nothing Nicodemus says can be taken as true. In this case he was trying to recruit Harry so of course he lied.
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A little correction here. Nothing Nicodemus says can be taken as true. In this case he was trying to recruit Harry ...
While while you are absolutely correct...
... so of course he lied.
This does not follow from the prior.
We don't actually know; Nic may have been lying, or not.
Nic cannot be relied upon to lie; he isn't one of those automatons from the old logic-puzzles, that is so predictable. He lies when it suits his purpose, and tells the truth when that suits his purpose.
I am perfectly willing to believe that Nic found the Ramps to be more often a nuisance methan an asset, and would readily offer them up as bargaining chip; particularly if he could -- like a stock trader with "insider knowledge" -- gain special benefit from his advance warning. He may have been being perfectly truthful.
Recall that Lasciel's Shadow (long before "Lash" became an ally of Harry's) was entirely willing to be helpful and truthful, as part of tempting Harry to take up a coin.
Really, Nic saying something is hardly ever an indication, either way, of whether that thing is true or false.
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While while you are absolutely correct...
This does not follow from the prior.
We don't actually know; Nic may have been lying, or not.
Nic cannot be relied upon to lie; he isn't one of those automatons from the old logic-puzzles, that is so predictable. He lies when it suits his purpose, and tells the truth when that suits his purpose.
I am perfectly willing to believe that Nic found the Ramps to be more often a nuisance methan an asset, and would readily offer them up as bargaining chip; particularly if he could -- like a stock trader with "insider knowledge" -- gain special benefit from his advance warning. He may have been being perfectly truthful.
Recall that Lasciel's Shadow (long before "Lash" became an ally of Harry's) was entirely willing to be helpful and truthful, as part of tempting Harry to take up a coin.
Really, Nic saying something is hardly ever an indication, either way, of whether that thing is true or false.
Except when he is saying something to influence you it is always safer to assume he is lying. He may use truth to build up to something but the crucial thing is a lie. There is no reason to assume Nicodemus is even interested in the reds that much. They are not part of his story and the suffering they cause can only help him. But there is all reason for Nicodemus to make Harry think he can be an ally against Harry’s most Important and hated enemy at that time. He probably knows about Susan and Harry so his statements about the reds are too much in line with what Harry wants. If something is too good to be true it is probably false.
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Arjan, that might be your theory. But it is conjecture. You can't prove Nicodemus was lying because there is no evidence to say he was/is working with the Red Court. So best to stick to facts or qualify your statements e.g. Nicodemus was probably lying because...[Evidence A]. Saying an absolute statment outright (like Nicodemus lied when...) when you don't qualify or provide evidence is both poor argument and derails the conversation.
Which isn't to say that he might have lied when attempting to recruit Harry. But as I outline in my other thread, https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53453.0.html (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53453.0.html), I think Nicodemus would benfit greatly from the destruction of the Red Court. As would several other villains.
"If something is too good to be true, it is probably false" is a really strange argument to make in the setting of the Dresden Files. Michael Carpenter is "too good to be true" as is Uriel, Heaven etc. Are you saying that they don't exist or that they are in fact evil?
Con - that's an interesting theory. I quite like it. I wonder though if the White Court also used the opportunity to get rid of Kemmler etc as he was a threat in the long term.
G33k - I would be surprised if she became Queen Mavra. I think that would have been noticed by now. And something tells me that the Darkhallow is only open to mortals - other supernatural's would have to use different means I think. I can't back that up...but it feels right. Something to do with the Hecatean Hags in Welcome to the Jungle. But even if so, I think Mavra is the proxy or servant (or both) for a being far greater. My guess is Drakul. But whoever it is, I think they wanted the Word of Kemmler and now they have it. Who knows why.
Snark Knight - I quite agree. I am thoroughly hoping we seen him on stage in the next book or two. But if we don't I would say that he is a seriously major player...maybe bigger than the Mothers. Word is Jim is saving the really big characters for the trilogy (like the Devil etc). Then again, Uriel has already shown up. So I am hopeful. And yes, in White Knight I think Harry mentions that most people don't want to be Freeholding Lords when they realise that they might have to host a Blampire etc. So only the really powerful ones even bother. Which makes Marcone very special.
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Arjan, that might be your theory. But it is conjecture. You can't prove Nicodemus was lying because there is no evidence to say he was/is working with the Red Court. So best to stick to facts or qualify your statements e.g. Nicodemus was probably lying because...[Evidence A]. Saying an absolute statment outright (like Nicodemus lied when...) when you don't qualify or provide evidence is both poor argument and derails the conversation.
There is a really small chance that he was not lying on that specific point (it is well attested that he must be lying somewhere in every speech) but really do you want to bet your soul on it?
His story is specially crafted for what he knows about Harry. We know he lies often. Do your math.
Which isn't to say that he might have lied when attempting to recruit Harry. But as I outline in my other thread, https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53453.0.html (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53453.0.html), I think Nicodemus would benfit greatly from the destruction of the Red Court. As would several other villains.
"If something is too good to be true, it is probably false" is a really strange argument to make in the setting of the Dresden Files. Michael Carpenter is "too good to be true" as is Uriel, Heaven etc. Are you saying that they don't exist or that they are in fact evil?
If it comes from a known con man
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Except when he is saying something to influence you it is always safer to assume he is lying. He may use truth to build up to something but the crucial thing is a lie. There is no reason to assume Nicodemus is even interested in the reds that much. They are not part of his story and the suffering they cause can only help him. But there is all reason for Nicodemus to make Harry think he can be an ally against Harry’s most Important and hated enemy at that time. He probably knows about Susan and Harry so his statements about the reds are too much in line with what Harry wants. If something is too good to be true it is probably false.
He wouldn't be as dangerous if it was easy to tell the truths from the lies - Forthill mentions at one point that it sometimes takes centuries for church historians to untangle them.
But all the interactions in Small Favor have to be viewed through the lens that Nicodemus knows about Nemesis and the Outsiders' agenda to break in and cause Empty Night, while Harry doesn't yet at that point. If he was real about anything, it was anger that some of his were playing for the other side. I think Hell and the Outsiders have competing visions for what kind of apocalypse they want.
With the Red Court pretty much publicly in cahoots with the Outsiders, there's every reason to believe Nicodemus was down with eliminating them. Whatever marginal gain the Denarians get out of the global suffering caused by the Reds can be replaced easily enough that it's not worth leaving an adversary's asset alone.
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If all your competitors within your own organisation are black court vampires and you know the perfect spells to control/destroy/whatever it is, then you (Mavra) has a really good shot at becoming the leader. I guess that was what g33k meant.
At least that was what I thought :-)
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G33k - I would be surprised if she became Queen Mavra. I think that would have been noticed by now. And something tells me that the Darkhallow is only open to mortals - other supernatural's would have to use different means I think. I can't back that up...but it feels right. Something to do with the Hecatean Hags in Welcome to the Jungle. But even if so, I think Mavra is the proxy or servant (or both) for a being far greater. My guess is Drakul. But whoever it is, I think they wanted the Word of Kemmler and now they have it. Who knows why ...
If all your competitors within your own organisation are black court vampires and you know the perfect spells to control/destroy/whatever it is, then you (Mavra) has a really good shot at becoming the leader. I guess that was what g33k meant.
At least that was what I thought :-)
TrueMonk has understood my point.
I wasn't suggesting she'd become "Queen Mavra" via a Darkhallow -- a demigoddess -- just the most-powerful (by far) noble of the Black Court, because she's a powerful warlock/BCV who knows Kemmlerian necromancy.
WoJ says the BCV survivors of the "Stoker-pocalypse" are the most poweful, the most ruthless, the most practical.
With Mavra as the undisputed leader -- to prevent a bunch of internecine backstabbing, and even the mutual fear of such -- they could unite again. Begin the quiet process of re-building their numbers, strengthening and restoring their power-base, etc... all very quietly, carefully; no more Constance Bushnell's!
Plus: Mavra showing up again (under aegis of a major Accorded event) would cause all sorts of anger & pain for Harry, so of course it will happen.
I can imagine her smirk as she publicly thanks Harry Dresden for giving her the power she needed to re-unite the Black Court.
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Arjan - I disagree. What evidence do you have that it was a small chance? Where is it "well arrested" that he lies in every speech?
And why would I bet my soul? What does that have to do with anything?
We know he lies. So does literally every human.
Nicodemus, strictly speaking, isn't a con man. Also, if it comes from an unknown con man does that then mean "if it's too good to be true, it probably IS" ? Do you see the flaw in that argument?
And nothing so far proves that he lies about what he said to Dresden. Even if Harry had taken up the Coin, he would have never followed Nicodemus fully and would have expected his aid in defeating the Reds. And Nicodemus (even assuming he didn't care about destroying the Reds) would have likely aided Dresden as it would have meant Dresden would have owed him and remained loyal. Marcone does the same thing all the time with Harry, and tbh it has worked out very well for him. Harry isn't exactly loyal to him, yet Marcone has risen from a powerful mob boss to a super-powerful crime lord with supernatural connections, able to take on even modest powers. Storm Front Marcone is nothing compared to current Marcone. I imagine Nicodemus was much the same, only he has been at it 2000 years and is less about acquiring personal power as much as completing an unknown, highly personal mission.
Snark Knight - Exactly right. Nicodemus is dangerous, as are the Fallen, because of their ability to lie well. It is precisely because he only lies when it will have maximum effect, rather than an endless stream of bull****, that makes him so formidable. In all of his many interactions with Dresden, particularly in Skin Game when they are working together, he actually lies very few times at all. He omits details and is often vague, but he isn't a twisty as a Fae either.
And I think you're on the money about the competing interests of Hell and Outside. From what Jim has said, Outsiders want the party to end completely. Which isn't actually what Hell wants (although he hasn't said what it IS that Hell wants - I think it's domination versus obliteration).
G33k - Fair enough, my mistake. It certainly would give her a serious advantage. I am curious though if Blampires can actually use Necromancy. So far we have only seen mortals do it. Which isn't to say they can't of course. But Harry seems to think the magic that Vamps use is different in quality to Necromancy. But then again, much of that sort of thing might be outdated by now. It will be interesting to see how it has played out. It would be very awesome if the Black Court were secretly building up in quiet. Because apparently that is entirely against their M.O. - they gathered power quickly and brutally when they did attempt to rise (which scared the stuffing out of everyone). I think it would be a seriously terrifying moment for Harry to realise the return of the Black Court was imminent.
Isn't it interesting that we haven't seen Mavra since Dead Beat? And now she shows up when the White Council is about to take a big hit? Also, she often shows up when Cowl is around. Not always (unless she was in diguise in White Night). Also, ghouls also always seem to show up when she is around. I wonder what the relationship between the Vampires and the Ghouls is?
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... I am curious though if Blampires can actually use Necromancy. So far we have only seen mortals do it. Which isn't to say they can't of course.
Well, Mavra has shown herself to be a pretty competent & potent warlock already. I think she can do most things that a mortal wizard can. Given what Harry says to her about the Word of Kemmler, I'd think Blamps have innate ties to necromancy, and can use it readily... if anything, more easily than other sorts of magic!
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From what Jim has said, Outsiders want the party to end completely. Which isn't actually what Hell wants (although he hasn't said what it IS that Hell wants - I think it's domination versus obliteration).
My suspicion is that the Fallen are actually primarily interested in saving their own asses from the Outsiders. I think the core of the dispute between Heaven and Hell in the DV is that Hell is willing to use literal scorched earth tactics to win, vs Heaven insisting on threading the needle of a much more difficult strategy to keep the Outsiders Outside without catastrophic damage to Creation to do it. Or, put another way, whether humanity and the creation are worth risking existence itself, including their own?
It's the best fit I can find for Deirdre saying they're "saving the world" at a moment when she has no reasons left to lie. She's going to her death, she knows there's no way they're going to recruit Harry, and she's expecting Nic to eliminate him shortly after she's gone anyway. It also fits with Nic thinking he might someday be a saint. I think most of the Denarians who are willing partners have bought into the idea that a pretty good chance of saving a battered fraction of something is better than gambling on a long shot of a clean win when losing means Empty Night.
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Not to be pedantic, but I don't think she is a Warlock. She is a Wizard but I think the fact the is already a vampire precludes her from becoming a corrupted Wizard - which is what a Warlock is. She isn't mortal enough.
I agree though that there is a link between Blampires and Necromancy. I suspect that it was involved in their creation which is also why they are particularly vulnerable to it. Perhaps it also gives them an advantage as Necromancers. Curiously though, we have never seen Mavra or another Vampire of any Court use Necromancy. Which says to me they might not be able to at all.
SK - we are on the same page I think. And it's a fair argument from their perspective. Of course that sort of argument doesn't sound so good if you're a mortal. But hey, we all have to pay a price right? My only other thought is that perhaps the Fallen are resentful that mortals have Free Will and create spin-off universes, whereas they themselves cannot. Perhaps it's both!
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Arjan - I disagree. What evidence do you have that it was a small chance? Where is it "well arrested" that he lies in every speech?
Their whole career as described in the books. They can’t help it, it is in their nature. It is what the fallen wants them to do. They even do it when it is in their best interest not to lie. Nicodemus would have had the spear if he had not lied about his goals. Harry’s plan in small favor and skin game depended on the Nicodemus betraying him. It is a safe bet.
Harry’s plans in skin game and small favor are based on it.
And why would I bet my soul? What does that have to do with anything?
That is what happens if you start believing what Nicodemus says, it is what the fallen are after. Just like everything what Uriel does is about saving souls everything the fallen do is about souls as well.
We know he lies. So does literally every human.
Except he has that coin for two thousand years. It made him kill his own daughter. He is not his own man anymore whatever he says because lying starts with lying to yourself. He lies more than humans do. It is his default mode of operation. He believes in it. Both Harry and Vadderung assume he will do so for everything important.
Every truth he says is just a buildup to the important lie.
Nicodemus, strictly speaking, isn't a con man. Also, if it comes from an unknown con man does that then mean "if it's too good to be true, it probably IS" ? Do you see the flaw in that argument?
It is a very good way not to get conned. Because that is what the fallen do. They offer you that nice and shiny with all kinds of powers and enslave you.
That is a con game.
And nothing so far proves that he lies about what he said to Dresden. Even if Harry had taken up the Coin, he would have never followed Nicodemus fully and would have expected his aid in defeating the Reds.
Maybe in the beginning but then his goals would shift when the fallen would get more and more control of him and in the end he would kill Maggie.
Because that is what the fallen do. It is the main reason he goes to Mab in Changes and not to Lasciel. That is what he told her anyway. Even if Nicodemus promises to save Maggie he can not be relied upon.
Nicodemus goal is not the reds, it is Harry’s soul. Nowhere in the books Nicodemus does anything that proves he cares about the reds one way or another?
To understand the fallen think Faust. It is the deal with the devil situation. Also the reason why they fell. It is all about humanity, they want it to fail.
One soul at a time or a lot of them through the misery they spread.
And Nicodemus (even assuming he didn't care about destroying the Reds) would have likely aided Dresden as it would have meant Dresden would have owed him and remained loyal.
The devil may promise you all kind of things if you do a deal with him. That does not mean he cares about these things. Nicodemus would promise Harry the world if he took up the coin. But his goal would be Harry’s soul. Not the reds.
And Nicodemus wouldn’t care about his promises either.
Marcone does the same thing all the time with Harry, and tbh it has worked out very well for him. Harry isn't exactly loyal to him, yet Marcone has risen from a powerful mob boss to a super-powerful crime lord with supernatural connections, able to take on even modest powers. Storm Front Marcone is nothing compared to current Marcone. I imagine Nicodemus was much the same, only he has been at it 2000 years and is less about acquiring personal power as much as completing an unknown, highly personal mission.
Marcone and Harry have soulgazed. They both know exactly what kind of person the other one is.
Snark Knight - Exactly right. Nicodemus is dangerous, as are the Fallen, because of their ability to lie well. It is precisely because he only lies when it will have maximum effect, rather than an endless stream of bull****, that makes him so formidable. In all of his many interactions with Dresden, particularly in Skin Game when they are working together, he actually lies very few times at all. He omits details and is often vague, but he isn't a twisty as a Fae either.
And I think you're on the money about the competing interests of Hell and Outside. From what Jim has said, Outsiders want the party to end completely. Which isn't actually what Hell wants (although he hasn't said what it IS that Hell wants - I think it's domination versus obliteration).
G33k - Fair enough, my mistake. It certainly would give her a serious advantage. I am curious though if Blampires can actually use Necromancy. So far we have only seen mortals do it. Which isn't to say they can't of course. But Harry seems to think the magic that Vamps use is different in quality to Necromancy. But then again, much of that sort of thing might be outdated by now. It will be interesting to see how it has played out. It would be very awesome if the Black Court were secretly building up in quiet. Because apparently that is entirely against their M.O. - they gathered power quickly and brutally when they did attempt to rise (which scared the stuffing out of everyone). I think it would be a seriously terrifying moment for Harry to realise the return of the Black Court was imminent.
Isn't it interesting that we haven't seen Mavra since Dead Beat? And now she shows up when the White Council is about to take a big hit? Also, she often shows up when Cowl is around. Not always (unless she was in diguise in White Night). Also, ghouls also always seem to show up when she is around. I wonder what the relationship between the Vampires and the Ghouls is?
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Nicodemus is not a Fallen. We are talking about him, not them. So "their" and "they" don't apply. The Fallen doesn't necessarily wish them to lie. We don't really know what the Fallen want apart from corrupting mortals. We don't know why. It's never been addressed. And you can see in my post above and in Snark Knight's what our theories are about they.
Harry's plan in Skin Game was based off the fact he and the Denarians are allies of convenience, but not friends. Harry was forced to work with them and he has a highly antagonistic relationship with them. If he didn't I doubt they would have betrayed him as they want him on side. Recruiting is what they do. Much the same in Small Favor, the main difference is that Harry is actively working against them. Both times Harry is betting they underestimate him.
Not sure how me believing Nicodemus will lose me my very own soul. I assume you are being hypothetical and using the royal "we"? But again, it's about Nicodemus not about the Fallen.
Actually, that negates his choice and shows you don't understand one of the central tenets of the series. Nicodemus made his own choice. Anduriel did not make him do anything. Because in the Dresden Files, no being can make a mortal choose to do something. Nicodemus chose to kill his daughter. I agree that he lies to himself. And that he probably lies more than some humans. Not more than most. He isn't a compulsive liar. Most of what he says is true. His default mode of operation (as you put it) is doing whatever it takes to achieve his mission. Lying is one of those things. But so does every character. The only characters who cannot (unless compromised by magic) are the Fae. The Angels seem to have enough choice in terms of choosing when to lie. Which makes interactions with them FAR more dangerous because of their incredible knowledge and perspective. I don't argue that he uses truth to support more powerful lies. But you would have it that he lies constantly and compulsively. He doesn't lie in every speech or interaction, and you are still yet to provide even a shred of text to support your claim.
I think you don't understand the phrase your using, or what my argument was. So I will endevour to be clear.
You said that "If it's too good to be true, then it probably isn't true" and meant that in terms of when a known "con man" is talking to you.
I am saying if you are unaware that the con man is in fact a con man, why does that mean that whatever they are telling you is more likely to be true? Why is their truthfulness dependent on whether you know they are a con man or not? You're argument doesn't make sense.
I have read the books and am perfectly aware of how the Fallen operate - based on Harry's encounters and perspective. But how they operate is irrelevant to your point about when to trust a known or unknown con artist. Not to mention, you keep conflating the Fallen with the Denarians. A Denarian is the combination of the Fallen in the Coin and the human bearer. A Fallen is the Fallen Angel that no longer resides in Heaven. The Fallen, and indeed Denarians, may run cons. But Nicodemus is not a Fallen. He is the human part of the Denarian, which is a title and an office. Not a being. Nicodemus doesn't go round pretending to be different people and running various scams. He doesn't need to. He introduces himself as Nicodemus, and does whatever he has to to get what he wants. He might lie or trick from time to time, but he isn't what is considered a con artist, which is a type of professional scammer. It isn't his profession or his office. He is a leader of a a pretty nasty group that is trying to cause chaos and misery, also while saving the world (whatever that means to them).
Pure speculation again. Why would Nicodemus stop helping Harry with the Reds? Once he finished with them I imagine he would try and convince Harry to help him with his longer game. But as you can see he doesn't force any of the Denarians to stay with him. Tessa and her lot choose to do other things. Choice is important to a bunch of beings that felt they were denied it. Lash makes that very clear. And why would any of that lead Dresden to killing his daughter, just because Nicodemus did? Where are you getting that? In no way has it ever been implied that Harry would end up murdering his child.
He goes to Mab because he thinks that's the easiest one to get out of. He commits suicide immediately after. If he had chosen the Denarians I think he would have still killed the Reds, Jim says he would have been successful whatever option he took. The main difference would be what the series would have become. Let alone Harry the Necromancer or Harry the Necrogod. What Harry tells Mab is partly true. But he omitted his plan to kill himself (as he had wiped his memory) and was unaware of the Fallen's influence in pushing that plan. He might have actually chosen something else if the Fallen hadn't tried to remove him.
I have never said Nicodemus' main goal is the Reds. But it is a goal to remove them, at some point. He actually tells his reasons to Dresden. My other thread that I referenced in my previous post discusses those reasons and the why. But to summarise, for someone who is trying to "save the world" or perhaps end it, the Red Court are a major problem in the long term as they likely didn't want to be ruled by Nicodemus (if that was a goal) or destroyed like the rest of the universe (if that was his goal). And how do you know that his main goal is Harry's soul? Why do you even think he cares? From what we have in the series and WOJ, it seems his end goals involve the destruction of humanity and perhaps the universe.
The Fallen may have wanted to Fall but we don't have much to go on. What is clear is that they found it abhorrent to serve TWG and have his Will and rules govern them. Lash tells Harry this early on. Not only that, but as Snark Knight and I were discussing above it is possible that the Fallen may have an issue that mortals have Free Will and the danger that poses to Reality and by extension, themselves. They don't want the Old Ones and the Outsiders to end the universe. Except for perhaps certain rebel Fallen who just want to burn the house down. But Hell quite possibly seem humanity as a massive security risk.
Nicodemus doesn't fight for souls. The Fallen do. The Angels do. Nicodemus just wants Harry on his team rather than against him. But even he is very prepared to kill Harry if necessary. Nicodemus isn't the Devil. Don't confuse the two.
The Devil cares about souls. But this is because, as Jim puts it, "he has a argument with GOD". The second part of that quote also says that in order to have an argument you have to have a universe (which puts limits on the Devil) and so in some ways, Nicodemus is more dangerous to the universe than the Devil. Which implies all sorts of bad things.
Nicodemus doesn't have to care about his promises. But if he wanted Harry to work for him, he is more likely to honour those promises. And he DID want Harry to work for him. I quite suspect if Harry were more agreeable he would find Nicodemus a very different type of colleague. Which doesn't make him good.
Indeed, I suspect it would be easier for Nicodemus to convince Harry if he knew him better. It might even be easier if Dresden knew Nicodemus' soul (depending on what's in there). Marcone has convinced Harry that he is worth working with from time to time because there is some good still in him, and because he is better than the alternative (which is chaos). Harry isn't stupid though and knows eventually Marcone will become too great a threat. Regardless, it would be to Nicodemus' benefit to honour his promises to Harry about the Reds both because the Reds were a problem to his long-term plans and because he wanted Dresden's loyalty. And Dresden as an ally is a very powerful weapon to have. As many, many characters have realised.
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Nicodemus is not a Fallen.
After 2000 years Nicodemus is the puppet of Anduriel.
We are talking about him, not them. So "their" and "they" don't apply. The Fallen doesn't necessarily wish them to lie.
The Fallen want them to do evil, to sin if you want to use that word. It is all about his soul. Nicodemus might have failed in his main objective, Anduriel had a wonderful day.
We don't really know what the Fallen want apart from corrupting mortals.
We have all the mythology Jim must have used for the fallen. Faust, paradise lost, etc. We have a pretty good idea what the fallen want.
We don't know why. It's never been addressed. And you can see in my post above and in Snark Knight's what our theories are about they.
Harry's plan in Skin Game was based off the fact he and the Denarians are allies of convenience, but not friends. Harry was forced to work with them and he has a highly antagonistic relationship with them. If he didn't I doubt they would have betrayed him as they want him on side. Recruiting is what they do. Much the same in Small Favor, the main difference is that Harry is actively working against them. Both times Harry is betting they underestimate him.
Not sure how me believing Nicodemus will lose me my very own soul. I assume you are being hypothetical and using the royal "we"? But again, it's about Nicodemus not about the Fallen.
Listening to the devil is dangerous. You listen to the snake and before you know it you are thrown out of paradise.
Actually, that negates his choice and shows you don't understand one of the central tenets of the series. Nicodemus made his own choice.
Sure but so would anyone who listened to the fallen. And that is what the knights are for, they keep trying. But that does not negate the point that in Nicodemus case it is pretty hopeless.
Free will is one theme and theoretically you always have it but nature is another theme and nature is molded by your choices. Too many bad choices and it will be extremely difficult to change your path. That is why warlocks are killed. That is why nobody believes Nicodemus will change his ways. But it is theoretically possible and Michael tried.
Anduriel did not make him do anything.
In the same sense as Lasciel or Mab did not make You do anything and can not make You do anything. Theoretically true but in practice they succeed quite often
Because in the Dresden Files, no being can make a mortal choose to do something. Nicodemus chose to kill his daughter. I agree that he lies to himself. And that he probably lies more than some humans. Not more than most. He isn't a compulsive liar. Most of what he says is true. His default mode of operation (as you put it) is doing whatever it takes to achieve his mission.
In Small favor he chose to betray even when he knew he needed Harry to betray the swords purpose. In Skin game he chose to lie even when saying the truth would have given him his main objective, the spear. He lies and betrays against his own best interest because he believes lying is the best way to serve his interests. That is the influence of the fallen.
Lying is one of those things. But so does every character. The only characters who cannot (unless compromised by magic) are the Fae. The Angels seem to have enough choice in terms of choosing when to lie. Which makes interactions with them FAR more dangerous because of their incredible knowledge and perspective. I don't argue that he uses truth to support more powerful lies. But you would have it that he lies constantly and compulsively. He doesn't lie in every speech or interaction, and you are still yet to provide even a shred of text to support your claim.
I think you don't understand the phrase your using, or what my argument was. So I will endevour to be clear.
You said that "If it's too good to be true, then it probably isn't true" and meant that in terms of when a known "con man" is talking to you.
I am saying if you are unaware that the con man is in fact a con man, why does that mean that whatever they are telling you is more likely to be true? Why is their truthfulness dependent on whether you know they are a con man or not? You're argument doesn't make sense.
If something is too good to be true what is more likely? True or not?
And now you add the reputation of the speaker to it. Uriel vs Nicodemus.
I have read the books and am perfectly aware of how the Fallen operate - based on Harry's encounters and perspective. But how they operate is irrelevant to your point about when to trust a known or unknown con artist. Not to mention, you keep conflating the Fallen with the Denarians. A Denarian is the combination of the Fallen in the Coin and the human bearer. A Fallen is the Fallen Angel that no longer resides in Heaven. The Fallen, and indeed Denarians, may run cons. But Nicodemus is not a Fallen. He is the human part of the Denarian, which is a title and an office. Not a being. Nicodemus doesn't go round pretending to be different people and running various scams. He doesn't need to. He introduces himself as Nicodemus, and does whatever he has to to get what he wants. He might lie or trick from time to time, but he isn't what is considered a con artist, which is a type of professional scammer. It isn't his profession or his office. He is a leader of a a pretty nasty group that is trying to cause chaos and misery, also while saving the world (whatever that means to them).
I know the difference but the independence of the denarians is a lie to make it easier to take the coin. A really independent Nicodemus wouldn't have killed his daughter. They lie to you and you may not even hear other peoples words correctly.
Pure speculation again. Why would Nicodemus stop helping Harry with the Reds?
Because it is too risky and too difficult? The devil deceives you and often does not give you what you really wants but something else.
Once he finished with them I imagine he would try and convince Harry to help him with his longer game. But as you can see he doesn't force any of the Denarians to stay with him. Tessa and her lot choose to do other things. Choice is important to a bunch of beings that felt they were denied it. Lash makes that very clear. And why would any of that lead Dresden to killing his daughter, just because Nicodemus did? Where are you getting that? In no way has it ever been implied that Harry would end up murdering his child.
He goes to Mab because he thinks that's the easiest one to get out of. He commits suicide immediately after. If he had chosen the Denarians I think he would have still killed the Reds, Jim says he would have been successful whatever option he took. The main difference would be what the series would have become. Let alone Harry the Necromancer or Harry the Necrogod. What Harry tells Mab is partly true. But he omitted his plan to kill himself (as he had wiped his memory) and was unaware of the Fallen's influence in pushing that plan. He might have actually chosen something else if the Fallen hadn't tried to remove him.
He also chooses Mab because she will keep her word and deliver.
I have never said Nicodemus' main goal is the Reds. But it is a goal to remove them, at some point. He actually tells his reasons to Dresden. My other thread that I referenced in my previous post discusses those reasons and the why. But to summarise, for someone who is trying to "save the world" or perhaps end it, the Red Court are a major problem in the long term as they likely didn't want to be ruled by Nicodemus (if that was a goal) or destroyed like the rest of the universe (if that was his goal). And how do you know that his main goal is Harry's soul? Why do you even think he cares? From what we have in the series and WOJ, it seems his end goals involve the destruction of humanity and perhaps the universe.
The Fallen may have wanted to Fall but we don't have much to go on. What is clear is that they found it abhorrent to serve TWG and have his Will and rules govern them. Lash tells Harry this early on. Not only that, but as Snark Knight and I were discussing above it is possible that the Fallen may have an issue that mortals have Free Will and the danger that poses to Reality and by extension, themselves. They don't want the Old Ones and the Outsiders to end the universe. Except for perhaps certain rebel Fallen who just want to burn the house down. But Hell quite possibly seem humanity as a massive security risk.
Nicodemus doesn't fight for souls. The Fallen do. The Angels do. Nicodemus just wants Harry on his team rather than against him. But even he is very prepared to kill Harry if necessary. Nicodemus isn't the Devil. Don't confuse the two.
You overestimates Nicodemus independence. He had that coin for 2000 years.
The Devil cares about souls. But this is because, as Jim puts it, "he has a argument with GOD". The second part of that quote also says that in order to have an argument you have to have a universe (which puts limits on the Devil) and so in some ways, Nicodemus is more dangerous to the universe than the Devil. Which implies all sorts of bad things.
Nicodemus doesn't have to care about his promises. But if he wanted Harry to work for him, he is more likely to honour those promises. And he DID want Harry to work for him. I quite suspect if Harry were more agreeable he would find Nicodemus a very different type of colleague. Which doesn't make him good.
Indeed, I suspect it would be easier for Nicodemus to convince Harry if he knew him better. It might even be easier if Dresden knew Nicodemus' soul (depending on what's in there). Marcone has convinced Harry that he is worth working with from time to time because there is some good still in him, and because he is better than the alternative (which is chaos). Harry isn't stupid though and knows eventually Marcone will become too great a threat. Regardless, it would be to Nicodemus' benefit to honour his promises to Harry about the Reds both because the Reds were a problem to his long-term plans and because he wanted Dresden's loyalty. And Dresden as an ally is a very powerful weapon to have. As many, many characters have realised.
Nicodemus honoring his promises? that is against his nature. I wouldn't bet on it.
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Not to be pedantic, but I don't think she is a Warlock. She is a Wizard but I think the fact the is already a vampire precludes her from becoming a corrupted Wizard - which is what a Warlock is. She isn't mortal enough ...
I define "warlock" differently, but I suspect you're right that this is increasingly a pedantic and essentially pointless disagreement. Also, it's worth noting that what matters in the Dresdenverse -- if this iota of pedantry matters at all -- is how Jim thinks of the issue! ;D
FWIW, my definition of "warlock" is any magic user of ANY caliber (including the weaker "sub-wizard" ones) who uses Black Magic as freely as they use non-corruptive magic.
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... Every truth he says is just a buildup to the important lie.
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Nicodemus goal is not the reds, it is Harry’s soul. Nowhere in the books Nicodemus does anything that proves he cares about the reds one way or another?
Agreed that Nic (and Anduriel) & the rest of the "Denarian Crew" don't care about the Reds at all (other than to note them as one factor (among many) to be taken into account when laying plans they DO care about).
For that very reason, Nic would happily go along with a "Hurt the Reds" plan -- even work towards it, even see it through to completion -- if it resulted in a better shot at his goal of corrupting Harry.
I don't think he'd have given Harry anything close to the Bloodline ritual, though. He would have given Harry a substantive victory, lots of hurts to the Ramps, but with lots & lots of Reds still to tempt Harry further.
And further... and further...
And you know where it's all leading, eh?
From this perspective, Nic would have absolutely loved the Rampires: what a wonderful tool to corrupt a Starborn Wizard with!!!
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I know the difference but the independence of the denarians is a lie to make it easier to take the coin. A really independent Nicodemus wouldn't have killed his daughter.
I don't doubt Anduriel has been encouraging Nicodemus to be his worst self for 2000 years, but humans can do some pretty extreme and twisted things in pursuit of goals they see as important all on their own. A history book or news broadcast shows as much.
It could be that Nic started out somewhere in the middle of the moral bell curve, and corrupting him has been Anduriel's masterwork. But it's also quite possible Anduriel just lucked out in its coin landing with someone who had no conscience to start with - someone already almost as evil as Anduriel itself. Just tell him a goal he buys into, and watch him start cutting a swath through the world toward it of his own initiative.
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Snark Knight - Exactly. People don't need Coins or anything supernatural to be terrible.
Some have even speculated that Nicodemus might be Judas Ischariot. If so, Judas wasn't evil as such. He was sinful and greedy, and he pays the price. But not evil through and through. Indeed, some scholars have argued that Judas' betrayal is one of the most significant events in the story* and that without his betrayal the crucifixition couldn't have occured, and Jesus would not have died for the sins of man. In which case, according to Christianity we would all still be in peril/punishment from the original sin. *Not that I am necessarily saying that the events are not historical btw - a story can be factual or fictious. But it's the right term to describe the account.
G33k - Quite right. I think your definition is fair enough. But as you say, it would be good to see what Jim thinks!
Exactly. The Denarians don't need to Reds in the long-term. They contribute to the general misery and chaos in the short-term but are an impediment to the long-term designs of Nicodemus. Nicodemus benefits from keeping his word. I guess your argument is, would Anduriel have known of the impending Bloodline curse and told Dresden? My answer is yes because if he didn't tell Harry about it, Harry wouldn't have been as urgent and would have been killed off before he could start. And because it gives the Denarians a far better piece of leverage - Maggie. In fact, I suspect Nicodemus could have rallied as many as 20 or so Denarians - which is about the same number of Harry's combined strike force. And from what we have seen I think they would have been equally deadly when let loose. I doubt the forces of Heaven would have opposed them.
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Arjan-
Before I respond to your points I want to be clear about a few things. If you're going to make a statement you either need to qualify it (e.g. I think the Devil lies because...) or provide evidence (The Devil lies because in Skin Game...[Evidence A] etc). You also should answer points you quote directly. Non-sequitors and tangents derail the discussion. If you can't do one of those I won't continue to debate with you as it wastes my time and everyone else's. You're not the only one on this board who does this but currently you are the focus. I don't know you're background or how good your language skills are so if you need me to clarify what I am saying or simplify things I am happy to. But by not arguing properly we can't make progress and learn from one another. We might not reach a consensus or agree with one another, that's fine. But by completing avoiding points or making blanket absolute statements with no evidence means we can't move the discussion forward.
Now to your points.
After 2000 years Nicodemus is the puppet of Anduriel.
Quite possibly, but to what extent that is and how that works is largely unknown. What is clear is that Nicodemus isn't merely a meat suit. He isn't like Rasmussen, trapped in his own mind whilst the Fallen is in the driver's seat. Nicodemus is driving the car (his body and mind) and Anduriel is in the passenger seat whispering to him, very occasionally phyiscally assisting him. In Small Favor, Dresden hears Anduriel speak for the first time when he is suddenly attacked by Nicodemus. Anduriel says "At least it has some survival instinct". Which he clearly wished Dresden to hear (otherwise it would have said it to Nicodemus in his mind). Anduriel doesn't want to drive; like all really powerful people he has a driver take him where he wants to go. Nicodemus is that driver. I agree that Nicodemus might feel his is picking the destination and that Anduriel is actually nudging him, but Anduriel can't overide Nicodemus when he likes. Nicodemus still has to Choose what to do. Someone like Rasmussen has been terrified and beaten into submission (and tricked, because if he were clever enough he might realise he still gets to Choose). Nicodemus and all the Denarians who bear the name of the human vessel are not like Rasmussen. All those who go by their Fallen's name are mostly just meat suits. Nicodemus explains this in Skin Game. And your point doesn't prove that Nicodemus isn't a Fallen.
The Fallen want them to do evil, to sin if you want to use that word. It is all about his soul. Nicodemus might have failed in his main objective, Anduriel had a wonderful day.
Yes that seems very true. But in-text we don't know any specifics. I assume you are talking about Skin Game here. Anduriel might be happy that Nicodemus failed his test for redemption...but I doubt that's much consolation considering I am sure he just as much as Nicodemus wanted the weapons etc. They are heavily set back in their plans. But not altogether. But what you're saying doesn't mean that the Fallen want their vessel's to lie anymore than they have to. They want to corrupt them. But when humans lie it isn't anywhere near as bad as when Fallen do. Uriel says this in Ghost Story.
We have all the mythology Jim must have used for the fallen. Faust, paradise lost, etc.We have a pretty good idea what the fallen want
We only have the general knowledge of what the Fallen seem to want. And Jim deviates often and readily from existing fiction and mythology. He uses what he likes and changes it to fit his world, and discards anything he doesn't want. As any author would.
Listening to the devil is dangerous. You listen to the snake and before you know it you are thrown out of paradise.
You completely didn't answer my points and just went on a tangent. How is what you said above refuting any of what you quoted? MY soul (assuming I have one) isn't remotely affected by these books. Because these are stories. So how my soul is involved is beyond me. Secondly, Harry hasn't listened to the Devil. As far as we are aware, they have never spoken or interacted. Not only that, he has only been felt once on stage when he powered the magical Signs to contain the Archive. Harry hasn't ever been in Paradise. Or met the snake. Stick to the story. And thirdly, you still haven't answered why the Denarians would benefit from betraying Harry the moment he picked up his Coin.
Also you are assuming the Devil and the Snake in the Garden of Eden are the same being (that isn't clear even in scripture and theological discussion, let alone other works of fiction like Good Omens) but whilst listening to the Devil may well be dangerous, it is accepting his lies that would be dangerous not necessarily listening to what he has to say. But sorting out his lies from the truth would be a very difficult task considering he is an Archangel and knows lying better than anyone (apparently).
Sure but so would anyone who listened to the fallen. And that is what the knights are for, they keep trying. But that does not negate the point that in Nicodemus case it is pretty hopeless.
I believe you are trying to say that by listening to the Fallen they rob you of Choice. That just isn't true. It is clearly stated over and over that no monster or demon can make you Choose. You always choose. They can hurt and trick and lie and bully you, they can even take over your mind and make you do things. But they CANNOT make you CHOOSE to do something. Ebenezar says almost exactly that at the end of Changes. Uriel says the same in Ghost Story.
Free will is one theme and theoretically you always have it but nature is another theme and nature is molded by your choices. Too many bad choices and it will be extremely difficult to change your path. That is why warlocks are killed. That is why nobody believes Nicodemus will change his ways. But it is theoretically possible and Michael tried.
Not just theoretically, but actually. In the Dresden Files, it appears mortals ALWAYS have Free Will. Compromising that is a big offence and that is where the Angels step in. It's a major reveal in Ghost Story. And you are right. Nature is a theme. But even Mother Summer says that it is possible for anyone to resist their nature. She is talking about Harry, but also Maeve and maybe even Mab and Molly. She says most Choose not to. She implies it is because it is too hard and they give up. Michael believed Nicodemus might be able to change. Uriel too. Just because you don't exercise your Free Will doesn't mean you don't have it, doesn't mean you don't have a choice. That's is made repeatedly clear. Name even one moment in the series where a character didn't have a choice. You won't find it.
In the same sense as Lasciel or Mab did not make You do anything and can not make You do anything. Theoretically true but in practice they succeed quite often
No, you are again conflating two separate concepts. Mab and Lasciel (and those like them) only succeed in convincing, bullying, persuading and coercing their victims (if they succeed at all). They never make ANY mortal CHOOSE to do what they say. The mortal ends up choosing out of pain or fear or whatever, but in the end it is still a Choice. Choosing to do nothing is a Choice. Choosing to do one thing or another is a Choice. Maybe Mab threatens to kill everyone Harry knows and loves if he doesn't stab Molly, maybe she magically puppets his hands to make him do it, maybe she offers him more power or whatever. In his mind, Harry still has to Choose. Even if his hands are being puppeted (meaning he cannot control them) she cannot make him Choose to kill Molly. Do you understand what I am saying here?
In Small favor he chose to betray even when he knew he needed Harry to betray the swords purpose. In Skin game he chose to lie even when saying the truth would have given him his main objective, the spear. He lies and betrays against his own best interest because he believes lying is the best way to serve his interests. That is the influence of the fallen.
Again, this doesn't prove that Nicodemus lies compulsively with every breath. Give me a section where he lies in every sentence. In Small Favor he never needed Dresden to betray the Swords purpose. Dresden cannot wield the Swords. He betrayed Dresden because he knew Dresden was going to betray him (he surely overheard Dresden via Anduriel) and because by corrupting the Archive and Marcone (and potentially getting most of his Coins back and killing the Knights) he had a much better deal. Rather than merely getting his Coins back. It might be against the best interests of his soul to lie, but not necessarily against the best interests of his team or even his goals.
If something is too good to be true what is more likely? True or not?
And now you add the reputation of the speaker to it. Uriel vs Nicodemus.
So again we're back to Heaven being untrue because it is "too good to be true"? Is your theory then that Uriel is infact another bad guy and even Heaven is bad?
To help you, what if Ebenezar is a bad guy? Or Father Forthill? Or Vadderung or Michael Carpenter? Are they somehow more truthful because we don't yet know they are bad? See how you're argument doesn't work?
I know the difference but the independence of the denarians is a lie to make it easier to take the coin. A really independent Nicodemus wouldn't have killed his daughter. They lie to you and you may not even hear other peoples words correctly.
No, you are always yourself. Just because they can alter the senses of their host doesn't mean they can take away their Choice. Where does it say otherwise? "Independant" people kill all the time. Family members, friends, lovers it doesn't matter. And they don't need demons or anything else to make them.
Because it is too risky and too difficult? The devil deceives you and often does not give you what you really wants but something else.
Nicodemus isn't the Devil. Neither is Anduriel. Lucifer is the Devil. Why do you keep bringing him up? And you are assuming it was beyond the capabilities of the Denarians to take out the Reds. But the Denarians have Hell and all it's allies on their side. Some even are allied with Outsiders or Black Council members. As above, they could easily chew threw Red Court vamps. As for taking them out all at once...the Reds had a loaded Nuke. All it took was it to be aimed at them and they all died. Anduriel could have done the same as Vadderung and pointed Harry in the right direction. Jim even says he quite possibly would have used the Denarians as Dresden's team.
He also chooses Mab because she will keep her word and deliver.
He chose Mab because he thought he could get out of it easiest. Which might not even be true. Any option would have brought about the destruction of the Red Court. Jim has made it abundantly clear that Harry could have used Mab, Lasciel or even the Kemmler route to heal his back and take out the Reds. Jim went with Mab, because he thought it most appropriate for what he had written. But the others were completely viable choices.
You overestimates Nicodemus independence. He had that coin for 2000 years.
You underestimate it. I have provided several examples that show Nicodemus isn't a sock puppet and makes his own Choices. Just because he is influenced doesn't change that. And just to be clear, no one is truly independant except for their Choices and Will.
Nicodemus honoring his promises? that is against his nature. I wouldn't bet on it
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You might not bet on it. But Nicodemus does honour his promises when it suits him, like any other mortal. Mab asked for Nicodemus and Anduriel's help when she took over the Gates, that is how she was in debt to them and why Harry was on loan as part of repaying that debt in Skin Game. You could say that Harry doesn't honour his promises by the same logic as he constantly betrays his enemies. Yet we know that Harry does honour many of his promises all the time. It's not a black and white, straight forward thing.