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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: wardenferry419 on November 15, 2017, 11:51:47 AM
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Harry's mother is a very interesting character for me. I think that alot of Harry's problems are tied to her actions. She was anti-authority and anti-establishment figure that catalyzed many plot ponts that are coming to fruition during Harry's life. Hence, the apology during the magically-altered soulgaze between Harry and Thomas. I would like to list some points and mysteries that surround her.
1. For someone who was closing in on 200 years of age; she maintained a less than middle-age look and was able to bear children well past her age. This has been explained as extended time spent in Never-Never. Rashid remarked her as a fellow traveler of the Ways. She spent enough time to discover and anticipate the movements of the Ways. But, is there more to her youthful appearance?
2. She is well-known among many of the nastier supernatural elements. Nico spoke of her with familiarity. She had frequent and extended associations with various vampire courts. Maggie dealt with Lea and made her Harry's godmother. But, something occurred that troubled Maggie to such a degree that she fled Lord Raitth's control. What was it?
3. Creating a star-born seems to be not an easy task. It reguires a lot of unique conditions and unknown preparations to be met. Yet, Maggie achieved these necessary measures in order for Harry to be born with its potential. Why did she do this and how?
4. How powerful was Maggie? We know that her father, Eb, is on the top tier in his magic use. Her son, Harry, is well ahead of his age for ability to channel large amounts of magic even if he lacks fine control. She crafted elaborate and delicate spells. Was she closer to Molly with the sensitivity or closer to Harry with raw power? Could she have made Senior Council with her range and ability?
Are there any great mysteries of Maggie Sr. that others have pondered?
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What we know about wizard aging is based only upon a few samples so there could be some variety maybe Margaret just stopped aging at the normal rate somewhat earlier. It seems that frequent use of magic, which is linked to life and emotions, slows aging so maybe extensive traveling in the nevernever and frequent contact with the fae does so as well.
Or maybe a Margaret was on her way to become something else, most of the Sidhe started as human after all and she was called Margaret la fae for a reason.
She got older and so wiser? Maybe discovering what the white court really was did the trick. She was there for years and the white king must have thought her under his control so she must have observed a lot.
The starborn thing is something she must have discovered when working with the nasty ones or it was part of her deal with Lea. Nut the motive is not that difficult, a lot of parents want power for their children or want them to succeed in whatever they failed. She must have loved her magic so more of it for her child was desirable.
Margaret was probably as powerful as Harry or Ebenezar at their respective ages but she was more experienced and better taught.
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I thought it was established that she was between 135 and 150 when she died.. For a wizard that would be like a human in her early thirties...
I don't know that she was excessively powerful in of itself, but she made trouble for herself and the Council because she colored outside of the lines. When they jumped her for it it escalated from there as she upped her rebellion against the system and yeah, she did commit real crimes... As Chauncy said, they were getting ready to welcome her, but she met Malcolm and turned her life around.
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1. I'm not sure about the aging. I don't think there are many wizards who spent extensive enough time in the Nevernever to lose enough time to artificially extend their life too much. Rashid is one of them. Maggie may be another. I think it would be noted by many when wizards powerful enough to hang around the Nevernever with impunity (it's a very dangerous place, remember) go missing for years. They did notice when Maggie disappeared; Luccio remarks on it. So I don't think it was Nevernever time shenanigans.
As for fertility at an advanced age... even if it was a problem, which I'm iffy on, a whole, whole lot of ancient magic rituals were focused on fertility (and crop yields, because famine was a problem). I'm reasonably certain that there is at least one that works. So, in short: magic.
2. I think she bailed when she realized that Lord Raith was hanging with Outsiders. She somehow uncovered that his antimagic field was sponsored by one (or, you know, a bunch), realized what it meant, and fled. My question is simply: why on earth did she leave Thomas? She could've kept him from becoming a vampire, after what we learned in Blood Rites about their first time—if she had taken him with her.
3. I don't know how she made a starborn. If fertility was an issue, it might've been part of things, actually. But I do think that she recognized the Outsider threat, and decided to do something about it.
4. I think Maggie could've been Senior Council once she was senior enough. I'm reasonably certain that'd be a safe bet.
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I do not think Margaret could have saved Thomas from vampirism, the only cure we know is unpredictable an impossible to plan.
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I do not think Margaret could have saved Thomas from vampirism, the only cure we know is unpredictable an impossible to plan.
They weren't told they were vampires. If they know about what their first time will do to them, they can make the choice, or at least prepare themselves for it.
Seriously, if you were told when you were ten that your first time would either turn you into a monster or you'd remain a normal person depending upon your depth of feeling, wouldn't you make an effort to work out when the best time was? Wouldn't you be extra cautious?
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They weren't told they were vampires. If they know about what their first time will do to them, they can make the choice, or at least prepare themselves for it.
Seriously, if you were told when you were ten that your first time would either turn you into a monster or you'd remain a normal person depending upon your depth of feeling, wouldn't you make an effort to work out when the best time was? Wouldn't you be extra cautious?
A thirteen year old boy? Full with hormones and the egoism of puberty? First try telling him about homework and the importance of a good education. Or anything that involves responsibility and planning for more than three hours.
And remember how obnoxious Ebenezar and all his descendants are, it is probably worse.
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A thirteen year old boy? Full with hormones and the egoism of puberty? First try telling him about homework and the importance of a good education. Or anything that involves responsibility and planning for more than three hours.
And remember how obnoxious Ebenezar and all his descendants are, it is probably worse.
You do realize that A) I was a thirteen-year old boy, and B) magic changes things, right? If my mother chucked a fireball, looked at me, and said "Magic is real, you aren't fully human, and there's some stuff we need to go over to make sure you don't become a monster," you're damn right I would've listened.
This isn't a talk about the birds and the bees, or the importance of saying no to drugs. This is a talk about a single event that will absolutely change who he is as a person.
Aside from which, we have confirmation that it's possible: Thomas's sister, at the end of Blood Rites.
Margaret robbed Thomas of that chance by leaving him with Raith.
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You do realize that A) I was a thirteen-year old boy, and B) magic changes things, right? If my mother chucked a fireball, looked at me, and said "Magic is real, you aren't fully human, and there's some stuff we need to go over to make sure you don't become a monster," you're damn right I would've listened.
Magic changes things in more than one way. The demon is already there and wants to express itself. That is far more difficult than a drug never used.
This isn't a talk about the birds and the bees, or the importance of saying no to drugs. This is a talk about a single event that will absolutely change who he is as a person.
Aside from which, we have confirmation that it's possible: Thomas's sister, at the end of Blood Rites.
Real love two sided is not something you can plan for your children as a parent. As a cure it is totally unpredictable and you can not count on it especially for a young child.
Margaret robbed Thomas of that chance by leaving him with Raith.
Margaret had to run away and she could not take her baby shark with her.
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I'm not saying that you can account for true love. I'm saying that Thomas could have been properly prepared. He did not have that chance; he was ignorant of his true nature until it happened.
I'm also not saying that his demon wouldn't have disagreed. But Thomas managed to beat his demon for years with nothing but his own willpower, after it had fully grown.
It doesn't matter that true love is rare, or that his demon would've tried to override his instincts, or that kids have hormones and don't want to listen to mom and dad. Him having sex outside a loving relationship has a one-hundred percent chance of turning him into a vampire for life. There was a chance it could've been prevented, and that's a chance that's worth taking, isn't it? I'm not accusing Margaret of not vaccinating her son, I'm accusing her of not telling him that diseases were a thing and leaving him at a leper colony. Maybe there's a good reason for that, and that's what I'm wondering.
As for the last bit, my questions is why she couldn't take him. She was, evidently, able to leave him a pentacle (which I suppose Raith never noticed, or I suspect he would've taken it). Was it an action-movie escape sequence, where she was fleeing into the Nevernever from armed vampires, or was it planned in advance, which might have been adjusted to take Thomas with her? Was she unwilling to take a kid on the run? Or was there another reason?
My point is that the kid was five. You try tearing me away from my kids, and I'll leave you a puddle of unrecognizable fleshsludge on the ground. I can't believe that Margaret didn't have similar instincts.
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She probably had but she also had knowledge about vampires.
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I do not think Margaret could have saved Thomas from vampirism, the only cure we know is unpredictable an impossible to plan.
I don't think she could have either, that may have been one of the reasons she left him behind when she left Lord Raith. For starters she may have felt that given his slim chance to beat the Hunger he was better off being raised with those who understand it far better than she ever could. Secondly she may have felt if she had taken Thomas with her she'd had no chance with Malcolm.. Lastly but not least, Thomas might be her secret weapon for ultimate revenge against Lord Raith. It may not be just because he was male that Lord Raith has tried to kill him all these years.
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2. She is well-known among many of the nastier supernatural elements. Nico spoke of her with familiarity. She had frequent and extended associations with various vampire courts. Maggie dealt with Lea and made her Harry's godmother. But, something occurred that troubled Maggie to such a degree that she fled Lord Raitth's control. What was it?
3. Creating a star-born seems to be not an easy task. It reguires a lot of unique conditions and unknown preparations to be met. Yet, Maggie achieved these necessary measures in order for Harry to be born with its potential. Why did she do this and how?
I think question 3 could go a long way to answer question 2.
Maggie dying as Harry was born, quite likely of a curse that had a Walker involved in it like the one the witches were using in BR would certainly be part of a unique and powerful set of circumstances that directly connected Outsiders to Harry's birth. That it could be an ingredient in making a starborn seems plausible to me. And that Maggie actually broke free of Lord Raith would mean she'd have to be enthralled by him in the first place, which seems a fairly pointless thing for him to do given that it would blunt her ability to do magic; her death being a willing sacrifice to give the world a starborn because she has some information about the scale of the Outsider threat (since she knew Lea well, or possibly via Cowl being part of her set of dubious comrades back in the span where she was shading from frustrated reformer within the White Council to willing to break the Laws, as Eb reports in BR) works for me.
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I hate to speak ill of the dead; but, what if Maggie needed Thomas to be a vampire as part of long-term plans? I would not be surprised if the pentagram left for him wasn't invested with a little magical mother's love in order to assist him in resisting the influence of his vampire nature.
I believe that question 2 and question 3 are linked.
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Are there any elements of Maggie or actions around her that others have questioned?
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Maggie was said to be an expert in the ways and so called grey magics. She preserved her knowledge of the ways in her gem for Harry, so did she preserve her knowledge of grey magics? It would be a way to stick it to the council, to ensure it was preserved or even spread.
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Possibly, it could be in the gemstone waiting for a moment.
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McCoy could have a copy, a grimmoire detailing the grey magics might be very useful for the Blackstaff.
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I hate to speak ill of the dead; but, what if Maggie needed Thomas to be a vampire as part of long-term plans?
I think he was always intended to be there as backup and support for Harry, and I'm not sure Maggie making an effort to provide that is necessarily speaking ill of the dead.
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It may be if Maggie saw the two options available to Thomas, her son, and chose her needs for him over the chance for him to have a happy, normal life.
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It may be if Maggie saw the two options available to Thomas, her son, and chose her needs for him over the chance for him to have a happy, normal life.
Thing is, Thomas was screwed from the get go... His life would never be "normal" whether she took him with her or not.
Lord Raith would forever be out to kill him along with her for starters, that doesn't make for a normal life. He still would have to deal with the demon inside of him. He may never have met Justine..
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Bottom line is that we don't know the circumstances of her leaving Raith. For all we know she wasn't able to get away whenever she had Thomas. He could have been in Milan and Maggie was in Ontario. That's when she had her chance and so she took it.
I personally don't necessarily believe that she knew how a Wampire demon get's control. She may have been taught by her anti-vampire father that they are born that way. Nothing she could do would prevent it.
As to her leaving Thomas (in general), I'm convinced that she learned about Papa Raith's truck with Outsiders and tried to learn all she could about it. That's how she found out about the Starborn and possibly how to cause one to be created. This being more important that protecting a baby vampire could be how she was able to leave. Also, don't forget that she is pretty old. She COULD have been just jaded enough to have been able to leave her kid. I'm not sure I buy it, but it is possible.
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I had this idea that the curse placed on the white King would somehow free or save Thomas. Not sure on the details but just a feeling.
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I personally don't necessarily believe that she knew how a Wampire demon get's control. She may have been taught by her anti-vampire father that they are born that way. Nothing she could do would prevent it.
Note, again, that White Court "demons" are not yet actually proven to be an independent thing. (Harry seeing something he parses as Thomas' demon in BR is a datum that has doubt cast on it by the WoJ about how what one sees in a soulgaze is subjective; it's not that far away from how he sees Molly's friend's addiction as if it were an independent monster, under the Sight, in PHG.)
As to her leaving Thomas (in general), I'm convinced that she learned about Papa Raith's truck with Outsiders and tried to learn all she could about it. That's how she found out about the Starborn and possibly how to cause one to be created. This being more important that protecting a baby vampire could be how she was able to leave. Also, don't forget that she is pretty old. She COULD have been just jaded enough to have been able to leave her kid. I'm not sure I buy it, but it is possible.
Or she could, unlike Harry, be just Lawful enough to figure "a chance to save the entire world, implicitly including my son, from Outsiders" as a greater good than "taking my son away from the White Court" and have acted accordingly.
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Note, again, that White Court "demons" are not yet actually proven to be an independent thing. (Harry seeing something he parses as Thomas' demon in BR is a datum that has doubt cast on it by the WoJ about how what one sees in a soulgaze is subjective; it's not that far away from how he sees Molly's friend's addiction as if it were an independent monster, under the Sight, in PHG.)
It is more than that because all the white court vampires seem to think about it as a seperate entity. That can be something they do themselves to get more control over it but it is exactly the way river shoulders and Harry talk about it in the short story as well.
Say the white court were originally highly specialized warlocks then creating a distance between them and their power serves as some form of isolation to prevent madness just like a mantle creates some distance between the bearer and the power.
But the way magic works that isolation can cause the power to become a seperate entity. Magic makes these things real.
I think trying to decide if the hunger is independent or not is misleading, is trying to draw a hard line where there is not. It might even be somewhat different from vampire to vampire.
Seperate demon or part of the vampires spirit are both ways to describe the situation that are both usefull to describe different behaviours of the same vampire but the truth is both.
Or she could, unlike Harry, be just Lawful enough to figure "a chance to save the entire world, implicitly including my son, from Outsiders" as a greater good than "taking my son away from the White Court" and have acted accordingly.
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It is more than that because all the white court vampires seem to think about it as a seperate entity.
I am trying to recall whether we have any direct confirmation from a non-Raith White Court vampire here, as I can quite buy Lord Raith making his family less threatening to him by teaching them a way of looking at things that has them fighting against themselves.
Thematically, that would fit in the same area as Harry learning to work with Lash rather than fight against her. (Which I am fairly sure is where he is going with the Winter Knight mantle ultimately, too.)
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I am trying to recall whether we have any direct confirmation from a non-Raith White Court vampire here, as I can quite buy Lord Raith making his family less threatening to him by teaching them a way of looking at things that has them fighting against themselves.
Thematically, that would fit in the same area as Harry learning to work with Lash rather than fight against her. (Which I am fairly sure is where he is going with the Winter Knight mantle ultimately, too.)
In the dresdenverse a wizard with a split personality can really split off a personality and can absorb, subject, negotiate with or be consumed by that personality the same way as he can with an invading spirit. At some point the distinction is mere of historical interest.
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Is this a Harry and subconscious Harry thing?
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Is this a Harry and subconscious Harry thing?
No it is a vampire and hunger thing. A Harry and Lash thing. Or maybe a Harry and Bonnie thing or perhaps.....
Harry gave his subconscious shape but it is still fully part of the original Harry. Place it somewhere on the continuum on the far left.
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What are some of the most Maggie Sr, relevant passages. There was altered soulgaze in BR. There was McCoy talking a fight at dinner in Changes. Rashid mentioned her once or twice. Luccio had a couple of comments. Anything I am missing?
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What are some of the most Maggie Sr, relevant passages. There was altered soulgaze in BR. There was McCoy talking a fight at dinner in Changes. Rashid mentioned her once or twice. Luccio had a couple of comments. Anything I am missing?
Changes and the pentacle.
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The main thing we know is who her likely associates were. It is an interesting list.
Nicodemus - says he respected her.
Justin DuMorne - mentioned as an associate by Ebenezar.
Goodman Grey - calls her a piece of work.
Leanansidhe - mentioned throughout the series.
Binder - This one is speculation on my part. Binder says some people talk about how they feel pity for vampires, Binder thinks they are fools.
Ebenezar - says the Wardens were under orders to arrest, and he had orders about her as well. Why send the Blackstaff after a lone wizard?
Thomas Raith - calls her "one hell of a dangerous witch".
Chauncy - says she was headed for Hell, "but we lost her".
The above list suggests Margaret LeFae was involved in very shady business. She had also broken at least some of the Laws of Magic.
APG
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Thanks for add-ons, apgrey.
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Note, again, that White Court "demons" are not yet actually proven to be an independent thing. (Harry seeing something he parses as Thomas' demon in BR is a datum that has doubt cast on it by the WoJ about how what one sees in a soulgaze is subjective; it's not that far away from how he sees Molly's friend's addiction as if it were an independent monster, under the Sight, in PHG.)
I'm quite sure they are not a separate thing. I think they are a parasite. That's why they can be "purged" from a budding Wampire by true love.
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I'm quite sure they are not a separate thing. I think they are a parasite. That's why they can be "purged" from a budding Wampire by true love.
Makes me wonder what guides their feeding habits. It makes sense that true love combats lust, but what about pain and fear?
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Makes me wonder what guides their feeding habits. It makes sense that true love combats lust, but what about pain and fear?
I just attribute it to them eating emotion. Some may be attracted to other emotions as well, but Lust, Fear are really strong ones.
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Puppies, kittens, and happy thoughts.
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Dessert
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I am diabetic, so dessert goes under pain category for me.
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I am diabetic, so dessert goes under pain category for me.
My son has diabetes and he eats everything in reach, I just have to run after him with the insuilin.
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I am not on insulin yet. A year ago, when diagnosed, my A1C was 8.0+; now I got it down to 6.1 or 6.2.
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I am diabetic, so dessert goes under pain category for me.
I wonder what a diabetic Wampire would be like.
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Probably not as selective as a diabetic RCV.
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Harry's mother is a very interesting character for me.
Myself as well.
In fact, she's probably the most important character who isn't actually an active character, if you see what I mean.
I think that alot of Harry's problems are tied to her actions. She was anti-authority and anti-establishment figure that catalyzed many plot ponts that are coming to fruition during Harry's life. Hence, the apology during the magically-altered soulgaze between Harry and Thomas. I would like to list some points and mysteries that surround her.
1. For someone who was closing in on 200 years of age; she maintained a less than middle-age look and was able to bear children well past her age. This has been explained as extended time spent in Never-Never. Rashid remarked her as a fellow traveler of the Ways. She spent enough time to discover and anticipate the movements of the Ways. But, is there more to her youthful appearance?
Unknown. JB has said things that imply it both ways at different times.
4. How powerful was Maggie? We know that her father, Eb, is on the top tier in his magic use. Her son, Harry, is well ahead of his age for ability to channel large amounts of magic even if he lacks fine control. She crafted elaborate and delicate spells. Was she closer to Molly with the sensitivity or closer to Harry with raw power? Could she have made Senior Council with her range and ability?
Are there any great mysteries of Maggie Sr. that others have pondered?
It's clear that Margaret (I prefer that spelling to easily distinguish her from Maggie Jr.) was tremendously skilled. Given that she is Harry's mother and Eb's daughter, I consider it likely (to the point of assuming it's true until I see evidence to the contrary) that she was loaded with raw strength, too.
We know about the skill from some of the stuff she did (creating a mini-shadow in her sons' minds, creating the gem-memory bank, the curse on Lord Raith (death curses by their nature have to be woven quickly, she wove a doozy).
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Note, again, that White Court "demons" are not yet actually proven to be an independent thing. (Harry seeing something he parses as Thomas' demon in BR is a datum that has doubt cast on it by the WoJ about how what one sees in a soulgaze is subjective; it's not that far away from how he sees Molly's friend's addiction as if it were an independent monster, under the Sight, in PHG.)
At one point, JB was asked if Mab could remove the demon-thing from Thomas. As I recall, he said yes, she could rip Thomas' demon right out of him, the problem would be that it leave Thomas in a ghastly state if she did it. That implies a certain separateness, at the least.
Also, pretty much everybody who soulgazes a White Vampire sees the things. Carlos made a reference to it 'that silvery thing' after soulgazing Lara, for ex.
I don't think there's any question that there's something in there initially separate from the human, though they made become one thing after the first feeding.
Or she could, unlike Harry, be just Lawful enough to figure "a chance to save the entire world, implicitly including my son, from Outsiders" as a greater good than "taking my son away from the White Court" and have acted accordingly.
Yeah, but that's so rare that it's never the way to bet.
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The main thing we know is who her likely associates were. It is an interesting list.
Nicodemus - says he respected her.
Not just respected, he says he has 'fond' memories of her. Think about that.
Now, he could be lying (he does that), but there is one piece of supporting evidence for a connection between Margaret and the Denarians: she planted something in the minds of her sons that looks suspiciously like a baby-version of a 'shadow'. One place she could have learned about that sort of thing, and studied how to do it, would be with the Denarians.
The message-Margaret in their heads was far short of Lash, but it was still an impressive bit of magic. I consider it evidence for a Margaret/Denarian link.
Justin DuMorne - mentioned as an associate by Ebenezar.
Goodman Grey - calls her a piece of work.
Leanansidhe - mentioned throughout the series.
Also, note what Lea tells Harry in Grave Peril. Lea is trying to comprehend why Harry would risk a painful death in order to do what he was doing, and she has trouble fully comprehending his answer. She does, however, note that his mother sounded the same way...just before her death. What Harry has been throughout his adult life, his mother apparently found just before the end, a change from what had gone before.
Ebenezar - says the Wardens were under orders to arrest, and he had orders about her as well. Why send the Blackstaff after a lone wizard?
Note that Ebenezar specifically tells Harry that Margaret had violated the First Law, along with others. Not 'pushed the edges' or anything, but straight-up violations of the Seven Laws.
Now, her killing with magic might have been self-defense, in itself. The Council would probably not have looked favorably on even that, given her other associations.
(The Council is far more likely to accept a self-defense claim in a First Law violation if that Wizard in question had not gone out of her way to get into situations where it might happen.)
But she had also violated other Laws, and Eb also tells Harry that she had deliberately used the Council's Laws as weapons against the Council. It doesn't sound like her actions were easily defensible.
Thomas Raith - calls her "one hell of a dangerous witch".
Chauncy - says she was headed for Hell, "but we lost her".
The above list suggests Margaret LeFae was involved in very shady business. She had also broken at least some of the Laws of Magic.
Which is where things get strange and contradictory.
Yeah, we have all that. It's pretty consistent. But we also have the very, very strange conversation between Harry and Stacy in Dead Beat, the one that implies that she was just a misguided idealist.
Rashid is also said to have had an occasional dinner date with her, where they discussed Faerie and how to traverse it. Of course that could have been further back, before she went majorly bad.
But something happened to make her change her ways just before the end, apparently something pretty profound. Whether it was meeting Malcolm, or whether she met Malcolm as a result of it, or just what, we can't know. Insufficient data.
As for Thomas...this is really nasty. Thomas believed that Lord Raith had her addicted to White Vampire sexual ecstasy, and that she broke away. Lash told Harry something that chimes with that, adding that she found the strength to break away 'for a reason' involving the birth of Harry as a starborn. But it's not clear if she knew that, that is, if her desire to produce a starborn gave her the strength to break away, or she was given the strength to break away because of her role in some larger cosmic plan.
Why didn't she take Thomas with her? We can't answer that, because we don't know the circumstances of her 'escape'. It might be that the opportunity presented itself and it was 'then or never'. It might be something else. There are a lot of unanswered questions about that whole business.
Thomas told Harry he thought their relationship started out as business, and turned personal. What Eb told Harry about the infamous 'dinner party' years later chimes with that, but it doesn't explain how she got addicted.
Even her being addicted is odd. I mean, as an experienced Wizard, she presumably ought to know better. "Here, just one done of the heroin..."
Of course sometimes supposedly smart people do profoundly stupid things, especially if they pride themselves on how smart they are. Which brings us back to what the shadow-Margaret told Harry, that she was 'so arrogant'. Harry saw a look of arrogance in her portrait at Chateau Raith, too.
Was she arrogant enough to think she could enjoy supersex without getting hooked? I don't rule it out. Still, it's another case of 'insufficient data'.
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You have given Maggie a good deal of thought. I haven't put the pieces together well. But, I believe there is WOJ that we will learn more about her in future books.
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Good points.
But something happened to make her change her ways just before the end, apparently something pretty profound. Whether it was meeting Malcolm, or whether she met Malcolm as a result of it, or just what, we can't know. Insufficient data.
I think we can make a reasonable guess that she met Malcolm after her heel-face turn. Chapter 21, Blood Rites:
"All I know is that there was some sort of business between them. It developed into something else. Father was trying to snare her permanently, but she wound up being too strong for him to completely enthrall. She escaped him when I was about five. From what I've been able to learn, she met your father the next year when she was on the run."
I'm conjecturing that leaving Raith was part of her turnaround. I'd also further state that Malcolm was unlikely to have married her if she was still all Dark Side.
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At one point, JB was asked if Mab could remove the demon-thing from Thomas. As I recall, he said yes, she could rip Thomas' demon right out of him, the problem would be that it leave Thomas in a ghastly state if she did it. That implies a certain separateness, at the least.
I would take that as implying the opposite; the difference between removing a tapeworm and removing a cancerous major organ.
Also, pretty much everybody who soulgazes a White Vampire sees the things. Carlos made a reference to it 'that silvery thing' after soulgazing Lara, for ex.
There is a WoJ somewhere about how differently different wizards can perceive the same underlying thing, and iirc what various wizards saw looking at White Court vampires is used as an example therein. And I am remembering that the range there was not narrow enough to exclude equivalents of Harry seeing Molly's friend's addiction as having monstrous mouths, in PG. Which seems to me to leave the possibility open that a White Court demon is of the nature of a supernatural or metaphysical disease or addiction rather than an independent parasite.
I don't think there's any question that there's something in there initially separate from the human, though they made become one thing after the first feeding.
I may have said before, my standard for proof that there is something there separate from the human would be one such demon being shown as an independent entity in the physical world, rather than in what have been both told and shown are subjective and metaphorical looks inside people's heads.
Yeah, but that's so rare that it's never the way to bet.
It seems workable for Maggie to be heroic in that rare a way to me, though. Pretty much everything in the entire series starts off from Maggie's actions, so those including the single rarity that everything else is built upon works for me.
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I would take that as implying the opposite; the difference between removing a tapeworm and removing a cancerous major organ.
The problem with a tumor is exactly that it has started to act as individual cells and not as a part of the body anymore. In a very real sense the tumor has become a separate life form. Again it is very depending on how you look at it.
There is a WoJ somewhere about how differently different wizards can perceive the same underlying thing, and iirc what various wizards saw looking at White Court vampires is used as an example therein. And I am remembering that the range there was not narrow enough to exclude equivalents of Harry seeing Molly's friend's addiction as having monstrous mouths, in PG. Which seems to me to leave the possibility open that a White Court demon is of the nature of a supernatural or metaphysical disease or addiction rather than an independent parasite.
So what was Lash? No separate physical existence bu we know from wok she got autonomy.
I may have said before, my standard for proof that there is something there separate from the human would be one such demon being shown as an independent entity in the physical world, rather than in what have been both told and shown are subjective and metaphorical looks inside people's heads.
It seems workable for Maggie to be heroic in that rare a way to me, though. Pretty much everything in the entire series starts off from Maggie's actions, so those including the single rarity that everything else is built upon works for me.
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So what was Lash? No separate physical existence bu we know from wok she got autonomy.
I don't see her being a parasite infected from outside, with an established means for how (the Denarian coin) necessarily being of any definitive relevance to the case of White Court "demons"; we have no evidence for any ways of getting them into otherwise uninfected humans.
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I don't see her being a parasite infected from outside, with an established means for how (the Denarian coin) necessarily being of any definitive relevance to the case of White Court "demons"; we have no evidence for any ways of getting them into otherwise uninfected humans.
Hereditary. Much like mitochondrien. Those are seperate creatures with their own dna.
Of course mitochondrien are not parasites. They started as symbiots and they became so integrated in the host that we do not see them as a seperate organism anymore. But from a Mitochondrien point of view they still are.
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I kinda see the supernatural world as being an infection on the mortal world with varying degrees of contamination. Vamps for example, WCV are lightly infected, RCV are moderate to severe infection, and BCV are complete infection of the mortal.
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I kinda see the supernatural world as being an infection on the mortal world with varying degrees of contamination. Vamps for example, WCV are lightly infected, RCV are moderate to severe infection, and BCV are complete infection of the mortal.
What about mortal Wizards? They are part of the Supernatural world.
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What about mortal Wizards? They are part of the Supernatural world.
Wizards are what happens when you fight off the infection and acquire an immunity. Hashtagmetaphorcomplete.
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Wizard is just what you get if you do not have enough power to become something else. ;D
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I think I like Kindler's extension of the idea better.
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Still suggests that Wizards are part of the Supernatural world. Maybe they are the missing link?
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Hereditary. Much like mitochondrien. Those are seperate creatures with their own dna.
Yah, but, to complete my comparison, we do not have any examples of contemporary living creatures that exist without mitochondria suddenly acquiring them. Inheriting something from your parents does not confirm that that thing can exist outside a human.
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Yah, but, to complete my comparison, we do not have any examples of contemporary living creatures that exist without mitochondria suddenly acquiring them.
That is because biology and evolution are not as fast as magic and are not intelligently designed either.
Inheriting something from your parents does not confirm that that thing can exist outside a human.
And the mitochondrien can not exist outside the human body either. Whether you see them as independent creatures depends on your point of view. In some cases it is still usefull to see them that way.
Being able to exist outside the human body is not the only criterium. To go back to Lash she started as a part of Lasciel even when she was residing in Harry. Then she gained authonomy and made her own decisions even if she was bound by her now changed nature. The remnants of that spirit fused with some part of Harry to form something new but according to your definition that was only a seperate entity after she was born.
Harry could have reabsorbed her as Lasciel was planning (consume her you could say) but he did not.
This is a magical world. Spiritual entities can reside in someones elses body and it is sometimes difficult to state how seperate or integrated they are and what their relation to the host is because things flow over into each other just like in biology but shown seperation is not the only criterium.
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I don't see her being a parasite infected from outside, with an established means for how (the Denarian coin) necessarily being of any definitive relevance to the case of White Court "demons"; we have no evidence for any ways of getting them into otherwise uninfected humans.
I don't think that's an accident, any more than I think it's incidental that the White Court does its business in Etruscan, or that the titles of the BAT are the favorite White Court curse words.
My guess is that the first White Court vampire was a human being or small group of human beings, who (consensually or not) was merged with one of the demon-things, probably in Etruria in pre-Roman/early Roman times, and the modern White Court are descended from him, her, or possibly them, if it was a small group.
Was Lord Raith that first one? Theoretically possible, but I rather doubt it. But I doubt he's many generations removed.
Which suggests a linkage to the Black Court more than the Red, oddly. The Red Court appear to be physical parasites, they use humans as hosts for their offspring and the offspring copies some of the personality and at least some of the memories of the deceased host. For a mundane world metaphor, they are like the insects that plant their offspring inside another creature, who devour it from within. The emerged Red Vampire is in no sense the same entity that as the former host human, who is gone.
But the Black Court vampires appear to be the same human entity, dead and reanimated, true, full-deal vampires. In that sense, they are more like the White Vampires than the Red. The White parasites seem to leave the host alive, and need the host alive, and reproduce when the host reproduces. It looks suspiciously like a link to the Outside is involved.
The Black Court kill the human, but reanimate him/her with some even deeper link to Outside. It's not obvious that the Red Court had an Outsider link at all.
Now I can't prove this, but it's my working hypothesis. I also note that Harry muses at one point that the White Council dates back to that period (in earlier form, no doubt). Is there a link? Insufficient data.
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Yah, but, to complete my comparison, we do not have any examples of contemporary living creatures that exist without mitochondria suddenly acquiring them. Inheriting something from your parents does not confirm that that thing can exist outside a human.
But we do have extant strains of bacteria that look, genetically, to be closer-than-cousins to mitochondria.
It is true that apparently the formation of the eukaryotic cell only happened once, or twice if you count the admixture of chloroplasts. Which also suggests that the formation of the symbiosis is really, really hard. Which might make it a decent metaphor for the White Court, at that.
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To go back to Lash she started as a part of Lasciel even when she was residing in Harry.
Small nitpick: Lash was never part of Lasciel, from the start. She was a 'copy, of an unknown degree of accuracy', an AI program, based on Lasciel's personality, imprinted on Harry's brain. She was always a separate entity, she just was programmed not to realize that until Harry hacked the code.
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Small nitpick: Lash was never part of Lasciel, from the start. She was a 'copy, of an unknown degree of accuracy', an AI program, based on Lasciel's personality, imprinted on Harry's brain. She was always a separate entity, she just was programmed not to realize that until Harry hacked the code.
You can say that. Lasciel and Lash in the beginning both thought differently.
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You can say that. Lasciel and Lash in the beginning both thought differently.
Though it's not clear that Lash knew it.
For that matter, I've always questioned how 'close' the correspondence between shadow and Fallen really is. The shadows think they are perfect copies...but how likely is that, really? Could you even fit the full scope of knowledge of beings that ancient and vast into a mortal brain?
Further, is it in the interest of the Fallen to produce such a full copy, even if it can be done? After all, that information is now in a mortal mind, theoretically accessible to that mortal, or to a psychomancer with enough skill and willingness to break the Third Law. Could be a major security breach, a way for your enemies to learn an awful lot about you.
I just wonder how close the copies really are to their creators.
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I would say the correspondance is one-way. The Fallen can monitor what happens to the shadow; but the shadow has no knowledge of what the Fallen is doing. At most, the shadow has a sorta emergency signal that can call the coin to the host.The shadow is a sub-program.
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For what it's worth, I always assumed Lash was basically already Lasciel's offspring. Kind of like reproduction via budding, though maybe grafting a limb from one tree to another is a better comparison. Her existence at all, in my opinion, really should've clued Harry into the possibility of Bonnie.
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I would assume that Lash was a subset of the knowledge and motivations of Lasciel. Not the complete being, or a complete copy of Lasciel either. I think it had two basic missions, get Harry to pick up the coin and keep it, and to return to Lasciel with any new knowledge, which would be added to her own. The rest of the copy being expunged as redundant.
When Harry got Lash to self identify, she became her own personality, and at that point was complete in and of herself, just requiring a host, since she had no body of her own, nor a means to create one, until Bonnie was created.
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For what it's worth, I always assumed Lash was basically already Lasciel's offspring. Kind of like reproduction via budding, though maybe grafting a limb from one tree to another is a better comparison. Her existence at all, in my opinion, really should've clued Harry into the possibility of Bonnie.
It depends on what the exact relationship between Lash and Bonnie is. Harry calls Bonnie Lash's offspring, but I'm not sure she isn't actually Lash transformed.
I don't think you can call Lash an offspring of Lasciel, though, unless you count a computer program as the 'offspring' of the programmer. It's not quite the same thing.
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It depends on what the exact relationship between Lash and Bonnie is. Harry calls Bonnie Lash's offspring, but I'm not sure she isn't actually Lash transformed.
I don't think you can call Lash an offspring of Lasciel, though, unless you count a computer program as the 'offspring' of the programmer. It's not quite the same thing.
It is offspring of both Harry and Lash if it is a new being build on both of them. Equal part of Lash and Harry spirit forming a new spirit independent of both.
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Is Bonnie a form of Nephilim?
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We know that Harry changed copied Lasciel into Lash. She became self aware enough that she knew if Harry died, she would as well. When Bob looks at Harry after the attack in White Night and says he has all of these holes in his soul from where the attack happened, Harry is distressed. However had all this damage not taken place would Bonnie have killed Harry instead of almost killing him? With all the room that exists in Harry's soul or brain is that why he has been more mutable since?
If you look at Harry pre attack and post attack he seems to be much more changeable since the attack. Is this an unintended consequence of Jim evolving as a writer, or was it preconceived? Is this why the Winter Mantel is having more and more power over him because of all the damage that was done? More importantly will Winter's grasp on Harry grow now that Harry has all of this open space inside of him that Bonnie occupied?
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Interesting idea, did Bonnie's presence inhibit the Knight mantle? Does anyone have any thoughts.
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I am betting Bonnie learned a lot from the winter mantle, stuff like winter law. Things written into it, but not something Harry would be consciously aware.
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I think the mirror/gateway/door is a very important aspect of the WCV's. It is literally the door one passes through on death.
If one dies and conceivably becomes an angel(as per Lash and the Reaper) and Thomas is 'half-born', then the thing coming through his inner gateway is more or less the part 'born' unto the originator of WCV's and shared throughout them.
*insert citation here, need collaboration on why mirror shadow is inherently negative but directly connects to future rebirth
Interesting corollary, Blamps are the literal things in the mirror come through in direct penumbral mirroring, which is to say, without any sort of drift from other sources of light at all, but as the direct inversion of what they were before, a living person. Birthing one inversion of life at a time, and one true immortal whose power can grow exponentially feeding on life(walking conjunction!?)
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IIRC, Bob said that Lash occupied that part of Harry's Mind that was not used anyway. I don't know why it's being damaged (and being healed from then on) would make him more malleable.
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IIRC, Bob said that Lash occupied that part of Harry's Mind that was not used anyway. I don't know why it's being damaged (and being healed from then on) would make him more malleable.
Yeah, it's also one of those things that straight up doesn't make sense. You don't use all of your brain for conscious thought, but you do kind of need all of it for a bunch of automated processes. Like muscular function. Kuru is a brain prion that just chews holes through your brain, and it's 100% fatal. (Also caused by cannibalism, but still—holes in your noggin=bad).
Heh. Maybe those holes are where Uriel poured soulfire, restoring some nerve connections and allowing him to manipulate Harry's hand in Small Favor.
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Yeah, it's also one of those things that straight up doesn't make sense. You don't use all of your brain for conscious thought, but you do kind of need all of it for a bunch of automated processes.
It's not just that. The difference between a brain with 10% of the neurons firing, and one with 100% of the neurons firing, is like the difference between a (very big) page with lots of complicated text written on it and a sheet of plain black paper the same size. One can contain complex information. The other can't.
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Yeah, it's also one of those things that straight up doesn't make sense. You don't use all of your brain for conscious thought, but you do kind of need all of it for a bunch of automated processes. Like muscular function. Kuru is a brain prion that just chews holes through your brain, and it's 100% fatal. (Also caused by cannibalism, but still—holes in your noggin=bad).
Heh. Maybe those holes are where Uriel poured soulfire, restoring some nerve connections and allowing him to manipulate Harry's hand in Small Favor.
Now there's a theory.
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Yeah, it's also one of those things that straight up doesn't make sense. You don't use all of your brain for conscious thought, but you do kind of need all of it for a bunch of automated processes.
It used to be a misconception that only 10% of the brain was active at any given time, with a basis in a scientific misunderstanding. That's what Harry is referring to when he refers to that 10% thing.
In fact, I don't doubt for a moment that our minds/brains have vastly more potentials that we generally use, but it isn't that the neurons aren't active.
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I have seen a few customers that seem to be functioning on 1% and not 10%. :P
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Was the part of the brain destroyed with lash rebuilt by Bonnie?
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I don't know about rebuilt; but, it might have housed Bonnie.
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I don't know about rebuilt; but, it might have housed Bonnie.
This, and that Harry's wizard healing could be repairing the damage.