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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Lord Kinbote on February 21, 2024, 06:33:14 PM
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Do we know whether Lara is able to feed off of Harry? She surely could BEFORE he became the Winter Knight, but can Harry's mantle counter the efforts of Lara's demon? I don't recall in any book or short story any feeding interaction between WK Harry and a White Court vampire.
How fun would the dynamic be if Lara can't feed or otherwise influence Harry due to the WK mantle? Answer: Great fun, more fun than we (and Harry and Jim) should be allowed to have.
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Do we know whether Lara is able to feed off of Harry? She surely could BEFORE he became the Winter Knight, but can Harry's mantle counter the efforts of Lara's demon? I don't recall in any book or short story any feeding interaction between WK Harry and a White Court vampire.
How fun would the dynamic be if Lara can't feed or otherwise influence Harry due to the WK mantle? Answer: Great fun, more fun than we (and Harry and Jim) should be allowed to have.
Not sure about his Winter Knight status giving her the burn and preventing her feeding on Harry. However Harry might still be protected. Once before in White Night, he blistered her lips because of his true love for Susan even though it had been five years I believe since he had been with Susan or any other woman. I think because of his true love for Murphy, Lara will still not be able to feed on him unless in the mean time he has casual sex with another. His brief affair with Luccio canceled the protection he had had from Susan. Also it was the possible reason behind the scene in Ghost Story when Justine was having a lesbian affair which canceled the true love bond/protection which then allowed her to have sex with Thomas. I pass no judgememt on this arrangement nor am I speculating on why it was chosen over a heterosexual arrangement to make her love making with Thomas possible.. Yes, I understand the touchy topic ice is very thin here, and don't care to venture further.
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Do we know whether Lara is able to feed off of Harry? She surely could BEFORE he became the Winter Knight...
We don't know if Harry's relationship with Murphy would have protected him, or if it hadn't gotten deep enough / serious enough.
I like to think it would have -- I ship Murphy with Harry, tho I think Molly was a better fit for the long term, just because they both have centuries of lifespan (unlike vanilla-mortal Murphy (but who knows what Einerjar-Murphy (or whatever) will have)).
But I'm very dubious that Harry *ever* got that protection via Murphy... I need to go back to Peace Talks, and re-read the scene where Harry spars with Lara in her home dojo: IIRC, that wound up with some unarmed/grappling, and that would get skin-contact, and I don't recall Lara getting burned?
Do we know whether Lara is able to feed off of Harry? ... can Harry's mantle counter the efforts of Lara's demon?
I am pretty sure there is WoJ specifically saying that the WK mantle's sexual urges & the Whamp-whammy sex thing are additive with each other. No immunity for the WK.
I expect Lara would die (tho it'd be a close thing): she seems a bit smitten with Harry (in her own predatory way) and I don't think she could resist trying the classic whampire "pacify with pleasure" schtick.
In self-defense, Harry would do the WK-Mantle "sex with violence" thing, fueling both his own magic and the WK-mantle with Whampire sex-mojo.
Lara would do well to remember who kept their self control, there in the Raith Deeps and the brief "cannonball run" over the estate. We know Harry can fuel his magic with whampire sex-mojo, and he's only been honing his will colder and harder since then.
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We don't know if Harry's relationship with Murphy would have protected him, or if it hadn't gotten deep enough / serious enough.
Actually we do know Harry is protected by the True Love™ that he shared with Murphy.
Lara gets burned by Harry in Peace Talks, not in the scene you mentioned, the one at the dojo, though it should be said that in that scene there's no mention of them making skin to skin contact (so while he already had sexual relationships with Murph at that point, the protection isn't tested yet), but in the scene where Lara and Harry are getting ready to rescue Thomas in the castle, they do touch and she burns. Harry makes explicit mention of it, check out Chapter 25 of Peace Talks.
And at the end of Battle Ground, when Lara and Harry shake hands over their deal, the only reason they can is because Lara is wearing gloves.
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... in the scene where Lara and Harry are getting ready to rescue Thomas in the castle, they do touch and she burns. Harry makes explicit mention of it, check out Chapter 25 of Peace Talks.
Thank you, I'll check that out ...
:o
as soon as I figure out where my walkabout copy of PT has gotten to... >:(
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Thank you, I'll check that out ...
:o
as soon as I figure out where my walkabout copy of PT has gotten to... >:(
No worries, I got you:
...Lara was standing next to me, her bare shoulder against my elbow. My elbow approved, ecstatically—but Lara jumped and let out a little truncated sound of discomfort.
She glanced down at her shoulder, where a patch the shape, I guess, of the end of my elbow was turning red, as though she’d brushed it against a hot pan.
Vampires of the White Court had a severe allergy to sincere love, the way the Black Court doesn’t like sunbathing. Skin-to-skin contact with people who love and who are loved in return is hardest of all on the White Court.
Which meant that …
Oh.
Well. I hadn’t been thinking about having that aura of protection around me when Karrin and I got busy, but it was nice to have it.
And it was nice to know it was real. Very nice.
“Ouch,” Lara said, her tone annoyed. Then she glanced up at me and her expression became suddenly pleased. “Oh. You and the policewoman? Congratulations, wizard.”
Chapter 25 - Peace Talks
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No worries, I got you:
TYVM!
Of course, I still need to track down my PT.
This state of affairs is simply unacceptable!
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Actually we do know Harry is protected by the True Love™ that he shared with Murphy.
Lara gets burned by Harry in Peace Talks, not in the scene you mentioned, the one at the dojo, though it should be said that in that scene there's no mention of them making skin to skin contact (so while he already had sexual relationships with Murph at that point, the protection isn't tested yet), but in the scene where Lara and Harry are getting ready to rescue Thomas in the castle, they do touch and she burns. Harry makes explicit mention of it, check out Chapter 25 of Peace Talks.
And at the end of Battle Ground, when Lara and Harry shake hands over their deal, the only reason they can is because Lara is wearing gloves.
And his feelings for Murphy haven changed, even though she is dead. He is still grieving and hasn't moved on, and until he hooks up with another woman, he will be protected... Or rather any real marital consummation between him and Lara is impossible. Mab knows this, so what is she really up to?
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And his feelings for Murphy haven changed, even though she is dead. He is still grieving and hasn't moved on, and until he hooks up with another woman, he will be protected... Or rather any real marital consummation between him and Lara is impossible. Mab knows this, so what is she really up to?
Yeah, and until the next book comes out and we see the rest of the story, all we do know is that even by Xmas time (which is several months after BG) Harry still grieves Murph.
My theory about the whole wedding situation is that is, like all of Mab's plans, a multi-purpose thing. I think in part it is about making powerful allies, in part is about isolating Harry or changing his focus, maybe about him making other types of allies, in part is about Molly and making her lose all hope of romance bewteen her and Harry, and it might also be about Mab needing something from the Raith's library that by Harry being close he could get for her, or even for himself, there's probably stuff that belonged to Margaret in there. But I really doubt is because there's a need for an "heir" or something as simple as that.
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And at the end of Battle Ground, when Lara and Harry shake hands over their deal, the only reason they can is because Lara is wearing gloves.
So we don't know for sure if Lara still gets burned by his touch. It could be that the protection is gone because Karrin died. And she did die. Valhalla is the afterlife.
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So we don't know for sure if Lara still gets burned by his touch. It could be that the protection is gone because Karrin died. And she did die. Valhalla is the afterlife.
That is true, the protection has not been tested after Karrin's death yet. I imagine that is going to be one of the first things that we learn about in Twelve Months.
However, there might some reason to believe that her being dead doesn't really matter. It didn't matter what Susan was doing after she and Harry got separated, it didn't matter what Thomas was doing either for Justine to keep the protection, it only ever mattered what Harry and Justine did themselves to get the protection removed from themselves (sleeping with Luccio and other women, respectively).
I don't think it's 100% clear how the protection works really. I mean, in one book Thomas says Lara has a burn mark from a wedding ring, in Peace Talks it seems like it was only a mild burn what she got from Harry, but also true love is about supposed to be super rare, but Harry gets it twice in his short life (imo, it was ridiculous that he got it from Susan, but ymmv), then you have to add up some of the stuff that's been said in Something Borrowed about true love as well. It's all a bit inconsistent imo. Personally, I wonder how much of all of that is about conscious decisions. But anyway, ymmv about the philosophical concepts of what is love and all of that. I imagine that the next book will bring some clarification over this part of the lore.
One thing that JB has said though, that so far seems consistent through the books, is that the true love protection thing only happens between consenting adults, who mutually love each other and have shared the physicality of it, it doesn't take hold if you don't act on it.
IMO, it seems like a "mark" that is placed on you, that would stay until it gets removed by an act of rejection of it, ie sleeping with another person (because apparently not even time erases it, if we believe White Night).
But yeah, we don't know how death of one of the people involved affects it, my guess though, would be that it doesn't. Harry is still alive, he was already "marked" by true love, he would stay that way until he "rejects it" by being sexual with someone else.
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But yeah, we don't know how death of one of the people involved affects it, my guess though, would be that it doesn't. Harry is still alive, he was already "marked" by true love, he would stay that way until he "rejects it" by being sexual with someone else.
I think at the very least that it is complicated. Harry's love for Susan was apparently true love, he was protected from Lara in White Night. His affair with Luccio canceled that protection, and apparently what he felt for Luccio wasn't true love.. Why? Because she was under a spell and really didn't return it? So then is unrequited love not true love? Some say it was casual what Harry had with Luccio, yet he was hurt when he found out what supposedly she felt for him wasn't real. Can you experience true love more than once in your life? We have evidence that Harry's feelings for Susan was true love... What Harry felt for Murphy sure appeared to be true love.. If it was, just because she died Harry can't turn off the feelings he had or has for her like a facet.
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... My theory about the whole wedding situation is that is, like all of Mab's plans, a multi-purpose thing. I think in part it is about making powerful allies, in part is about isolating Harry or changing his focus, maybe about him making other types of allies, in part is about Molly and making her lose all hope of romance bewteen her and Harry, and it might also be about Mab needing something from the Raith's library that by Harry being close he could get for her, or even for himself, there's probably stuff that belonged to Margaret in there. But I really doubt is because there's a need for an "heir" or something as simple as that.
All of that, yes.
I think access to Papa Raith's library is on Mab's agenda (likely, as you suggest, to power-up Harry).
Further isolating Harry from his Mortal allies (Mab sees mortal ties as a weakness, after all).
The biggest one, I suspect, is that Mab wants to find the Whampire Nemfection-vector: Papa-Raith had Outsider-fueled protections, and an Outsider-fueled curse (that the porn-starlet coven used), and Justine got Nemfected apparently from working closely with Lara. Something seems to be rotten at the core of the White Court.
And -- oh look! -- Mab has a Starborn WK (just the thing for stomping on Outsiders!); time to toss a HarryDresdenGrenade into that bunker.
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Per Something Borrowed (I think that's the title. I don't have a reference handy) The marriage ceremony removes true love's protection. Once the wedding goes down, Harry has no protection from Lara.
Other than Mab's warning to Lara to not feed on her knight.
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Per Something Borrowed (I think that's the title. I don't have a reference handy) The marriage ceremony removes true love's protection. Once the wedding goes down, Harry has no protection from Lara ...
IIRC, that's specifically a Faerie/contractual thing (a marriage being (from the Fae POV) a very contractual affair (oaths &c: "to have and to hold, forsaking all others, from this day forward, 'til death do us part...")). I'd need to go back and read the story to be sure whether Harry was actually that specific in the exposition.
I doubt the Whampire Hunger is affected by the ceremony either way; I certainly wouldn't expect a loveless political marriage to convey any protections, so I don't see why a political marriage would end them.
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IIRC, that's specifically a Faerie/contractual thing (a marriage being (from the Fae POV) a very contractual affair (oaths &c: "to have and to hold, forsaking all others, from this day forward, 'til death do us part...")). I'd need to go back and read the story to be sure whether Harry was actually that specific in the exposition.
I doubt the Whampire Hunger is affected by the ceremony either way; I certainly wouldn't expect a loveless political marriage to convey any protections, so I don't see why a political marriage would end them.
I think the stuff from Something Borrowed and the Connie and the Big Foot story do a lot to murky the waters here, I've seen a lot of speculation about how that could affect the True Love protection from Whamps. But it's all that, really, speculation, there's no definitive answers yet.
Something that always seemed important to me, though, in Something Borrowed, is that Will was going to make vows thinking he was marrying Georgia. Regardless the bride not being the real Georgia, Will would have been earnest and honest in his promises. So, maybe, that plays a part in the whole thing.
And thinking about that, I honestly doubt Harry would make those kind of vows to Lara, and I know some people would say "but the word of a wizards matters because of his power", yeah, but that's if he swears on his powers, right? which I doubt will be the case here.
Anyway, we'll have to wait and see, but I sure hope to have a more definitive answer on how the True Love protection works in the Dresdenverse soon.
It'd still be just way too tragic, and kind of pointless, to have Harry adquire the physical protection of True Love with Murphy only to lose it one year later. Unless the point is to torture Harry, because how morally devastating that would be, to lose the only thing left from her to Lara of all beings. But that also sounds like how JB is thinking lately, so *shrug*
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Unless Murphy is going to return very soon, I hope Harry does lose that protection from Murphy.
Barring a book with the White court as the primary antagonists, that protection is not a good thing. Maintaining that protection means that Harry remains celibate. While I don't want him to go wild, give the man some outlet for stress relief. A healthy sex life could be the key to controlling the Winter Knight mantle.
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Unless Murphy is going to return very soon, I hope Harry does lose that protection from Murphy.
Barring a book with the White court as the primary antagonists, that protection is not a good thing. Maintaining that protection means that Harry remains celibate. While I don't want him to go wild, give the man some outlet for stress relief. A healthy sex life could be the key to controlling the Winter Knight mantle.
Poor Harry, he never has been into casual sex, and steady ladies have been few and far between, so few outlets.. After Susan left him I think he went about five years protected until Luccio came along, that was short lived.. Come to think of it the time period that he actually had sex with Murphy was only a few months at most before she died.
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Poor Harry, he never has been into casual sex, and steady ladies have been few and far between, so few outlets.. After Susan left him I think he went about five years protected until Luccio came along, that was short lived.. Come to think of it the time period that he actually had sex with Murphy was only a few months at most before she died.
Susan Rodriguez - monsters got her, turned into a bloodthirsty Rampire
Anastasia Luccio - Brainwashed "fine thrall" specifically sent to surveil Harry via pillowtalk &c.
Karrin Murphy - Successively worse and worse injuries until she died.
ALL of these specifically because they were trying to operate in Harry's world.
Harry's lifestyle is awfully hard on the women who get romantic with him.
He needs to get with someone an awful lot tougher... ValkMurpherie, SumMolLady, etc.
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I have to agree that Harry being celibate/lovelorn has become a little stale. He deserves some uncomplicated action.
And I like Lara as a character. I think the books where she has featured have been among the better ones of the series. As far as bad guys go she's OK, on a par with Marcone imo.
And at least she is a fully grown female.
It's better Harry finding himself attracted to her than in previous books where he was noticing how "hawt" the young Molly was, or that other white vampire college girl who was dating Bigfoot's son.
We already have Thomas as a practically celibate, sex vampire, Carlos messed up after the Molly episode, Butters seems to be the only relatively good guy who's having some fun.
Love the books and series, just think it's a pity the gap between books has become so long.
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I have to agree that Harry being celibate/lovelorn has become a little stale. He deserves some uncomplicated action ...
The thing is, Jim has really consistently written Harry as specifically not wanting "some uncomplicated action." So it'd be a substantial break in character.
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Poor Harry, he never has been into casual sex, and steady ladies have been few and far between, so few outlets.. After Susan left him I think he went about five years protected until Luccio came along, that was short lived.. Come to think of it the time period that he actually had sex with Murphy was only a few months at most before she died.
More a couple of days actually. Their first hookup and only was in PT and she was dead in BG. They were going to get together after Changes, but Harry caught a case of dead.
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All of that, yes.
I think access to Papa Raith's library is on Mab's agenda (likely, as you suggest, to power-up Harry).
Further isolating Harry from his Mortal allies (Mab sees mortal ties as a weakness, after all).
The biggest one, I suspect, is that Mab wants to find the Whampire Nemfection-vector: Papa-Raith had Outsider-fueled protections, and an Outsider-fueled curse (that the porn-starlet coven used), and Justine got Nemfected apparently from working closely with Lara. Something seems to be rotten at the core of the White Court.
And -- oh look! -- Mab has a Starborn WK (just the thing for stomping on Outsiders!); time to toss a HarryDresdenGrenade into that bunker.
Thats a great image. Genuinely laughed.
But that seems like a Mab thing to do.
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Thats a great image. Genuinely laughed.
But that seems like a Mab thing to do.
Well, Lara has a couple of things working in her favor, her lifespan for starters, actually she is way older than Harry. So she isn't going to become an old lady while Harry is still in his prime. Her feeding off of his emotions will help keep the Winter Knight's mantel in check so Harry doesn't have to keep killing himself with exercise to drain off the adrenaline. The negatives are of course Eb and the White Council isn't going to be too happy about such a hook up.
More a couple of days actually. Their first hookup and only was in PT and she was dead in BG. They were going to get together after Changes, but Harry caught a case of dead.
Yeah, I wasn't sure of how long exactly so I decided to err on giving them more time hooking up than less. ;)
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Thats a great image. Genuinely laughed ...
Thanks! ;D
... But that seems like a Mab thing to do.
You think Mab didn't envision it in almost exactly those terms?
I'm pretty sure she did!
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I happened to be re-reading Changes this week, and it turns out that the Fae can "lull [a Red Court vampire] predator spirit to sleep." The Leanansidhe claims to have done that with the "vampire part" of Susan and Martin when she rendered them unconscious. As you'd expect in the context, there's no discussion of whether the ability also extends to White Court demons but Lea speaks broadly of vampires.
My money is on the White Court demon being unable to affect Harry as the WK, Mab giving Harry a charm that lulls a WC demon to sleep, or something to the same effect. In such a case, with the WC demon's effects canceled, there would be no reason for Lara to blister (regardless of whether Harry's love for Murphy would still protect him from a WC vampire with her dead) and consummation of the marriage will occur as Mab likely requires.
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I happened to be re-reading Changes this week, and it turns out that the Fae can "lull [a Red Court vampire] predator spirit to sleep." The Leanansidhe claims to have done that with the "vampire part" of Susan and Martin when she rendered them unconscious. As you'd expect in the context, there's no discussion of whether the ability also extends to White Court demons but Lea speaks broadly of vampires.
Yes, she did, however when Harry pressed her on it since he wanted a cure for Susan, Lea got more vague and started to fish for a bargain for information about what she did. However she didn't say it was a cure, so Harry declined to bargain. Also as a couple of us pointed out, Red Court Vamps are very different from White Court Vamps.
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... My money is on the White Court demon being unable to affect Harry as the WK ...
Hope you didn't bet very much!
1. We've seen in PT & BG that Harry is still susceptible to Whamp-mojo. He always notices, points out to Lara something to the effect that she's being rude, and Lara tamps it down; but we've seen that WK-Harry is absolutely affected.
2. I'm quite sure I've seen WoJ that the Whampire-sex-thing and the WK-mantle-sex-thing don't "cancel out" at all; it's rather the opposite, it's more like they are additive... an explosive combination.
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Not sure if anyone not in love is immune
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Not sure if anyone not in love is immune
Well, it is complicated, because being in love doesn't always mean true love. Falling in love can be merely the emotion and or sexual attraction of the moment, where as true love is something deeper and not easily undone.. Which is another glitch in the system if you will, how easily the true love protection is wiped out by a simple sexual transgression.. In other words, a person can be truly in love with someone, have a one night stand that is purely physical with someone else, remain truly in love with that original someone, but because of that one night stand lose their protection.
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I happened to be re-reading Changes this week, and it turns out that the Fae can "lull [a Red Court vampire] predator spirit to sleep...
Well, Lea can. Doubt it's a general thing that very many of the Fae can do! I bet Mab can, and maybe Titania. I doubt the Winter Ladies could do it: Maeve was too much of a slacker, Molly is both too new, and likely still flinches every time she thinks deeply about Rampires. I'm less clear about the Summer Ladies, but kind of doubt it: Winter (as led by Mab) seems to embrace the "knowledge is power" trope more; Summer seems to more intuitively feel that knowledge flows from power.
Also, Lea talked about it as a secret, as knowledge that she could trade for; not an inherently "faerie" power.
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Well, Lea can. Doubt it's a general thing that very many of the Fae can do! I bet Mab can, and maybe Titania. I doubt the Winter Ladies could do it: Maeve was too much of a slacker, Molly is both too new, and likely still flinches every time she thinks deeply about Rampires. I'm less clear about the Summer Ladies, but kind of doubt it: Winter (as led by Mab) seems to embrace the "knowledge is power" trope more; Summer seems to more intuitively feel that knowledge flows from power.
Also, Lea talked about it as a secret, as knowledge that she could trade for; not an inherently "faerie" power.
I think both Courts can do it, I don't buy that the Fae of Summer are less powerful than the Fae of Winter. We have seen both Queens in action in Battle Ground, they seem pretty equal to me. So while they can put the vamp part to sleep, it doesn't mean they can do it permanently. Yeah, well, Lea was trying to make a sale or what she'd call a bargain. The Fae are very good at the con game, while they cannot lie, they are not totally honest either. What they do is push just enough truth, i.e. Lea said she'd trade for the knowledge, which she is vague about, but at the same time not lying about, in the hopes that Harry would be so desperate for a cure that he'd lie to himself about what it was exactly, that she was trading, and make a bargain for it..
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Jim has said that any fight between Mab and Titania would almost definitively be a toss up. I think the Summer Mother in the visit to the Outer Gates in Cold Days talked about Mab and Titania's power being equal. My memory is that Mab is personally powerful and controls vast armies to protect the Outer Gates. Titania is equally powerful with a much smaller army, relatively speaking, as a check on Mab. Mab can't take over anywhere else because Titania would personally kill or maim her if Mab tried anything squirrelly. My strong suspicion is that the Ladies and Mothers are equally powerful as well.
I bet any of the Faerie queens could do remove or greatly restrict the Whampire demon if their job description allowed for it. I don't know if any would. My bet is on Mab and Titania's job giving them the power to do it solely because Mab threatened to make Thomas the Winter Knight and I don't think she would want competition for control or influence on Thomas.
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I bet any of the Faerie queens could do remove or greatly restrict the Whampire demon if their job description allowed for it. I don't know if any would. My bet is on Mab and Titania's job giving them the power to do it solely because Mab threatened to make Thomas the Winter Knight and I don't think she would want competition for control or influence on Thomas.
I'd have to re-read the passage for the precise wording: it could have been just a bluff, a pressure-tactic against Harry. But even so, I'd bet that Mab is entirely-willing to use a Whampire's hunger-demon as part of her manipulation-campaign against a Winter Knight.
Thomas would be especially-vulnerable:
- isolate him from Justine "because training"
- give him tons of hot&eager wintersidhe (from whom he can feed freely without risk of killing them.
Condition him to be unrestrained & incautious. Then, when he has done some mission that made him spend deeply from the Whamp reserves, is desperately (even catastrophically) Hungry:
- make all that Faerie Hotness "unfortunately-unavailable"
- toss a vulnerable mortal Doe his way
Let the virtually-inevitable happen. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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I'd have to re-read the passage for the precise wording: it could have been just a bluff, a pressure-tactic against Harry. But even so, I'd bet that Mab is entirely-willing to use a Whampire's hunger-demon as part of her manipulation-campaign against a Winter Knight.
Thomas would be especially-vulnerable:
- isolate him from Justine "because training"
- give him tons of hot&eager wintersidhe (from whom he can feed freely without risk of killing them.
Condition him to be unrestrained & incautious. Then, when he has done some mission that made him spend deeply from the Whamp reserves, is desperately (even catastrophically) Hungry:
- make all that Faerie Hotness "unfortunately-unavailable"
- toss a vulnerable mortal Doe his way
Let the virtually-inevitable happen. Lather, rinse, repeat.
All of that could be true, but I have reread the passage as well more than once and I think it is all part of the Fae Con.. Harry has been burnt enough by it, that when he listened to Lea's offer he realized she was telling him just enough of what he wanted to hear, so that he would then proceed to lie to himself about what she just told him. No the Fae cannot lie, but they can make you lie to yourself.. That's why trying to bargain with them is so dangerous. How often has Mab smugly said paraphrasing now, "that's what you thought I meant, but that's not what I really said."