ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: exartiem on February 18, 2018, 02:05:57 PM
-
A wild theory just popped (or pooped) into my head. Dumorne was actually Kemmler. Theory is as follows:
Dumorne, as a warden, is in on the final battle with Kemmler. Kemmler, realizing he was cut off from any escape, jumps into Dumorne a la Corpsetaker seconds before the kill blow is struck. Justin, in Kemmler's body, is killed. Justin/Kemmler retires from the wardens, retrieves Bob's skull and the rest is history.
-
It's been suggested before. My main sticking point with that one is that in all Kemmler's time holding Bob's skull, through whatever body jumps he made, he still presented himself to Bob as the same old master, just wearing a different meat suit. Given that Bob is under the pretty clear impression Justin was just Justin, the body swap theory requires an explanation for why he'd bother deceiving his servitor spirit.
Also, I'm pretty sure by the end of his career with all the sick things he did, Kemmler would have been so twisted that he'd have a very difficult time pulling off the stern but ultimately benevolent adoptive father routine he carried off for a couple years trying to indoctrinate Harry and Elaine. Even his apprentices had pretty much gone past being able to pass as not evil-creepy-nuts in a five minute conversation even when it would have been useful to them.
-
Okay, first: Kemmler instructs the skull to keep his true identity secret. This is the beginning of the separation of Bob and Evil Bob. When Bob separates and suppresses the memories of Evil Bob, the memory of his old master's true ID is included.
How fast have the Warloks gone sick-o that we have seen? A few days to maybe a couple of years? Kemmler was unspeakably evil for over a century and still able to be active and keep off the Wardens' radars for decades at a time. He obviously was able to moderate his behavior.
-
“I don’t remember very much of it.”
"Bob. You never forget anything.”
“No,”Bob said. His voice shrank into something very small. "Unless I want to, Harry.”
“You’re saying that you chose to forget things about Kemmler.”
“Or was compelled to,” Bob said.
Based on this, Bob isn't sure who had him forget Kemmler. He just knows he forgot.
“Too late! Whatever you have done to my thoughts, the master will not be pleased that you have meddled with his servant.” ... “Do you know how long I’ve been waiting for that?” the spirit purred, drifting back and forth over me. “Sitting there locked behind my own thoughts? Waiting for the chance to fight free? Finally, you thick-witted ogre, I get to leave your stupidity behind.”
Based on what Evil Bob said in Dead Beat, we can surmise that he knows everything Bob knows (including that DuMorne was killed). We can also surmise that Evil Bob still thinks Kemmler is alive, and that he too doesn't know who made him forget. Which is interesting, because you'd think one or the other would know if they did it, of their own volition or by someone else's.
It suggests that someone might have had Evil Bob suppressed, and had both versions forget why it was done. Talk about double secret probation.
Harry clearly didn't do it.
DuMorne-DuMorne could have, but why would he have both Bob's forget the order? He might have wanted some but not all of Kemmler's knowledge for himself, and wouldn't want to deal with Evil Bob's attitude all the time. But why forget the forgetting?
Kemmler-DuMorne could have, but why bother? He would want to keep his assistant intact to continue helping him. I could see him maybe wanting to seal the more dangerous stuff away, in case Harry or Elaine came across the skull. But again, why forget the forgetting? He could have easily told Evil Bob that it was a precaution.
Kemmler-Kemmler has a good reason to seal Evil Bob away. If he knew the Council Wardens were about to catch him, he wouldn't want his secrets to be easily revealed. But you'd think he'd put better safeguards in place to keep people away from the knowledge. Otherwise when Bob says he doesn't recall, they'd ask him to try, and then Evil Bob would be there.
Maybe forgetting the forgetting was an extra precaution to lower the odds that someone would ask the right thing to bring Evil Bob back?
-
The wild theory is that Kemmler was pulling duplicates of himself from alternate realities much as MM Harry has learned from Bob, and like with MM Harry the 7th time Summons more than is bargained for... Justin was actually alternate Kemmler O.o
-
I'm sure the White Council knows of these Parallel doubles, so they must have mobilized the entirety of wardens, wizards with fighting skills etc to take down as many doubles at once as possible.
-
I'm sure the White Council knows of these Parallel doubles, so they must have mobilized the entirety of wardens, wizards with fighting skills etc to take down as many doubles at once as possible.
I don't think it's been proposed that he was working with his mirrors, has it? It was just the he was using them as bodies to fake his death.
The wild theory is that Kemmler was pulling duplicates of himself from alternate realities much as MM Harry has learned from Bob, and like with MM Harry the 7th time Summons more than is bargained for... Justin was actually alternate Kemmler O.o
Where do you get the seventh time stat?
-
I don't think it's been proposed that he was working with his mirrors, has it? It was just the he was using them as bodies to fake his death.
I'm not sure even the latter has been corroborated. He could as easily have been coming back from the dead by stealing new bodies like Corpsetaker was trying to as using MM Harry's body double trick.
It's tough to speculate on how Kemmler might have used the MM trick of getting one of his doubles killed in his place until we find out whether that spell finds the victim to pull across universes based on a resonance between souls or bodies. In the soul case, if Kemmler and/or his multiverse counterparts were doing fairly regular body-swaps from one living host into another (as opposed to the resurrection method of kicking a native soul out of their body) any alt-Kemmler whose current body doesn't match the current round of wanted posters is basically useless as a decoy. It works better if he's wearing Joe Smith's body and a drop of blood is enough to capture another Joe Smith, though.
-
I'm not sure even the latter has been corroborated. He could as easily have been coming back from the dead by stealing new bodies like Corpsetaker was trying to as using MM Harry's body double trick.
It's tough to speculate on how Kemmler might have used the MM trick of getting one of his doubles killed in his place until we find out whether that spell finds the victim to pull across universes based on a resonance between souls or bodies. In the soul case, if Kemmler and/or his multiverse counterparts were doing fairly regular body-swaps from one living host into another (as opposed to the resurrection method of kicking a native soul out of their body) any alt-Kemmler whose current body doesn't match the current round of wanted posters is basically useless as a decoy. It works better if he's wearing Joe Smith's body and a drop of blood is enough to capture another Joe Smith, though.
Sorry, yeah, emphasis on the proposed. I thought it was still just a theory, but wasn't sure if I'd missed something.
That's assuming Kemmler switched bodies. I don't think that's been confirmed either. But he could probably focus a spell on body (using his host's blood) or soul (using his own) if the series is any indication.
-
I don't think it's been proposed that he was working with his mirrors, has it? It was just the he was using them as bodies to fake his death.
Where do you get the seventh time stat?
Kemmler faked his death 6 times, ergo they killed him the seventh. I know MM Harry has faked his death multiple times with that method, though not the precise number. I am deducing it though, adding in other details like the number of possible futures Molly had was 6, She has a seventh too but that will be what we see of her I think.
It all goes to a higher concept theory that these 7 timelines make up the DF(I did a theory about the pentagram and timelines but nobody got that one), at least currently.
-
Kemmler faked his death 6 times, ergo they killed him the seventh. I know MM Harry has faked his death multiple times with that method, though not the precise number. I am deducing it though, adding in other details like the number of possible futures Molly had was 6, She has a seventh too but that will be what we see of her I think.
It all goes to a higher concept theory that these 7 timelines make up the DF(I did a theory about the pentagram and timelines but nobody got that one), at least currently.
I don't remember the timeline theory. Any chance it's still around somewhere, or you can repost it?
-
I don't remember the timeline theory. Any chance it's still around somewhere, or you can repost it?
i'll prolly redue it eventually, I've been planning on getting back to work on such things some time in the future. Just busy doing other crap, really need to do a whole reread and that's planned for with the side cases release.
I doubt it's still around, it went vitriol(read:me vs the forum lol) pretty fast trying to say a pentagram touched in five places and caused 7 positive timelines... :-/ and that was before i understood the 5 changes cause 5 negative universes overlapping in the shadow... It's were hwwb4 got his memories of Dresden failing Mab.
-
i'll prolly redue it eventually, I've been planning on getting back to work on such things some time in the future. Just busy doing other crap, really need to do a whole reread and that's planned for with the side cases release.
I doubt it's still around, it went vitriol(read:me vs the forum lol) pretty fast trying to say a pentagram touched in five places and caused 7 positive timelines... :-/ and that was before i understood the 5 changes cause 5 negative universes overlapping in the shadow... It's were hwwb4 got his memories of Dresden failing Mab.
Please do, that sounds like some truly epic tinfoil! :)
-
Okay, first: Kemmler instructs the skull to keep his true identity secret. This is the beginning of the separation of Bob and Evil Bob. When Bob separates and suppresses the memories of Evil Bob, the memory of his old master's true ID is included.
How fast have the Warloks gone sick-o that we have seen? A few days to maybe a couple of years? Kemmler was unspeakably evil for over a century and still able to be active and keep off the Wardens' radars for decades at a time. He obviously was able to moderate his behavior.
The first part I buy, the last paragraph I don't. He was a master of necromancy beyond corpsetaker. He would be able to pull it off if he wanted. That said I totally buy that Bob would have known. That's the major part that makes me disbelieve this theory.
-
Bob did know. He compartmentalized the knowledge. He created a new personality for dealing with Harry. One that did not know that Justin was Kemmler. This new personality became the Bob we all know and love due to Harry's ability to alter the nature of things by Naming them. After the battle and Harry became the skull's master, Evil Bob got pushed fully into the background and Bob became the dominant personality, still never knowing that Justin was Kemmler.
-
Bob did know. He compartmentalized the knowledge. He created a new personality for dealing with Harry. One that did not know that Justin was Kemmler. This new personality became the Bob we all know and love due to Harry's ability to alter the nature of things by Naming them. After the battle and Harry became the skull's master, Evil Bob got pushed fully into the background and Bob became the dominant personality, still never knowing that Justin was Kemmler.
I've often wondered about Bob's personality. In Ghost Story, Bob claims that first impressions are really important, which is why he's mostly the same with Butters as he was with Harry. So either A) Harry picked up a random skull and imprinted his 16-year-old personality on Bob, or B) Harry knew what Bob was, which means he had a previous sense of Bob's personality (because I'd imagine he would've had to have seen Bob in action in some fashion), which is why he picked up the skull after his fight with Justin, which means that Harry's original impression of Bob shaped a chunk of, if not all, of his personality. If A is true, then whatever, Bob is Bob because of Harry, but if B is true, then Bob might've been greatly similar to the way he is now under Justin, which says a lot about Justin's personality.
There is, in my opinion, a third option: Justin had a standing order for Bob to lop off his Kemmler personality in the event of his death, which created enough of a blank slate that Harry's personality impacted Bob more than Butters's.
-
I think that bob via butters is so similar to bob via harry is because butters knew of bob while he was with harry still. Butters as the owner formed and impression of how bob was to be based on his previous interactions of bob via harry. This is why I think that Bob has not changed much, other then the fun new Jewish Phrases.
-
I think it is a gradual thing. The longer Bob is with Butters, the more like Butters he's going to become. I think is might have been more rapid with young Harry because Bob was more of a blank slate, having been split off from the main personality. Harry being Starborn might have also had something to do with it.
This leads me to another question: Bob does not have free will, But when Evil Bob made his appearance in Harry's lab, he acted like he did. Can a being without free will murder its master?
Assuming Evil Bob was actually going to kill Harry, that means that either Evil Bob had free will, or Evil Bob still saw Kemmler as his master. This later suggests that Evil Bob knows Kemmler is still alive.
-
I think that bob via butters is so similar to bob via harry is because butters knew of bob while he was with harry still. Butters as the owner formed and impression of how bob was to be based on his previous interactions of bob via harry. This is why I think that Bob has not changed much, other then the fun new Jewish Phrases.
Right, that's the crux of my question: how much of Bob's personality under Harry was based on interactions he had witnessed with Justin? And the justification I use for him witnessing those interactions is that Harry knew that the skull was valuable enough to take with him in the first place; as a 16-year old kid, he had no money, and little more than his pendant, a shiny new blasting rod (courtesy of lessons from Lea, judging from Ghost Story), the clothes on his back, and whatever cash he had stolen from the convenience store. Why on earth did he pull Bob "from the ashes," when did he do it, and why did he do it? If he knew the skull was important, I'd argue that it's because he saw Justin using it, and that formed some amount of his impression of Bob to imprint his personality when it changed ownership, similarly to how it worked with Butters.
It's entirely possible that Harry was searching for Elaine—I think Gryffin brought that up in an older thread some time ago, so I can't take credit (maybe Quantus? I can't remember what day it is half the time, so sorry if I'm misattributing the thought)—and thought Bob's skull was Elaine's, which is why he picked it up. Then Bob took care of the rest.
Anyway, it's all been an ongoing question for me, mostly because it relates to potential characterization of Justin in a way that we haven't gotten in the series. The portion of Bob's personality that's from his time under Justin, if it's at all significant and there is any remaining at all, tells us something about Justin. He might've been more like Harry than the series indicates, at least when he was younger. Maybe he was closer to Harry's personality when he pulled Bob out of Kemmler's clutches as a young man, and something changed over the following half century. Or maybe he was closer to Harry than we thought the entire time, and wasn't as straight up corrupt as we assume.
Or maybe it's all nonsense and I'm reading too much into mechanics that weren't fully fleshed out from the start.
-
This leads me to another question: Bob does not have free will, But when Evil Bob made his appearance in Harry's lab, he acted like he did. Can a being without free will murder its master?
Assuming Evil Bob was actually going to kill Harry, that means that either Evil Bob had free will, or Evil Bob still saw Kemmler as his master. This later suggests that Evil Bob knows Kemmler is still alive.
Evil Bob could've killed Harry by simply following Harry's directions. He was making Harry understand—in a way that would prove to be lethal. Aside from which, he didn't have free will; he was bound to Harry's previous command, which wasn't contradicted ("This conversation is over.") Neither Bob nor Evil Bob has free will; they're bound to whoever physically possesses his receptacle. It's why Harry never really took him out on fights. If someone nabs the skull, they're Bob's new master. When he's on the ground, his ownership is more fluid; Harry can claim ownership from Cowl because Bob wants Harry back, and the rules of his service allowed the transfer.
EDIT: The above is my understanding of things, at least; I'm happy to be proven wrong, as always. :-D
-
Assuming Evil Bob was actually going to kill Harry, that means that either Evil Bob had free will, or Evil Bob still saw Kemmler as his master. This later suggests that Evil Bob knows Kemmler is still alive.
He could believe Kemmler is still alive and be mistaken. He also blamed Harry for his personality split ("whatever you have done to my thoughts") instead of orange Bob.
-
Harry Named Bob, thus gave Bob his own identity. Kind of like he did with Lash. She was a split-off meant to deal with Harry and he Named her and gave her an ID of her own.
-
Harry Named Bob, thus gave Bob his own identity. Kind of like he did with Lash. She was a split-off meant to deal with Harry and he Named her and gave her an ID of her own.
Harry might have given Bob a name and a new identity, but he was the same entity that he was with DuMorne. As near as we can tell, he was one entity for a thousand years or two (can't remember which) until someone partitioned him.
At that point he was something new, presumably from the time DuMorne first possessed him. Harry letting Bob split Evil Bob off was just the last part in the creation of a new entity. If anything, the person that partitioned him created Evil Bob.
Evil Bob is to Bonnie as Partitioned Bob is to Lash as Kemmler-Bob is to Lasciel.
-
Harry might have given Bob a name and a new identity, but he was the same entity that he was with DuMorne. As near as we can tell, he was one entity for a thousand years or two (can't remember which) until someone partitioned him.
At that point he was something new, presumably from the time DuMorne first possessed him. Harry letting Bob split Evil Bob off was just the last part in the creation of a new entity. If anything, the person that partitioned him created Evil Bob.
Evil Bob is to Bonnie as Partitioned Bob is to Lash as Kemmler-Bob is to Lasciel.
Agreed, though Im not 100% sure it was Dumorne that did the initial partitioning (Im like 95% sure though)
-
I think Bob did the partitioning himself. He was given two orders: teach Harry and never tell anyone he is Kemmler. To give Harry access to his knowledge but keep that separate, Bob partitioned himself. Evil Bob was the primary and Bob the puppet. Then Harry gave him a Name, then killed Justin. Bob then became the primary and Evil Bob got locked away.
-
I think Bob did the partitioning himself. He was given two orders: teach Harry and never tell anyone he is Kemmler. To give Harry access to his knowledge but keep that separate, Bob partitioned himself. Evil Bob was the primary and Bob the puppet. Then Harry gave him a Name, then killed Justin. Bob then became the primary and Evil Bob got locked away.
Not sure that would make sense from Dumorne (or a Kemmler-justin)'s POV. The initial (pre-Harry's ownership) event wasnt just a partition; Bob said he had been compelled to cut off as much as he could, and burry the rest. What we saw in DB was only the "what was left" part, there had already been a significant chunk removed, which is something neither Kemmler or Justin would have any reason or desire to do. The only reason to destroy that Knowledge/personality would be if they viewed it as dangerous, either to them personally or if it got into the wrong hands.
Fwiw, we dont really know for sure if the Evil-bob we met in GS was just the additional bits that Harry inadvertently ordered Bob to remove, or if those pieces somehow found and merged with the initial Chuck that Bob said he carved off prior to Harry becoming his owner.
-
Harry didn't order Bob to amputate Evil Bob. He ordered Bob to never let that part out again for anyone or anything. Bob chose to do the amputation as the best way to ensure compliance. Harry doesn't fully understand how Bob works.
Same with Kemmler/Justin. He ordered the spirit to never allow the secret out. The spirit chose partitioning itself as the best way to comply.
-
“Because knowledge is what I am. Losing my knowledge of
what I knew of Kemmler took away a…a big piece of my
existence. Like if someone had cut off your arm. What’s left of
what I know of Kemmler is close to the missing pieces.”
This can be interpreted two ways. The first is Quantus' way, which is that a chunk of Kob's knowledge was cut away, and what Evob knows is what's left of that.
The second way is my way, which is that the knowledge Bob possesses about Kemmler (asshat, WW1, death) is close to the "missing arm", which wasn't actually cut away, but is suppressed as Kob/Evob.
Key
Pob: Proto Bob
Eob: Etienne's Bob
Kob: Kemmler's Bob
Dob: DuMorne's Bob
Bob: Harry's Bob
Wob: Waldo's Bob
Evob: Evil Bob
-
Harry impacted Bob more than butters because
A, he gave him a name and
B, nobody had any knowledge of Bob's continued existence nor has anyone besides Harry (and cowl...) seems to know this, however more and more people know him as Bob... He's growing an identity of his own even if he stays a reflection of his holder... Bob's basically a mini immortal sans the host we have come to see in most all of them.
-
Harry impacted Bob more than butters because
A, he gave him a name and
B, nobody had any knowledge of Bob's continued existence nor has anyone besides Harry (and cowl...) seems to know this, however more and more people know him as Bob... He's growing an identity of his own even if he stays a reflection of his holder... Bob's basically a mini immortal sans the host we have come to see in most all of them.
We have a WoJ that the reason Butter's Bob is so much like Harry's Bob is because Butters met Bob during that time and established a relationship with that personality. It might not have anything to do with having a name. (Or maybe it's a part of the latter). But I wouldn't attribute it automatically to a naming power of Harry's.
-
I think Bob was messed with multiple times. Bob had information cut out of him prior to Harry's ownership. Proximate to Harry's ownership, Bob or someone decided to restrict parts of Bob close to these missing pieces. Harry's order for Bob to remember gave permission for those collected memories to express themselves which altered Bob's personality. When Harry orders Bob to excise those memories, that creates the distinct evil Bob.
-
We have a WoJ that the reason Butter's Bob is so much like Harry's Bob is because Butters met Bob during that time and established a relationship with that personality. It might not have anything to do with having a name. (Or maybe it's a part of the latter). But I wouldn't attribute it automatically to a naming power of Harry's.
Agreed. There is still a small but noticeable shift from Harry-Bob to Butters-Bob, both in color and personality. Butters' Bob is a tiny bit more Selfless and Kind, whereas Harry's Bob will bargain for a night off while a frog demon is trying to rip your face off. Granted, Butter's is an immensely better owner than Harry, mostly because he considers himself a roommate rather than an owner.
-
I just remembered something. Bob is deathly terrified of Mab due to some daliances in his past. From Bob's description of these events, it doesn't sound like Kob did them. So the Bob personality we know might be the base one that Ettienne created. Kemmler corrupted Etob into Kob. Thus, when Kemmler/Justin ordered Kob to keep his secret, Kob went into the background and let Etob take over to deal with Harry. Etob then becomes Harry's Bob.
-
I just remembered something. Bob is deathly terrified of Mab due to some daliances in his past. From Bob's description of these events, it doesn't sound like Kob did them. So the Bob personality we know might be the base one that Ettienne created. Kemmler corrupted Etob into Kob. Thus, when Kemmler/Justin ordered Kob to keep his secret, Kob went into the background and let Etob take over to deal with Harry. Etob then becomes Harry's Bob.
Fair point. Either Ettiene's Bob is closer to the Bob we know, or Bob learned how to kill immortals in the past few decades, which seems a bit unlikely. Wasn't Bob's original deal with Ettiene partly to get away from Mab?
-
Fair point. Either Ettiene's Bob is closer to the Bob we know, or Bob learned how to kill immortals in the past few decades, which seems a bit unlikely. Wasn't Bob's original deal with Ettiene partly to get away from Mab?
All we know about his original deal was that it was Service in exchange for a Sanctum in the Mortal World. And Based on how Bob described it in CD it isnt anything specific or personal between Bob and Mab, Bob is simply afraid of ANY immortal that might have an interest in keeping that particular secret.
I just remembered something. Bob is deathly terrified of Mab due to some daliances in his past. From Bob's description of these events, it doesn't sound like Kob did them. So the Bob personality we know might be the base one that Ettienne created. Kemmler corrupted Etob into Kob. Thus, when Kemmler/Justin ordered Kob to keep his secret, Kob went into the background and let Etob take over to deal with Harry. Etob then becomes Harry's Bob.
I dont think this is how it works. Bob doesnt (normally) Change because of major warping external forces, he changes to adapt to his new owner each time, and we know he's been passed down Wizard to Wizard for centuries, with only the last 100 years actually (barely) accounted for. But we do have WOJ that his personality differences are specifically results of the Owner at the time of their introduction, which is Why Bob resembles a Horny 16yo boy and why Butter's Bob is very similar to the Harry-Bob that Butters first met. There would have been a bunch of wildly different Bob is the past, as different as his Owners.
-
I just remembered something. Bob is deathly terrified of Mab due to some daliances in his past. From Bob's description of these events, it doesn't sound like Kob did them. So the Bob personality we know might be the base one that Ettienne created. Kemmler corrupted Etob into Kob. Thus, when Kemmler/Justin ordered Kob to keep his secret, Kob went into the background and let Etob take over to deal with Harry. Etob then becomes Harry's Bob.
Basically this, but there would have been Proto-Bob that existed first. A SoI that got info he shouldn't have and realized it was going to get him killed. So he went to the mortal world and hid, where he ran into Etienne. He made a deal, and began modeling himself on the mortal that possessed him. Then we had Etob, however many more (because there would seem to be a significant gap between the two, as Kemmler only had Bob for a short time of his existence), then Kob, Dob, Bob, and now Wob.
Remember, Bob is approximate 1,000 years old (circa 1,000 AD?), ran into Etienne around 1400 or so, but didn't come into Kemmler's possession until 1920 or so.
-
We have a WoJ that the reason Butter's Bob is so much like Harry's Bob is because Butters met Bob during that time and established a relationship with that personality. It might not have anything to do with having a name. (Or maybe it's a part of the latter). But I wouldn't attribute it automatically to a naming power of Harry's.
I'm not, i'm giving it to giving a name, a name which is attributed to the self same thing by others as an identity, a mask.
If you really think about what the woj says.. Bob from Butters is directly effected by how Butters perceives Bob, by belief of whom he perceived him to be.
I see strong indicators that Bob is nothing less than an immortal spirit(citation on immortal, inconclusive) tied to reality visa vi contract that defines his existence.... and the kicker is I can replace 'Bob is' with 'Mantles are' and still be on par with what I think. Bob is directly tied to whomever holds his skull last, is effected by them and vice versa, he uses it as his method of 'rent'. It's my belief Mantles do the same with the host directly, which is why the Sidhe whom are largely Mantles are more part of our reality than other immortals and those whom exist, like Hades, but whom have no right's to the mortal realm.