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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on October 21, 2018, 01:09:32 AM

Title: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Yuillegan on October 21, 2018, 01:09:32 AM
Cowl is Justin and Elaine is Kumori. Time to drag out this old theory again.

Cowl:
1. Cowl has appeared in several books - first notable one is Death Masks at the Bianca's ball. He delivers a gift (possibly nemfected) to several guests, but only confirmed through Mab about the Leansidhe. Morgana's Athame is traded for Amoracchius (Excalibur).
2. In Dead Beat Cowl mentions many things of significance happened that night, Dresden is only aware of a few of them. Cowl likely conspired with Mavra and Bianca and her progenitor (Ortega), who's wife Ariana was part of the group that Margaret Le Fey, the White King, and possibly Justin Dumorne were all a part of. A group that might have decided it was time for the White Council to end.
3. A shadowy figure sponsors and is seen in White Knight. Harry seems to recognise his magic as Cowl's. In this book, the Circle is mentioned for the first time.
4. Cowl is an expert at Evocation, Neuromancy, Veils, Ways and Necromancy. He also mentions his skill at swordplay. Why would Cowl have a sword? Most wizards do not carry them. But an ex-Warden would. All his magical skills and talents would make him an excellent warden (excluding the fact he can't use Necromancy).
5. Justin is likely a skilled Nueromancer - he enthralls Elaine before Harry gets to the confrontation.
6. Justin was in the assault on Kemmler. Cowl says he despised the "mad man" Kemmler, despite being his student. He may well have taken the opportunity to erase his enemy for his own ends.
7. Justin was Simon's apprentice. It is stated in Summer Knight that Simon's fortress was impregnable, and the Warden's forensics suggest that someone let them in past the defences. Eb says it would still have required someone who knew the place inside out. Justin is only discounted on being dead, but otherwise as a rogue Warden and Warlock would have been a candidate, who the Council suspect passed on the knowledge to Harry. Now we know that it wasn't Harry - so it doesn't leave much leeway.
9. Simon is said to have been found dead, along with the brute squad. Whilst it doesn't explicitly state his body was found, it would be a hell of a thing for them not to notice his missing corpse. A whole plot point in the series is built around how intolerable it would be to have a high-level wizard turned to the enemy. A missing Senior Council member might have provoked a stronger reaction.
10. We only have Harry's word that Justin died, and that he fought Justin in earnest. Most people thought is unlikely he beat Justin. Fires in stories tend to be useful covers for other events, a physical symbol of chaos.
11. Jim says Justin is dead. D-E-D dead. He has also said not to trust a word he says. JB has also described death as "a squishy line in the Dresdenverse"
12. Many characters, including Mab, have said Death is a spectrum.
13. Harry believed Elaine was dead. Harry was wrong. If he was wrong about her...
14. From a writing perspective, consider Star Wars (one of Jim's favourite stories). Luke is raised an orphan by others, his lovely aunt and uncle. He then goes on an apprenticeship with a wise old mentor. He is told his father was a Jedi, who his most feared enemy killed. Vader reveals he is Lukes father, which Luke is in denial about but realises must be true. Obi-wan does the fae-speak of half truths (When your father became Vader, he killed Anakin Skywalker). The trope of Harry thinking his foster father and first mentor is dead, who actually isn't would be a good technique and mess with Dresden's psychology majorly.
15. Cowl hides his face, the other Necromancer's do not. Harry suspects White Council. He might be right, but likely that is not the only reason. They even distort their voices. Vader hides his face too - and was a jedi once. Luke just did not know it.
16. Cowl wishes to end Death. Why? The Outsiders might want that, perhaps it would limit the power of TWG. But why would Cowl? Kumori seems to believe him. I suspect it is because he is traumatized by the Death of someone he loved.
17. Justin and Cowl both have links to HWWBH.
18. If Justin is dead, why no Death Curse?

Kumori:
1. Kumori is tall enough to hold a knife to Harry's neck - Harry is 6'9" roughly so not an easy feat.
2. Elaine is described as being tall, tall enough she only has to stretch a little to kiss him on the cheek.
3. Elaine is described as being a better at magic than Harry, while Harry is brawnier. She is skillful enough she is not worried about people seeing through her veils. 
4. Kumori seems to use less brawn and more subtler magic than Cowl; less of a duelist but still deadly.
5. Kumori is a distinctly japanese name.
6. Elaine uses japanese as her magic words.
7. Kumori shows compassion - she resurrects a dead gunman of Marcone's for apparently no other reason than because she thinks she should.
8. Elaine has shown much compassion for her fellows, whilst still distrusting the institution of the White Council.
9. Elaine was the Emmisary of Summer/Harry's opposite. She says she was part of the Summer Court for a long time. Summer has been involved unusually in the books. Mostly ambivalent or directly in contest with Dresden. Rarely against the foes of Dresden.
10. Kumori and Elaine show compassion for Dresden, but not so much that it impedes their goals.

Bit of a wild theory here. I believe Justin was in love with Maggie. They had a relationship and they both felt the White Council was too harsh and too rigid. Maggie and Justin had two children - Elaine and Harry (perhaps twins?). Elaine is older than Harry - he is always referred to as Margaret's youngest. When Maggie was killed by the White Court - Justin was furious. But he could not yet move against them. He finally gets his children back when Malcolm died. He raises them to be his disciples and enforces but it goes wrong and he either dies and is revived or fakes his own death. He finally gets his revenge by "accidentally" murdering half the White Court when his uber-ghouls start murdering everyone. He definitely would want to end Death as he is still grieving Maggie.

From a writing perspective (and fitting nicely with the Star Wars inspiration) - it would be a major shock to discover not only is Justin alive, but he is Cowl and been orchestrating all the terrible stuff in Dresden's life. It would also majorly freak Dresden out is he realised Elaine was his sister, something Justin would have definitely encouraged (like a good cult leader). It also matches the weird Luke-Leia thing. Finally, you might argue Dresden should have recognised Justin's magic. I think he sort of did without realising it. Cowl's magic is human, with a bit of Dark Magic in it - unlike the Mavra or even the Corpsetaker. Harry recognises so is his, which makes sense when you realise he was taught all the basics by Justin/Cowl. I also believe Justin will likely kill Ebenezar while he tries to protect Harry. Very common trope. Harry might find it very hard to be good when he realises his whole life is a lie, he was born to be a weapon, he commited incest (potentially) and that his mother was in on it for a long time. Harry is given power over Outsiders. Yes he uses this as a weapon - but perhaps the real purpose is to be a leader (very Hellboy in my mind).

Anyway, have at it. Let's debate this all again!
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: groinkick on October 21, 2018, 03:35:10 AM
Main problem I think is it was inferred that Harry and Elaine had sex as teenagers......  I don't think Jim would do that if they were brother and sister.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: ViperMagnum357 on October 21, 2018, 04:42:33 AM
Another one of these, eh? I will do what I usually do, and throw my hat in the ring for Kumori being Faith Astor. Never had a strong opinion on Cowl, oddly enough-that particular mystery just never interested me all that much.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Yuillegan on October 21, 2018, 04:49:54 AM
Why not? It is messed up, so was that plot point in Star Wars. They never had any kid either - so despite that it is incest it causes no physical trouble. And even though the grew up together from 10 to 16, and even though it might be understandable they had sex (as they were both hormonal teens), it is still weird as even if they wern't blood relatives as they were closer to being brother and sister than just regular friends. I mean they shared the same bedroom, lived in the same house, lived as brother and sister in a way. Being blood related isn't all that stops people having sex (unfortunately history is full of people screwing their relatives, not to mention there are cases of it happening all the time), despite the danger to children born of incest. It is less weird in many ways to start having sex with someone you know a lot less well than a family member. It is very weird grow up with someone in the same house and then start having sex with them, even if you didn't know they were blood you probably still shouldn't be doing it. Knowing that someone is your blood relative should not be the main reason not to sleep with them.

Why Faith Astor? That seems quite out of left field.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: ViperMagnum357 on October 21, 2018, 05:47:38 AM
I zeroed in on Faith Astor because of a few WOJ's, some of which have been floating around longer than I have been reading the series. One of them is the Faith Astor will return near the end of the series and bring Harry a case that helps kick off the BAT; a couple others I kinda-sorta remember but could have mixed the details concern Kumori. I think one of them is that we have met Kumori elsewhere in the series under another name, and that 'her identity will hurt Harry'. (if someone has those WOJ's feel feel to chime in and correct me, since my computer ate those bookmarks).

Working from that, I think there is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence: Kumori would have been approximately the right age to attend the soiree in GP alongside her master as an apprentice, and another 3-4 years on in Dead Beat she would be the right age to be a newly minted spellslinger in her own right. When Harry meets Faith in the chronologically first story, she is young enough that she has not hit puberty and her growth spurt; that means if she developed magical talent it would likely have been after, and it is difficult to get a fix on someone's adult height at that age; let alone what their voice will be. That would explain Harry not recognizing Kumori at all, yet Kumori having a genuine care about what happened to Harry's hand and (apparently) warning him off without the say so of her superior.

As for hurting Harry: finding out one of the first people he saved in Chicago developed into a Wizard level talent under his nose, who was exposed to the supernatural and likely at least partly inspired to develop those abilities on account of her interaction with Harry...then getting scooped up and corrupted by some of the worst bad guys around? That might hurt Harry more than anything that does not involve his children, his brother, Murphy, or Michael's family. Having Molly version 0.5 with a terrible family now working for the baddest of the bad guys, except he never saved her, is going to hit Harry right in his little orphan heart.

The last piece of circumstantial stuff is that whatever Faith does will at least partially light the final fuse of the BAT; in keeping with the original noir-ish trappings of the series, Faith showing up at whatever serves as Harry's office at the point as the archetypal femme fatale would be very appropriate. And of all the things that could touch off a final scramble before the BAT, a high ranking member of the Circle offering to turn the equivalent of state's evidence on the bad guys in return for protection and the chance to walk away might be near the top of the list. If Kumori approaches Harry Dresden and offers to tell him everything she knows about the bad guys, that is the 'break glass in case of emergency' moment for the bad guys, exactly the sort of thing that would incite them to jump the gun and touch off something apocalyptic before all the pieces are in place; and give the good guys a chance to steal a win they would have little hope of achieving on their own.

 Faith being Kumori provides a good explanation linking all the pieces together without creating any obvious contradictions I can see; and it does not rely on alternate universes, time travel, or Elaine being evil (I think she will replace Fix as Summer Knight within the next 3 books).
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Yuillegan on October 21, 2018, 06:46:58 AM
An interesting argument. Certainly possible at any rate. I don't remember that particular WOJ about her identity being someone that will hurt Harry but I am not doubting it either. Makes much more sense though if Kumori is Elaine, particularly in the context on Cowl being Justin.

It seems to me though that most of the reasons you justify Faith being Kumori work just as well for Elaine. The age of Kumori, the fact it will hit in right in the heart, even the femme fatale turning coat on her organisation.

I suspect thought the reason Harry doesn't recognise Kumori is that she is deliberately concealing herself. Her voice, her physical features, it isn't a stretch to say she could hide her magical signature. Elaine by all accounts is better at magic, especially the subtler parts, than Dresden. Kumori and Cowl have definitely shown knowledge and power outweighing Dresden. He mostly gets lucky when he has beaten them.

Elaine being Kumori does not necessarily demand that she is Evil. After all, Kumori is not necessarily evil. Few villains, especially humans, consider themselves the bad guy. Cowl and Kumori have both stated they believe they are working for the greater good, and that what they do is a necessary evil. Elaine has also shown a similar mindset in Summer Knight, believing herself trapped but fighting from within. Which makes all the more sense when you consider if Kumori is Elaine, she is enthralled by a bunch of mind magic spells making her loyal to Justin. She only can do what she can with in her limits to help Harry. But perhaps like any person in a cult, she has begun to drink the Kool-Aid.

And I also wonder if Elaine will become the Summer Knight. It has a certain symmetry, all the more if she is the other Starborn and Dresden's opposite. It has a duality. It also makes sense in terms of her being Kumori, WOJ is the Titania will only start showing up a lot more towards the BAT, the Circle having their own faerie knight balances the tables.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Snark Knight on October 21, 2018, 05:53:44 PM
An interesting argument. Certainly possible at any rate. I don't remember that particular WOJ about her identity being someone that will hurt Harry but I am not doubting it either. Makes much more sense though if Kumori is Elaine, particularly in the context on Cowl being Justin.

I recall that one too. Someone asked in a Q&A if Kumori was D.E.D. from the blast when the Darkhallow backfired like Harry and Bob originally assumed, and Jim's answer was something along the lines of 'Why kill off a character when I can reuse her and have her identity cause Harry pain?'.

It's probably actually the biggest single piece of evidence for narrowing down Kumori's identity. There are less than a dozen magically talented female characters who it would personally hurt Harry to find out were working for the Circle.

Elaine
Faith Astor*
Jenny Sells*
Kim Delaney brought back by Cowl's necromancy (which would actually rather neatly explain her motivation to end death, her reluctance to strike at Harry, and her certainty she couldn't escape Cowl if she flipped on him ... I regard it as unlikely, but I can't see a reason it's impossible)
Maggie Sr**
Maggie Jr**
Molly**
Luccio**

* If they even developed wizard-level talents later in life
** In case of time travel / alt universe shenanigans that would cheapen the identity reveal anyway


As for Cowl, most of your points favouring him as Justin could also apply to the case for him being Simon. If the fake death curse was explosive enough, it might have been natural to assume his body was totally obliterated.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: groinkick on October 22, 2018, 03:43:46 AM
Why not? It is messed up, so was that plot point in Star Wars. They never had any kid either - so despite that it is incest it causes no physical trouble.

In Star Wars they shared a kiss.  They didn't have sex.  Kind of a big deal.  From a story stand point I have no disagreement.  From what I've seen from Jim, I just don't see him writing it.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Con on October 22, 2018, 12:19:11 PM
eeeyah I don't think Elaine and Harry are twins. Other than that major plot hole. The only thing I can think of that suggests Cowl isn't Justin, is that Cowl was eager to test his skills in Wizard Combat against Harry due to Harry's reputation on the White Council. Justin would have more than enough experience fighting Harry having taught him most of what he knows, as well as the fateful duel where he died.

Personally I think Cowl is Simon Pietrovich, who took up where Justin left off. In the RPG Paranet Papers it is clear that Simon has a history of going against the White Councils wishes, to the point where Ebenezar had to reprimand him officially as the Blackstaff.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Maz on October 22, 2018, 02:25:59 PM
I know I've voiced this 20x when this topic keeps resurfacing. 

Harry is shockingly observant.  He recognizes Cowl and Kumori later on just from their appearance at Bianca's party.  He recognizes people by scents and nuance and the feel of their magic.  It, as several character have remarked, takes him some time but he always unravels the train of clues.  He knows Elaine so intimately he can psychically communicate with her.  Harry was sitting in a stairwell and had clear view of Kumori, albeit not her face and not her voice.  I would find it improbable, based upon that, that Elaine = Kumori.  Faith Astor? Jenny Sells?  Sure.  Though Faith makes much more sense.  Jenny I think would be abhorrent to the use of black magic based upon the fact that she seemed consigned and supportive of Harry ending her Father. 

I've generally thought Simon Petrovich seems the logical Cowl ... but... its theoretically possible, and adherent to Jim's Word, that Justin is dead and the Justin we know is actually a Corpsetaker-esque reversal by Kemmler.  And then to fulfill the Warden's expectations, he swapped bodies again after "throwing" the duel to Harry for reasons unknown.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: peregrine on October 22, 2018, 04:27:11 PM
Yeah, Elaine survived when Harry thought she was dead, but Harry didn't actually think he had killed her.  Justin, Harry was fairly confident he had killed him.

Also, Harry reached out to Elaine psychically by taking what he knew of her and updating his mental image to get her Name right after the 15-20ish years apart.  Elaine secretly joining with the guy who had enslaved her and working with the bad guys and becoming an necromancer would radically alter her essence in such a way that I doubt Harry would be able to make contact.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: morriswalters on October 22, 2018, 05:58:12 PM
You could assume the Elaine is Kumori, but it leaves you to wonder why Cowl would let his apprentice come to the point of death at the hands of a White Court vampire.  Unless they are so sanguine about death she would let herself be killed because Cowl could resurrect her.

And since JB obviously doesn't believe in perma death, anything is possible.  I mean what if baby Bickett isn't really in that hospital anymore, what if she was rescued by a younger Cowl and the shell is what is left after he moved her spirit to a new body.  Baby Bickett could be Kumori.  Obviously that would make her interested in defeating death and would sure as hell hit Harry emotionally. And so on and so on.
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Why would Cowl have a sword? Most wizards do not carry them.
For the same reason that Harry had a sword cane.  To kill people with.  That in itself may date Cowl.  Harry has always carried a gun, because that what this generation of wizards might do it they go armed.  Luccio carried a sword because that what her generation did.  I mean there existed an era where if you didm't go armed, you didn't go.  And death by magic is black magic.
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Many characters, including Mab, have said Death is a spectrum.
(click to show/hide)
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18. If Justin is dead, why no Death Curse?
Let me set you on fire and see if you can say "Die alone!".


Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Snark Knight on October 23, 2018, 12:43:45 AM
Harry is shockingly observant.  He recognizes Cowl and Kumori later on just from their appearance at Bianca's party.  He recognizes people by scents and nuance and the feel of their magic.  It, as several character have remarked, takes him some time but he always unravels the train of clues.  He knows Elaine so intimately he can psychically communicate with her.  Harry was sitting in a stairwell and had clear view of Kumori, albeit not her face and not her voice.

The Kumori persona might be an artifact of Cowl picking up the threads of Elaine's enthrallment. If she's not acting of her own free will, that might alter the signature of her magic - if recent heavy use of necromancy wasn't enough to throw Harry off of recognizing her anyway.

Besides, Harry is only observant when it's plot-convenient. The flip side is that he's quite capable of ignoring things that might be painful to look into, like how he never followed up on finding out what shady business his mom was actually into, or the probability that his dad's death was not natural after all. He has a pretty big blind spot when it comes to trusting Elaine.

As for Cowl "allowing" the Skavis to threaten Elaine in White Night, Vitto and Madrigal were his agents. The Skavis was an adversary not under Cowl's control. There are a couple of plausible reasons he might not have warned her who the Skavis was - possibly he subscribes to the Mab school of management where if your flunkies aren't smart and strong enough to deal with their own low-level problems, they don't deserve to survive anyway. Possibly if Kumori is a split personality, he can't just show up and give hints to Elaine when she's awake and in control of herself.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Yuillegan on October 23, 2018, 03:50:23 AM
Thank you Snark Knight, for addressing a few of those points. As SK says, Harry is only observant when it suits the plot. Harry completely failed to notice Molly being in love with him, or that the Grey Lady was Molly (and Leah for that matter), he failed to recognise Lasciel's return in Skin Game and he didn't figure out the Kravos/Nightmare situation until it was way too late - and many more besides. Frequently he only figures these things out at the worst time and only survives by the skin of his teeth. He may eventually figure them out, but I think he has a long way to go. They haven't shown up for a while and I'd say we are well overdue for seeing them so likely another encounter will be in the coming book.

I will do my best to address your points individually:

Groinkick - Very true there is a big difference in that respect, and yes I do feel that Jim wouldn't go into such dark territory normally. However even if that part of my theory is wrong, I believe I am close. Perhaps not twins by blood, but by ritual or some such. I think their connection is a deep one. 

Con - What major plot hole? To your other point, I think it is still reasonable after 10 years roughly that Cowl (if he were Justin) would be interested to see how powerful his former student had become. He also acts rather like a disappointed teacher when Harry proves to be such an unworthy opponent. Justin would be familiar with the Wizard that Harry was at 16, not at 26 (by which point Harry head defeated several dangerous sorcerers, minor demons, started a war with the Red Court and killed one of their nobles, stopped a war between the faerie courts and killed a faerie queen - no minor act considering it hadn't happened for almost 1000 years, and defeated several Denarians). I think he was very interested to see how powerful his former apprentice had become. I had not read that information from the Paranet Papers, which I think is interesting however not evidence enough to exclude Justin or make Simon a more likely Cowl. I was persuaded by the Simon argument for a while but I feel that the theory does not fit the facts as neatly as the Justin Dumorne theory.

Maz - I have answered the first part of your comment above. I am confused somewhat by the fact that you believe that because Harry was a few feet from Kumori he should have recognised her. We know that Cowl and Kumori have gone to great lengths to protect their identities through both physical disguise and magic, why then would Harry the Brawler be able to see through their artifice? They both are likely better at that subtle stuff than Harry is and Justin and Elaine both know how Harry thinks, meaning they could tailor it specifically so that he would personally find it difficult to recognise them. And if Faith or Jenny, why did not recognise them? According to your argument he surely should have recognised them by their voice, smell, magic etc. No, I suspect they are not likely candidates. If you were Jim and you wanted to torture Harry (and by extension his readers) who would you pick to make the most damaging impact? Elaine. He knows Elaine intimately, as you say (though the psychic communication is a spell using neuromancy, he could choose to do it with anyone but it is borderline illegal and he invented it with Elaine and they supposedly trust each other) so the pain of her betrayal will be worse than Faith (who he has met once) or Jenny (who he didn't know anywhere near as well).

Peregrine - A reasonable argument, sure. But being "fairly confident" about something doth buttered no parsnips. Harry is constantly reassessing his history and what he believed. He thought he had no family, he thought his mother and likely his father (malcolm) died of natural causes, he thought Eb was just a nice old wizard who raised him well, he thought Thomas was a terrible monster, he thought Kincaid was human, he thought Leah was out to kill him, he though HWWBH was just some demon (not a major Outsider) etc. What Harry was sure of is only mildly trustworthy at best (especially when it comes to events in his past), not to mention things is only "fairly confident" of. The Name argument is a strong one and my counter is two-fold. One, he wouldn't need to know all of who she is to get her Name right. We are constantly reminded in the earlier books the danger of speaking your Name to another person. You don't need to know exactly what the fish looks like in order to spear it, only to see enough of it and have a good enough method to catch it. A clumsy analogy perhaps, but I am a bit pressed for time. Two, JB unfortunately retcons and creates plot holes all over the shop. I suspect this could be one of them if it came down to it.

morriswalters - SK mostly answered your comment for me. Justin teaches and learned in the school of hard knocks, there are many memories Harry has of his harsh lessons. I suspect he expects everyone to be capable on their own merits. In that particular scenario, one should note Kumori and Elaine are not as major brawlers as other evocation specialists and that the Skavis snuck up on her, which is the bane of every Wizard as JB keeps reiterating. Baby Bickett took me a moment, did you mean the injured Beckett child that Marcone feels responsible for? I mean it is possible but that child wouldn't affect Harry on the personal level someone close to him like Elaine or Susan or Murphy would...it is more a way to get at Marcone if anything. I mean the whole Beckett child thing is not something Harry felt responsible for - he just is sad that it happened.

As for the sword, you must remember how uncommon it is that Wizards fight in direct combat, let alone duels. Harry is definitely an outlier compared to the majority of Wizards and even Wardens. The only reason you see more guns amongst the Wardens is that so many of the old guard were killed and Harry was by far and away leading that pack of new guards carrying modern weapons. Harry having a sword cane that he would use, in any fight, is just plain odd by most standards. Especially as he had it long before he was a Warden. Even only one other Wizard who wasn't a Warden carried a sword, and that was the Corpsetaker. And we really don't know much of his past. Luccio carries a sword not merely as as a secondary combat tool, but as a symbol of office and as an anti-magic tool. Yes it was popular with her generation and with most generations right up until the mid 1900s, but mostly the end of the 1800s. Death by magic (to human mortals) is indeed black magic, but Wardens don't just exist to kill Warlocks. That was mostly Harry's (somewhat justified) prejudices. They do spend a lot of time fighting monsters of the more-than-mortal sort, more so really than they do hunt down Warlocks.

When Mab referred to Death as a spectrum, she was not specifically or even indirectly referring to Necromancy and its ability to bring the dead back to life. I suspect the reason they did not simply raise Bone Tony is that having already tortured and killed him, Grevane arrogantly assumed that he had no more useful information. They picked on Butters as they assumed he might have knowledge that they had missed. Kumori's inability to heal a man who had crossed over does not indicate that could not do so under other circumstances, or that another could not do so using Necromancy. She already had pulled off a feat normally reserved for Gods and other similarly powerful beings. What I believe Mab was referring to was the fact that Mortals believe Death to be the end of existence, which is only true up to a point. By all logic in the Dresden Files, once you die you move on to whatever afterlife awaits you which is another form of existence. True oblivion (where you do not exist at all and are not conscious in anyway) might only exist in certain circumstances, but merely dying in the Mortal plane does not take you there. Perhaps some beings mortals and immortals alike might not have an afterlife (e.g. vampires, gods, demons, faeries and animals) but we have no knowledge of that in the Dresden Files. To answer your last bit about Death Curses - who says he needed to verbalise the Curse? By all accounts only by killing a Wizard before they are aware they are dying (which includes Grevane, who simply refused to recognise he was dying) such as using almost instaneous methods allows you to avoid them. Having been burnt myself, and having witnessed some terrible burning incidents in the line of duty I can tell you that while people freak out, unfortunately you can still think. You are not simply aware of the pain - you are aware of the danger and you are conscious enough to try and take action. It is all the more terrifying because you are aware. Besides, despite how many achievements Harry has achieved killing a highly experienced warden with fire magic because he was scared seems implausible. Justin had survived many engagements and as a Warden would have been very capable of fighting. He may have been caught off guard, but he might have also diverted his remaining strength into surviving. He could have opened a Way or switched bodies - most survivors tend to be the ones that rabbit earlier rather than later. If you wait too long you die. End of.

A few interesting things I would like to point out - Cowl has scarred arms. Scars from what? Burns perhaps? Hell of a feature just to throw in there about Cowl. JB is a lazy writer remember.
Also when Harry talks to his Id - normally there is a secondary message that become relevant later (headaches, lasciel, being too closed off etc). In Dead Beat, he discusses Dumorne with his Id several times. It would fit JB's style to an extent to lay the foundations for Cowl's reveal in the first book he is introduced. 
Finally, I really appreciate the debate from all of you. I enjoy testing the strength of my arguments and hearing others opinions. I would love though if someone can rebut anything or provide an alternative to the points I mentioned better - which some of you have but on balance most of my arguments for their identities remain intact. There has not yet been a strong enough counter-argument or counter-theory that I think rules out my theory as to the identities of Cowl and Kumori. But I am sure someone will have a go and I look forward to the challenge!
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: morriswalters on October 23, 2018, 02:52:08 PM
Cowl would be a fool not to tell Elaine of all the players if she was acting as his conscious proxy.  Harsh taskmaster or not. This doesn't eliminate her but neither does it give her a head up over other obvious suspects.

There is no observable point at which someone becomes dead. Death is a process that at some point becomes irreversible from the pov of the dying.  When that point occurs depends on how you get to the point.  A head shot pretty much gets you there quick. on the other hand children have been revived after being  submerged in cold water for more than two hours.  Harry, say thank you Mab.
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Having been burnt myself, and having witnessed some terrible burning incidents in the line of duty I can tell you that while people freak out, unfortunately you can still think.
I have experienced high levels of pain and find it a deterrent to higher level reasoning.  Your mileage may vary.
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Justin had survived many engagements and as a Warden would have been very capable of fighting. He may have been caught off guard, but he might have also diverted his remaining strength into surviving.
Or maybe he just had an off day and got killed.  In combat someone lives and someone dies, at least in it's simplest form.

On the matter of swords, you really haven't seen a whole lot of wizards, one way or the other.  But of the wizards you've seen swords don't seem all that unusual.  In point of fact almost all of the supernatural characters in the Dresden Files involve themselves with swordplay.

edit
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did you mean the injured Beckett child
Yes, my apologies.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: raidem on October 23, 2018, 06:17:30 PM
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Kim Delaney brought back by Cowl's necromancy (which would actually rather neatly explain her motivation to end death, her reluctance to strike at Harry, and her certainty she couldn't escape Cowl if she flipped on him ... I regard it as unlikely, but I can't see a reason it's impossible)

After reading Amber Chronicles I opened to the possibility that Kim Delaney's story wasn't actually over in Fool Moon.  I mean we assume she met her end, but I like the idea that either her death was 'staged' or she was brought back in some fashion.  There is a similar plot of a staged death in Amber Chronicles of Merlin's girlfriend that later becomes some sort of nemesis for him.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Yuillegan on October 24, 2018, 01:41:51 AM
Cowl would be a fool not to tell Elaine of all the players if she was acting as his conscious proxy.  Harsh taskmaster or not. This doesn't eliminate her but neither does it give her a head up over other obvious suspects.
I understand your point. However we are assuming that everyone is all on the same side. There is a theory that even amongst the various villains in the series that there is a larger power play with different groups trying to achieve their own ends. In general I think the other reasons I have outlined give her a heads up over the other possibilities.

There is no observable point at which someone becomes dead. Death is a process that at some point becomes irreversible from the pov of the dying.  When that point occurs depends on how you get to the point.  A head shot pretty much gets you there quick. on the other hand children have been revived after being  submerged in cold water for more than two hours.  Harry, say thank you Mab.I have experienced high levels of pain and find it a deterrent to higher level reasoning.  Your mileage may vary. Or maybe he just had an off day and got killed.  In combat someone lives and someone dies, at least in it's simplest form.

Well sure there is. Not to the naked eye, but certainly we have developed machines and methods that allow us to measure and observe heart rate and brain activity. When the activity falls below a certain threshold - you are declared dead. If your brain activity falls below, it never recovers. Hence why shooting someone in the head is generally so effective. I understand where you are going with this but I think you miss Mab's point. It is Mortal humans who believe that once you "die" it is irreversible. Mab contests this and say that is not true, we just cannot appreciate or generally recreate how we can come back. I think there is a larger philosophical argument here about the nature of death e.g. if you were atomized or decomposed but were completely restored, are you still you? For that to work, a soul becomes crucial as the constant "you" that survives all states of change. Hence the immortal(read: unchanging) soul. But Mab is saying that Death is just a state of change, which both scientifically and metaphorically it is. There is no "end" just the changing of one state to another.

On the matter of swords, you really haven't seen a whole lot of wizards, one way or the other.  But of the wizards you've seen swords don't seem all that unusual.  In point of fact almost all of the supernatural characters in the Dresden Files involve themselves with swordplay.
Well while the White Council has been described - but not many Wizards have been described in individual detail. Most of the Wizards on-screen have been Warden's, Harry or Necromancers. But of the other Wizards - none of the senior council, none of the warlocks, no regular practitioners, only one of the necromancers, none of the grey council...it doesn't seem like many regular Wizards carry swords. I believe in one of the earlier books Harry mentions how most Wizards prefer to just study and hide away from the world and he is the weird one for trying to fight all the time. Even Ebenezar the Blackstaff actually doesn't use a sword - even if he did as a young Warden (though we have no confirmation of that). And I disagree - relatively few characters use swords compared to the whole of the supernatural characters shown in the books. Can you name enough examples? Especially those that use them and don't just carry them decoratively (like Ferrovax or Mavra).

Raidem - love the idea that someone would be brought back, but probs not as an uber-necromancer. More likely a ghost or revenant wouldn't you say? For such a minor character. I could see Susan coming back as a nemesis..but I hope not. I think it might be good to let that story lie where it is. Maybe Maggie Le Fay?
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: morriswalters on October 24, 2018, 03:01:05 AM
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Well sure there is. Not to the naked eye, but certainly we have developed machines and methods that allow us to measure and observe heart rate and brain activity. When the activity falls below a certain threshold - you are declared dead.
Well this was fun. One day we might discuss it in detail, but not in this venue.
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Can you name enough examples?
All the fey.  Both at the stone table and at the Gate the battles are fought with medieval weapons, since JB has stated that guns are unreliable in the never never.  Most of the Wardens.  Most of the White Court, as evidenced by the battle in the Raith Deeps.  Almost all of the primary human characters have used a blade, with the exception of Ivy.  Some of the Denarians with a star for Nicodemus.  JB has evidently had a lot of fun looking up sword types.  Harry is a fencer of all things.  Where did he learn that?  Also in my memory he's never really fought with a sword even though he owns one.  In any case I think that is at least a narrow majority for swords.  Which given the nature of the books shouldn't really surprise you.  Sword fights are so much fun to both see and read about.  And you should look at the video JB did dressed in full armor with a sword.(I think he proposed to his wife)
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Maz on October 24, 2018, 01:42:56 PM
Response
"I am confused somewhat by the fact that you believe that because Harry was a few feet from Kumori he should have recognised her."
Veils are generally not highly effective on Harry.  At close range, he has seen through Mavra and Korrick and Lord Talos' glamours and earlier Molly's.

Faith and Jenny are /FAR/ removed from Harry versus Elaine.  I'm pretty sure I am more likely to recognize my past serious girlfriend who was at least very close to adulthood when we last saw each other versus a little girl who I met for Jelly Sells (under 5 minutes one day a decade ago or another little girl (faith astor) who I met for under 30 minutes 20 years ago. While yes it is possible he might not recognize Elaine under these circumstances (though I'd lean towards yes he would) I don't think you can make Jenny Sells and Faith Astor equivalent to Elaine.

I don't argue the impact regarding Elaine but that's not my logic.  And Jim can of course choose to be an inconsistent narrator and yes he doesn't have Harry dwell on certain topics but to me this would seem to stretch belief.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: raidem on October 24, 2018, 03:57:45 PM
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Raidem - love the idea that someone would be brought back, but probs not as an uber-necromancer. More likely a ghost or revenant wouldn't you say? For such a minor character. I could see Susan coming back as a nemesis..but I hope not. I think it might be good to let that story lie where it is. Maybe Maggie Le Fay?

Early on I believed Kumori might be some time traveling Maggie Sr. 'apprenticed' to Cowl.  That in some of these dealings in the future, Kumori (Maggie Sr.) gains the strength in the past to set right what she and those she involved herself with turned upside down. 

As to Kim Delaney, I agree she is a minor character.  There were two plots that could possibly repeat in DF that I found in Amber series.  1) A lady, presumed dead, returns as some sort of bad actor.  2) A girlfriend not told "I love you" returns as some sort of bad actor.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Yuillegan on October 24, 2018, 11:10:25 PM
morriswalters - I hope I haven't caused you offense. Perhaps we will discuss it further one day. And by "all of the fey" you mean some I think...at that particular battle several characters and creatures were described specifically using other weapons (e.g trolls with clubs, fey with spears, Winter Lady and Queen etc.) But really we are talking about humans, not creatures of magic. Specifically Wizards - who largely rely on magic for combat. My memory of the humans that use swords are (the 4 knights of the cross - butters only technically, Nicodemus himself - I don't recall ANY other Denarians using swords as most rely on their Fallen's monster form, Lloyd Slate and Fix - as Winter and Summer Knight respectively) But most don't (the Denarian squires use guns, Kincaid doesn't use any swords - though he isn't strictly speaking human, none of the cops other than Murphy, None of the Black Court Vampires, only some of the Reds - they also use obsidian axes and blades rather than traditional swords, the White Court Vampires do - but they also use guns and explosives just as much and are considered the most modern of the Vampire Courts, Charity uses hammers, Molly doesn't use swords, none of the priests, not Marcone or his people apart from Gard who is probably a Valkyrie etc.)

Harry likely learned fencing like everyone else does - in a class. Fencing classes are everywhere. But the only teach fencing as a sport, anyone old school (like Morgan or Luccio or Grevane etc.) would have learned it not for sport but for defense. Warden's likely learn it from each other. He has fought twice I believe as he normally likes to express Earth Magic through his sword cane - primarily electromagnetism. He has used the blade though, I will have a search around for the text. But he does it rarely, as like most wizards he relies heavily on magic in combat. Sword users that have been described, especially humans are in the minority in the series. Don't get me wrong, I love sword fights and duels. Great stuff to watch, I have seen many acted out and been to many fencing competitions not to mention watching many online. I have actually seen the JB proposal which was very sweet. But none of this means that Swords are common to humans (especially magic humans) in the series.

Maz - I think you are confusing Harry piercing veils with magic and his powers of deduction. He recognised Talos and Korrick through process of elimination (he knew Auror was behind the theft of power, meaning her people would be the one's with her but he didn't "see through" the veils sphysically. He would have had to use his Sight). I believe in the Mavra case you are referring to is when he first meets her at Bianca's ball. In that case he used his magical "sense" to work out where an invisible person was - but again did not "see" through the veil. He would have had to call upon his Sight. Which he does to Ariana during the duel with her - but any practitioner with the Sight could do such a thing. It is hardly unique to Harry. He is frequently missing veils actually (Cowl and Kumori snuck up on him, Elaine and Korrick catch him straight off guard despite almost being on top of him, Martha Liberty was only feet from him an Ebenezar yet he wasn't even slightly aware of her and Listen's to Wind etc.)

Would you recognise her? Even with a physical disguise that obscured her body shape and face, and a magic voice distorter?  Its conjecture anyway. The fact is Harry does not recognise Kumori. We can only speculate as to why. Perhaps he wouldn't recognise Faith or Jenny after so many years even without all the other disguises, but we cannot know this. And likely if Faith, Jenny and Elaine were all in a room with him wearing a simple mask he probably would only recognise Elaine if anyone. Because of how well he knows her. But if Elaine were Kumori, all the more reason to hide every recognisable part of herself. You don't argue the impact of Elaine, but we do have the facts that support Elaine over the other two (including that the reveal of Kumori will hurt Harry alot) and yet as I understand your argument to be it couldn't be Elaine because Harry is hyper-observant. But if Kumori's disguise trumps Harry's observational skills then your only reason that it couldn't be Elaine falls apart. Realistically if you were a detective trying to work out who Kumori was would you pick the person who most fit the facts or pick a person who might fit one or two of the facts? Does it really stretch belief that it was Elaine in front of him the whole time in disguise? It is a common trope. Not to mention, it actually happened already with Elaine in Summer Knight. She was with the villains from the start yet he couldn't see it at all. Harry has a huge blind spot when it comes to women, especially in the earlier books and especially ones who seem vulnerable. It is constantly used against him.

Raidem - Ah yes I remember that theory. It would be an excellent betrayal. However as we don't yet know how time travel works in the series, it is still a bit of a long shot. Remember Vadderung says that it is difficult and extremely dangerous to mess with the past - not to mention the Law of Conservation of History (as Harry calls it - the effect Odin describes is that events in the past tend to happen always the same way as there is a quality similar to inertia at work). However I could see it being regular old Maggie Snr who has transcended her Death.
I haven't yet read the Amber Chronicles - it is on my to-do list - but in Amber is the lady that returns a significant character? And does is her return a major plot point? Does it have a long lasting effect on the main character? Was there a lot of foreshadowing? And same applies to the girlfriend. And by "bad actor" do you mean villain or is that a specific type of being or class that exists in the Amber Chronicles?
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: morriswalters on October 25, 2018, 01:51:21 AM
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I hope I haven't caused you offense.
Not in the least,  It's a complex topic and would require more work than I am prepared to expend.  Not to mention most people wouldn't be interested.

Gard mostly uses a battle axe. The original question was
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Why would Cowl have a sword?
To which I now answer, because he thinks he needs it.  That and JB likes LARPing with swords. ;)
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Maz on October 25, 2018, 01:24:12 PM
I don't think any amount of evidence will convince you so I'll just provide some additional examples and then call it quits as this seems more WAGish to me than plausible/probable.

Harry saw through Elaine's veil /EVENTUALLY/ when she was assisting the circle.  Yes, it did take significant introspection and assistance but it happened there.

Harry saw through one of Molly's veils and stated to her and similarly in discussion with Bob regarding potions, its harder to hide from multiple senses.  Something, a smell, the way they walk, their mode of speech, etc, would probably show up. 

If an all encompassing uberveil were in place, I don't think Cowl and Kumori would bother with the hoods.  Additionally, maintaining it would deplete them of /some/ amount of power.  Judging by what was going on, I don't think that would have been a good game plan for them.   Now, they could be doing it... but for the same reason you wouldn't break your word when sworn on your power - wizards scrimp and scrape for every advantage and scrap of power and based on what we know of Molly, it would take significant effort to maintain such an elaborate, all encompassing veil.  Perhaps they managed an efficient foci of some sort to assist and relieve significant amounts of power draw but that's wild speculation on my part in order to make the thesis more plausible.

Well, I'm certain some time in the next decade we will have our answer has to who they are and I look forward to seeing it then.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: KipIngram on October 26, 2018, 12:43:41 AM
Cowl is Justin and Elaine is Kumori. Time to drag out this old theory again.

Cowl:
18. If Justin is dead, why no Death Curse?

Oh, very good point...  I realize casting the DC isn't "automatic," but still - someone as experienced as Justin?  You'd think he'd have gotten that in.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: Yuillegan on October 27, 2018, 08:22:53 AM
Not in the least,  It's a complex topic and would require more work than I am prepared to expend.  Not to mention most people wouldn't be interested.
Gard mostly uses a battle axe. The original question wasTo which I now answer, because he thinks he needs it.  That and JB likes LARPing with swords. ;)

Very understandable, I would be interested though. Another time then :) I think anyone in the DFU who chooses to carry a sword that is not ceremonial likely needs it - but why Cowl would need it, or choose to use one is more my line of query. I don't think it is a throwaway reason because JB like LARPing - which is true enough but not the main reason Cowl has one. But perhaps not as I say it is all just speculation.

Maz - not so, if you had examples from the text to support your view I would be more inclinded to agree. For instance the passage you quote is thus

Quote
What unicorn?
I gnawed over the question. If it was indeed a statement of importance, not just a passing mutter, then it
had to mean something.
I frowned. It meant that there hadn'tbeen a guardian around the little cottage. Or at least not one Mother
Winter had put there.
So who had?
The answer hit me low in the gut, a sensation of physical sickness coming along with the realization. I
stopped and clawed for my Sight.
I didn't get to it before Grum came out from under a veil, Elaine standing close behind him. He caught
me flat-footed. The ogre drove a sledgehammer fist toward my face. There was a flash of impact, a
sensation of falling, and cool earth beneath my cheek.

Dresden reached for his sight - he missed Grum (Talos) under the veil. It doesn't explicitly state that Elaine was under a veil, and while you could argue it might be implied, he doesn't see through her veil either. She wasn't even under a veil assisting the circle, the only time she might have been is just before Grum whacked him. If it were that easy to see through veils and recognise persons, no one would use them. Dresden might not be very good at veils (though his skill is highly inconsistent throughout the series), doesn't mean others arn't.

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"Why call him Grum?" I said, scowling at the ogre. "You might as well drop the glamour, Lord Marshal.
There's not much point to it now."
The ogre's face twisted with surprise.
I glared spitefully at the dark unicorn and spat, "You too, Korrick."
Both ogre and unicorn glanced at Aurora. The Faerie Queen never took her eyes off me, but nodded.
The ogre's form blurred and twisted, and resolved itself into the form of Talos, the Sidhe lord from
Aurora's penthouse at the Rothchild. His pale hair had been drawn back into a fighting braid, and he
wore close-fit mail of some glittering black metal that made him look rail-thin and deadly.
At the same time the unicorn shook itself and rose up into the hulking form of Korrick, the centaur, also
dressed in mail and bearing weapons of faerie make. He stamped one huge hoof and said nothing.
Aurora walked in a circle around me, frowning. "How long have you known, wizard?"
I shrugged. "Not long. I started getting it on the way out of Mother Winter's cottage. Once I knew
where to start, it wasn't hard to start adding up the numbers.
"

This is the other passage you refer to. Again - he doesn't "see through" anyone's veil. He used deductive reasoning to figure out who they were. But only after the fact mind you, with some special help from Mother Winter's hint. If he were so good normally, why did he only figure it out when they were all together. Bearing in mind he had not seen Grum, the Unicorn and Auror all together (he had seen them unveiled on the Rothschild tower - but he hadn't yet put it together).

As for uber-veils...you are correct in saying that if Cowl and Kumori could do them they wouldn't need physical disguises and that it is implausible and quite impractical to power and use such a veil for a mortal. However I never said they could or would. I was discussing the possibility of hiding their voices and their magic. They don't need to hide their faces or body shapes, the clothes do that well enough. As for smell - you wouldn't even need a spell. Easy enough to use more mundane methods like perfumes. Harry himself even makes a potion if I recall for himself or Susan to make him vaguely odorless. As for their behavior (speech patterns and idioms, walking style etc) I don't think they would need magic to influence that. They haven't spoken a great deal to him anyway, but after many years Dresden might not recall every intricacy of their behaviour. Not to mention if they were actively trying to conceal such things from him - any actor or spy worth their salt could do that.

Yes time will tell, it always does. But I don't think Dresden's deductive abilities actively disprove my theory. Unless you have a better example of him recognising someone or thing in the series who was actively disguising themselves from him - without him using the Sight.
Title: Re: Cowl and Kumori are...
Post by: morriswalters on October 28, 2018, 02:20:50 AM
For the same reason Harry carries a gun.  Or as Harry has said(and he isn't the first). "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."  And it would be a mistake to think that the enchantments that the wardens use on their blades is exclusive to them.  And to add to my tally, in Even Hand Hendricks arms himself with a sword.

Death is hard to talk about since there is a large question about what you mean when you say someone is dead.