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Messages - crusher_bob

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391
DFRPG / Re: Need advice on a fire-based defense
« on: May 07, 2010, 09:51:27 AM »
For anyone interested in monitoring how much heat it actually takes to stop stuff here's some math:

We'll use as our point of comparison, a coke can full of water (250 mL).
Since you have been holding it in your hand for a long time, the water is at body temperature (37 C)

The specific heat of water is 4.186 J/g per C, so it would take around 1046.5 Joules to heat up your can of water 1 C.

So how much energy is ~1000 Joules you ask?

A 9mm pistol bullet is around 500J, a big pistol bullet (~.44 magnum) is around 1000 joules, a rifle bullet (7.62 Soviet) is around 2000 joules.

So if our heat based shield is based off taking the energy out of the bullets (so they come to a complete stop in mid-air) and just fall down) and transferring that energy into our coke can.

So assuming our heat shield is 100% efficient, and some bad buy empties all 30 rounds of his AK into our heat shield, your coke can full of water goes to ~97 C, not even boiling yet.  But certainly hot enough to burn you if you holding it.  (Somewhere around 45-50 C is hot enough to scald your skin).  A magazine full of fire from a pistol (15 rounds of 9mm) is only enough to raise the temp of our coke can is barely enough heat to raise it from body temperature to hot enough to scald you.

So what do we learn from this?  Enchanted cans of Coke that provide you a fire based defensive shield that stops bullets can totally be tapped from cool and refreshing drink afterwards, as long as you don't get shot too much.   ;D

392
DFRPG / Re: Crafting: Guns & Weapons
« on: May 07, 2010, 09:24:06 AM »
That's a cool idea! Rolling five dice or re-rolling a fail might do it. Hmm...
Haven't had time to run down the exact math yet, but rolling 5 fudge dice, take the best 4 seems to be worth about .85.  So not quite as much as a whole skill point.

393
DFRPG / Re: Evocation questions
« on: May 07, 2010, 06:43:09 AM »
Long post is long.

From a fluff to rules perspective, I'd prefer answer of "why does Harry do X?" to not be "because Harry is basically an idiot," when we totally don't get in text evidence to back that up.  For example, you can make plenty of 'anti-lore' claims against Harry, because he is quite wrong about stuff in the text.  But we don't really have any in text claims about how Harry is bad at whipping ass in combat evocation.  So, we want the rules for combat evocation to not totally shaft Harry for using one element for attack, and a different element for defense (and get nothing else out of splitting up his elements like that).

Depending on how you are allowed to move points around, you are totally rewarded for specializing in one element up to 5 refinement with the restrictive interpretation about how to allocate points, and up to 10 refinement with the loose one.  And that's only with putting points into specializations.  If we want to go with refinement for more powerful focus items, we can totally put more points into kicking ass with just one element.

How's that work?
There are two ways we can interpret how you are able to have specializations. 

The loose way: as long as your point total is ok, and your pyramid is ok, you are good.  So under the loose interpretation (Spirit Power +6, Spirit Control +5, Fire power +4, Fire Control +3, Water Power +2, Water Control +1) is totally ok.

The strict way: you are limited to increasing your specializations one point at the time, and you need to be able to show a valid path from your current specialization allocation to your stating point.  So (+6, ..., +1) is not OK, because you can't get from that total -2 points to another valid specialization allocation.

So, under the loose way, we can pay 10 refinement for a +6 and +5 in the elements we care about, and not even have to buy the other evocation elements.  And since evocations elements are all interchangeable anyway, why would we want to waste points on that?

Under the strict way, we have to go something like this:
Start
Spirit power +1
Refinement 1
Spirit Power +2, Spirit Control +1
Refinement 2
Spirit Power +2, Spirit Control +1, Fire Power +1, Fire Control +1
Refinement 3
Spirit Control +3, Spirit Power +2, Fire Power +1, Fire Control +1
Refinement 4
Spirit Control +3, Spirit Power +2, Water Power +2, Fire Power +1, Fire Control +1
Refinement 5
Spirit Power +4, Spirit Control +3, Water Power +2, Fire Power +1, Fire Control +1

And I think that's as far as you can go without buying other elements.  Someone who is better at playing Tower of Hanoi may come with with a path to +5,+4, etc. without going over 6 total places to put bonuses, but I don't think there is one.

There is probably a way to get more power at the same refresh level by stacking focus items and evocation specializations, but I'm not too interested in finding it right now.

But 5 refinement devoted solely to Evocation is a pretty big deal.  If we got with the loose interpretation, 10 refinement spent on evocation probably gets you into range to throw down with members of the senior council.

We'll take a look using the strict interpretation of specialization advancement, up to five refinement.

We'll take our evocation specialization wizard Conviction 3, Discipline 4
Evo specialization of Spirit Power +1
Focus items for +1 spirit (offence & defense; power & control) (4 slots)

What does he look like at different refinement levels (and assuming he isn't increasing his skills)?

“Other stuff” refers to his most powerful element combination without foci.

Start (Power, Control)
Offense (5,5) Defense (5,5), Other Stuff (4,4)
Refinement 1
Offense (6,6) Defense (6,6), Other Stuff (5,5)
Refinement 2
Offense (6,6) Defense (6,6),  Other Stuff (5,5), plus more skill in elements we don't care about
Refinement 3
Offense (6,8) Defense (6,8),  Other Stuff (5,7), we can switch how our focus items are allocated to get to (7,7)
Refinement 4
Offense (6,8) Defense (6,8), Other Stuff (5,7), plus more skill in elements we don't care about
Refinement 5
Offense (8,8) Defense (8,8), Other Stuff (7,7)

Now, what about the guy who tries to attack and defend with two different elements?

We'll take our evocation specialization wizard Conviction 3, Discipline 4
We assume he'll attack with fire and defend with water.  He wants to be even in attack and defense, but will favor defense if  he has to choose.

Evo specialization of Water Power +1
Focus items from +1 (offence & defense; power & control) (4 slots)
Start
Water Power +1
Offense (4,5) Defense (5,5), Other stuff (4,4)

Refinement 1
Water Power +2, Water Control +1
Offense (4,5) Defense (6,6), Other Stuff (5,5)

Refinement 2
Water Power +2, Water Control +1, Fire Power 1, Fire Control 1
Offense (5,6) Defense (6,6), Other Stuff (5,5)

Refinement 3
Water Power +2, Water Control +1, Fire Power 2, Fire Control 1, Earth Power 1
Offense (6,6) Defense (6,6), Other Stuff (5,5)

Refinement 4
Water Power +3, Water Control +2, Fire Power 2, Fire Control 1, Earth Power1
Offense (6,6) Defense (7,7), Other Stuff (6,6)

Refinement 5
Water Power +3, Water Control +2, Fire Power 4, Fire Control 1, Earth Power1
Offense (8,6) Defense (7,7), Other Stuff (6,6 or 7,5), can shift offensive focus item for (7,7)

-------

So how do they compare?
Start:
Specialist
Offense (5,5) Defense (5,5), Other Stuff (4,4)
2 Element Guy
Offense (4,5) Defense (5,5), Other stuff (4,4)

After 5 Refinement
Specialist:
Offense (8,8) Defense (8,8), Other Stuff (7,7)
2 Element Guy
Offense (7,7) Defense (7,7), Other Stuff (6,6 or 7,5)

So, at the start, 2 element guy really isn’t that far behind specialist guy.  But after 5 refinement, 2 element guy basically has to invoke an aspect every turn to keep up with specialist guy.  Does 2 element guy at least get some advantage of being able to do (7,5) Fire and (6,6) Water evocations compared to spirit guy being able to do (7,7) spirit stuff?  Not when all elements are equal, no.

With my proposed changes, 2 element guy can at least match spirit guy in area of effect with fire, and he has counterspells at (7,5) to compare to spirit guy’s veils (at 7,7).

---

Note that the same dynamic doesn’t apply to thaumaturgy specializations because they do different things.  You can’t substitute a divination of a bit of biomancy.

But even if the evocation elements did totally different things, there is still the incentive to specialize because your best evocation element determines both your attack and defense.

---

Another idea that I don’t have time to think about right now, is to make the advantages of different elements even greater, but add something like a negative aspect to each one that the GM can compel.

For example:
Fire, great for blasting, but hard to control
Fire can get a free area upgrade if you want one.
The negative aspect of fire is that tends to spread.  When you cast a fire spell, the GM can use a compel against you to cause the spell to effect one additional area.

Example, you are in combat, and call up a fire shield.  The GM uses the compel against you to make your fire shield protect some of the enemies as well.

Earth: Lasts a long time, but slow
Earth spells get a free duration increase. 
If you spend shifts for additional increase, you can another one free (so a Power 5 earth spell would be Power 5, duration 1; and could be made power 4, duration 3, or power 3, duration 4)
The negative aspect of earth is that it is very slow to get going.  When you cast an earth spell, the GM can use a compel against you to make you go last in the exchange.

Example, you want to use earth to call up a block to make a zone border.  The GM uses the compel against you to make you go last in this exchange, so maybe some of the baddies with have the chance to cross the zone before you can get the block up.

394
DFRPG / Re: Evocation questions
« on: May 07, 2010, 02:21:38 AM »
Yes, my main problem it that right now, there is no incentive to every do anything outside of your specialist element.  And there is a minor inventive to specialize in spirit, since it explicitly gets the ability to veil, but none of the other elements give you an explicit ability.

Notice how Harry uses fire (and sometimes earth) based attacks, and forces based defenses.  This makes him more interesting to read about, but it the game, it makes him weaker.  So a Harry in the game wants to use fire for everything, and barring special effects, his magic is almost identical to someone who uses any other element for everything.

If there was no mechanical incentive to specialize, then people could mix up their elements however they wanted, and it wouldn't matter.  But there is a mechanical incentive to specialize, so there should also be a mechanical incentive to be a generalist.  And, ideally, a way to differentiate specialized wizards who are at the same power level, but use different elements.

So, if we have a sample wizard with discipline 4, conviction 3 and we are going to make him a combat wizard.
He'll take as his evocation specialty spirit power, and get +1 spirit offense and defense from foci.
So he can throw around power 5, control 5 offensive and defensive spells, and can explicitly veil stuff (with power 4, control 4).

We'll take the same stat wizard who wants to attack with fire and defend with water:
Discipline 4, conviction 3; evo specialization in fire power.  Focus items for fire offense and water defense.
So he can throw out power 5, control 5 offensive fire spells, but only power 4, control 5 defensive water spells.  And if he wants to veil stuff he's only at power 3, control 4.

And when they take refinement, the gap gets worse.
Spirit guy gets +1 spirit power and control with his refinement (getting him +2 spirit power, +1 spirit control, in total); he gets better veils (power 5, control 5), and he goes to power 6, control 6 attacks and defenses.

Fire/water guy gets +1 fire control and +1 water power with his refinement and he's at power 5, control 6 attacks and power 5, control 5 defenses and his veils are still only power 3, control 4

----

And since all elements do everything (more or less), there is no reason to be fire/water guy.  Sure, fire/water guy was a very marginal maneuver advantage, since he gets two lists of possibly maneuver aspects to inflict, but with the stress cost of evocations, you aren't going to stack up that many maneuvers on someone.  The spirit guy is happy with stuff like knocked down, staggered, and blinded.

Even with my suggested mechanical changes, fire/water guy still isn't that great compared to spirit guy
Since both (with 1 refinement) can throw power 4, area 1, control 6 attacks and maneuvers, but at least fire/water guy has slightly better counterspells (spirit guy would have power 3 control 4 for counterspells, and fire/water guy would have power 4, control 4 (plus maybe foci bonuses)).

And now we compare all fire guy to all water guy.  The fire guy can throw power 5, area 1, control 6 attacks while the water guy can only do power 4, area 1, control 6 attacks, but water guy has much better counterspells than fire guy (water guy is at power 5, control 5 countspells (plus maybe foci bonuses); fire guy is still at power 3, control 4).  And all air guy can find stuff like nobody's business, and earth guy can make walls of lava that last a bit longer than anyone else, and spirit guy can disappear.

There's still not much inventive to be two element guy, but at least you get a bit of flexibility in exchange.  It's probably still not enough though.

395
DFRPG / Re: Evocation questions
« on: May 07, 2010, 12:40:32 AM »
Something like this:

Air explicitly gets the ability to do the following:
Eavesdropping (investigation sub-ability)
Examination (investigation related ability), for example, you could walk into the bookstore and use an air effect to speed up your finding of Die Lied der Erlking.

The other elements can do detections to find their own element, for example, you could use earth to find the weapon points in a steel bridge, or something.  But air based detection lets you find almost anything.

Fire:
bonus area:
So if we have a power 5 spell that we want to effect a whole are, we'd normally pay 2 power for that, meaning that if would be power 3, area 1.
If it were a fire spell, we only have to pay 1 power for the first area (but 2 for all the following areas) so it would be power 4, area 1.

Earth:
same trick for duration.  If I want to make, say, an earthquake spell: I start with 8 power, I want it to effect 2 areas, and last for 1 extra exchange.  So that would normally be power 3, area 2, duration 1 spell.  But with the duration bonus for earth, it would be power 3, area 2, duration 2. 
In addition, when you make the roll to extend an earth magic spell, you get 1 free shift to duration if you succeed.  Example, I call up my basic earth shield, power 4.  But the next round, I want to to stick around, so i spend an action on increasing its duration.  I get four shifts for duration, so normally, my spell would stick around for another 4 exchanges.  But since it's an earth spell, it will stick around for additional 5 exchanges instead.

Water:
The counterspell ability is now based on your skill and power with water magic.  So any foci, specializations, etc that apply to water also apply to your counterspell ability.

Spirit:
veils, (which generally act as a stealth roll) and illusion maneuvers go here.

396
DFRPG / Re: Evocation questions
« on: May 07, 2010, 12:15:25 AM »
I'd prefer that there be some minor advantage to each of the elements, so that you occasionally have a reason to do one over the other.

How's this:

Air
You can explicitly listen in on peoples conversations with air, that you can't really do with the other elements.  Plus probably some other detection related stuff.
Advantage: detection
You can use an air based detection spell to substitute for an investigation roll

Fire
Why is the fireball throwing wizard such a standard trope? If you want everything over there blown up, fire is your go to element.
Fire's gets the AOE advantage since it naturally spreads so easily.
Advantage: area
When changing out power for area of effect, you only have to pay 1 power for the first area instead of 2

Earth:
Harry always talks about how 'once you actually get the earth moving, it tends to stay moving'.  So earth effects last longer.
Advantage: duration
When you are spending shifts to increase duration, or are using another magical action to extend duration, earth spells get one additional free shift in duration.

Water:
Running water tends to ground out magic, if you want to counterspell something, you are doing the same thing.
Advantage: magic destruction
This is the element that counterspells are based on

Spirit:
Spirit handles light, os it gets illusions, of which veils become part.
Advantage: illusion
You can veil things as well as create illusions of things that aren't there at all.

So now, your choice of which 3 evocation elements to know how to do has some effect over what sort of stuff you want do.  There's a (marginal_ reason to want to put points into something other than you main element, and even wizards who are hyper specialized in one element feel slightly different from another wizard who is specialized in another element.


397
DFRPG / Re: Rote Question
« on: May 06, 2010, 04:46:12 PM »
Hmm, after reading the rules more closely, I guess I have to agree with your interpretation.  You can throw around whatever power you can control with a rote, and just pay any extra stress that this may cause.

398
DFRPG / Re: Crafting: Guns & Weapons
« on: May 06, 2010, 04:44:21 PM »
Eh? just like it's possible to have weapon 3 pistols, it's possible to have weapon:3 one handed swords.  So cops with Glocks are using weapon:2 pistols, and Dirty Harry is using a weapon: 3 pistol.  So, in the example of stuff like warden swords and the swords of the cross, they are all at the top end of one handed swords, so they are weapon 3.

So, if you wanted something like an elephant gun, or a 50 caliber rifle, or a buffalo gun, or something like that, it would be weapon: 4.  So if you wanted a 2-handed warden sword, for example, you could say it was weapon 4, but remember then you won't have another hand free to use and focus items.  Since the normal warden combat stance is sword + staff (or sword + pistol for some of the newer ones) they like the fact that their swords only need one  hand.  Their main use is cutting though enchantments anyway and making the sword OMG! hueg is not going to help with that.

399
DFRPG / Re: Crafting: Guns & Weapons
« on: May 06, 2010, 03:58:23 PM »
Assuming that every step up in weapon category is supposed to represent a weapon that is around 2-4 times more powerful than the previous weapon step.

So you go from
pistols Weapon: 2
rifles: weapon: 3
50 caliber sniper rifles (and similar) weapon: 4
~25mm cannon: weapon: 5
and tank shells are something like weapon: 8 or weapon: 9

So moving up from weapon 3 to weapon 4 actually is a bigger step than moving from weapon 2 to weapon 3.



400
DFRPG / Re: Rote Question
« on: May 06, 2010, 03:41:45 PM »
AFAIK, rotes are limited by 'taking zero' in both your power and control stats.

For example,
Harry has Superb (+5) conviction and Good (+3) discipline.
He has an evocation specialization for Fire power
And he has a blasting rod (focus item, +1 offensive fire control)

So without the blasting rod, he normally have 6 power, 3 control for fire
and with the blasting rod, for offensive stuff, he has 6 power, 4 control.

So he could have the following rotes:
Without blasting rod:
Fire attack: power 3
This is as much power as he can automatically control with his discipline.  Also, even if he does happen to have his blasting rod handy when he casts it, he only rolls his base discipline to target the rote, since the blasting rod isn't included in the rote.

Fire attack: power 4 to 6
He call call up this much power automatically with his fire power, but he can't automatically control it. So, he would be forced to take fallout every time he tried to cast it.  Note that he takes the fallout even if he got lucky on his discipline roll and happened to get enough control to have controlled the spell as if he were casting it normally, since he's using the rote.

Note that there is an exception here: if you invoke aspects on your discipline roll and now have enough to 'take a zero' and still control the spell, you can avoid taking the automatic fallout.
Example:
Fire attack: Power 5
Normally, Harry's good discipline would leave him looking at 2 fallout here, but if he invoked an aspect to add to the discipline roll, he now has enough discipline to automatically control the rote, so can avoid the fallout.  Also, he gets the to hit bonus on the discipline roll to actually target the spell.

With blasting rod:
Fire attack, power 4
He can automatically control more power when he has his blasting rod, and he gets to target this rote with his improved control.  The disadvantage is that if he loses his blasting rod, or gets it knocked out of his hand, he can't cast this rote at all.

Fire attack, power 5 or 6
Again, a rote that forces Harry to take fallout every time he cast it.  But he'll take less fallout and hit better since he is using his blasting rod.

---------------

Since the minimum stress you can take is 1, operating blow your normal power total doesn't help any. 

A proposed house rule that seems to be OK is that if you 'spend' 3 shifts on your discipline roll, you can reduce the stress of the spell by one.  So with this house rule, someone with superb (+5) discipline could throw power 2 spells around all day (as long as they rolled well on discipline, anyway).  Of course, he probably wouldn't be hitting anything with them, since he's giving up 3 shifts to hit too.

401
DFRPG / Re: Evocation questions
« on: May 06, 2010, 02:17:12 PM »
But if counterspells aren't affiliated with any element, you can't get any better at them with refinement...  And I'd assume that they are supposed to be something you can get better at doing.

402
DFRPG / Re: Evocation questions
« on: May 06, 2010, 01:43:11 PM »
Next, how to the bonuses granted from focus items apply to maneuver spells and 'offensive blocks'?  What about counterspells?

Does it work like this:
I want to cast a maneuver spell that'll apply the blinded to someone.  As this is an offensive maneuver, I get the offensive bonuses from foci.
I want to cast a maneuver that'll apply too fast for the eye to see on myself.  This uses defensive foci bonuses.
What about if I want to apply a beneficial aspect to one of my friends with a maneuver?  Is that an offense or defense? or neither?

Blocks:
I want to bind up the bad guy, so apply a block to his movement; offensive?
I want to make a wall of fire (create a barrier between zones); defensive?

What about the 'block' against magic that Ebenezar was supposed to be doing to Mavra in, erm, Blood Rites?  Is this possible in the game rules?  If so, how does it work, and why isn't it an "I win" button against other wizards?

403
DFRPG / Re: Spell Maneuvers
« on: May 06, 2010, 01:01:09 PM »
Hmm, how about this interpretation:

When you are the target of a magical maneuver, you generally have 2 defensive options: can can attempt to avoid the maneuver itself (just like you would any other attack) or you may attempt to resist the maneuver directly, which may allow you to use a different skill.

If you fail at whichever defensive option you choose, you are effected by the maneuver.  The placed aspect will generally stay for the duration of a scene, unless you make a maneuver yourself (generally, difficulty 3) to remove it.

Additional duration: when a maneuver spell with additional duration effects you, are are unable to attempt to remove the forced aspect until the natural duration of the spell expires.

Example:
Wizard bob throws the spell "Blinding Light, power 4, duration one, resisted with alertness" at a ghoul. 
Bob rolls a discipline result of 5, enough to control the spell. 
The ghoul has the choice of resisting the maneuver with either its alertness (Good) vs the power of the maneuver (4) or it's athletics (Superb, due to speed) vs the to hit roll of the maneuver (5).  It chooses to resist with Athletics, since the odds are better. 
The ghoul fails the roll, and gets the aspect blinded
Normally, the ghoul could attempt to remove this aspect with an alertness roll in the next exchange, but the added duration of the maneuver means it is unable to make the attempt until the exchange after that, when the spell duration will have ended.

[edit]
This still isn't too great, since you don't have to pay stress for regular maneuvers...
For example, I could use fists (or something) to inflict sand in the eyes.  You only have one skill option when defending against it, and I don't have to pay any stress to do that.

So an alternative is you resist the power of the maneuver directly with the appropriate skill, and the duration rule (above) is the advantage you get in exchange for paying stress to get the spell.

So the example would be:
Wizard Bob throws the spell "Blinding Light, power 4, duration one, resisted with alertness" at a ghoul. 
Bob rolls a discipline result of 5, enough to control the spell. 
The ghoul resists the power maneuver (4) with its alertness (Good)
The ghoul fails the roll, and gets the aspect blinded
Normally, the ghoul could attempt to remove this aspect with an alertness roll in the next exchange, but the added duration of the maneuver means it is unable to make the attempt until the exchange after that, when the spell duration will have ended.

So the advantages of spell based maneuvers are:
1 You generally get to choose the resistance skill, which means you can try to hit your opponent in a weak spot.
2 If you have enough power, you can make sure the aspect you stick them with will stick around for a while.

And skill based maneuvers, you don't have to pay stress for.

The disadvantage of this solution is that there is no allowance for magical blocks, which you would expect to block magical maneuvers...

404
DFRPG / Re: Crafting: Guns & Weapons
« on: May 06, 2010, 12:19:46 PM »
Another possibly rules hack would be a master craftsman ability that has something like a hunger track attached to it.

So, for example, if you take master craftsman for guns, you get a hunger track that determines how much cool stuff you can do with your guns before you have to go and spend time building more stuff.

So something like:

Mastercraftsman (-2 refresh)
Gains a craft track based on your craftsman ability.
You gain 3 free stunts related to objects you can build, and each time you use one of the stunts, fill a box in the crafts track.  When the crafts track is full you can no longer use the associated stunts.
You can refill your crafts track by (doing stuff)
You can attach more stunts to your master craftsman ability on a 2 points of refresh for 3 stunts basis.

405
DFRPG / Re: Chicago
« on: May 06, 2010, 11:58:02 AM »
The sponsored magic section claims that Summer's themes are "wildness, birth, growth, renewal, fire".  So summer could be involved in stuff like wild biker beer bashes, starting local businesses, higher education, urban planning, and... arsonists  ;D.  Plenty of stuff to do.

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