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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Conor on May 09, 2013, 10:09:17 PM
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Hey folks,
One thing that comes up from time to time in discussion as we build Ragnarok NYC is: are there any powers etc we need to house rule so they don't break the game?
Things I've heard people be worried about so far:
Evocation
Higher levels of Incite Emotion
And then things like combination of Evocation and Enchanted Items for incredible Defense, stuff like that.
I'm generally pretty easy on this stuff and my default position is to not want to limit whatever's in the book, but I thought I'd invite people here to comment to get the benefit of your experience.
Thanks a lot!
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The only thing I would outright suggest barring is mental damage evocation attacks. It is a matter of some debate here whether or not spirit would let you do it. I tend to think it is probably legal by the book, but it gets stupid really quickly.
A new wizard can one shot kill the vast majority of bad guys with it. (If you are already concerned about the strength of normal evocation, this is that only it bypasses all the toughness powers. Unless of course all the baddies start inexplicably showing up with inhuman stoicism, etc.)
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The only thing I would outright suggest barring is mental damage evocation attacks. It is a matter of some debate here whether or not spirit would let you do it. I tend to think it is probably legal by the book, but it gets stupid really quickly.
A new wizard can one shot kill the vast majority of bad guys with it. (If you are already concerned about the strength of normal evocation, this is that only it bypasses all the toughness powers. Unless of course all the baddies start inexplicably showing up with inhuman stoicism, etc.)
Thanks Polkaneverdies, also I only realized what your username is when I had to type it out!
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Things to watch out for: focused crafters - while you can't take rituals and then add refinements for specializations, you can add refinements for focus items... and focus items can improve enchanted items. The results can easily be absurd.
Thaumaturgy in general - I'd strongly suggest setting specific expectations for time & effort required to accomplish various power levels of rituals, so you don't get some munchkin wandering in and assuming that they can spend half a day making discipline maneuvers of "gathering power" (or, for the creative munchkin, invent 15 different aspects that all completely coincidentally use the character's apex skill to create) and then toss off a thirty shift ritual of doom.
Evocation is - at the refresh level you're starting at - actually much less dangerous, mostly due to the cost of throwing around high-power spells. However, if people can advance to, say, mid-teens refresh, evocation can get rather ridiculous as well.
Another thing to watch out for is stunts - there's some disagreement over how limited a stunt needs to be, particularly in regards to making attack & defense bonuses. Skill swap stunts can also be dangerous - a typical munchkin move is to find a way to skill swap all of their attacks and defenses to a single apex skill, then add stunts that boost that skill in a "limited" set of circumstances... that, on closer examination, turns out to not be actually limiting.
A really obvious example of an overly broad stunt might be "+1 weapons skill when in combat", though most munchkins will go with something subtler - like "defend with discipline when I can see the attack coming", which seems fairly reasonable for a wizard until you consider that, one, if you can't see the attack coming you automatically defend at +0 anyway, and two, physical defense is really about two-and-a-half trappings (defense vs. melee attacks, defense versus ranged attacks, and the one-half is defense versus unarmed attacks - which is included in defense versus melee, but can also be granted on its own, e.g. by the fists skill.)
Alas, much of this advice can be boiled down to "don't let players make hyperfocused characters", and "watch for munchkins", rather than any easily-house-ruleable flaws in the game system.
Oh, and look really carefully at any 'refluffed' powers, or powers taken from OW; while these are often just fine in their original context, many of them are very easily abused. See, for example, the most recent thread about A Few Seconds Ahead (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37793.0.html) - a power which I'd strongly suggest explicitly banning; while it's okay on a low lore character, it's just silly on any of the PCs that would take it. There are better ways to work the mechanics of a precognitive power anyway.
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A strict reading of Incite Emotion combined with Emotional Vampire may allow for two simultaneous mental attacks (or an attack and a maneuver/block) against the same target, seriously messing with the action economy.
While I do believe this to be a valid literal interpretation of the rules, I also believe that it is a dangerous one where game balance is concerned. Tread carefully.
Aside from that, polkaneverdies and wyvern both gave good advice.
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Related, but not actually quite on topic:
I would strongly suggest banning both Demonic Co-Pilot and Feeding Dependency.
Demonic Co-Pilot because it's just annoying to track and deal with all the extra rolls - plus it's trivially easy to get the same feel off a -0 power that allows use of the sponsor debt mechanic for appropriate actions.
And Feeding Dependency because it just, mechanically, does not work. Really, it doesn't. Note that one of the rules for it says you can clear your hunger stress track by succeeding on a discipline roll to control your hunger after a scene in which you've used your powers... meaning the best way to recover isn't to go off-camera and feed, it's to be on-camera, make some trivial use of powers, and then succeed at controlling your hunger when the scene ends.
While it may be possible to house-rule the power into some semblance of functionality, I, personally, would prefer to replace it with a combined temporary power / sponsor debt mechanic - essentially, the powers you've bought and are on your sheet are assumed to be what you can reasonably sustain from your current lifestyle, and you can go beyond that temporarily at the cost of having to deal with the associated hunger later.
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Another power that is potentially abuseable is beast change. An aggressive player can construct their character in such a way as to have very good skills in all areas and steal the show from the other players.
Sample:
+5: Rapport, Empathy
+4: Investigation, Burglary
+3: Stealth, Presence
+2: Athletics, Fists
...
+5: Fists, athletics
+4: alertness, stealth
+3: endurance, investigation
+2: empathy, rapport
...
powers:
-1 echoes of the beast
-1 beast change
-2 inhuman recovery
+3 the catch: silver (common, researchable)
+1 human form, covering:
-2 inhuman strength
-2 inhuman toughness
-2 inhuman speed
-1 claws
(-7 total)
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Another power that is potentially abuseable is beast change. An aggressive player can construct their character in such a way as to have very good skills in all areas and steal the show from the other players.
I'm not sure I agree - the proposed character is certainly very strong... but only when they're prepared. A simple mugging could take out the human form before he got a chance to shift, and it's not hard to imagine fights where going animal form just wouldn't be acceptable (for example, against vanilla mortals with cameras), while the animal form would be very vulnerable to intimidation or other mental attacks. In fact, hit them with a typical White Court vampire, and they just lose - either physically stomped by the WCV's always-available powers, or psychically stomped if they try to go animal form.
It's definitely competitive with a wizard... but I don't think it's more than competitive.
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There's nothing you absolutely need to house rule. The game is generally well balanced, as long as you make sure to interpret the rules in the right direction.
To elaborate:
I think Beast Change is fine. Evocation is fine too. They're both really good, but they're not mandatory.
Evocation cannot be use to make mental attacks. I have decided to ignore arguments to the contrary because they lead to an unbalanced conclusion. Doublethink is doubleplusgood.
Incite Emotion is fine as long as you believe that the +2 bonus does not apply to attacks. Again, use doublethink if necessary.
Thaumaturgy in general can be problematic, since its mechanics involve a lot of GM fiat. It's as strong as the GM lets it be. (True of everything, but doubly true of Thaumaturgy.)
Enchanted items can get incredibly powerful if people specialize heavily in them. Watch out for them.
Don't use Powers from Our World.
In theory Mimic Abilities could be broken in certain special circumstances, but I have never actually seen it be a problem. Nobody seems inclined to try to break it.
Rebate Powers can be easy to exploit, depending on how the game goes. Item Of Power can be free Refresh if the GM doesn't make it otherwise.
Don't get too attached to the Catch formula; it can give some pretty silly results. If you think the number it spits out is wrong, trust your instincts.
Powers in general, especially ones written for NPCs, are often annoyingly vague. Be prepared to use your judgement.
PS: If you decide to houserule, we've got oodles of homebrew stuff to share with you.
PPS: I'll second wyvern's comments on Demonic Co-Pilot and Feeding Dependency. And I'll add that Feeding Dependency is unclear in at least one very important way.
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Things that break your game's skill cap on attacks are probably a dumb idea. Things that can get you an entire combat's worth of attacks at double your game's skill cap (Oh hi, focus items!) are a super dumb idea.
Be upfront with people about what you're going to let them do with thaumaturgy. The ability to do anything with essentially one skill, especially where one of the explicitly listed uses is 'Do impossible things', has the potential to get way out of hand. :-)
If your group has a 'that guy', maybe encourage him to not be a wizard.
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Incite Emotion is fine as long as you believe that the +2 bonus does not apply to attacks. Again, use doublethink if necessary.
I believe this is actually RAW. The entry for the Nixie, a monster with Incite Emotion, specifically states that it makes attacks at <Skill Rating> and not <Skill Rating+2>.
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Really the only thing I've ever had to worry about was control bonuses with evocation. My houserule works like this:
Your attack roll and your control roll are the same, but the bonuses to your roll do not apply to the attack. So if you wanted to do a 7 shift attack with Superb discipline and +2 offensive control, you'd roll (say you get a +1). Your attack is "only" Fantastic, but your control is 8.
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Things that break your game's skill cap on attacks are probably a dumb idea. Things that can get you an entire combat's worth of attacks at double your game's skill cap (Oh hi, focus items!) are a super dumb idea.
Be upfront with people about what you're going to let them do with thaumaturgy. The ability to do anything with essentially one skill, especially where one of the explicitly listed uses is 'Do impossible things', has the potential to get way out of hand. :-)
If your group has a 'that guy', maybe encourage him to not be a wizard.
That's one issue Bedurndurn, out group is going to be a large-scale online chat with a high number of players and multiple GMs, we haven't opened yet and we already have 30-something registered users, that number is only going to grow. I'm inclined to trust everyone but in a group that big you can't keep an eye out for 'that guy' as easily as you can in tabletop.
Thanks for the advice so far everyone, if anyone has more to add please do.
I found that discussion about shifters interesting, their disadvantage of having to shift form really is a nice inbuilt limitation.
Evocation with Focus Items is still one of the biggest worries, yeah. But the more time passes, the more I'm inclined to let things go as they are in the books in most cases and watch how things develop for the first few weeks of the game.
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One power I've found worth paying attention to is Cassandra's Tears. Sure, you can stop NPCs from believing what the character says, but you need to watch your players and make sure that they're not meta-gaming too much, especially if you have a larger player group and less need of NPCs.
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One power I've found worth paying attention to is Cassandra's Tears. Sure, you can stop NPCs from believing what the character says, but you need to watch your players and make sure that they're not meta-gaming too much, especially if you have a larger player group and less need of NPCs.
The best way to handle this is with Compels. Everyone likes FPs, even metagaming munchkins. Often, especially metagaming munchkins.
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The best way to handle this is with Compels. Everyone likes FPs, even metagaming munchkins. Often, especially metagaming munchkins.
Everyone likes FPs. But not everyone likes the Compels that you'd have to accept to get that FP. Metagaming munchkins like weak Compels, but often the GM err on the side of caution and make the FP not worth the Compel, or at least that is the way it appears.
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Yeah, you have to be careful with compels. More than once I've seen a player bristle at a compel I tried to make.
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If everyone remembers that Compels are negotiated, that becomes less of an issue.
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For a large multi group game, I'd pay more attention to effective skill levels (before fate points) than specific powers. Narrow (partial/conditional trapping) use above cap+4, broad use (multiple trappings of one skill) above cap+2, Universal above cap (every trapping of many skills) very focused designs spending more than half their refresh on one thing (Evoker with lots of refinement on a single element is likely to be a problem, a Wizard with the same refresh expenditure, due to splitting between Thaumaturgy and Evocation, likely isn't). Limited uses or extra risk should generally allow for +1 each before you worry too much.
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Incite Emotion is fine as long as you believe that the +2 bonus does not apply to attacks. Again, use doublethink if necessary.
OW at least backs this up.
EDIT: Cesarina Malvora's entry:
"an alpha strike (rolling her Superb Intimidation) that could drive an opponent to his knees in quivery fear (Weapon:4
attack doing mental stress) up to a zone away."
EDIT: Oh, and as Magicpockets said, the Nixie too: "can use its Good Deceit (vs. Discipline) to lay a Weapon:2 mental stress psychic whammy"
So I think that is the intent, though the power description doesn't really make it clear.
Would you apply the +2 to blocks, or just maneuvers?
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OW at least backs this up.
EDIT: Cesarina Malvora's entry:
"an alpha strike (rolling her Superb Intimidation) that could drive an opponent to his knees in quivery fear (Weapon:4
attack doing mental stress) up to a zone away."
EDIT: Oh, and as Magicpockets said, the Nixie too: "can use its Good Deceit (vs. Discipline) to lay a Weapon:2 mental stress psychic whammy"
So I think that is the intent, though the power description doesn't really make it clear.
Would you apply the +2 to blocks, or just maneuvers?
To blocks, too.
If you treat Incite Emotion similarly to Evocation as for What You Can Do With It, then it makes more sense. At least, it makes sense to me when I read it in that context. Incite Emotion describes it's effects and the Emotion-Touch effect can be a maneuver or a block and you get a +2 to that action. This is explicit in the description. Lasting Emotion is an attack, this is explicit in the description, meaning that the +2 for maneuvers and blocks would not apply.
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I apply the bonus to blocks, but the book is written vaguely enough that I can't call the opposing interpretation wrong.
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Enchanted items can get incredibly powerful if people specialize heavily in them. Watch out for them.
Our munchkin has gone for the Batman Wizard approach to solving problems. I've since discovered that it's rather difficult to blend regular magic with enchanted items (he uses water magic with acids kept in enchanted containers that have greater volumes than they should) and that anything he suggest should be examined and then rejected on principle.
Don't use Powers from Our World.
The same holds true for most of the example powers given at the end of YS. Never, ever allow skill boosts through spells or enchantments. That way lies Morrowind Alchemy and munchkins' wet dreams.
In theory Mimic Abilities could be broken in certain special circumstances, but I have never actually seen it be a problem. Nobody seems inclined to try to break it.
I've got a player that is using Mimic Abilities as a kind of Catch 'Em All powers thing. I'll see if I can test this a bit, probe where it can be broken and so forth.
Rebate Powers can be easy to exploit, depending on how the game goes. Item Of Power can be free Refresh if the GM doesn't make it otherwise.
Three players with IoPs, two of whom has good reason for it (one's gradually merging with an Egyptian Deity with an IoP as the catalyst and the other is the son of the Erlking with a Worldwalking Mask).
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Related, but not actually quite on topic:
I would strongly suggest banning both Demonic Co-Pilot and Feeding Dependency.
Demonic Co-Pilot because it's just annoying to track and deal with all the extra rolls - plus it's trivially easy to get the same feel off a -0 power that allows use of the sponsor debt mechanic for appropriate actions.
And Feeding Dependency because it just, mechanically, does not work. Really, it doesn't. Note that one of the rules for it says you can clear your hunger stress track by succeeding on a discipline roll to control your hunger after a scene in which you've used your powers... meaning the best way to recover isn't to go off-camera and feed, it's to be on-camera, make some trivial use of powers, and then succeed at controlling your hunger when the scene ends.
While it may be possible to house-rule the power into some semblance of functionality, I, personally, would prefer to replace it with a combined temporary power / sponsor debt mechanic - essentially, the powers you've bought and are on your sheet are assumed to be what you can reasonably sustain from your current lifestyle, and you can go beyond that temporarily at the cost of having to deal with the associated hunger later.
I'm interested in the temporary power/sponsor debt mechanic as a GM. Can you give me an example of a WCV using his powers and then what happens next using this mechanic?
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I'm interested in the temporary power/sponsor debt mechanic as a GM. Can you give me an example of a WCV using his powers and then what happens next using this mechanic?
How I'd run it: most of the time, you just use whatever powers you've paid refresh for. Let's say you have Inhuman Speed on your sheet - if you use that in a scene, then you get some of the WCV visual effects (silver eyes, etc), because you do still have a "human guise" power - but the resulting hunger isn't overwhelming; your normal feeding habits (whatever they are) are enough to cover it.
But say you need Supernatural Speed for a scene. Well, that'd cost two refresh - refresh that you don't have (or don't want) to spare; so instead, you pay for that with two points of sponsor debt. You get Supernatural Speed for the scene... but it's going to come back to haunt you; at the simplest level, you could skip the next scene (because you have to go feed now), or you could kill some random unimportant mook - either of those would probably pay off a point of debt. Rack up enough debt, though, and the GM is going to start getting evil with it - having you kill or cripple someone you care about, for example, or changing one of your aspects appropriately (which could go either way, really; a loss-of-control incident could promote either "Mortals Don't Matter" or "Afraid Of My Powers", depending on what direction the player wants to take the story.)
Another example of a one-point compel might be just visibly starting to lose control in front of your friends - even if someone like Mouse steps in and makes you back off, that still puts into play an aspect of "Can We Trust Him?" or the like.
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The same holds true for most of the example powers given at the end of YS.
You mean example spells, right?
In that case, let me add:
^&%$ Orbius.
I've got a player that is using Mimic Abilities as a kind of Catch 'Em All powers thing. I'll see if I can test this a bit, probe where it can be broken and so forth.
I wouldn't expect trouble if he uses it for Powers.
What worries me is the possibility that he could pick up a big skill from a powerful NPC and then keep it forever. One lucky opportunity lets you be overpowered indefinitely.
Mimicking the Merlin's Discipline makes using Refinement to boost your control seem weak. Mimicking Shiro's Weapons is way better than True Aim. And so on.
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What's so bad about Orbius anyway? Is it the grapple? Am I missing something?
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What's so bad about Orbius anyway? Is it the grapple? Am I missing something?
It's a thing. A thing that leads to debate.
I think the biggest worry is tthat it allows a wizard to do a DoT spell while doing other actions, which breaks the action economy.
A normal grapple requires a person to use up their action every turn, while a wizard can pump shifts a into duration and then do other actions.
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It also allows the wizard to initiate a grapple without first establishing an appropriate aspect, and allows grapples of strength far in excess of normal (which isn't so much a problem in and of itself as it's something that makes all those other problems more apparent and troublesome)
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The spell should have to be negotiated over multiple turns... The casting places the Aspect SUFFOCATING on the target, which is then freely invoked the next turn to damage the target. And the person who is suffocating isn't really grappled, right? They're just worried about breathing so they don't get taken out? Let them take Actions normally, but they continue to suffocate unless they try to stop the cow patty or whatever...
When I read that spell, I thought it should probably be more like a Thaumaturgy spell not unlike Victor Sells Exploding Heart trick.
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When I read that spell, I thought it should probably be more like a Thaumaturgy spell not unlike Victor Sells Exploding Heart trick.
The spell from the novels that it was meant to emulate was clearly not a thaumaturgic ritual.
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And, the way I see it, if you're "adjudicating it like a grapple" then if someone beats the power of the roll, they throw the goop off their face.
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Two thoughts:
1: I thought there was a rule that the bonus from a Rebate power can't be more than one less than the cost of what it's tied to. So a Cold-iron catch could be worth up to +4 by the rules (very widely known and easily accessed), but if you've only got Inhuman toughness (-2), you only get +1 for the Catch.
2: Orbius looks much less OP when you note that it's an 8-shift spell, so your average player will have to eat at least 4 mental stress just to call that much power, and probably a few more shifts of backlash to make it go off straight. Also, for comparison an 8-shift straight attack will completely bypass the entire stress track of anything without at least Supernatural Toughness (or Inhuman Toughness and Hulking Form).
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Orbius talk. Lovely.
Probably shouldn't have mentioned it.
Well, here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29723.msg1261187.html#msg1261187)'s a relevant link.
1: I thought there was a rule that the bonus from a Rebate power can't be more than one less than the cost of what it's tied to. So a Cold-iron catch could be worth up to +4 by the rules (very widely known and easily accessed), but if you've only got Inhuman toughness (-2), you only get +1 for the Catch.
There is such a rule.
Cold Iron is a +3 Catch in OW, though. Do not ask me why because I do not know.
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Probably has something to do with the fact that, while everyone with any meaningful knowledge of the supernatural knows that Fae are vulnerable to Cold Iron, they might not immediately know that the Billy Goats Gruff are Fae. Harry had to look it up, and get Bob's help (Bob being Harry's version of an extensive arcane library), and Harry is rather more than minimally familiar with the supernatural.
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Also, as Harry points out, most people assume "cold iron" is either pure iron or iron that's been prepared a certain way. They don't realise that a simple stainless steel kitchen knife can do the trick. It's less to do with the Catch being hard to find and more to do with people not knowing how easy it is to find.
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This thread is just great
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I wouldn't expect trouble if he uses it for Powers.
Yeah, that doesn't bother me so much because you have to pay full refresh cost for each power. Plus it keeps the game interesting.
What worries me is the possibility that he could pick up a big skill from a powerful NPC and then keep it forever. One lucky opportunity lets you be overpowered indefinitely.
Mimicking the Merlin's Discipline makes using Refinement to boost your control seem weak. Mimicking Shiro's Weapons is way better than True Aim. And so on.
I've solved that problem by forcing him to keep to the skill cap. He can only take skills up to Superb, with higher ones being lowered to Superb when he takes them. It's mostly for balance issues (as you said), but I've fluffed it as his body's way of minimising the dangers associated with stealing powers. I'm just waiting for the day he tries to take Sponsored Magic from something.
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Subjecting mimicked skills to the cap certainly helps. Don't think it completely fixes the issue, but it certainly helps.