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Messages - Rhetoric

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1
DF Spoilers / Re: Just a guess about Peace Talks
« on: February 09, 2018, 07:50:01 PM »
All those supernaturals and you can't just rent out a conference center.

Erm, why not, exactly?

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DF Spoilers / Re: What clues will we get from Peace Talks?
« on: January 18, 2018, 10:52:51 PM »
I'd love to get an update on Helen Demeter and Amanda Beckitt.

3
DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone's heritage
« on: January 17, 2018, 02:03:24 AM »
I believe Marcone is purely vanilla mortal. To say otherwise detracts from both his accomplishments and the thematic role he plays in the series. And I've done the whole "X-character is related to Y-character!!!" theorycrafting rigmarole in past fandoms, and I've quite learned my lesson. I'm well over it.

That said.

I do still enjoy the pet theory that Mab and Odin had a fling some centuries ago and Marcone is a resulting descendant (though still a complete vanilla mortal). This is very much a pet theory. I don't think it's true. I can't imagine such a revelation affecting much about the plot or the characters. And if it doesn't add to the story, I can't see it being included.

Vadderung (through Gard) pays closer attention to Marcone than I believe their business relationship necessarily calls for. In "Even Hand" Gard appeared to be on the lookout for moments when Marcone made decisions based on moral reasons over pure logic or business, and Marcone indicates this scrutiny is a very regular habit of hers ("As ever, Gard watched me.") I'd also like to bring up Vadderung's words to Harry in Changes:

Quote from: Chapter 21
He smiled, and laughter lurked beneath his next words, never quite surfacing. "You defy beings that should cow you into silence. You resist forces that are inevitable for no more reason than that you believe they should be resisted. You bow your head to neither demons nor angels, and you put yourself in harm’s way to defend those who cannot defend themselves." He nodded slowly. "I think I like you."

One could imagine Vadderung saying the same of Marcone. At least on Marcone's better days. Let's not forget Vadderung helped sign him onto the Accords. Harry (reluctantly) needed to give Marcone better authority to help defend Chicago, and Lara most likely wanted to repay a debt for the Raith Deeps and establish a business partnership (with the possibility of business takeover via White Court vampire feeding). But we don't really know why Vadderung signed, or why he did not do so earlier. One wonders if Marcone's actions in the Raith Deeps had any impact on Vadderung's decision.

"I am... not what I was. My children are scattered around the world. Most of them have forgotten our purpose. Once the Jotuns retreated..." (Changes, chapter 21). If we're ever going to find out Vadderung's specific interest in Marcone, it may be as soon as Peace Talks, where Jotuns will be making their appearance.

As for Mab, we have the obvious base parallels with the cat comparisons (although Marcone has also been referred to as "reptilian") and green-colored eyes that sometimes change color (although for Marcone the change was more figurative than literal). Mab has also established a working relationship with Marcone, one which started before Skin Game and is implied by Harry in "Jury Duty" to possibly be an ongoing affair ("He and Mab had been in cahoots lately. Maybe he’d asked her to arrange it. This had her fingerprints all over it."). Despite Harry being careful during Small Favor to avoid stating his motivations for saving Marcone around both Gard and Demeter, Marcone by Skin Game knows Harry did so at the behest of Mab. There are a number of ways Marcone could have learned this, but Mab may have even told him herself.

The question is why. Mab (or Winter) has, multiple times, in Small Favor, in "Bombshells", and in Skin Game, executed plans which primarily benefited her goals, but also just so happened to benefit Marcone. In Skin Game, Mab and Marcone's scheme is implied to be at least a team effort, if not mostly Mab's idea. But strangely, the first chapter of Peace Talks seems to paint a different picture of events as far as the supernatural community is concerned, if Ramirez is to be believed. ("Marcone maneuvered Nicodemus Archleone into a corner and took everything he had, without breaking a single one of the bylaws of the Accords. Say what you will about the man, but he’s competent. It impressed a lot of people.") Why does it sound as if Marcone is getting most, if not all, the credit? Why would Mab allow this, when the events of Skin Game would have served as a magnificent warning to all against crossing the Queen of Air and Darkness? Is it possible that Mab is personally looking into the success of one of her descendants, one who finally accomplished enough on his own power to warrant notice? Is Odin doing the same?

Eh. Who knows. That's about all I got. This post is sort of a jumbled mess, I apologize. I just wanted to get this paranoid "theory" out for the sake of discussion (and I do enjoy adding fuel to other people's flaming theories). Like I said, I don't actually believe Marcone is actually a descendant of Mab or Odin. I mean honestly, outside of Vadderung mentioning he has children, nothing I wrote above actually has anything to do with foreshadowing familial relationships in particular. I do think there's more at work than we currently know, but I would more readily claim that it has to do with building parallels between Harry and Marcone as rivals and foils to each other.

To be honest, I think I just want it to be true for the sake of the moment when Harry gets to crack jokes about the Mafia don not being purely of Italian decent.

It also helps justify my other pet theory that Marcone wields a Sword in the Mirror Mirror 'verse. And also my other other pet theory that Hendricks's proximity to Marcone is no coincidence, as Hendricks is the latest reincarnation of the Norse hero Helgi, a silent warrior who fell in love with the valkyrie Sváfa, and the two would go on to reincarnate over and over, always reuniting as lovers (Sváfa being an earlier incarnation of the valkyrie Sigrún).

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DF Spoilers / Re: Book 17 Mirror Mirror? Rumor thread
« on: January 12, 2018, 06:50:49 AM »
Chapter 17

Quote
Bob’s eyelights brightened to brilliance and suddenly cast double cones of light on the wall. There was a scratchy sound that seemed to emanate from the skull itself, a blur of a sound like an old film sound track warming up, and then the old spotlight-sweeping 20th Century Fox logo appeared on the wall, along with the pompous trumpet-led symphony theme that often accompanied it.

“A movie?” I asked. “You can play movies?”

“And music! And TV! Butters gave me the Internet, baby! Now hush and pay attention.”

The opening logo bit faded to black and then familiar blue lettering appeared. It read: A LONG TIME AGO, PRETTY MUCH RIGHT HERE . . .

“Okay, come on,” I said. “You’re going to buy me a lawsuit, Bob.”

“Hush, Harry. Or you’ll go to the special hell.”

I blinked at that, confused. I’m not supposed to be the guy who doesn’t get the reference joke, dammit.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Book 17 Mirror Mirror? Rumor thread
« on: January 10, 2018, 04:44:51 AM »
Did a quick skim through Grey's dialogue but I couldn't find any LOTR references. The most overt pop-culture reference he makes with Harry is during the bank break-in, before Tessa attacks Harry in the vault.

From Chapter 35:

Quote
“If I wanted to shut this thing down,” I said, “I could have done it pretty much anytime in the past twenty minutes.” I shifted to a maniacally indeterminate European accent and said, “We’re going through.”

The Black Hole?” Grey asked, incredulously. “Nobody quotes The Black Hole, Dresden. Nobody even remembers that one.”

“Hogwash. Ernest Borgnine, Anthony Perkins, and Roddy McDowall all in the same movie? Immortality.”

“Roddy McDowall was just the voice of the robot.”

“Yeah. And the robots were awesome.”

“Cheap Star Wars knockoffs,” Grey sneered.

“Not necessarily mutually exclusive,” I said.

“I wasn’t worried about you scrubbing the mission,” he said. “I was thinking you might indulge yourself in a little Robin Hood action against this Marcone character.”

6
DF Spoilers / Re: Mirror Mirror Knights of the Cross
« on: October 13, 2017, 01:03:17 PM »
There's a cool bit of imagery from Small Favor that I don't see get brought up enough, from Marcone and Ivy's rescue.

Sanya has given his Knight's cloak to Marcone. Understandable, since it's cold. Harry takes a moment to mention how Sanya's large cloak doesn't fit Marcone's smaller frame. Then later we get to the moment Marcone and Ivy are winched up to the helicopter:

Quote from: Chapter 43
The line came down with a lift harness attached to it. “Marcone,” I shouted over the sound of the rotors and the minigun—which is to say, I was more or less mouthing it exaggeratedly. “You first. That was the deal.”

He shook his head and pointed his finger at Ivy.

I snarled and pushed the girl into his arms, then started slapping the harness over him. He got it after a second, and in a couple more we had him secured in the harness and holding the semiconscious Ivy tight against him. I gave Luccio the thumbs-up, and Marcone and Ivy went zipping gracefully up the line to the chopper, wrapped in the white cloak, the scarlet crosses on it standing out sharply in the winter light.

If such striking imagery--shown during a moment where Marcone is acting on his better morals--isn't some kind of foreshadowing, I don't know what it is.

... Nothing, is the answer. It could be absolutely nothing.

7
DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Second "Small Favor"
« on: September 29, 2017, 01:33:52 AM »
Maybe Lucifer's action was to grant knowledge of how to form a Great Circle and access to the power to initiate them, which was balanced by Uriel granting the skill to use soulfire to Harry. Two acations balancing each other.

Quote from: Small Favor
But I’ve been running some figures in my head, and when the Denarians pulled up those huge Signs, they had to have a lot of power to do it. A lot of power. More than I could ever have had, even with Lasciel. Archangel power.

Lucifer didn't teach the Denarians how to access power. Lucifer was the power the Denarians accessed.

Lucí gave the Denarians access to his power (they used it to super charge 2 pentagram). Uriel have Harry access to his own soul, which he can use whenever. Just like Lucifer doesn't get a new chance to exert his power every time Harry uses soul fire, Uriel doesn't get a reaction every time they use the pentagram. I feel like this is pretty straight forward

Frankly, the fact that there are multiple people here all with different understandings of the same events tells me that this is the complete opposite of straight forward...

Anyway, I find it highly unlikely that the Denarians can now call upon Lucifer's power whenever they please with no further heavenly interference. I think there is an important distinction between the Denarians using Lucifer's power twice, and Uriel allowing Dresden to use Soulfire, which is fueled by Dresden's own soul/power. Dresden doesn't need Uriel every time he accesses Soulfire.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Second "Small Favor"
« on: September 28, 2017, 08:15:53 PM »
We have no reason to assume Uriel was behind both acts in response to the two circles, especially since we don't know what the second act even was.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Second "Small Favor"
« on: September 28, 2017, 02:58:50 PM »
And Dresden got the soulfire right before the second circle goes up, not after. He did a drive by routine on Namshiel while he was running full bore to get inside the circle.

You right, my b.

If we pull up the greater context of that quote, the archangel who acted "overtly and immediately" is Lucifer. Uriel is contrasting his own style with Lucifer's.

I disagree. "Immediately" makes no sense in that context. Immediately after what? In response to what? Not to mention, what about the other circle?

Quote
I stood up and jabbed a finger at the podium, suddenly furious, and screamed, “The Prince of fucking Darkness gets to cheat and unload his power on the earth—twice!—and You just sit there being holy while my friend, who has fought for You his whole life, is dying! What the hell is wrong with You?”

Lucifer acted twice in Small Favor, ergo heavenly archangels were allowed to act twice.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Second "Small Favor"
« on: September 28, 2017, 02:01:05 PM »
Quote from: Small Favor
"You gotta think that maybe there’s a matter of balance, here,” [Jake] said. “Maybe one archangel invested his strength in this situation overtly and immediately. Maybe another one was just quieter about it. Thinking long-term. Maybe he already gave you a hand."

My right hand erupted into pins and needles again.

Uriel implies that another archangel entirely was responsible for the second act. Or the first act. Strictly speaking, we don't which Sign Uriel responded to, as Dresden only gains Soulfire after both Signs are lifted.

Uriel also says the other archangel responded "overtly and immediately." Mab then goes on to say how Uriel is by nature the most subtle of the four archangels, and that when Michael and Gabriel in particular operate, they like to be noticed.

Quote from: Small Favor
The Prince of the Host is all pomp and ceremony, and when he moves it is with the thunder of the wings of an army of seraphim, the crash of drums, and the clamor of horns. The Trumpeter never walks quietly when he can appear in a chorus of light. The Demon Binder takes tasks upon his own shoulders and solves his problems with his own hands.

So if this other act was so overt, executed by an archangel generally less subtle than Uriel... then how come we didn't notice it?

I think the answer is simple: It happens somewhere Harry (and thus the reader) cannot see it.

11
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
« on: September 27, 2017, 11:59:18 PM »
Jim Butcher referring to Marcone as a "paternalistic authority figure." (1h 2m 39s)

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DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone's Age @ SF
« on: September 27, 2017, 11:50:36 PM »
No problem, it's all good. ;D

Anyway, as for Harry's perception of Marcone's age in Helen's soulgaze...

Quote from: White Night
I looked over my shoulder to see a very, very young-looking Marcone.

He wasn't wearing a business suit. He had on jeans and a black leather jacket. His hair was longish, a little mussed, and he also sported a stubble of beard that gave him the kind of rakish look that would attract attention from the girls who fantasized about indulging with a bad boy.

His eyes were still green—but they were the green of a summer hunter's blind, bright and intelligent and predatory, but touched with more... something. Humor, maybe. More life. And he was skinnier. Not a lot skinnier or anything, but it surprised me how much younger it and the other minor changes made him look.

[...]

Marcone had looked a lot younger when he wore his hair longer, less neat, and dressed more casually. Or maybe he'd just looked younger before he'd seen Helen's daughter die.

It seems like "young" was very subjective in this case, referring more to Marcone's... liveliness, I guess, as opposed to his literal, physical age.

13
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
« on: September 27, 2017, 05:39:21 PM »

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DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone's Age @ SF
« on: September 27, 2017, 03:21:12 PM »
... Yeah, great job.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone's Age @ SF
« on: September 26, 2017, 11:13:15 PM »
Found all the relevant descriptions that I could. I might be missing others.

Quote from: Storm Front
His salt-and-pepper hair was cut short, and there were lines from sun and smiling etched into the corners of his eyes.

Quote from: Fool Moon
His skin was weatherworn, with an outdoorsman's deep tan. Creases showed at the corners of his eyes and mouth, as though from smiling, but those smiles were rarely sincere.

Quote from: Death Masks
Central casting would have placed him as the genial next-door neighbor. He didn't have the usual boater's tan, it being February and all, but the crow's-feet at the corners of his pale green eyes remained. He looked a lot like the fictional public image he projected-that of a normal, respectable businessman, an American tale of middle class made good.

Quote from: Dead Beat
He was a man a little over average height, somewhere in the late prime of his life, his dark hair flecked with grey.

Quote from: White Night
He was an inch or two above average height, and had looked like an extremely fit forty-year-old ever since I had known him.

Quote from: Changes
He looked like a man in his mature prime, neat and precise from his haircut to his polished leather shoes.

Quote from: Aftermath
His short, conservatively cut hair was dark, except for just enough silver at his temples to announce a man in his physical and mental prime.

Quote from: Skin Game
There might have been slightly more silver at his temples than the last time I’d seen him, but it only made him look more distinguished. Otherwise, he looked exactly as he always did: calm, alert, impeccably groomed, and as merciful as a lawn mower’s blade.

It appears as though somewhere between Dead Beat and Aftermath, Butcher decided to swap the salt-and-pepper look out for greying temples. That, or Marcone started getting fancy with hair dye.

Also, I don't know how much control Butcher exerted over the comics' character designs, but it's worth noting that in the comics Marcone's hair is colored grey overall.

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