ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on May 20, 2021, 01:13:58 PM
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There are a lot of questions surrounding Justin. How he came to know about Elaine and Harry. That he was raising them to enforcers. Enforcers for what? Ghost Story, when Justin confronted Harry with a straight jacket, Harry asks, "why?" Justin answers;
"You don't have the knowledge you need to understand boy. Not yet. But you will in time."
That is weird, because he sounded just like Eb and Listens to Wind, in Peace Talks. Morgan and Eb both call Justin, paraphrasing "a bastard who had gotten a hold of Harry." But what if unknown to them, Justin was working under orders from the Council? However Justin miscalculated, infected, he was going to double cross the Council, but he hadn't anticipated that Harry would resist his efforts to enthrall him.
Again in Ghost Story, HWWB seems to know all about Harry, he calls him a "child of the stars.." He seems to also know all about Justin's training of him as well. He appears to be testing Harry's potential, as young as Harry is.. One wonders, if HWWB knew all of this, was Justin infected? And on one hand he was working under orders, but on the other hand because he was infected, Justin had another agenda.. But he miscalculated..
HWWB also miscalculated, he was close to succeeding in intimidating Harry and was proceeding to murder him... But he made a critical error, he murdered poor Stan in front of innocent 16 year old Harry's eyes. Harry had never witnessed anything like that, he knew it wasn't right, he knew Stan didn't deserve to die, it pissed him off.. That,I believe was the true turning point in Harry's life, that was the spirit of Malcolm coming through. In that moment he demonstrated "power over Outsiders."
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Justin was definitely cozy with the Outsiders, but I wonder whether he was an infected pawn, a uninfected dupe or simply using them for his own schemes. It seems unlikely that a former veteran warden would be a mere dupe.
Moreover, the fact that he had "adopted" two Starborn Wizards -- in fact, the ONLY two Starborn Wizards -- suggests that he was attempting to use the Outsiders for his own schemes. The odds that this was by accident are astronomical (see what I did there?).
The counter-argument would be that if the Outsiders can twist Starborn to their purposes, then Justin could be a dupe or infected.
It seems pretty clear that any mortal practitioner with enough juice and knowledge can summon Outsiders, not just starborn. In fact, if only Starborn could summon outsiders I feel certain that the White Council's reaction would be summary executions of Starborn, not the minimal watchful waiting they attempt with Harry. (Clearly the WC has no real knowledge of Elaine Mallory).
We also know that neither Harry nor any starborn can be mentally tainted, possessed or manipulated through supernatural means. Of course, more mundane manipulation would be possible.
We also know that Starborn wizards can more readily damage Outsiders, although Senior Council level Wizards can do ok.
All of this seems to be consistent with Starborn being good insurance against Outsiders. They cannot be suborned by them -- which is not true of most other servants or lieutenants like Aurora, Maeve, Lea, etc. -- and they can fight them more effectively, all things being equal.
Not only Justin, but Mab, Aurora and the Fomor have employed Starborn as enforcers, servants, lieutenants.
Putting all this together, I lean more towards Justin potentially using the Outsiders, but being independent of them, and wanting to be able to fight against them if need be.
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It seems pretty clear that any mortal practitioner with enough juice and knowledge can summon Outsiders, not just starborn. In fact, if only Starborn could summon outsiders I feel certain that the White Council's reaction would be summary executions of Starborn, not the minimal watchful waiting they attempt with Harry. (Clearly the WC has no real knowledge of Elaine Mallory).
Any mortal can summon an Outsider, it is just a matter of knowing how, we saw that in Blood Rites, and in Peace Talks as well.
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Ref: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50129.msg2289460.html#msg2289460
The above is a post I made a while back suggesting there is something important we don't know about Elaine Mallory.
Harry has said Elaine is almost as strong as him, and in some ways more skilled. It is not believable that Justin could have found two such apprentices by chance.
So, Justin was supposed to be an associate of Margaret LeFay. What did the two of them work on together? Did Justin help Margaret learn how to create a starborn?
There are still a lot of questions about what happened back then.
APG
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Ref: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50129.msg2289460.html#msg2289460
The above is a post I made a while back suggesting there is something important we don't know about Elaine Mallory.
Harry has said Elaine is almost as strong as him, and in some ways more skilled. It is not believable that Justin could have found two such apprentices by chance.
So, Justin was supposed to be an associate of Margaret LeFay. What did the two of them work on together? Did Justin help Margaret learn how to create a starborn?
There are still a lot of questions about what happened back then.
APG
Yup, however bit about this or that wizard being stronger or more skilled than he is, is something that Harry says about just about every wizard he knows.
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Elaine is certainly returning as the Summer Knight. Poor Fix is not really a balance to Harry, but Elaine would be.
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Elaine is certainly returning as the Summer Knight. Poor Fix is not really a balance to Harry, but Elaine would be.
Maybe if Aurora was still alive, but one thing says she won't. It's been a long standing theory that it was Elaine that unwittingly brought Nemesis to the Summer Court when she fled Justin's house and took refuge there. That is how Aurora got infected and went mad. Yes, that has to be proven, but I think it is a count against her becoming the Summer Knight. I also doubt that she wants to be that.
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Elaine is certainly returning as the Summer Knight. Poor Fix is not really a balance to Harry, but Elaine would be.
Jim told in woj and more subtle in the books that Sarissa and Fix are getting along quite well.
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Jim told in woj and more subtle in the books that Sarissa and Fix are getting along quite well.
And to further that, Harry gets along with both Sarissa and Fix, and they need to be a team in the BAT. Yes, Fix and Harry got into it a bit in Cold Days, but that is because Maeve succeeded in duping Lily into thinking Harry was a threat to her, and Fix was trying to protect his beloved Lily.
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No doubt that Fix and Sarrisa get along well and work better as a team than did Fix and Lilly. Further, I don't think that Fix will be taken out by Harry. The Summer v Winter thing seems over now that it Team Reality v. Team Outside.
All I'm suggesting is that the Fae Courts turn on balance. Mab's power and Titania's power is equivalent. While Mab has more troops, and so is "more powerful" in that sense, she can't deploy them freely given the need to guard the gates.
Harry, and a lesser extent Molly, knock the Winter/Summer balance out of line. Molly's extra power as a baby wizard is possibly negligible in the grand scheme of things and is something that Sarissa could develop parity with given time (which they have).
Fix is simply not on the same level as Harry in a personal power sense and really can never be. Harry's wizard battery, if not skill, allows him to trade with Senior Council members. Harry's status as the Warden and ability to draw on Soul Fire just is more sprinkles and chocolate sauce on his metaphysical Sundae.
Fix is just a changeling with a few years of experience more than Harry. He's not a match for Harry in any sense of the word. I doubt that Fix could take Harry 1 v 1, even on Midsummer at Noon.
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One thing that might change the equation is now the Summer/Winter Courts are almost a family business. Titania and Mab are sisters even if they hadn't spoken in a thousand years until Battle Ground, but that proved against the Enemy, they are on the same team, and now add to that Mab's daughter is the Summer Lady. I think the offense has to be HUGE, before Sarissa will go up against her mom, or that Mab will attack her favorite daughter. Actually I think the balance was out of wack before, seemingly in balance before Summer Knight, Mother/daughter Summer and Mother/daughter Winter, infections by the Enemy threw that all out of wack, they warred on each other.. Now they are no longer fighting one another, they are or can unite against the Enemy, thatis the balance that has been restored.
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Ref: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50129.msg2289460.html#msg2289460
The above is a post I made a while back suggesting there is something important we don't know about Elaine Mallory.
Harry has said Elaine is almost as strong as him, and in some ways more skilled. It is not believable that Justin could have found two such apprentices by chance.
So, Justin was supposed to be an associate of Margaret LeFay. What did the two of them work on together? Did Justin help Margaret learn how to create a starborn?
There are still a lot of questions about what happened back then.
APG
Any idea who Elaine's parents might be? If Justin knew that Harry was Margaret's son, then maybe he was also an associate of Elaine's parents as well.
Hmmm....inquiring minds...
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Any idea who Elaine's parents might be? If Justin knew that Harry was Margaret's son, then maybe he was also an associate of Elaine's parents as well.
Hmmm....inquiring minds...
Good question, wonder if he also knew who Harry's father was?
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Because Elaine's pendant, and Harry's are identical it makes me wonder if the parents were associates, friends, or belonged to some sort of organization within the wizarding world.
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Because Elaine's pendant, and Harry's are identical it makes me wonder if the parents were associates, friends, or belonged to some sort of organization within the wizarding world.
They share the same magical tradition.
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They share the same magical tradition.
That makes sense, there are other implications because Harry and Thomas also share the same pendent.. Harry and Thomas are half brothers, Harry and Elaine's sexual experimentation is acceptable, barely, because supposedly there is no blood relationship between them.. But even if they are first cousins, not closer, these days that is seen as a bit icky, as in incest, even though marriage between first cousins and even to aunts and uncles were accepted in the past.
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That makes sense, there are other implications because Harry and Thomas also share the same pendent.. Harry and Thomas are half brothers, Harry and Elaine's sexual experimentation is acceptable, barely, because supposedly there is no blood relationship between them.. But even if they are first cousins, not closer, these days that is seen as a bit icky, as in incest, even though marriage between first cousins and even to aunts and uncles were accepted in the past.
I don’t think they are related. The chances are minimal. I mean you meet someone from somewhere else and after you make love you discover you are closely related. That happens only in stories, not in real life ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullervo
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That happens only in stories, not in real life ;D
LOL
I think they might or might not be related. But it is possible that Elaine was "planned" in a similar way as Harry and Justin came to grab her in a similar way, too. Two adoptions, both magical. Coincidence? No way.
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I still think that there is a chance the Elaine is the one Nemfected, and that she actually had mind controlled Justin into doing what he did while she just appeared to be the victim.
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I don’t think they are related. The chances are minimal. I mean you meet someone from somewhere else and after you make love you discover you are closely related. That happens only in stories, not in real life ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullervo
Yeah, but this is fiction right? Anything goes... :o
I still think that there is a chance the Elaine is the one Nemfected, and that she actually had mind controlled Justin into doing what he did while she just appeared to be the victim.
That is an interesting twist, I've always thought that Elaine was Nemfected, but never thought of it in that order before. Actually it does make a degree of sense if the ultimate target was Harry. Justine was infected so Thomas could be controlled into doing what he did. If Elaine was infected,yes she could make Justin set her up to appear to be the victim.. However that was a miscalculation as well, Harry ran away.
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I did have a bit of a dark theory at one time about Harry and Elaine being related. But it didn't go down well...which was fair enough. I don't know that I would have been happy if I was right.
In saying that, there certainly was potential for that sort of thing. And despite only being foster siblings....they did grow up together for a few years. It is still a bit weird even if not technically incest.
The theory also had another dark element. Although perhaps I am conflating to separate theories in my head, it was a while ago. Anyway, the other part was that Harry was a victim of child sexual abuse from Justin. Perhaps Elaine was a victim as well. I am not saying this is the case though. But there were certain things that could line up. Particularly in the stuff about betrayal from a trusted and admired parental figure. Not to mention the physical, violent abuse. Let alone the psychological stuff. At the very least there were some possible allegories.
It seemed even more possible in that Jim said Twelve Months (the next book) was about Harry dealing with repressed trauma that we haven't really seen.
There are a lot of questions surrounding Justin. How he came to know about Elaine and Harry. That he was raising them to enforcers. Enforcers for what? Ghost Story, when Justin confronted Harry with a straight jacket, Harry asks, "why?" Justin answers;
That is weird, because he sounded just like Eb and Listens to Wind, in Peace Talks. Morgan and Eb both call Justin, paraphrasing "a bastard who had gotten a hold of Harry." But what if unknown to them, Justin was working under orders from the Council? However Justin miscalculated, infected, he was going to double cross the Council, but he hadn't anticipated that Harry would resist his efforts to enthrall him.
Again in Ghost Story, HWWB seems to know all about Harry, he calls him a "child of the stars.." He seems to also know all about Justin's training of him as well. He appears to be testing Harry's potential, as young as Harry is.. One wonders, if HWWB knew all of this, was Justin infected? And on one hand he was working under orders, but on the other hand because he was infected, Justin had another agenda.. But he miscalculated..
HWWB also miscalculated, he was close to succeeding in intimidating Harry and was proceeding to murder him... But he made a critical error, he murdered poor Stan in front of innocent 16 year old Harry's eyes. Harry had never witnessed anything like that, he knew it wasn't right, he knew Stan didn't deserve to die, it pissed him off.. That,I believe was the true turning point in Harry's life, that was the spirit of Malcolm coming through. In that moment he demonstrated "power over Outsiders."
Did HWWBh miscalculate? Or was that an act? If you look at the result of their interaction two things occurred:
1) Harry learns that it's acceptable to use magical violence to solve problems
2) Harry learns it is sometimes necessary to kill with magic
Look at how that shaped the rest of his life and decisions.
It could be though that HWWBh never expected Harry to be able to discorporate him. He intended those results but wasn't expecting to be banished.
I agree that Justin doesn't add up. His motives were never as straight forward as Harry thought...and the more we learn about him and what was going on, especially from the perspective of others like Morgan, the more it seems he wasn't just any old villain.