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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Crion on January 22, 2013, 04:30:44 AM
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It's been a long while since I've been here, so sorry for starting a new random thread.
So, here's the situation: a player of mine wishes to have a character that blends sword and sorcery together for a more fantasy-oriented game that I am using the DFRPG (and FATECore) for.
He is looking for something that's closer to energizing the blade with an element/power and placing attacks. I mentioned using magic to place a maneuver and tag/invoke it, but that's the flavor he's going for. He's more for the "Coat the blade with energy and go to town."
I know most people here are against the idea of a persisting damage effect (use the defensive power rules and apply them to damage; i.e. 4 shifts of power becomes Weapon:2 for 2 rounds), but I'm hitting a wall for other options.
I was thinking of using the rules from FATECore's magic system (specifically the Callers: having it as a one-point power with one element, and do a flat Skill roll for the shifts of power he gets for an action or two), or simply making it a stunt with flavor text, but I'm not certain if either one fits without being unbalanced.
So, anyone run into something similar? If so, how did you hack the rules to make it work without going over the top?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
--Crion
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Check out the Custom Powers Master List thread on this forum.
Find the entry for 'Natural Weaponry'.
Re-skin the power and appropriate upgrades to represent him imbuing power into/around a weapon rather than merely creating or having the weapon as part of his person.
Leave the 'spellcasting' part of what he's doing purely in the narrative.
That'd be my suggestion, anyway.
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Check out the Custom Powers Master List thread on this forum.
Find the entry for 'Natural Weaponry'.
Re-skin the power and appropriate upgrades to represent him imbuing power into/around a weapon rather than merely creating or having the weapon as part of his person.
Leave the 'spellcasting' part of what he's doing purely in the narrative.
That'd be my suggestion, anyway.
With that suggestion, are you saying he should be able to ramp up a sword he wields by that amount (i.e. taking the -1 ability to add 2 to the Weapon rating) or simply replace it (by taking the add-on power to have Weapon:4 instead)?
I can throw it out there, but it doesn't seem to really ring true in my head. I'll throw it at him tomorrow and see what he thinks.
Anyone else have a suggestion?
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I'd say replace it, but that's me.
edit: Even the weapon:2 version would still allow him substantially more versatility in the types of maneuvers he could perform, as well as potentially serve to satisfy the Catch for certain creatures (red or black court would be relatively easily done if he can imbue his weapons with a fiery aura)
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I'd say replace it, but that's me.
That's what I was thinking as well, but at this point, he'd be doing the exact same (or better, depending on the weapon) as if he did the maneuver.
I was also contemplating the use of Evocation as a "better of Weapon Damage or Shifts of Power" as a spell. While it is the hated "persistent damage" that people here speak against, a character with 5 Conviction could only pull off, at best and with only one mental stress, a Weapon:4 for one exchange (the next attack if the GM is friendly) or a Weapon:3 for two exchanges, putting him at the level of a broadsword damage wise.
That's pretty much all I have at the moment until I hear back from said player tomorrow (if my luck holds).
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Alternately, you could just use standard Evocation, with the attacks flavored as sword-strokes and the sword as a Focus Item. This necessitates some investment in Discipline and Conviction, and has limited uses per scene, but can make for some potentially extremely deadly attacks with a decent investment.
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Alternately, you could just use standard Evocation, with the attacks flavored as sword-strokes and the sword as a Focus Item. This necessitates some investment in Discipline and Conviction, and has limited uses per scene, but can make for some potentially extremely deadly attacks with a decent investment.
Glad to see you're still around, Deadmanwalking.
I threw the same note to the player in an e-mail when I explained the previous notes. I personally like that approach, even when not blended in my own, so I'm hoping the player goes with the narration side and sees that as a good idea.
Of course, other suggestions are always welcome, especially since I'm working on putting together a few FATE/DFRPG games for an anime convention in two months, and getting people hyped up is always useful!
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I believe there was a "Transcendant Swordsmanship" sponsored magic that seems to be what you need here. It's in the master thread.
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The 'persistent damage effect' that gets spoken against particularly vociferously on these boards is one where the spell lingers on the target, dealing damage. This can incredibly easily break the action economy, as well as result in a dramatic magnification of the practitioner's already typically superior offensive capabilities while circumventing their single glaring weakness (sustained activity is incredibly draining).
One where the spell enhances the weapon value of a mundane weapon, but where that enhanced weapon must then be used to attack normally, without the benefit of control bonuses from specializations and foci, on the other hand, is likely to result in an underpowered ability set (at least in my estimation).
Alternatively, you could simply have him take conventional spellcasting powers, entirely unmodified, have his attacks with 'imbued weapons' be resolved as normal spells, and then simply compel him on a regular basis when it would otherwise be to his advantage to attack from afar as other practitioners do. (ninja'd by Deadman)
A third option might be to represent his powers with Enchanted Items, which would give him the high weapon rating but comparatively unimpressive attack bonus that you would expect of a magically-imbued swordsman. The downside here being that his abilities would then be tied to particular weapons/objects.
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Alternately, you could just use standard Evocation, with the attacks flavored as sword-strokes and the sword as a Focus Item. This necessitates some investment in Discipline and Conviction, and has limited uses per scene, but can make for some potentially extremely deadly attacks with a decent investment.
That's pretty much how I've run characters who do this kind of thing, and it's worked very well so far. One additional suggestion: A stunt allowing the character to use Weapons instead of Discipline for those kinds of evocations.
Other things you can do is have the character take rote spells to self-maneuver the blade, or as blocks.
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TRANSCENDENT SWORDSMANSHIP [-4]
Description: Legends speak of heroes who fought dragons with nothing but sword and mail. These heroes fought creatures with nearly endless power and some of them actually won. Transcendent Swordsmanship channels the power of the heroes of old and uses it to do the impossible with swords.
Sponsor: Transcendent Swordsmanship is sponsored by the spirits, or perhaps the legends, of long-dead heroes.
Agenda: Transcendent Swordsmanship drives its user to destroy evil and to prove his own worth as a hero.
Evocation: Evocations cast with Transcendent Swordsmanship often resemble air or metal evocations, and they almost always emulate sword techniques.
Thaumaturgy: Transcendent Swordsmanship allows its user to cast rituals that tap into the legends of dead heroes, as well as rituals that summon spiritual warriors.
Evothaum: Transcendent Swordsmanship does not grant the ability to use Thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: A character with Transcendent Swordsmanship replaces his Conviction skill with his Might skill and his Discipline skill with his Weapons skill for the purposes of spellcasting.
Note: Foci made to boost Transcendent Swordsmanship spells are almost always swords. That being said, there's nothing stopping Transcendent Swordsmanship from becoming Transcendent Axemanship in the hands of a specific character.
From the Sponsored Power Master list.
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Also a consideration: While the sword will certainly be a focus item, you might take it a step further and make it an Item of Power as well, with some additional powers (Inhuman Strength, for one).
Actually, come to think of it I wrote some rules up for an extended-duration attack of the type you're describing. Basically, you would cast it like a duration block, and it would have a persistent weapon rating, but each round you'd still have to roll control to both target it and control the power, with the risk of backlash or fallout each round. And you'd still have to make that control roll if you're not actually using the attack for a given round.
I'll go see if I can round up that old thread.
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Found it! (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25872.msg1311911.html#msg1311911) Hope this helps.
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Found it! (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25872.msg1311911.html#msg1311911) Hope this helps.
That's pretty much one of the thoughts I had in mind (the other was the damage boost which would get broken). I'll send it to the player and see what he thinks.
TRANSCENDENT SWORDSMANSHIP [-4]
Description: Legends speak of heroes who fought dragons with nothing but sword and mail. These heroes fought creatures with nearly endless power and some of them actually won. Transcendent Swordsmanship channels the power of the heroes of old and uses it to do the impossible with swords.
Sponsor: Transcendent Swordsmanship is sponsored by the spirits, or perhaps the legends, of long-dead heroes.
Agenda: Transcendent Swordsmanship drives its user to destroy evil and to prove his own worth as a hero.
Evocation: Evocations cast with Transcendent Swordsmanship often resemble air or metal evocations, and they almost always emulate sword techniques.
Thaumaturgy: Transcendent Swordsmanship allows its user to cast rituals that tap into the legends of dead heroes, as well as rituals that summon spiritual warriors.
Evothaum: Transcendent Swordsmanship does not grant the ability to use Thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: A character with Transcendent Swordsmanship replaces his Conviction skill with his Might skill and his Discipline skill with his Weapons skill for the purposes of spellcasting.
Note: Foci made to boost Transcendent Swordsmanship spells are almost always swords. That being said, there's nothing stopping Transcendent Swordsmanship from becoming Transcendent Axemanship in the hands of a specific character.
From the Sponsored Power Master list.
This one is actually pretty cool looking. I may have to keep it in mind for a later character/NPC.
My only question: how would you handle the summoning of the Spirits? I know you normally have to beat whatever spirit you want to control into submission somehow, so would you do the same here?
So far, great ideas here. Anyone else have anything to add?
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Alternate Magical Paradigm might be appropriate. It's on the list (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356063/Custom%20Powers%20Master%20List%20%28V3%29.odt).
And summoning heroic spirits with Transcendent Swordsmanship would use normal summoning rules.
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That's pretty much one of the thoughts I had in mind (the other was the damage boost which would get broken). I'll send it to the player and see what he thinks.
This one is actually pretty cool looking. I may have to keep it in mind for a later character/NPC.
My only question: how would you handle the summoning of the Spirits? I know you normally have to beat whatever spirit you want to control into submission somehow, so would you do the same here?
It might be argued that because these spirits are already kind of on your side, you don't have to go through the rigmarole of beating them down and binding them, so much as summoning them and pointing them in the right direction.
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Summoning a spirit that wants to help you should be as hard as summoning one that doesn't and beating it down.
You pay for the effect you get, not for the way you narrate it.
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Summoning a spirit that wants to help you should be as hard as summoning one that doesn't and beating it down.
You pay for the effect you get, not for the way you narrate it.
I've already posted about Summoning and how it seems a bit off in another thread, so we can sidestep that one.
Anyone else have a new suggestion?
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Alternate Magical Paradigm might be appropriate. It's on the list (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356063/Custom%20Powers%20Master%20List%20%28V3%29.odt).
And summoning heroic spirits with Transcendent Swordsmanship would use normal summoning rules.
By the by, do you have links for the other powers like Sponsored Magic and whatnot? Just curious. . .
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Summoning a spirit that wants to help you should be as hard as summoning one that doesn't and beating it down.
You pay for the effect you get, not for the way you narrate it.
By the same logic, should you need to win a social conflict to ask someone on your side who owes you a favor to help you out at the same difficulty it would be to convince someone who actively doesn't like you to help you?
Who you're calling for aid should be reflected in how much it costs--something that's already inclined to help you shouldn't need a 40-shift ritual to convince it to help you.
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By the same logic, should you need to win a social conflict to ask someone on your side who owes you a favor to help you out at the same difficulty it would be to convince someone who actively doesn't like you to help you?
Who you're calling for aid should be reflected in how much it costs--something that's already inclined to help you shouldn't need a 40-shift ritual to convince it to help you.
I agree. I also tend to think that even someone inclined to help is likely to charge a price for their aid in anything dangerous unless they're a personal friend (and possibly even then). Perhaps your aid in one of their battles at a later date...or some other dangerous or troublesome favor.
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I'd do it as a swordfight with the spirit you're summoning, probably represented as Weapons vs. Conviction.
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By the by, do you have links for the other powers like Sponsored Magic and whatnot? Just curious. . .
Sponsored Magic list (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356063/Sponsored%20Magic%20Master%20List.odt)
Item Of Power list (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356063/Item%20of%20power%20list.docx)
Stunt list (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356063/Homebrew%20Stunt%20List%20%28Revised%29.odt)
By the same logic, should you need to win a social conflict to ask someone on your side who owes you a favor to help you out at the same difficulty it would be to convince someone who actively doesn't like you to help you?
Who you're calling for aid should be reflected in how much it costs--something that's already inclined to help you shouldn't need a 40-shift ritual to convince it to help you.
If the spirit you're calling is a pre-existing character, that's true.
But generally it isn't. When a caster PC decides to summon a new NPC, whether her player decides to narrate the summoning as calling a friend or enslaving a monster should not matter to the spell's complexity.
If you ignore that, then nobody ever summons anything that isn't friendly (unless compelled). Because why would they pay extra shifts?
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Sponsored Magic list (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356063/Sponsored%20Magic%20Master%20List.odt)
Item Of Power list (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356063/Item%20of%20power%20list.docx)
Stunt list (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356063/Homebrew%20Stunt%20List%20%28Revised%29.odt)
If the spirit you're calling is a pre-existing character, that's true.
But generally it isn't. When a caster PC decides to summon a new NPC, whether her player decides to narrate the summoning as calling a friend or enslaving a monster should not matter to the spell's complexity.
If you ignore that, then nobody ever summons anything that isn't friendly (unless compelled). Because why would they pay extra shifts?
Honestly, if you're summoning something to help you out in a fight, it's just plain smarter to pick something friendly--just ask Victor Sells.
But even when something's friendly, deals have to be made--you could easily have Harry's offering to the loa spirit as part of the complexity, or Harry's giving his name to Chauncey.
Summoning something that actively doesn't want to help you and forcing it to should be more difficult than summoning something that has reason to help you. As for why? Maybe the unfriendly thing is more powerful. Maybe the unfriendly thing is the only thing that would help. Could be any number of reasons.
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If the spirit you're calling is a pre-existing character, that's true.
Agreed.
But generally it isn't. When a caster PC decides to summon a new NPC, whether her player decides to narrate the summoning as calling a friend or enslaving a monster should not matter to the spell's complexity.
If you ignore that, then nobody ever summons anything that isn't friendly (unless compelled). Because why would they pay extra shifts?
Ah, see, here's the difference: I would never let a player actually define, in detail, what they're summoning. That's the GM's job. It's always a pre-existing character...and it's up the GM what True Names they have access to and what kind of favors those beings are willing to do at what prices. The player could search out new ones...but that's a whole different kettle of fish. The player might be able to make Declarations about a critter or two, but no more than they'd get to make about a mercenary hired with Resources, certainly nothing that defined the creature completely.
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If unfriendly things is more powerful, then that's a fine reason for it to be harder to summon.
It's also fine if summoning friendly things is impossible.
The key thing is that summoning a demon instead of a loa shouldn't be stupid. You shouldn't have to be compelled into it.
And if you let people just say "I'm summoning something friendly" and make things easier for themselves, then summoning a demon instead of a loa is stupid.
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If unfriendly things is more powerful, then that's a fine reason for it to be harder to summon.
I dunno about more powerful...but most friendly things aren't combat oriented. 'Friendly' and 'combative' not going together as often as some other personality traits...
It's also fine if summoning friendly things is impossible.
By no means...but the thing you want today may only be available through an unfriendly critter...at least of the critters you know the names of.
The key thing is that summoning a demon instead of a loa shouldn't be stupid. You shouldn't have to be compelled into it.
And if you let people just say "I'm summoning something friendly" and make things easier for themselves, then summoning a demon instead of a loa is stupid.
This I agree with.
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I dunno about more powerful...but most friendly things aren't combat oriented. 'Friendly' and 'combative' not going together as often as some other personality traits...
Says who?
This I agree with.
Okay.
Therefore, going back to the original point, summoning with Transcendent Swordsmanship should not be easier because of the perceived friendliness of the heroic spirits. The cost of Transcendent Swordsmanship does not include any such bonus.
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The key thing is that summoning a demon instead of a loa shouldn't be stupid. You shouldn't have to be compelled into it.
You summon different entities for different things. Most likely, the player says, "I want to summon something for this purpose," and rolls Lore to figure out what it is. Maybe a high Lore roll gives him something he can bargain with and thus get his results at a lower complexity, while a low lore roll means he has to go for something that's going to be a pain in the ass to deal with.
And if you let people just say "I'm summoning something friendly" and make things easier for themselves, then summoning a demon instead of a loa is stupid.
If the player is naming specifically what he wants to summon, the GM still has the final say, and could easily say, "Okay, knowing the name of a Loa is an 8-shift Lore difficulty, but you have this book of demons over there and it's a Lore difficulty of 4 to summon something from there." Or maybe the player spends a fate point to declare it knows of something friendly that can help.
It's not like the Player has the final say in all this, remember.I dunno about more powerful...but most friendly things aren't combat oriented. 'Friendly' and 'combative' not going together as often as some other personality traits...
I meant friendly to the summoner, not friendly in general.
At the same time, though, friendly can sure as hell be combat oriented. Michael Carpenter, Sanya and Shiro are plenty friendly.
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I meant friendly to the summoner, not friendly in general.
Right...but if they aren't friendly in general, the only reason they'd be likely to be friendly with the Summoner is some prior relationship of some sort, which should likely be roleplayed out.
At the same time, though, friendly can sure as hell be combat oriented. Michael Carpenter, Sanya and Shiro are plenty friendly.
Sure...but Father Forthill is more typical of people on that side of things. I didn't say they didn't exist, just that they were less common.
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Finding the True Name of the thing you want to summon is explicitly described as part of the complexity-building process for Summoning in YS, unless I badly misread.
If you want to limit what players can summon with an additional subsystem on top of the standard ritual subsystem, that's fine.
But please don't assume everyone is using the same houserules as you.
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Finding the True Name of the thing you want to summon is explicitly described as part of the complexity-building process for Summoning in YS, unless I badly misread.
It is...but at no point is it said that players can do that with any and all possible True Names. GM oversight on such things is assumed, every bit as much as not letting players have vials of nerve gas or rocket launchers casually just because they made a good Resources roll. Justifications and consequences are involved. It being magic doesn't change that.
If you want to limit what players can summon with an additional subsystem on top of the standard ritual subsystem, that's fine.
But please don't assume everyone is using the same houserules as you.
I'm not saying anything about House Rules...just GM oversight, which should be a built-in game assumption.
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Okay, then you shouldn't assume every GM oversees the way the one in your group does.
I don't much care if what you're talking about counts as a houserule, but it's definitely not something that every group should be assumed to be doing.
It's not mandated in the book, and it doesn't really fit with (my image of) the narrative and mechanical set-up of the default game. So you can't just take it for granted.
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I am thinking what I would do is run it as an alternate form of Evocation that required the use of a separate Weapons targeting roll in exchange for a +1 discount, and then allow a "blade magic" high concept to justify Strength/Speed/Toughness/Recovery powers.
Another option would be a Blade Magic stunt on top of standard Evocation that allowed you to use Weapons for targeting and make Zone evocation attacks with a sword that excluded you and your allies when doing so.
Custom evocation that allowed you to add 1/2 Power to the Weapons rating of a sword (for an exchange), cast as a supplemental action to the attack?