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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on August 16, 2021, 06:17:00 PM
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Nemesis? I mean we know what happened to the mantle, it entered Molly.. Did Nemesis also enter Molly even though it isn't apparent right now? Could this be the real reason why Mab ordered Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her? Because of Mab dies, Nemesis would come forward and take full advantage.
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Good question,but wouldn't Mab put her on ice like she did Lea if that were the case and she knew?
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If this had happened, reality already would not be a thing.
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Or can someone be infected but not possessed? Maeve, infected.. Justine possessed..
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Or can someone be infected but not possessed? Maeve, infected.. Justine possessed..
I think it works very much like a denarian in that respect. It can influence, talk to you and negotiate or it can just take over.
But what differs is that it does not even have to tell you it is there and it can just influence you. Aurora did not know but was not taken over.
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When Maeve died the Nemesis connection was broken. He isn't a Mantle or a body jumper like Corpsetaker and has his own corporeal existence.
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When Maeve died the Nemesis connection was broken. He isn't a Mantle or a body jumper like Corpsetaker and has his own corporeal existence.
But was she actually possessed? Infected and insane but possessed? I still think that is unclear and that is why Mab wanted Molly killed if something happened to her. That is the only thing that makes sense.. Because while Molly might not run the Winter Court as Mab would, she has demonstrated that she'd do her part to protect it and the rest of the world and would with Harry's help.
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Mab told you about love.
“Everyone,” she said, “thinks that hate and love are somehow opposite forces. They are not. They are the same force, facing opposite directions.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 394). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Given control over Harry what do you think Molly would do? And how do you think Harry would respond? Jim has always teased that Molly could go off the rails. I think there is very little doubt left that it is his plan to have her do precisely that.
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Mab told you about love. Given control over Harry what do you think Molly would do? And how do you think Harry would respond? Jim has always teased that Molly could go off the rails. I think there is very little doubt left that it is his plan to have her do precisely that.
But basically she has control over Harry now as his Lady.. No, I think there is more to it than that, also Mab has to know that is an order that Harry wouldn't obey unless she really got down to basics as to why he should.
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No she doesn't, not as long as Mab lives. Mab can stop her in her tracks by the simple expedient of telling her no. And she told him why. It really couldn't be more explicit.
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No she doesn't, not as long as Mab lives. Mab can stop her in her tracks by the simple expedient of telling her no. And she told him why. It really couldn't be more explicit.
Was it? I think she was rather vague beyond it wouldn't be good, but that can come down to a point of view. I also think that Mab should know Harry well enough by now that if he thought Molly was going to real harm he wouldn't exactly obey her either, he'd do it his way.
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Why, in the heat of a fight would Mab take the time to tell him that?
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Why, in the heat of a fight would Mab take the time to tell him that?
Who knows, it's Mab after all... Another question would be why wasn't Harry more upset about
her suggestion?
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“Should I fall, I have one last command you would be wise to fulfill.” I tilted my head. “Kill Molly Carpenter,” she said calmly. “As quickly as possible.” “Funny,” I said. Mab stared at me. Of course. She hadn’t been joking. On a normal day, I would have been more upset. Today already hurt so much that I hardly noticed. Mab wanted me to kill someone. She usually did. It was sort of my job description. I frowned dully at her. “Why?”
“As Winter Lady, she shows promise,” Mab said. “But she is not ready to become Mab. The consequences would be . . . unsettling. For both of you. Perhaps for all of Winter.” I tried to think of the kind of situation that would unsettle Mab. My mind shied away from it.
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (pp. 219-220). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I realize that you disagree with me, but this passage speaks Jim's purpose to me. It answers your question. So put yourself in Harry's shoes and answer the question that Harry asks. What would unsettle Mab? Harry knows, he just doesn't want to consider it.
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Nemesis? I mean we know what happened to the mantle, it entered Molly.. Did Nemesis also enter Molly even though it isn't apparent right now? Could this be the real reason why Mab ordered Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her? Because of Mab dies, Nemesis would come forward and take full advantage.
I think the Mantle is unalterable. Meaning that Nemesis couldn't latch on to it. So It's connection was lost when Maeve died.
I think that Mab knows that there is too much humanity left in Molly. She needs Molly to give herself to the Mantle, completely. A Winter Lady that's conflicted is tolerable, a Winter Queen is not. The Queen must be laser focused on the mission at hand. The mission to protect the Out Gates at any cost.
Remember that Molly loves Harry. Mab does not. She see's Harry as a weapon, and my guess is a disposable weapon that isn't supposed to survive past the Stars and Stones. Molly might not have what it takes to sacrifice Harry the same way Mab will do it without hesitation.
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I think the Mantle is unalterable. Meaning that Nemesis couldn't latch on to it. So It's connection was lost when Maeve died.
I think that Mab knows that there is too much humanity left in Molly. She needs Molly to give herself to the Mantle, completely. A Winter Lady that's conflicted is tolerable, a Winter Queen is not. The Queen must be laser focused on the mission at hand. The mission to protect the Out Gates at any cost.
Remember that Molly loves Harry. Mab does not. She see's Harry as a weapon, and my guess is a disposable weapon that isn't supposed to survive past the Stars and Stones. Molly might not have what it takes to sacrifice Harry the same way Mab will do it without hesitation.
Mantles are alterable, likely not by Nemesis, but snipping off pieces of power and trading them along and melding them with other mantles happens (e.g. doing that is probably the main purpose of the Stone Table in Tir Na Nog). Taking on the santa mantle let Odin go from his original perception to the one we think of today, but it's a slow process.
I agree that Mab thinks Molly has too much soul to be a proper Winter Queen. She's too emotional to take up Mab's mantle in her eyes.
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I think that Mab knows that there is too much humanity left in Molly. She needs Molly to give herself to the Mantle, completely. A Winter Lady that's conflicted is tolerable, a Winter Queen is not. The Queen must be laser focused on the mission at hand. The mission to protect the Out Gates at any cost.
Ultimately Mab has to apply that standard to herself, and she failed but got lucky. What's left of the human mother in her ignored the fact that even before she was infected, Maeve sucked as the Winter Lady. The human mother left in her allowed her to favor Sarissa over Maeve which created resentment. The human mother left in her failed to see that Maeve was infected until it was too late. She got lucky, in the end Maeve/Nemesis failed to pull it off.
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Mantles are alterable, likely not by Nemesis, but snipping off pieces of power and trading them along and melding them with other mantles happens (e.g. doing that is probably the main purpose of the Stone Table in Tir Na Nog). Taking on the santa mantle let Odin go from his original perception to the one we think of today, but it's a slow process.
I agree that Mab thinks Molly has too much soul to be a proper Winter Queen. She's too emotional to take up Mab's mantle in her eyes.
Mab might think so but that does not make I true. I think https://www.jim-butcher.com/the-good-people shows other roads are possible.
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Mab might think so but that does not make I true. I think https://www.jim-butcher.com/the-good-people shows other roads are possible.
Yup, thanks for reminding us of the other Christmas story, too bad it wasn't included with Christmas Eve at the end of Battle Ground. But here Molly proves that she can be as tough and cold as Mab would wish, but at the same time do some good and have a little fun. But then Molly is young and time has yet to make her bitter, it could be she is what Mab should be not what she is. Winter is cold and cruel, true, but also it makes rebirth possible.
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I wonder what happens if both lady and queen dies. It seems odd that it would be worse for someone random to become queen that Molly.
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I wonder what happens if both lady and queen dies. It seems odd that it would be worse for someone random to become queen that Molly.
Good question because if Mab had died and Harry obeyed her orders to kill Molly that is exactly the situation Winter would find itself in. I suppose Lea could take over or Mother Winter come out of retirement, but that doesn't feel right.
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Good question because if Mab had died and Harry obeyed her orders to kill Molly that is exactly the situation Winter would find itself in. I suppose Lea could take over or Mother Winter come out of retirement, but that doesn't feel right.
Whatever Jim wants but Mab knows.
The Ladies mantle is going to look for someone and the queen’s mantle will do the same or return to Mother Winter to be handled to someone.
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Whatever Jim wants but Mab knows.
The Ladies mantle is going to look for someone and the queen’s mantle will do the same or return to Mother Winter to be handled to someone.
Yeah, but there is an old saying, "jumping from the frying pan into the fire..."
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Yeah, but there is an old saying, "jumping from the frying pan into the fire..."
And Harry missed the opportunity to ask that question. He probably would not get a clear answer but he was entirely justified to ask at that moment.
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And Harry missed the opportunity to ask that question. He probably would not get a clear answer but he was entirely justified to ask at that moment.
Yup, but he also had more pressing problems at the moment.
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But was she actually possessed? Infected and insane but possessed? I still think that is unclear and that is why Mab wanted Molly killed if something happened to her. That is the only thing that makes sense.. Because while Molly might not run the Winter Court as Mab would, she has demonstrated that she'd do her part to protect it and the rest of the world and would with Harry's help.
What makes me wonder about Mab's insistence that Harry off Molly if Mab bites it in the fight with Ethniu is... why would Molly be worse than whoever comes next? The reasoning she gives is basically "Molly's doing a good job as Lady, but she's not ready to be Queen." Okay, so... some rando will get the Mantle and do a better job, then? And there'll be a whole new Lady to contend with, too?
I know Mab probably planned for such a contingency and made sure a good Vessel for Molly's current mantle would be on standby, but you simply CANNOT plan that well in the middle of a pitched battle. Why is Mab so confident Molly would be worse than whoever's next?
The answer is probably that Mab thinks Molly cares too much about mortals (shown in Molly's short story after Christmas Eve), but I find it really odd nonetheless.
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Consider, if the consort kills the monarch it might qualify as a legit coupe. So Mabs really telling Harry to take over her job.
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Consider, if the consort kills the monarch it might qualify as a legit coupe. So Mabs really telling Harry to take over her job.
I don't think that's possible. For one, he can't accept either of the Mantles in question, and those Mantles are critical. Do you mean Mab was telling Harry to become a new Winter monarch? Or that he would advise the next monarch? Because Harry flat out does not know enough to do either of those things. He'd just learned that the Outer Gates actually existed within a year or two of PT/BG.
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Consider, if the consort kills the monarch it might qualify as a legit coupe. So Mabs really telling Harry to take over her job.
Magical sex change included.
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I don't think that's possible. For one, he can't accept either of the Mantles in question, and those Mantles are critical. Do you mean Mab was telling Harry to become a new Winter monarch? Or that he would advise the next monarch? Because Harry flat out does not know enough to do either of those things. He'd just learned that the Outer Gates actually existed within a year or two of PT/BG.
this was actually addressed specifically in Woj on if harry could take the lady/queen mantles since he has the knights. The answer is pretty much Harry's known to break rules.
Knowledge isn't key, disposition is. Harry absolutely has the disposition for it, a tiny grain of sand against a raging sea. Plus, the whole starborn thing is probably an edge Mabs well aware of.
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Mab telling Harry to kill Molly in the event of her death might actually be Mab trying to be nice to Harry, too. He just lost Murphy, and Mab knows that Harry/Molly are very concerned with the state of their souls. Ending Molly's life before she becomes another Mab seems like a reasonable "kindness" to expect from Mab in that situation.
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Mab telling Harry to kill Molly in the event of her death might actually be Mab trying to be nice to Harry, too. He just lost Murphy, and Mab knows that Harry/Molly are very concerned with the state of their souls. Ending Molly's life before she becomes another Mab seems like a reasonable "kindness" to expect from Mab in that situation.
That seems like a stretch to me. I doubt that Mab would care about Harry's feelings, if she wanted Molly killed it if something happened to her, it wasn't to save her soul.
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That seems like a stretch to me. I doubt that Mab would care about Harry's feelings, if she wanted Molly killed it if something happened to her, it wasn't to save her soul.
Maybe, but Mab does get some humanizing moments, especially lately. Mother Winter calls her too sentimental.
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Maybe, but Mab does get some humanizing moments, especially lately. Mother Winter calls her too sentimental.
Yes, but not that human...
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Maybe, but Mab does get some humanizing moments, especially lately. Mother Winter calls her too sentimental.
Compared to mother winter she indeed was.
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Compared to mother winter she indeed was.
Yeah, but I wouldn't be shocked if Mother Winter called Mother Summer sentimental..
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Mother Summer is sentimental. That doesn't mean she can't or won't do what's necessary. For example, disciplining a child is a necessary act, but a bad parent can get sadistic joy from it but a good parent feels bad about doing it. Either way the job is still done.
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Mother Summer is sentimental. That doesn't mean she can't or won't do what's necessary. For example, disciplining a child is a necessary act, but a bad parent can get sadistic joy from it but a good parent feels bad about doing it. Either way the job is still done.
And Mab as well, when it became apparent that her own child needed to die, she ordered it.. She also will do what is necessary, if she thinks Molly has to die, it won't be to save her or Harry's soul out of sentimentality.