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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: b4utoo on July 14, 2021, 04:13:26 AM
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Who showed up at Chichen Itza and did the whole grey Council show up? Could be very significant going forward
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It was the whole Grey Council at that time. It could be that others have joined or left/died/whatever since.
According to Jim, it was thirteen members including Harry and at the time of Changes we had seen six of them (not including Harry, Ebenezar or Vadderung).
We obviously know Ebenezar, Vadderung, and Harry. But that leaves six that we know.
2010 Bitten by Books Q&A:
#136 “I am also highly intrigued by the Gray Council showing up as 12 in number.”
Thirteen, actually: Harry was already there.
“So we found out who 2 of them were, i’d like to know how many of the rest we already know and how many of them haven’t been formally introduced to us yet.”
Hang on, counting… You already know six of the folks who showed up at Chichen Itza, excluding McCoy and Vadderung. :)
It's been discussed several times who the remaining members are but here are my current guesses.
KNOWN:
1. Harry
2. Ebenezar McCoy
3. Donar Vadderung
GUESSES:
4. Listens-to-Wind
5. Rashid (the Gatekeeper)
6. Anastasia Luccio
7. Martha Liberty
8. The Erlking (Lord Herne)
9. Eldest Gruff
10. Unknown
11. Unknown
12. Unknown
13. Unknown
The last four we hadn't met as of Changes. We may have now, we may not have. I included the Fae because Ebenezar describes the Grey Council as being made up of "Some wizards. Some key allies". I couldn't figure who else key allies might mean but Eldest Gruff and the Erlking seemed as good bets as any.
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Any takers as Elaine being one dark horse
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Any takers as Elaine being one dark horse
Doubtful. Nobody but Harry knows Elaine is anything more then a minor practitioner, and even if they did, Elaine is the Anti-Harry- she's very busy keeping her head down and her nose clean and looking out for number one.
I can't see her joining a group like the Grey Council.
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We know that's her.. But ...what if she hasn't told Harry everything.. What if she's become a player...
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Doubtful. Nobody but Harry knows Elaine is anything more then a minor practitioner, and even if they did, Elaine is the Anti-Harry- she's very busy keeping her head down and her nose clean and looking out for number one.
I can't see her joining a group like the Grey Council.
She's pretending to be a minor practitioner but she's still taken a fairly prominent role as head of the Paranet.
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It was the whole Grey Council at that time. It could be that others have joined or left/died/whatever since.
According to Jim, it was thirteen members including Harry and at the time of Changes we had seen six of them (not including Harry, Ebenezar or Vadderung).
We obviously know Ebenezar, Vadderung, and Harry. But that leaves six that we know.
It's been discussed several times who the remaining members are but here are my current guesses.
KNOWN:
1. Harry
2. Ebenezar McCoy
3. Donar Vadderung
GUESSES:
4. Listens-to-Wind
5. Rashid (the Gatekeeper)
6. Anastasia Luccio
7. Martha Liberty
8. The Erlking (Lord Herne)
9. Eldest Gruff
10. Unknown
11. Unknown
12. Unknown
13. Unknown
The last four we hadn't met as of Changes. We may have now, we may not have. I included the Fae because Ebenezar describes the Grey Council as being made up of "Some wizards. Some key allies". I couldn't figure who else key allies might mean but Eldest Gruff and the Erlking seemed as good bets as any.
I don't think Gatekeeper would be there. He doesn't strike me as a combat wizard, and his role at the Outer Gates is too important. I think he's in the Grey Council, I just don't think he'd be there on the ground taking part in the battle.
Leah was there, would she be considered a member? I believe she and Vadderung "sealed" a deal didn't they?
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If you have the Fae included, why not Lea (protecting the Godson, a good bet), or maybe even Mab. Flowing robes could hide the women, though Mab and Lea are taller than Eb anyway, but Herne, Rashid, and Vadderung should stand out - they were in a group, and are all 7 feet or better. And River would be obvious - and he does not project power, he is more a melee tank. rule him out. I would not doubt the Gatekeeper can light them up. I am not always 100% sure he's human. Can a scion join up?
I don't know about the Gruff. That draws Summer in. Herne is Wyldfae. He does not commit Mab. Lea has an obligation to Harry's mother. That might mean she does not commit Winter.
Carlos seems to have figured out what is going on... could he be in?
I think the Archive is likely standing neutral. But..... she has the firepower.
Kincaid is a merc, but he's shown no magic. No one was up there with a battle rifle.
Elaine is skilled, and a better touch than Harry - but does she have that kind of firepower, even if she wanted to? These seem heavy hitters, with Harry as low end. I would not be surprised if the WC knows Elaine survived. they'd likely check the site of the fire, and lacking remains... And the higher ups may have an idea of her power level.
I do not see it so unlikely that Eb might have looked in on Harry when he was with Justin. He's not just a wizard, he's his grandfather. He'd likely have taken the measure of Elaine as well. I also think he has to know who Thomas is. He may not know Harry and Thomas know all that, but he should at least suspect they know their real relationship. So the Seniors may know about Elaine, they just haven't leaked out anything if she keeps her head down. Sending Carlos to check her out tells her they know she's a wizard, and maybe they test Carlos' perceptions if he can see how strong she is?
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I don't think Gatekeeper would be there. He doesn't strike me as a combat wizard, and his role at the Outer Gates is too important. I think he's in the Grey Council, I just don't think he'd be there on the ground taking part in the battle.
Leah was there, would she be considered a member? I believe she and Vadderung "sealed" a deal didn't they?
He is a combat wizard though...he fights at the Outer Gates and he fought during the vampire war against the vampires. Where do you get the idea that he isn't? Jim considers him the most dangerous wizard on the Council.
It's possible he isn't on the Grey Council. But Jim said we knew six of them as of Changes. I imagine Ebenezar would pick his close allies, and Rashid is a self-proclaimed ally of Eb. So he seemed a good bet to me. Considering the Grey Council is set up not merely to fight the Black Council, as Harry believed initially, but Nemesis - he seems an excellent choice for the line up.
Well, I used to think Lea might be a member. But when Jim was asked about membership he specifically said thirteen members were at Chichen Itza including Harry (twelve are summoned by Lea) but Harry is the thirteenth member. Jim specifically says we know Harry, Vadderung and Eb, and we had met six others as of Changes. Lea just can't fit mathematically. She might have become a member later of course. But Jim hinted it was significant there was thirteen members. I would say because Harry said thirteen are the most you can have when teaming up on a spell.
If you have the Fae included, why not Lea (protecting the Godson, a good bet), or maybe even Mab. Flowing robes could hide the women, though Mab and Lea are taller than Eb anyway, but Herne, Rashid, and Vadderung should stand out - they were in a group, and are all 7 feet or better. And River would be obvious - and he does not project power, he is more a melee tank. rule him out. I would not doubt the Gatekeeper can light them up. I am not always 100% sure he's human. Can a scion join up?
I don't know about the Gruff. That draws Summer in. Herne is Wyldfae. He does not commit Mab. Lea has an obligation to Harry's mother. That might mean she does not commit Winter.
Carlos seems to have figured out what is going on... could he be in?
I think the Archive is likely standing neutral. But..... she has the firepower.
Kincaid is a merc, but he's shown no magic. No one was up there with a battle rifle.
Elaine is skilled, and a better touch than Harry - but does she have that kind of firepower, even if she wanted to? These seem heavy hitters, with Harry as low end. I would not be surprised if the WC knows Elaine survived. they'd likely check the site of the fire, and lacking remains... And the higher ups may have an idea of her power level.
I do not see it so unlikely that Eb might have looked in on Harry when he was with Justin. He's not just a wizard, he's his grandfather. He'd likely have taken the measure of Elaine as well. I also think he has to know who Thomas is. He may not know Harry and Thomas know all that, but he should at least suspect they know their real relationship. So the Seniors may know about Elaine, they just haven't leaked out anything if she keeps her head down. Sending Carlos to check her out tells her they know she's a wizard, and maybe they test Carlos' perceptions if he can see how strong she is?
See my reasons above for not including Lea. Mab and Lea can adjust their heights as it happens. I don't see Mab being on the team - she could have wasted most of the Red Court and the Red King and his Lords of the Outer Night by herself. I believe Jim once said it would take the entire Red Court to beat her.
Well Vadderung was there in Changes so we know he is one. Distance can make it hard to judge heights, particularly in the dark. Harry didn't seem to notice anyone's height but Ebenezar (because Eb is so short). River did seem like a poor choice as he would literally have had to pretend to be a human. He can shapeshift but why bother? Everytime we have seen him fight he stands out.
I picked Eldest Gruff as he seems to be a calming influence, and he wields a wizard's staff. Like all the members of the Grey Council.
The Archive couldn't be there, at least at that stage. And she would have still been quite short. She too would have stood out considering her power. But the Archive is meant to be neutral. She only fights when her back is against the wall.
Carlos is possible. But he seems to young and too dramatic. Why would Eb pick him over so many senior wardens and other wizards?
Kincaid isn't one. I'll put money on that.
Elaine would be a hell of a dark horse...I don't see it though for similar reasons to Carlos. Why would Eb pick her? She has also remained firm that she doesn't want to be involved in that sort of thing. Even if Eb knew she was alive and capable, and wanted her on the team for whatever reason, why pick her? Why would she say yes?
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Contrarian possibility - Arthur Langtry
Not my pick, but I've seen original forum members name him as a member. Sometimes defended as a Machiavellian genius who has secretly pushed Harry in the direction he needs to go.
Real contrarian possibility - Nicodemus Archleone
He told Harry he wanted the Red Court destroyed. More important, he probably wants to stymie the goals of the Outsiders. Wouldn't it be a kick in Harry's guts if one of the people who came out to help him was Nic? For this to be true, Nicodemus was hiding his participation when he told Murphy in Skin Game that he heard about what she did at Chicken Pizza when he actually saw what she did. Nic would also have been too preoccupied in combat to have seen why Harry was there. I.E. He didn't see Harry's daughter.
Another, more realistic possibility - Klaus the Toymaker
He's Senior Council level. Jim has talked about him a couple of times at Q & A's. One time I heard Jim mention a short story possibility that would have featured Klaus.
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He is a combat wizard though...he fights at the Outer Gates and he fought during the vampire war against the vampires. Where do you get the idea that he isn't? Jim considers him the most dangerous wizard on the Council.
I could be wrong because I haven't touched up on the earlier books in a while but I'm pretty sure it's Winter who fights at the Gates, and Rashid is there to scan the injured who come through, for Nemesis is my guess. When he faced off against the vampires it was because they were ambushed, not because he was actively looking for combat from what I remember. Being dangerous doesn't just revolve around what you can do under a combat situation. Mike Tyson might be way more dangerous in a physical confrontation than a scientist, but a scientist who can create bioweapons is way more dangerous.
I'm not saying Rashid isn't capable of combat magic. He's got centuries of experience, and can probably do all kinds of crazy stuff. That said there is a difference between combat magic, and other forms of magic. The reason being that in a combat situation there is a measure of athleticism involved. You have to be quick, agile, and have endurance. I'm sure Rashid is quite capable, but he doesn't strike me as the type who'd fare well in a prolonged conflict where his physical body would be placed under quite a lot of stress. His magic might be able to hold up, but his body might not.
I don't remember for sure but I'm almost sure that at some point Jim said that Rashid uses as little magic as possible. He didn't go into detail, or explain why though.
Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful. Smiley - Jim.... In my opinion this has less to do with combat magic, or super powerful magic but probably has more to do with his knowledge, and possibly a gift for messing with time. I mean imagine someone who is able to alter time, alter the outcome of a fight... That is serious power right there.
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Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful. Smiley - Jim.... In my opinion this has less to do with combat magic, or super powerful magic but probably has more to do with his knowledge, and possibly a gift for messing with time. I mean imagine someone who is able to alter time, alter the outcome of a fight... That is serious power right there.
Yes, he is, and let's not forget that what he really is about that even his eye has a disguise.. It is also no accident that he appears to wear Winter's colors.
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Elaine is skilled, and a better touch than Harry - but does she have that kind of firepower, even if she wanted to? These seem heavy hitters, with Harry as low end. I would not be surprised if the WC knows Elaine survived. they'd likely check the site of the fire, and lacking remains... And the higher ups may have an idea of her power level.
White Night shows she can throw out some big punches when she needs to and says she's not far behind Harry in terms of pure power. Of course she probably wasn't Grey Council like you said, willingly sticking her neck into a budding White Council civil war is the opposite of staying off the radar.
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If WoJ was that as of Changes we knew 6 of the 13 members, this is my best guess as to who:
1. McCoy
2. Harry
3. Listens-to-Wind
4. Martha Liberty
5. Donnar Vadderung
6. Rashid
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- Harry Dresden
- Eb McCoy
- Donar Vadderung
- Elder Gruff
- River Shoulders
- Martha Liberty
- Carlos Ramirez
- Klaus the Toymaker
- Ivy the Archive
- Pinga
- Māui
- Mami Wata
- Sun Wukong the Monkey King
Likely not there
- Listens-to-Winds - was sick with Arianna's curse.
- Luccio - too weak and likely locked/occupied by Cristos.
- Gatekeeper - likely at the Gates since Mab and Lea were both preoccupied with Harry.
- Wild Bill & Yoshimo - likely locked up.
- Chandler - likely busy with the issues at headquarters.
- Elaine - Not in the inner circle.
- Cristos - nobody trusts him.
- Merlin, Ancient Mai - likely know of the GC, but wouldn't be members for reasons.
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- Harry Dresden
- Eb McCoy
- Donar Vadderung
- Elder Gruff
- River Shoulders
- Martha Liberty
- Carlos Ramirez
- Klaus the Toymaker
- Ivy the Archive
- Pinga
- Māui
- Mami Wata
- Sun Wukong the Monkey King
Likely not there
- Listens-to-Winds - was sick with Arianna's curse.
- Luccio - too weak and likely locked/occupied by Cristos.
- Gatekeeper - likely at the Gates since Mab and Lea were both preoccupied with Harry.
- Wild Bill & Yoshimo - likely locked up.
- Chandler - likely busy with the issues at headquarters.
- Elaine - Not in the inner circle.
- Cristos - nobody trusts him.
- Merlin, Ancient Mai - likely know of the GC, but wouldn't be members for reasons.
River Shoulders is a tad big, no? I get he can shapeshift but why bother? Can't rule him out altogether but I feel if he was going to fight he would have been in his Bigfoot guise. That's how he normally does it.
I can't see Ramirez being on the team. Eb picked the team and he doesn't seem all that close to him. He also would have many older, less brash and vulnerable, and more experienced wizards to choose from. Also, Ramirez has really bought in to the White Council ethos. He's starting to drink the Kool-Aid (although...he might be right according to Jim). So I think he would be very conflicted if not outright sell out the Grey Council. Also, wasn't he arrested by Cristos?
Can't say I agree with the Archive either. Molly felt Vadderung's presence as he was the most powerful being there, I am sure Molly would have mentioned if she felt a similarly powerful being. Not that Ivy is as powerful, but she's well up there. She also would have been a tad short I think around that time, she might have stood out. Not to mention, the Archive is neutral. She quite specifically didn't choose sides between the White Council and the Red Court. I am not even sure she could have participated, considering how much it cost her to give Harry information in that book.
Your last four options (Pinga, Maui, Mama Wata and Sun Wukong) are interesting choices. Why those four in particular, out of interest?
LtW could have recovered from his illness in time for the fight...but that's an important point. He was sick right after Arianna's visit, so it's entirely possible he isn't on it.
Luccio - could have recovered but same issue. Good pick up.
GK - yep, could have been at the Gates. Also could not have been. AFAIK there wasn't an attack at that time...and Mab could have been at the Gates herself. She only went to Tir Na Nog briefly.
WB & Y - similar issues to Ramirez
Chandler - same as above, plus almost never leaves the SC.
Merlin - doesn't need a GC because he has a Council already. Same for Cristos in some ways.
Ancient Mai - not a combat wizard.
I could be wrong because I haven't touched up on the earlier books in a while but I'm pretty sure it's Winter who fights at the Gates, and Rashid is there to scan the injured who come through, for Nemesis is my guess. When he faced off against the vampires it was because they were ambushed, not because he was actively looking for combat from what I remember. Being dangerous doesn't just revolve around what you can do under a combat situation. Mike Tyson might be way more dangerous in a physical confrontation than a scientist, but a scientist who can create bioweapons is way more dangerous.
I'm not saying Rashid isn't capable of combat magic. He's got centuries of experience, and can probably do all kinds of crazy stuff. That said there is a difference between combat magic, and other forms of magic. The reason being that in a combat situation there is a measure of athleticism involved. You have to be quick, agile, and have endurance. I'm sure Rashid is quite capable, but he doesn't strike me as the type who'd fare well in a prolonged conflict where his physical body would be placed under quite a lot of stress. His magic might be able to hold up, but his body might not.
I don't remember for sure but I'm almost sure that at some point Jim said that Rashid uses as little magic as possible. He didn't go into detail, or explain why though.
Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful. Smiley - Jim.... In my opinion this has less to do with combat magic, or super powerful magic but probably has more to do with his knowledge, and possibly a gift for messing with time. I mean imagine someone who is able to alter time, alter the outcome of a fight... That is serious power right there.
I can't really see Rashid not getting into the fighting now and again if not all the time the battles are happening. But true enough, we don't have information either way. We'll have to wait for more information.
You're right about the idea behind dangerous. But then again, Jim has said his definition of power and Harry's definition are quite different. So Rashid doesn't have to be the most powerful to still be horribly dangerous in combat. Still though, he might be more of an assassin than a brawler or whatever.
You could be right about his body. But then again, Ebenezar doesn't seem to worried and he's about 300 years old. So it's a tricky one. Magic solves a lot of those issues too.
That's an interesting quote from Jim about Rashid - I'd love it if you know the source? No worries if not I will hunt for it. It's just a really intriguing statement.
Oh, I totally agree that part of what makes Rashid so dangerous is his ability to know the future. Hard to beat someone like that. But not impossible, clearly. Although I'd argue that knowing the future IS super powerful magic in some ways. Maybe not in terms of magical energy (although who knows) but it grants him knowledge that few mortals ever possess. Means he has the jump on a lot of situations. But power has purpose, so I'd imagine that eye seeing the future is important to beating the Outsiders. Not just Nemesis I'd imagine. Can Rashid alter time? Anymore than the rest of us with our choices? He has more informed choices but he still only would alter them the same way everyone else does, by choosing options. Unless you're saying he time-travels back and forward...but wouldn't that be breaking the Laws? I believe only one wizard has that privilege.
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River Shoulders is a tad big, no? I get he can shapeshift but why bother? Can't rule him out altogether but I feel if he was going to fight he would have been in his Bigfoot guise. That's how he normally does it.
I can't see Ramirez being on the team. Eb picked the team and he doesn't seem all that close to him. He also would have many older, less brash and vulnerable, and more experienced wizards to choose from. Also, Ramirez has really bought in to the White Council ethos. He's starting to drink the Kool-Aid (although...he might be right according to Jim). So I think he would be very conflicted if not outright sell out the Grey Council. Also, wasn't he arrested by Cristos?
Can't say I agree with the Archive either. Molly felt Vadderung's presence as he was the most powerful being there, I am sure Molly would have mentioned if she felt a similarly powerful being. Not that Ivy is as powerful, but she's well up there. She also would have been a tad short I think around that time, she might have stood out. Not to mention, the Archive is neutral. She quite specifically didn't choose sides between the White Council and the Red Court. I am not even sure she could have participated, considering how much it cost her to give Harry information in that book.
Your last four options (Pinga, Maui, Mama Wata and Sun Wukong) are interesting choices. Why those four in particular, out of interest?
Regrading River, he's large, but in a cloak at a distance while purposefully concealing all of their identities, I think it could be fine.
Regarding Carlos, he's the only one that got away from Cristos, per Chandler. Harry also previously vouched for Carlos, and his Council turn didn't start until after Changes. And he was injured at some point even before the Molly story, and it being in action unseen at CI makes sense.
Regrading Ivy, again, it's a matter of acting in secret, so hiding her identity would be required. And Ivy is neutral for the Accords, but not if the Reds were deemed to be in violation. But her involvement does seem like a stretch, even to me.
Regarding the four unknowns, I just wanted to list some possibilities that could be different than the usual western suspects. Eb seems like the type to collect acquaintances with powerful beings, and those seem like the kind that would help.
There are others I'd like to see as well, but they don't fit as well.
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As far as the GC goes, I'd say any member has to satisfy both of the following requirements:
1) Eb has to know them well enough to say that they are trustworthy to root out the BC with him
2) They have to be a magic user of some sort (all 13 carried staff-ish tools in CI)
I've always been a fan of Langtry being on the list. Sure, Langtry doesn't like Eb personally, but he's a strong wizard that Eb knows well enough that he can walk Harry through his three step strategies. Plus, being on the GC gives him more freedom to do things than he can in his position as Merlin. Especially when he's worried about BC attention.
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As far as the GC goes, I'd say any member has to satisfy both of the following requirements:
1) Eb has to know them well enough to say that they are trustworthy to root out the BC with him
2) They have to be a magic user of some sort (all 13 carried staff-ish tools in CI)
I've always been a fan of Langtry being on the list. Sure, Langtry doesn't like Eb personally, but he's a strong wizard that Eb knows well enough that he can walk Harry through his three step strategies. Plus, being on the GC gives him more freedom to do things than he can in his position as Merlin. Especially when he's worried about BC attention.
I liked him for it for a while, but the more I look at it, the more it doesn't fit. Yes, he wants to root out the Black Council. But to risk being caught with a renegade group to do it seems unlike him.
And if it got out that the Merlin was violating the rules, it'd be more than just the end of his career. It'd jeopardy the council itself.
I see him as knowing about the GC, if not all the members. And I see him hoping they succeed, and even pointing them (like Harry) in the right direction if he needs to. But being an actual member? Not so much.
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I liked him for it for a while, but the more I look at it, the more it doesn't fit. Yes, he wants to root out the Black Council. But to risk being caught with a renegade group to do it seems unlike him.
And if it got out that the Merlin was violating the rules, it'd be more than just the end of his career. It'd jeopardy the council itself.
I see him as knowing about the GC, if not all the members. And I see him hoping they succeed, and even pointing them (like Harry) in the right direction if he needs to. But being an actual member? Not so much.
Politically speaking, Langtry doesn't strike me as opposed to some risk when he has some levers to help control it. That was my impression in TC and Changes anyway. Plus the BC existing jeopardizes the WC anyway. It's a worthwhile risk to neutralize them.
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Regrading River, he's large, but in a cloak at a distance while purposefully concealing all of their identities, I think it could be fine.
Regarding Carlos, he's the only one that got away from Cristos, per Chandler. Harry also previously vouched for Carlos, and his Council turn didn't start until after Changes. And he was injured at some point even before the Molly story, and it being in action unseen at CI makes sense.
Regrading Ivy, again, it's a matter of acting in secret, so hiding her identity would be required. And Ivy is neutral for the Accords, but not if the Reds were deemed to be in violation. But her involvement does seem like a stretch, even to me.
Regarding the four unknowns, I just wanted to list some possibilities that could be different than the usual western suspects. Eb seems like the type to collect acquaintances with powerful beings, and those seem like the kind that would help.
There are others I'd like to see as well, but they don't fit as well.
I guess it's possible with River, even his natural form. He is 9ft tall though which would have made him the largest being there (unless there were a few Ick's around). I more think it's likely he will join later, when LtW dies. But it's possible.
I mean, when I read Changes I assumed his injuries were from fighting Cristos' men. My mistake, I thought he was arrested but as you say he did escape. I just wonder why Eb would pick a young warden he doesn't know well, rather than an old friend. Maybe someone he's known for decades or more. Also, strange that Carlos never mentioned it to Harry in later interactions? Not sure I'm convinced on him.
The four beings you chose are all allies of humanity so are good choices. Certainly out of left field but I like it!
Hopefully we will see more of the Grey Council soon.
As far as the GC goes, I'd say any member has to satisfy both of the following requirements:
1) Eb has to know them well enough to say that they are trustworthy to root out the BC with him
2) They have to be a magic user of some sort (all 13 carried staff-ish tools in CI)
I've always been a fan of Langtry being on the list. Sure, Langtry doesn't like Eb personally, but he's a strong wizard that Eb knows well enough that he can walk Harry through his three step strategies. Plus, being on the GC gives him more freedom to do things than he can in his position as Merlin. Especially when he's worried about BC attention.
Agree with the requirements.
Langtry just has too many issues, I feel. He could establish his own team for investigations, why make such a clandestine group, that isn't legal? Also, I doubt he would ever let Eb pick the team. He's a control freak. He wouldn't bow to Ebenezar's leadership.
I could see him actually authorizing it in a black ops sort of way. Like if you get caught you're on your own type of deal. Although honestly, how he could dictate to Vadderung is beyond me.
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Agree with the requirements.
Langtry just has too many issues, I feel. He could establish his own team for investigations, why make such a clandestine group, that isn't legal? Also, I doubt he would ever let Eb pick the team. He's a control freak. He wouldn't bow to Ebenezar's leadership.
I could see him actually authorizing it in a black ops sort of way. Like if you get caught you're on your own type of deal. Although honestly, how he could dictate to Vadderung is beyond me.
Could he really establish a clandestine group, though? He's the Merlin, but I'd imagine its hard for him to really do things without someone getting a peek into it. I think Eb could definitely start one much more easily. Legal/illegal is something that can be handled post-discovery if need be.
Overall, I think Eb/Langtry is a very similar relationship to Harry/Morgan. Would Morgan want Harry around running something important? Prob not, but there he was knocking on Harry's door in TC when big players were moving. Morgan trusted his knowledge of Harry enough to turn to him when official hands were tied. I think Langtry would make the same calculation for Eb.
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Could he really establish a clandestine group, though? He's the Merlin, but I'd imagine its hard for him to really do things without someone getting a peek into it. I think Eb could definitely start one much more easily. Legal/illegal is something that can be handled post-discovery if need be.
Overall, I think Eb/Langtry is a very similar relationship to Harry/Morgan. Would Morgan want Harry around running something important? Prob not, but there he was knocking on Harry's door in TC when big players were moving. Morgan trusted his knowledge of Harry enough to turn to him when official hands were tied. I think Langtry would make the same calculation for Eb.
Why not? He could establish the White Council version of internal affairs. He is the leader, he has that kind of authority. He might need a Senior Council vote, but if he suspected any of them he probably could just do it themselves. Like Cops, you swear allegiance to the Country but that manifests in the highest authority. I agree it's probably harder in many ways, and probably goes against his mindset. But it's certainly more likely to do it that way than join Eb's team.
At most, he might ask Eb to do it but claim plausible deniability. They are far more hostile than Morgan and Harry.
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Why not? He could establish the White Council version of internal affairs. He is the leader, he has that kind of authority. He might need a Senior Council vote, but if he suspected any of them he probably could just do it themselves. Like Cops, you swear allegiance to the Country but that manifests in the highest authority. I agree it's probably harder in many ways, and probably goes against his mindset. But it's certainly more likely to do it that way than join Eb's team.
At most, he might ask Eb to do it but claim plausible deniability. They are far more hostile than Morgan and Harry.
Yeah, that's the problem though. The White Council internal affairs already exists and is called the wardens. The Merlin can't go creating a "more trustworthy" group without having to explain it and tipping off potential BC members. Even moreso if it requires a full SC vote.
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I mean, not necessarily. The Merlin isn't equal to other Senior Council members - he's the leader. The Chairman, President, what have you. He has executive powers. He could do things the others couldn't. He might have already for all we know. Especially with emergency powers.
We know the White Council's legal system is very old fashioned and not terribly complex. We know that it isn't particularly fair and is unfairly concentrated at the top with fairly minimal checks and balances.
We also know that the Merlin is more than simply the strongest wizard (in magical terms) on the planet. He's also got the strongest political strength, the strongest political position, and he's the one who controls the White Council's financial power.
If he wanted to create some extra taskforce, he no doubt could. It would be risky, and if discovered he potentially risks a civil war, but he could do it. Not only that, but likely things would be to his advantage if he used already existing legal powers to create the task force - which he likely has. Considering what the White Council normally does, even if the Merlin were discovered before being ready, all he would have to do is convince them to go after a particular target (like Ebenezar or Christos) and he would divert the attention off of himself. More than likely the stalwarts on the Senior Council would side with him just to prevent a civil war, and throw one of their number (who might challenge it) to the wolves. Especially as by calling him out, it could potentially give the Merlin ammunition to say "Hey, they don't want me investigating because they're the bad guy!".
They threw Morgan to the wolves without blinking an eye to save the Council. The Merlin will always do what he thinks is necessary after all. Assuming they were not suspected of being black council, the Merlin would have the votes of Mai and Rashid easily. Then he only really needs to convince either Christos, Eb, Liberty, or Listens-to-Wind. LtW made it clear he would ruthlessly protect the Council if necessary so it wouldn't surprise me if he was in favor of it - especially if he wasn't on the Grey Council.
Assuming Christos didn't challenge the Merlin, he would almost certainly vote for an internal affairs taskforce whether he was black council or not. If he's black council, he gets to destabilise the Council further and could use it to rid himself of enemies. If he isn't, he would use it to strengthen his personal position. If he challenged the Merlin about it, he almost certainly would be labelled black council and executed - which would justify to the others the necessity for such a taskforce. I can't see the other SC members siding with him to take out the Merlin even if he was right about a taskforce being illegal and/or unethical - especially if they really did think he was black council, which some of them suspect, and they didn't appreciate him bullying his way onto the SC in the first place.
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I mean, not necessarily. The Merlin isn't equal to other Senior Council members - he's the leader. The Chairman, President, what have you. He has executive powers. He could do things the others couldn't. He might have already for all we know. Especially with emergency powers.
We know the White Council's legal system is very old fashioned and not terribly complex. We know that it isn't particularly fair and is unfairly concentrated at the top with fairly minimal checks and balances.
We also know that the Merlin is more than simply the strongest wizard (in magical terms) on the planet. He's also got the strongest political strength, the strongest political position, and he's the one who controls the White Council's financial power.
If he wanted to create some extra taskforce, he no doubt could. It would be risky, and if discovered he potentially risks a civil war, but he could do it. Not only that, but likely things would be to his advantage if he used already existing legal powers to create the task force - which he likely has. Considering what the White Council normally does, even if the Merlin were discovered before being ready, all he would have to do is convince them to go after a particular target (like Ebenezar or Christos) and he would divert the attention off of himself. More than likely the stalwarts on the Senior Council would side with him just to prevent a civil war, and throw one of their number (who might challenge it) to the wolves. Especially as by calling him out, it could potentially give the Merlin ammunition to say "Hey, they don't want me investigating because they're the bad guy!".
They threw Morgan to the wolves without blinking an eye to save the Council. The Merlin will always do what he thinks is necessary after all. Assuming they were not suspected of being black council, the Merlin would have the votes of Mai and Rashid easily. Then he only really needs to convince either Christos, Eb, Liberty, or Listens-to-Wind. LtW made it clear he would ruthlessly protect the Council if necessary so it wouldn't surprise me if he was in favor of it - especially if he wasn't on the Grey Council.
Assuming Christos didn't challenge the Merlin, he would almost certainly vote for an internal affairs taskforce whether he was black council or not. If he's black council, he gets to destabilise the Council further and could use it to rid himself of enemies. If he isn't, he would use it to strengthen his personal position. If he challenged the Merlin about it, he almost certainly would be labelled black council and executed - which would justify to the others the necessity for such a taskforce. I can't see the other SC members siding with him to take out the Merlin even if he was right about a taskforce being illegal and/or unethical - especially if they really did think he was black council, which some of them suspect, and they didn't appreciate him bullying his way onto the SC in the first place.
Legally, the Merlin no doubt does have the power to make a group with the mission of the GC. I just don't think he has the ability to do it quietly. Official power is loud in a bureaucracy. Not having the secrecy defeats the mission before it starts, though.
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Legally, the Merlin no doubt does have the power to make a group with the mission of the GC. I just don't think he has the ability to do it quietly. Official power is loud in a bureaucracy. Not having the secrecy defeats the mission before it starts, though.
Is it that uncommon for leaders to authorize such things? Especially in organisations with minimal checks? It's harder in a western government but even they have some powers in this regard. Considering the White Council rules are more typical of organisations several hundred years ago...it's doesn't beggar belief the Merlin has that sort of power.
Quietly doing it is a different matter because you also have to factor in that each one of the Senior Council is watching the rest and has their own agents and factions within the Council at large, including the Wardens. But it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the Merlin has a loyal cadre of Wardens himself and Langtry surely would have dealt with tight operational security in his long life. If he was only recruiting a handful of team members like Ebenezar it's less likely to be noticed.
Truth be told though, so far the Merlin has openly expressed his disbelief in a Black Council. I don't think he's stupid which only leaves corrupted or wilfully ignorant. I'd say it's the latter. Unless he's lying of course...but based on the hard evidence we can only assume he's telling the truth i.e. we haven't caught him in a lie yet.