#330 “Jim–someone else asked this as well, but I couldn’t see an answer: Little Chicago wasn’t mentioned in Turn Coat, and was barely mentioned in Changes… was it destroyed in the fire? Did the FBI notice it? It’s it gone for good?”
It was made of (mostly) pewter. The rest was plastic. Harry hadn’t taken steps to make it less destructible (which would have interfered with its function anyway–it was built to be sensitive, not tough). There was just no way it could have survived the fire. And no, the FBI didn’t confiscate it.
Changes is, in many ways, about loss. About encountering it and feeling its pain. That happens to all of us, sooner or later. There’s no avoiding it.
The real question is, how do you pick up the pieces and keep going, afterward.
"None of the evil geniuses I ever worked for could have handled something like this." He paused. "Though some of the psychotics could have, I guess."
Still, Jim is pretty good at keeping his books lean and relevant. If something isn't necessary for a book, why put it there? The Doylist argument of "He just figured this [time travel] out and wanted to show it off" doesn't hold up to me. I don't think he'd contrive to include a "this is how time travel works" treatise in PG if time travel wasn't crucial to the events of that novel.
Here is what LC has been used for in the series:
Add sending the Gruffs on a wild goose chase, via Mister.
and of course there is always the Harry Will Rebuild Little Chicago later thing.
Isn't the best reason for a 2.0 that you lost the 1.0 version?
The whole point of LC was to exemplify Harry's development in his stated magical strength. Thaumaturgy.
*twitch*
What he says his strength is varies even more than his stance on wanting a hat.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that one motivation for creating LC was the sight of the Faerie LC shown to him by Mab and/or Lea at the stone table? Doesn't that mean that 6 months out of the year, he will have limited access to a more powerful version?
3) I do think that AA was the first to "officially" finger Mab on the forums. That said, the most voracious pusher of the "Mab fixed LC" is Mrs. Duck. You really aught to include one of her "defend my theory against all comers" threads (e.g. here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30877.0.html)) if only to showcase the Darkest Guardian of the MFLCT (Mab fixed Little Chicago Theory). It also contains a poll where people voted for the various options.
If we're going in that direction, I could see a Little Earth by the end of the series.Hmmm. He did upgrade and expand the area it covered at one point (initially 2 mile radius, then a 4 mile radius in a later book, from Burnham harbor? I think?) ... but it still never covered all that large an area of Chicago itself.
Didn't he already use the Za Lord's Guard to help with LC?
... I seem to remember the battle at the end of SK (and I think the spot Lea took him) being referred to as something like "Chicago above Chicago" or something like that... But it was a 1:1 scale I think...SK chap. 23, paperback p. 264. When Harry realized that they were apparently on the clouds, Lea answered his questions as, "This is the world between, the sometimes place. Where Chicago and Faerie meet, overlap. Chicago-Over-Chicago, if you like. This is the place the Queens call forth when the Sidhe desire to spill blood." Harry saw it as the land which underlies Chicago and the water of the lake. Once Harry imagined the buildings he knew, Harry was envisioning the Chicago he himself lived in. It seems reasonable that Harry mentally constructed them as full-size buildings, not a miniaturized scale version.
He always said that he was a magical 'thug'; using raw power to overcome his lack of refinement and accuracy.
this is true, then perhaps the 'new' Harry could have grabbed Little Chicago before it slagged out, and then found a way to get it to the 'old' Harry. Or, he could have found a way to 3D scan the model so that it could be re-created by some computer-driven machinery. Someone non-magical, like Waldo Butters, would be needed to handle the details.
He's actually good for his age in the skill department according to Bob IIRC.
Actually, I'd really appreciate it if you, or someone else took the opportunity to write up at least one time travel theory in this topic (or another that can be dedicated to others responding and theorizing on time travel LC fixing theories.) Which I would then link to in the OP under that bullet.
I've had a thought on the "Who Fixed Little Chicago?" question, and my current front runner is...We know that Harry has met his other self. It could be Harry-Id or it could be Harry from another dimension. It seems equally logical if there is a Harry in another dimension then there would equally likely be a Bob there also. And if alterna-Bob and/or alterna-Harry saw the fatal flaw in Little Chicago, wouldn't they be motivated to fix the LC in their dimension /and/ the one in our dimension? (For convenience's sake, if I say Bob or Harry, it's the one we know; alterna- will mean the one(s) in one or more other dimensions.) It hasn't been part of Bob's responsibilities to stop intruders. In fact, Bob doesn't even have the right to defend his own skull, to be allowed to actively resist being taken against his will. So if Harry's lab was accessed by alterna-Harry or alterna-Bob or Mab, Bob would observe that as it happened but wouldn't and couldn't prevent it. Depending on how much alike alterna-Harry's life is, compared to Harry's, would alterna-Harry have either the knowledge to negate the wards in the same way that Harry does, or at least enough mutual memory to construct for himself the same kind of entry-talisman that Harry has provided in the past to Thomas and Anastasia?
...Bob
Of everybody/thing that we've seen by that point, Bob fills the Means/Motive/Opportunity requirements the best.
Means:
We have from Bob that building Little Chicago is something very few individuals could do. Whoever fixed it needed to have a lot of magical/thaumaturgical knowledge as well as an intimate, working knowledge of LC to know that there was a flaw, let alone fix it. That eliminates most of the Mortal world, and Nevernever.
Bob, however, helped Harry build it and was there every step of the way. He probably even had a direct "hand" in some of the really fine, fiddly bits.
Opportunity:
Anything that would want to fix LC would have to be able to cross Harry's threshold AND circumvent his wards... and a very stubborn steel door. We also know that Harry doesn't have any mirrors in his apartment, denying easy access to those who can/do use them. They'd also have to know about Harry's lab (all things considered, not a HUGE hurdle, but the trap door IS cleverly hidden by a throw rug).
None of that matters for Bob, as he is already inside, in the lab (where, by the by, he would have seen anyone who came in).
Also, Bob knows about LC. At this point in the story, very few people know about it... Basically limited to Harry, Bob, and maybe Thomas & Mouse. If you don't even know about it, how can you know that it has a fatal (literally) flaw that needs to be fixed, or how to fix it?
The "Means" part eliminates Mouse (no thumbs) and Thomas (doesn't know enough). Harry didn't fix it because he didn't know it was broken.
That leaves Bob.
Motive:
This one is sticky. I can't come up with a clear motive for Bob, other than he likes Harry, and doesn't want Harry or himself to get blowed up.
Now, here's the sticky part.
Mab
She's the queen of Air and Darkness. Bob is an Air spirit. I'm WAGing that perhaps Mab was able to speak to Bob, whose nature and history puts him in her domain, and told him that LC would or could go BOOM! if Harry tried to use it, and had (commanded) him to fix it.
While I'm WAGing I'll throw out two more:
1) Mab did this while tending to Lea's "garden" during Lea's "Reeducation", and fulfilling Lea's duty of watching out for Harry.
2) All beings on the order of power that Mab is don't see time in the same manner as mortals. I'm guessing that she has a similar perspective as Uriel (ie: time isn't linear, like driving in a car, but laid out to see in its entirety, like a street map). She either saw that it would explode, or looked in and saw that they missed something.
Now, as to why Bob doesn't seem to remember this. I think that it was actually another aspect of Bob's personality that we haven't seen onscreen yet, that Bob may not know about himself (like Evil Bob), and Mab was talking to THAT Bob.
We know Bob has a significant history in Winter, and specifically with Mab. We also know that parts of him are hidden, even from himself (like Evil Bob). I think it could be possible that there's a "Winter Bob" from his time in Winter.
One more possible cluebat: When talking about it afterwards, Bob repeatedly refers to whoever fixed it as "He". Bob could have said "They" to account for the fact that it could have been female (or identified itself as such), or could have been plural.
The repeated "he" could have been Bob's subconscious (or however that works for spirits) way of telling Harry that he did it.
We know that Harry has met his other self. It could be Harry-Id or it could be Harry from another dimension. It seems equally logical if there is a Harry in another dimension then there would equally likely be a Bob there also. And if alterna-Bob and/or alterna-Harry saw the fatal flaw in Little Chicago, wouldn't they be motivated to fix the LC in their dimension /and/ the one in our dimension? (For convenience's sake, if I say Bob or Harry, it's the one we know; alterna- will mean the one(s) in one or more other dimensions.) It hasn't been part of Bob's responsibilities to stop intruders. In fact, Bob doesn't even have the right to defend his own skull, to be allowed to actively resist being taken against his will. So if Harry's lab was accessed by alterna-Harry or alterna-Bob or Mab, Bob would observe that as it happened but wouldn't and couldn't prevent it. Depending on how much alike alterna-Harry's life is, compared to Harry's, would alterna-Harry have either the knowledge to negate the wards in the same way that Harry does, or at least enough mutual memory to construct for himself the same kind of entry-talisman that Harry has provided in the past to Thomas and Anastasia?
In terms of Mab, she would have at least two strong motivations. One is obligation, another is possessiveness. Lea promised Margaret to look out for Harry's best interests. Getting blown to bits would clearly not be that, so snuffing out the risk from flawed LC could very likely, in Sidhe logic, be considered as part of being proxy for Lea. And Mab would probably approach from the Nevernever rather than the street entrance, although either one could be done. For possessiveness, Mab wants Harry for her WK. For years she deprived herself of any useful Knight service from Slate or from a potential replacement because she waited to get Harry. Thus, fixing LC would be quite reasonable to Mab so that Harry wouldn't use it and get killed by doing so, either prior to become her Knight or during his service.
Alterna-anybody, and future anybody: How would they know there was a problem? The only way Bob knows that there was a problem was that it was fixed.
Time travel/alternate dimensions within the story are far too messy for my tastes, and I hope like hell Jim doesn't do that.
I'm just WAGing at Bob having another personality/version that he was ordered to keep under lock and key and forget about, since we've already seen it twice in the real world (Kemmler-Bob and Cowl-Bob)
To each their own, but I can see it being a lot neater than kytheros' example:That's true, that's another way to do it. Mine is an example of how to avoid paradox with somebody trying to stop/undo Harry having been blown up by trying Little Chicago the first time.
Step 1; the events of PG as we see them.
Step 2; Harry at some future point acquires the capacity to travel in time. Who fixed LC is a mystery he wants to resolve, so he goes back to find out.
Step 3: nobody else is there. harry realises it must have been him, does the fix, and goes home.
No alternate dimensions, no mess, no fuss.
Noe that seems counter-Occamian to me. I don't even believe in Cowl-Bob; Bob's already been ordered to be rid of his evil necroself by that point, he winks at Harry, so I am sure he is faking it.The first part of your post, I agree with. The second...
I don't even believe in Cowl-Bob; Bob's already been ordered to be rid of his evil necroself by that point, he winks at Harry, so I am sure he is faking it.
"Pretty good idea, Harry, talking to me on the ground. I didn't want to work for him anyway, but as long as he had the skull... Well you know how it is."
2009 Ann Arbor signing (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11734.msg505471.html#msg505471)
Why is Bob the way he is and will we find out why he's hated so by the Fey
Jim mentioned that Bob takes on some of the personality of his "master" so when he came to Harry. Harry was about 16 years old. Sooo that's why he's so smart alecky and into girls so much. As for the Fey comment mentioned we will find out in later books.
2011 Marscon (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22558.msg1004815.html#msg1004815)
Could you explain free will to us from Bob’s perspective?
Free will from Bob’s perspective? Bob thinks free will is a complete illusion, uh, since he doesn’t really have it. Um, it’s a conceit that mortals have to make themselves feel like they can be in control of things. Uh, but really, it doesn’t actually exist, that’s Bob’s take on it. But then again, Bob doesn’t really have free will, he’s sort of…
No free will ever? Or no free will to disobey when commanded? I don't know that it's possible to have intellect without will. Well, then again, most of us have to make decisions about what is true, and what isn't, or what to remember and forget - but a spirit of intellect is mostly just a talking library, right? A storehouse. Although, Bob seems to also understand what he knows... I'm getting over my head.Source (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28481.msg1220859.html#msg1220859)
Well, I don't want to hand out too much outside the context of an actual story. But within the context of the Dresden books, Bob isn't, like, an actual mortal person.
Mortals are the ones who have free will, the ability to choose what they're doing, to choose between right and wrong. Without getting too thickly into the underlying philosophy, that's the thing that separates, for example, mankind from the angels--the angels didn't get the same kind of choice about their existance, and what they would do with it. Mortals get the chance to make all kinds of decisions, and can change their minds, well, at will. Other creatures, though they may look like people, don't get the same range of choices about who and what they will be.
Mab, for example, is Mab. She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind. It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn't a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can't/ choose to change it. She simply isn't capable. She doesn't have free will in the same way that people do. It's related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well. Without a soul, you aren't free to choose how you will shape that soul. You just stay what you are.
But that's getting way off the subject of Bob. I mean, don't you think that if he had totally free will, he'd be out of the skull all the time, hitching rides in people's heads on their way into strip bars or something? There's a reason he obeys Harry, and it's not purely because Harry offers him shelter from a gruesome demise. It's a part of who and what he is.
From what Jim's said about Free Will, I can't see it working like this.
Isn't free will more like the ability to change your nature rather than independent thought?Yes, but part of Bob's nature is to obey. Otherwise he'd leave the skull to go check out strip bars all the time, instead of making deals with Harry to do so.
Yes, but part of Bob's nature is to obey. Otherwise he'd leave the skull to go check out strip bars all the time, instead of making deals with Harry to do so.
Yes, but part of Bob's nature is to obey. Otherwise he'd leave the skull to go check out strip bars all the time, instead of making deals with Harry to do so.
The way that Bob explained it to Harry read to me as though at first he just planned to never access those memories again. And what happens almost immediately afterwards? Cowl comes along and, once he has his hands on the skull, orders Bob to release the memories again. Bob, despite promising to never release those memories again, has to do so anyways.
As for the wink, I always thought that yes, whosoever has his hands on the skull is the owner, but while the skull is both on the ground and by an old owner, he can pick which one to listen to. Though, that does smack of free will, which Bob doesn't have...
but if he had cut those memories out of himself by that point, he wouldn't have had the knowledge of the Darkhollow to tell Cowl.
Did we ever get a solid reason as to how Cowl knew Harry had Bob?
In this quote, Bob himself states that he had to work for Cowl
I don't believe just talking to Bob, without having the prior order in place, would have been enough for Bob to reassert control. Otherwise, Bob would be showing something like Free Will in choosing which master he preferred.
Yes, but part of Bob's nature is to obey. Otherwise he'd leave the skull to go check out strip bars all the time, instead of making deals with Harry to do so.
I suspect Bob's libido is a lot more Harry's influence than Harry thinks; Bob with Butters appears to have a less obsessive focus by far.
Don't we have WoJ that it really is just Harry's influence?
Don't we have WoJ that it really is just Harry's influence?Bob is, well, more like a paint in a paint store. That is, there is a basic hue (which color it is), but its specific color will change depending on whether another hue or more white or more black gets mixed in. From that standpoint, Kemmler-Bob was colder, more inhuman, more power-hungry. Justin-Bob was probably along those same lines but quite likely was less intensively so. Harry-Bob was a bigger change; snarky wit, and his sex dial turned up to nine-plus or ten like a sixteen-year-old boy's often is. Less rote obedience, and more boldness bravely asking for / bargaining for freedoms and perks.
If this is the case, though, and Bob knows it, why on earth would he specifically thank Harry for ordering him to lose the memories forever ? [ DB end of chapter 3 ]How about because (when he's the Bob we all know and love) he hates being like that, so he was glad that Harry wouldn't be asking him to keep flipping back and forth in order to plumb that side of him for knowledge?
In your model, it makes no difference for how Bob interacts with potential future holders that Harry does so. In mine, that's the point at which he cuts off evil necroBob, and we don't have to come up with some explanation for how at a later point he managed to do so without specific instructions despite having no free will.I'm not sure that that's completely true. To me, it seems like an order, once given to Bob, is permanent, with the exception that future orders can counter previous ones. So if he was so ordered, then it would take an order from a future master to overrule it, potentially giving Bob a much longer period of time before the memories arise again.
Exactly.The difference between Free Will and just Will seem somewhat ambiguous, though. We know that Bob does have Will, just not Free Will. So with the understanding that whomever holds the skull controls Bob, once the skull is put down, who's to say that Bob cannot use Will to pick between two equally valid owners? Cowl did hold him last, but Harry was closer and actively seeking to reconnect their bond.
Which would be where I note that Grevane actually worked the Darkhallow, and all Cowl does is stand at the focal point at the very end. Though I think it is entirely possible that Bob could plausibly fake enough Darkhallow lore to keep Cowl satisfied off the top of his head.How could he fake any of it? If he cut off all of his relevant memories, then he wouldn't have anything with which to fake. More to the point, why would he even want to fake it, given that that would be disobeying his master, the one who was holding his skull?
Either following Harry around through DB or having been in Bianca's place in GP while Bob was warning people off Harry's stuff work for me.What was your theory for why he didn't just take Bob right then?
How about because (when he's the Bob we all know and love) he hates being like that, so he was glad that Harry wouldn't be asking him to keep flipping back and forth in order to plumb that side of him for knowledge?
To me, it seems like an order, once given to Bob, is permanent, with the exception that future orders can counter previous ones. So if he was so ordered, then it would take an order from a future master to overrule it, potentially giving Bob a much longer period of time before the memories arise again.
The difference between Free Will and just Will seem somewhat ambiguous, though. We know that Bob does have Will, just not Free Will. So with the understanding that whomever holds the skull controls Bob, once the skull is put down, who's to say that Bob cannot use Will to pick between two equally valid owners? Cowl did hold him last, but Harry was closer and actively seeking to reconnect their bond.
How could he fake any of it? If he cut off all of his relevant memories, then he wouldn't have anything with which to fake.
More to the point, why would he even want to fake it, given that that would be disobeying his master, the one who was holding his skull?
What was your theory for why he didn't just take Bob right then?
It's already clear that Harry won't be doing that before harry gives him the specific command to have those memories sleep with the fishes, though.Because nobody likes having a solid reason and confirmation that they won't have to do something that they are afraid to do?
Except that it took very specific and direct orders from Harry to bring those memories out in the first place. They're not something it appears that Bob does not have under control or has to worry about slipping out in the general run of things.Yes, but presumably Harry has never told Bob "tell me everything that you can think of that could bring me more power" or "what do you know that would let me be powerful quickly?" I doubt that the black hats and psychopaths that Bob typically works for would let that possibility pass them by. And if you were going to ask why it hasn't happened before, then, I would respond that Justin was the only person who held Bob since Kemmler's final death, and presumably he had other plans for power, ones that involved Outsiders instead.
That model also works, I'm not arguing against that. I am arguing that a) it is not the only model that works, and b) precisely how non-free will works and what Bob has in that context is really pretty murky sfaict so i am reluctant to base arguments too strongly on it.Ah, I see. So what do you see as significant or long-term differences between our theories? If your answer is nothing, then I would suggest we drop this line of discussion.
He's very intelligent, knows a great deal about magic theory in general, and, depending on when Cowl asks him what, could well have any information he can gain from watching Grevane perform the Darkhallow to call on. Even without that last, it does not stretch my suspension of disbelief that Bob would be smart enough to make up a plausible means for the Darkhallow out of whole cloth.So then, when Bob told Harry in the beginning that without those memories he wouldn't be able to help Harry at all, why didn't he start spitting out theories right then? Or a few minutes later, after he had recovered some equilibrium?
We know that becoming Bob's master is not just simply an issue of whoever last handled the skull; otherwise, there would have been issues with Murphy in "Something Borrowed". I do not believe Cowl is ever Bob's master; every other change of master that happens to Bob occurs when the previous master is dead, and I can totally believe Bob still being bound to Harry and faking it for Cowl.It does not appear to be beyond question that the holder of the skull has to have some sort of magical talent in order to actually become the owner.
In GP ?Given that the author is still alive and that furthermore two copies of the book were found in the same small bookstore, I don't really think that it would take that long to find a copy of the book. The Native American artifacts were useful, for a certainty, but not only do I not think it essential, there are loads of other gatherings of important artifacts, some of which that should have already been in the Museum. Also, are you suggesting that the boundary still hasn't recovered from GP to DB, what, four years later? And, to be fair, Cowl and Kumori were right there too. I would think making sure that he had the tool he needed early on would make a lot of sense--for all Harry would know, Bianca had stashed it somewhere separate from the rest of his gear, and for all Cowl knew, Harry kept Bob stashed behind layers and layers of wards. He really did luck out on Harry removing him from his defenses...
if you think Cowl actually wants to carry out the Darkhallow, well, it takes a lot of preparation. It needs the Erlking book to be found, it needs the exhibition of ancient Native American stuff that Corpsetaker is preparing in the guise of Bartleby as a source of ancient zombies, it needs the boundary between Earth and the NN to be ripped up by the tormented ghost stuff in GP. (Which, come to think of it, indicates that somebody might well have been working in Darkhallow prep prior to GP; the tormented-ghosts plan is kind of overengineered for merely getting Bianca's revenge on Harry, it has a very specific side-effect of ripping up the boundary, and mavra is right there as a suspect.) Cowl expresses active disdain for Kemmler and the Kemmlerites, and what we see of him elsewhere has no necromancy involved, so I can believe he has no real need of Bob until his plan is ready.
If, like me, you believe that Cowl and probably Mavra played the entirety of DB primarily to have the White Council take on Grevane and Corpsetaker and secondarily to mislead the Red Court into thinking they were about to have a necrogod ally, therefore over-reaching by trespassing on Faerie under the impression they were about to obliterate the White Council, and ensuingly getting the living daylights kicked out of them by Summer in PG, then Cowl leaving Bob with Harry makes even more sense as not tipping his hand and leaving all the pieces in the right place.I'm not sure that I buy your rationale, but you do at least have one. Why would Cowl and/or Mavra and/or the BC want the RC smacked around? To extend the conflict?
I'd also note that one consequence of the "Cowl was associated with the Justin/Maggie/Lord Raith cabal" notion is that it could mean Cowl has known where Bob is all along; first through knowing Justin had him, and then through knowing Harry had survived and the Council had not destroyed Bob. (From what Luccio says about Bob in SmF, finding he had survived Kemmler's defeat after all would have been major news in the Council, so the lack of that news when Justin dies would tell Cowl someone else had retrieved Bob, and Harry's the logical prime suspect.)Granted, and I suppose that that suspicion could have been confirmed in GP.
Because nobody likes having a solid reason and confirmation that they won't have to do something that they are afraid to do?
Yes, but presumably Harry has never told Bob "tell me everything that you can think of that could bring me more power" or "what do you know that would let me be powerful quickly?"
Ah, I see. So what do you see as significant or long-term differences between our theories? If your answer is nothing, then I would suggest we drop this line of discussion.
So then, when Bob told Harry in the beginning that without those memories he wouldn't be able to help Harry at all, why didn't he start spitting out theories right then? Or a few minutes later, after he had recovered some equilibrium?
It does not appear to be beyond question that the holder of the skull has to have some sort of magical talent in order to actually become the owner.
Given that the author is still alive and that furthermore two copies of the book were found in the same small bookstore, I don't really think that it would take that long to find a copy of the book. The Native American artifacts were useful, for a certainty, but not only do I not think it essential, there are loads of other gatherings of important artifacts, some of which that should have already been in the Museum. Also, are you suggesting that the boundary still hasn't recovered from GP to DB, what, four years later?
And, to be fair, Cowl and Kumori were right there too. I would think making sure that he had the tool he needed early on would make a lot of sense--for all Harry would know, Bianca had stashed it somewhere separate from the rest of his gear, and for all Cowl knew, Harry kept Bob stashed behind layers and layers of wards. He really did luck out on Harry removing him from his defenses...
I'm not sure that I buy your rationale, but you do at least have one. Why would Cowl and/or Mavra and/or the BC want the RC smacked around? To extend the conflict?
Unless that command enables Bob to sever those memories permanently, it's not a solid reason and confirmation, though. Even if Harry calmed the heck down and went off to live up a mountain and not get involved with the rest of the universe, Bob knows from the beginning that he will still outlive him; with the risks Harry takes, it could well be a lot sooner than that.My meaning is that I thought that with a command like "Never remember that again," it might be that Bob would require a specific order to countermand the previous one, while Harry just refusing to call upon it again would leave it open to any general query about shortcuts to power.
With the sort of fights Harry gets into, I can totally see Bob worrying that Harry might ask him this sooner or later.Perhaps, but I think it's pretty fair to say that Harry fears that aspect of himself pretty strongly. Bob might not understand it, but I would think that he would at least recognize it.
Because he has no stake in deceiving Harry. There is a difference between "Bob can come out with plausible-sounding explanations for the Darkhallow enough to keep Cowl happy" and "Bob can come up with the actual explanation of what's going on to help Harry", and I meant the former, I am sorry if I was not clear. In the former case Bob, still loyal to Harry, has a strong motive to feed Cowl misinformation that might get him killed, in the latter, his motive leads in exactly the opposite direction.Aaah, I see, I missed that the thrust of your point was that Bob was frantically BSing to save his incorporeal hide. Gotcha.
I thought we had WoJ that Butters did not have any sort of magical talent.Ah, that would be what I like to call a mental hiccup. I withdraw my objection, for the most part, and acknowledge that it could be based on the previous owner being dead. There are other possibilities, though, like intent to take ownership.
Yes, I am. I believe Lash alludes to this being the case in DB. Furthermore, I believe the long-term damage done to that barrier is why the events of SK with the Stone Table happen around Chicago specifically, and why other supernaturals focus their major evil plans on Chicago quite so much in general despite it having a scary wizard protector. One of my strong expectations for the BAT is that we are going to see Chicago as a whole fall into the NN for a bit - like unto the incident with Milwaukee (iirc) that Harry alludes to in SF.Two points. 1) Could you supply the quote for that allusion? 2) That's a marvelous theory, that I shall have to consider more fully.
Unless you regard Harry's place coming under siege and Harry managing to/needing to escape as a thing that's within Cowl's power to set up. I don't think that's entirely impossible, if one believes Cowl's allusions to working with Grevane and Corpsetaker.I personally don't think that he did set it up, but I can buy that he could have done so if he found it necessary.
I can buy Cowl, and whatever Outsider-oriented axis of power Cowl works for (and maybe Mavra also), having a campaign objective centred on weakening, damaging, or taking control of so many supernatural power groups as possible. That would fit with prolonging the White Council/Red Court war to maximise the damage done to both sides; it would fit with insinuating the athame into Winter, which we know from the text was provided via Cowl, and which is the most plausible vector we have for whatever form of damage happens to Lea between SK and DB and to Mab thereafter; it would fit with attempting to foment a coup in the White Court that placed one of his agents near the top, and when that failed and he was exposed, with devastating the upper echelons of the White Court with uberghouls.I agree with you that that seems to be an objective of the BC, but the idea that they are predicted everything that happened is a bit ludicrous, I think. I'd be more inclined to think that they built that in as a Plan B, with Plan A including crushing the WC and then immediately turning around and crushing the RC. Plus, then the BC would have a protogodling on their side, which is hard to top.
For the record my thinking is not very original on little chicago, i think lea did it or mab did it because of lea's obligations. Of course there is another wizard who spend a considerable portion of her time in harry's basement. Her skill set is entirely different from harry's as well. Perhaps she saw something that was intuitive to her that someone not versed in the subtle arts would have missed. For instance I am a prety decent hand at building computers but my friend bridget works for dell, she often fixes things i did not realise i had missed and considers them so beneath her notice that she rarely mentions it when i have something on my work bench and she is bored.Little Chicago was built and fixed in a timeframe when Harry and Bob (and Lea/Mab) are the only known people with adequate magical backgrounds and knowledge who were in his lab.
Little Chicago was built and fixed in a timeframe when Harry and Bob (and Lea/Mab) are the only known people with adequate magical backgrounds and knowledge who were in his lab.
My meaning is that I thought that with a command like "Never remember that again," it might be that Bob would require a specific order to countermand the previous one, while Harry just refusing to call upon it again would leave it open to any general query about shortcuts to power.
Perhaps, but I think it's pretty fair to say that Harry fears that aspect of himself pretty strongly.
Two points. 1) Could you supply the quote for that allusion?
I agree with you that that seems to be an objective of the BC, but the idea that they are predicted everything that happened is a bit ludicrous, I think.
I'd be more inclined to think that they built that in as a Plan B, with Plan A including crushing the WC and then immediately turning around and crushing the RC. Plus, then the BC would have a protogodling on their side, which is hard to top.
But also at a point when Thomas and Murphy both have keys to Harry's apartment and wards, yes ? So basically any player who could persuade or magically compel either of the above is a suspect.But said player would need to know of Little Chicago's existence. Oh, I suppose that someone might have had Thomas and/or Murphy let them in for a look around and spotted Little Chicago ... but they'd have had to do so (a) during time periods that Thomas/Murphy would not be missed, (b) times that Dresden wasn't around, and (c) probably multiple times in order to gain sufficient understanding of Little Chicago's construction - plus they'd need some way to not get noticed by Bob or Mouse. Then the question becomes, if you're going to have Thomas/Murphy secretly let you into Dresden's place, so you're probably not friendly with Dresden - why are you fixing Little Chicago?
But said player would need to know of Little Chicago's existence.
Oh, I suppose that someone might have had Thomas and/or Murphy let them in for a look around and spotted Little Chicago ... but they'd have had to do so (a) during time periods that Thomas/Murphy would not be missed, (b) times that Dresden wasn't around, and (c) probably multiple times in order to gain sufficient understanding of Little Chicago's construction - plus they'd need some way to not get noticed by Bob or Mouse.
Then the question becomes, if you're going to have Thomas/Murphy secretly let you into Dresden's place, so you're probably not friendly with Dresden - why are you fixing Little Chicago?
Possibly, but I'm not remembering any other supporting evidence for that model off the top of my head.How about how Bob made Harry order him to unlock those memories in the first place?
Indeed, but he does seem to have a tendency to get into situations where looking for extra power is necessary despite his preferences.Granted.
Which allusion ?No, I remember the Unseelie Incursion one, that was discussed the first time Harry was describing Susan/Arcane in SF.
Lash telling Harry about the ingredients for the Darkhallow, I was slightly misremembering: DB, pb, p.373, Harry reports it to Butters and we don't see it directly. (I suspect there is something in there we need not to see, fwiw.). "The last several years have seen some serious magical turbulence around Chicago. Kemmler's disciples can put the turbulence to work for them too." is the line I am reading as indicating that the boundary between our world and the NN is still in flux, and that that is being useful to Kemmlerites, and that that could have been planned by Mavra
If you mean the Unseelie Incursion of 199-something when Milwaukee vanished, I am pretty sure it's in SF but it's an aside of Harry's and I'm not at all sure where in the text; maybe we should ask one of our betas with searchable e-texts.
Predicting that annoyed Faerie will exact payback does not seem to me to take very much effort, and as for the vampires making the decision to trespass on Faerie in the first place, I don't think that takes prediction so much as manipulation. The Red Court sorcerous auxiliaries are, in this model, working with Cowl, and may well be able to sell the Reds on that being a safe thing to do if they expect to have a god-level protector imminently.I meant more of what I said above, about how close Cowl got to god-mode.
I remain unconvinced that this is actually workable, though. By what Harry says about gods in general in PG, most of them seem to have been actively exiled from Earth into the far NN; it would not surprise me if the process of transformation into deity was followed nigh-instantly by removal from the theatre of operations, and if Cowl knows this and the Reds do not.So I ask again, why would Cowl play it so close if he was never intending to actually ascend? Barring any sort of time traveling theories, of course.
...Not a beta, and in terms of the weakened barrier these may not be what you were looking for, but here goes for what they're worth:
Which allusion ?
Lash telling Harry about the ingredients for the Darkhallow, I was slightly misremembering: DB, pb, p.373, Harry reports it to Butters and we don't see it directly. (I suspect there is something in there we need not to see, fwiw.). "The last several years have seen some serious magical turbulence around Chicago. Kemmler's disciples can put the turbulence to work for them too." is the line I am reading as indicating that the boundary between our world and the NN is still in flux, and that that is being useful to Kemmlerites, and that that could have been planned by Mavra
If you mean the Unseelie Incursion of 199-something when Milwaukee vanished, I am pretty sure it's in SF but it's an aside of Harry's and I'm not at all sure where in the text; maybe we should ask one of our betas with searchable e-texts.
Harry's wards are one thing. They're on the outside, and nothing's concealing them. Little Chicago was in his basement, behind the wards, the only way to see in there is to physically eyeball the place, somehow scry the place(through the wards), or brave Lea's garden.Quote
But said player would need to know of Little Chicago's existence.
I'm unconvinced that's unlikely or difficult, if we take Lara's intelligence report on Harry's wards in BR as reasonably representative of the information-gathering capacities of major powers under the Accords.
While, strictly speaking, true ... that's also a timespan when both Thomas and Murphy would have been noticed as missing. Also ... that's probably not enough time to figure out what Little Chicago is, how it was built, notice something is wrong with it, figure out how to fix it, starting cold - plus bypassing the wards, all without being noticed. Little Chicago took Dresden 6 months of work, plus an unknown and indeterminate amount of planning and preparatory work. I think the person who fixed Little Chicago would have needed way more time than was available in PG, they would have needed to start studying/learning up on Little Chicago for a lengthy stretch of time, possibly ever since Dresden started.QuoteWe have a sizable timespan in the middle of PG when neither Bob nor Mouse are home, fwiw.
Oh, I suppose that someone might have had Thomas and/or Murphy let them in for a look around and spotted Little Chicago ... but they'd have had to do so (a) during time periods that Thomas/Murphy would not be missed, (b) times that Dresden wasn't around, and (c) probably multiple times in order to gain sufficient understanding of Little Chicago's construction - plus they'd need some way to not get noticed by Bob or Mouse.
They still need to know about it. Though the motive for secrecy is believable, yet they'd probably need to have messed with Thomas/Murphy's mind if they used one of them to get in, since nothing was ever said. Hmm, I suppose one of their ward-bypassing talismans could have been used to make a copy at some point, but the problems of Mouse and Bob are still there.QuoteThen the question becomes, if you're going to have Thomas/Murphy secretly let you into Dresden's place, so you're probably not friendly with Dresden - why are you fixing Little Chicago?
I think the logic there is back to front; fixing Little Chicago seems only to fit with a benevolent approach, or at least having more use for a living Harry than otherwise (which could be any number of the hostiles we have seen in the series more minded to use him for their own ends than kill him.) As to why a friendly would want to do it secretly, well, maybe it's a friendly whom Harry would not recognise as a friendly, or be readily persuadable to recognise as a friendly while up to his eyes in other plot elements.
How about how Bob made Harry order him to unlock those memories in the first place?
Ah, I see. Well, while it is certainly interesting enough that I'll be including it in my fanfic if it ever gets off the ground, I'm not completely convinced that it is canon. I had assumed previously that he was talking about all of the crap that kept going down in Chicago. But if you're right, and Mavra directly planned it that way, why make sure it's in Chicago? Because she knew that she'd have access to blackmail material on the local White Hat at just the right time?
Though...I suppose you could argue that Mavra, working with Cowl, delayed the instigation of the Darkhallow until she had the blackmail material needed to get Harry involved..
but how could they have known that Harry would manage to stop Cowl just in time?
It was really close--what was their backup plan if the Erlking had just killed Dresden right off or whatnot, pretend to fub it up at the last second?
Harry's wards are one thing. They're on the outside, and nothing's concealing them. Little Chicago was in his basement, behind the wards, the only way to see in there is to physically eyeball the place, somehow scry the place(through the wards), or brave Lea's garden.
QuoteWe have a sizable timespan in the middle of PG when neither Bob nor Mouse are home, fwiw.While, strictly speaking, true ... that's also a timespan when both Thomas and Murphy would have been noticed as missing.
Also ... that's probably not enough time to figure out what Little Chicago is, how it was built, notice something is wrong with it, figure out how to fix it, starting cold - plus bypassing the wards, all without being noticed. Little Chicago took Dresden 6 months of work, plus an unknown and indeterminate amount of planning and preparatory work. I think the person who fixed Little Chicago would have needed way more time than was available in PG, they would have needed to start studying/learning up on Little Chicago for a lengthy stretch of time, possibly ever since Dresden started.
Lara has got good enough intel on his wards to know that if Harry goes into lockdown as per DM he won't be able to get out again and therefore he would be the only option for Thomas to feed on. That does not read to me like they're a perfect defence against deducing information from/through.So ... something he's done before? The wards aren't invisible to people with the Sight, nor is there any effort made to conceal them. The wards are on the exterior. They can be visually examined, ala the wards on the Corpsetaker's hideout in Ghost Story. The lab with Little Chicago is buried behind them, and depending on what how one views the efficacy of the circle around Lasciel's Coin ... right next to a Denarian Coin. I'm not certain one could look from the outside without disturbing the wards/Bob.
QuoteWhile, strictly speaking, true ... that's also a timespan when both Thomas and Murphy would have been noticed as missing.IIRC, we have Harry's lunch with Lily and Maeve, several hours of stuff at the hotel with Murphy around at the beginning of it, Harry getting knocked out and captured by Madrigal, and then Thomas appearing to save the day. Depending on how long Harry is unconscious and captive, that's a span of a good few hours with Murphy unaccounted for and longer for Thomas.
Bob saw the change and what it did ... because he'd been involved at every stage of planning, prep work, and construction with Harry.
Bob sees the change and deduces what it will do in moments.
Also, if you believe as I do that Cowl in WN is pulling his punches to not kill Harry while looking like he barely missed killing Harry, that entails deducing a fair bit about Little Chicago's capacities in a matter of a few seconds.
Little Chicago is a major undertaking in a direction of magic that Harry's really not focused on before. I think it taking him six months is comparable to Molly's slow progress with shields, frex. I can believe a Senior Council level talent like Cowl with some experience in that form of magic being able to figure it out and fix it on a scale of hours. I can believe an entity at Mab levels of superhuman being able to do it in minutes. (The analogy that seems apt here is that I have been doing a particular subset of computer-programming-type things professionally for close on twenty-five years, and there have been times in my particular field of expertise when I've been presented with a specific unfamiliar-to-me problem using basic principles I know well, and have solved or made more progress on it in ten minutes than people without that have been able to in months.)
For the lunch with Lily and Maeve, Bob is still in the lab.
So Harry takes Bob out of his apartment, does nothing with him & returns him briefly to his aparement?He hadn't taken Bob with him yet. He took a cab from his apartment to Mac's for the Lily and Maeve meeting, though he did bring Mouse with him.
In my mind, its more likely that Harry leaves Bob with Murphy after he has her drop him off at Mac's. He then retrieves Bob afterwards.
To get back to the beginning, I think Little Chicago was useful for a couple of stories, and might have been great had Harry's story arc remained in Chicago. But I think Jim thought it binding, that he was thinking beyond Harry the Private Eye/Wizard, so it went up along with his, car, apartment and duster. And his 'old' life.Little Chicago, even at it's known largest form (4 mile radius from Burnham Harbor), has never covered more than just a portion of Chicago, much less the metropolitan area.
While it might have proven useful in past stories, simply knowing it was there would have led people like us to ask "Why didn't Harry try Little Chicago When . . . .?" I think it became a noose around his literary neck, as was the Beetle and some of the other tropes. Harry's story began as a writing exercise, built around classic PI fiction with a magical twist. But as Jim wrote the world evolved and changed, and he began to see more interesting possibilities in it. The Codex Alera shows his interest in the epic, and he began to see that Harry could be an Epic hero, with more humor and reluctance then most, but it's a line that might be carried through the story. Little Chicago, the Beetle, his apartment, and duster were the sort of things that belonged to struggling PI Harry. Epic Hero Harry doesn't really need those quirks, and in fact they hold him back a bit.
This doesn't mean Harry stops eating at Burger King, or gives up his friends, but symbolizes that the stakes are rising, and the scale of his problems have left Chicago behind.
He hadn't taken Bob with him yet. He took a cab from his apartment to Mac's for the Lily and Maeve meeting, though he did bring Mouse with him.
He only took Bob out with him the second? Third? day that he went to SplatterCon!!! - when he set up the warning web. Aka, the same day of the Xenomorph-phobophage attack (the last phobophage attack, the one that grabbed Molly), and his capture by Madrigal.
I am also not quite certain why one could not just tell Bob to forget about it.
Can only his owner do that?
I am also not quite certain why one could not just tell Bob to forget about it.
Can only his owner do that?
On later consideration i do not believe the brownies enter harry's lab, so withdrawing brownies as suspect.
it is mentioned that there is a "No Brownies In The Lab" rule so unless one of the brownies ignored that rule thats a NO GO. (may explain how WhoEver found out about LC maybe).
However, there is a loophole. Ebenezar openly admits, in his confession of being the Blackstaff, that he has, with impunity, violated every law of magic, including the flow of time.No he doesn't. He admits that he has license to do so, but the only thing he admits to actually doing is a lot of killing.
#2 part 2 LC v2.0
If the point of LC was to show that Harry was building thaumaturgy muscle (specifically with theater spanning voodoo dolls) and the logical progression after the first one was destroyed is that he would build a 2nd that is more ambitious, what will v2.0 be like?
I suspect that such a device would somehow be tied to Demonreach. There is good reason to believe that Harry will end up dwelling in the hut by the lighthouse, and that will be where his new lab will be... So I posit that either LCv2.0 will be one of 2 things.
- A portable model of Demonreach that he can carry around and use as a portable link to the benefits of that sanctum.
- A fixed model of something else (the world?) built in a new lab on Demonreach. This diserves some extra bullets
- Harry's new ability to go pretty much anywhere he wants via ways his mother found would certainly help facilitate gathering material for thaumaturgy links for such a model.
- Such a model might have some interesting interactions with Harry's Demoreach Sanctum benefits. Intelectus wherever the model goes?
and of course there is always the Harry Will Rebuild Little Chicago later thing.
Isn't the best reason for a 2.0 that you lost the 1.0 version??
With LC 1.0 Harry proved IT CAN BE DONE so he could get various Winter Minions to help gather the bits and chunks to do a New Version (he could in fact make an even BIGGER ONE) and add new features like a WayMaker and such. (Hmm what would happen if Harry FORZAREd the replica of a building with LC "online"??)
Time-travel theories suffer because you just can't learn, in the future, that Harry was suppose to die in the past and then go back and stop it without creating a paradox.
Of course there is a single conclusion that will solve both of these problems: whoever fixed LC did NOT do it to save Harry's life, they did it because they needed to use LC. This solves problem #1 because LC has already been used for a significant purpose that will be revealed in a future novel. It solves problem #2 because it expands the possibilities of who fixed LC beyond the paradoxical "time traveled from the future just to save Harry" candidates. Honestly, if it was time travel, I'd be much more willing to accept it as non-paradoxical if saving Harry is a byproduct of the real goal. It also makes a lot more sense if Mab fixed LC because she had another use for it beyond it being necessary to help Harry.
Still, Jim is pretty good at keeping his books lean and relevant. If something isn't necessary for a book, why put it there? The Doylist argument of "He just figured this [time travel] out and wanted to show it off" doesn't hold up to me. I don't think he'd contrive to include a "this is how time travel works" treatise in PG if time travel wasn't crucial to the events of that novel.
Oh I saw this coming after reading your first paragraph! Awesome idea, I'll add it as a #4, although I feel as though this idea doesn't exclude it being a time travel, or alternate universe Harry.
... I'll paste in what I edit into the theory posts into an edit of this post later.
You might have missed it the original time I posted, but if you're going to be updating the first post, you might want to include that Little Chicago saw use in Love Hurts. Sure, it was an unsuccessful attempt to find the source of the mind boinking, but it was mentioned.
And I did come up with a fully expanded version of my alternate universe theory (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34004.0.html), admittedly the thread gets bogged down be people either not being able to wrap their head around what I'm trying to say. Or suggesting that time travel works exactly the same as some other media.
My own personal view from Bob's discussions, is that it doesn't & people thinking otherwise, are just being wishful thinkers.
Its just the original post mentions an alternate dimension theory, but doesn't expand on what that is & you did request I try to expand my theory.
Oh I saw this coming after reading your first paragraph! Awesome idea, I'll add it as a #4, although I feel as though this idea doesn't exclude it being a time travel, or alternate universe Harry.
I'm not sure if I should put this here, or revisit & bump my thread, but in my reading you can only get two results from directly attempting time travel. 1, you can create a new universe in which the change was made, get a bunch of mental backlash in the process. 2, you can end existence. In both cases, you don't ever personally benefit from the changes.
I'm not sure if I should put this here, or revisit & bump my thread, but in my reading you can only get two results from directly attempting time travel. 1, you can create a new universe in which the change was made, get a bunch of mental backlash in the process. 2, you can end existence.
It seems to me pretty obvious that the "time travel ends existence" postulate can't have been experimentally checked, so we are free to consider it unproven.Unless it happened in one of those alternate reality universes that Bob talks about.
Just like you need a conscious mind to use hellfire/soulfire? or different?
I'm just going to have to go down on record as saying that the procedures needed to fiddle with Little Chicago are probably just a tad different to desperately calling on any power available and getting hellfire.
Fair enough.
But, putting this aside, what about the Gatekeeper wanting Harry dead?
There are plenty of easier ways for him to do it, no one knows where he is most of the time, he could just sneak up on Harry under a veil, kill him and say he was out Gatekeeping if anyone asked.
There are plenty of easier ways for him to do it, no one knows where he is most of the time, he could just sneak up on Harry under a veil, kill him and say he was out Gatekeeping if anyone asked.He could have let the Merlin do it at the trial at the end of proven guilty.he did his best to save both Molly and Harry there.
But, putting this aside, what about the Gatekeeper wanting Harry dead?
The reason is, the only apparent thing the gatekeeper does accomplish is getting Harry to use LC before it is ready. Harry would still get the phone call, and would still be involved without the note, right? What did the gatekeeper actually change?
As far as harry getting hit by the car, why can't it be a regular accident? There are people who don't have insurance that would flee from an accident to avoid having to pay to fix the other person's car.
The real question I am trying to answer is what would have transpired without the gatekeeper getting a message.
The reason is, the only apparent thing the gatekeeper does accomplish is getting Harry to use LC before it is ready. Harry would still get the phone call, and would still be involved without the note, right? What did the gatekeeper actually change?
Harry fixed Little Chicago or more accurately Lash used Harry to fix it.
Lash is the only one with the means, know how and chance to fix it.
It wouldn't be the first time Lash had intervened to protect Harry from death.
Basically Lash knew it was broken, she tried to get Harry to take up the coin to protect himself and when he refused she chose to fix it to prevent Harry from dying.
As far as harry getting hit by the car, why can't it be a regular accident? There are people who don't have insurance that would flee from an accident to avoid having to pay to fix the other person's car.
As far as harry getting hit by the car, why can't it be a regular accident? There are people who don't have insurance that would flee from an accident to avoid having to pay to fix the other person's car.Go read the accident scene again. It's clearly an attack. The driver backs off and them hits him again.
I think LC was very useful to Harry, it just didn't get a lot of screen time. LC was mostly used to speed up the tracking of lost items. Therefore LC could simply be something that Harry made to speed up his business and because he though it would cool. I know a lot of people who go home and make random things that serve absolutely no purpose besides being fun to make. Heck, Legos has made a ton of money on that. Why can't Harry do something to test his abilities?
This discussion is based on the idea Jim only shows us plot significant things.
If Harry had blown his head off during Proven Guilty due to a mistake on LC, he never would have been there to stop Nicodemus from taking the Sword, corrupting it, and also gaining the majority of the free-roaming coins in the process.
If Harry had died in PG, though, who would Mab have sent to retrieve Marcone ? I can't see Nicodemus getting hold of Ivy, let alone getting in a position to bargain for Fidelacchius with whoever got it next, without Harry.
I view PG and SmF as two separate stories, in that the actions of PG did not impact the events of SmF beyond the experience themselves. Keep in mind also, that if someone on the White God's team stepped in to fix LC, that would mean that somebody on the Fallen Angel's side would've had to have cheated and damaged LC, and on that, we have absolutely no proof. Uriel says its all about balance, and he can't act before the other side.
So without evidence that the other side cheated, we have no way to argue that somebody working for the White God acted on Little Chicago, even to protect the swords.
It's inconclusive. We know that he/she/it has been willing to allow the Swords to be unmade in the past, but it was always a mortal's decision to do so.
There was just no way it could have survived the fire. And no, the FBI didn’t confiscate it.The important part is what is not said. What is not said is "LC was destroyed..." "LC was removed by [Mab/Lea/JL/elves]" Trust me... I have a couple of decades of working with tweens/teens. They like to play these word games... alot. Given how easy it is to say "LC melted and Harry's precautions kicked in so no supernovae formed." This is on par with removing chekov's gun in act ii. These games consist of throwing out a dot (that doesn't answer the question). The listener makes a connection to a false assumption that they think answers the question they posed.
It was made of (mostly) pewter. The rest was plastic. Harry hadn’t taken steps to make it less destructible (which would have interfered with its function anyway–it was built to be sensitive, not tough). There was just no way it could have survived the fire. And no, the FBI didn’t confiscate it.
Changes is, in many ways, about loss. About encountering it and feeling its pain. That happens to all of us, sooner or later. There’s no avoiding it.
The real question is, how do you pick up the pieces and keep going, afterward.
Another thing to mention, is that even though LC was described as having a massive amount of power in it, that doesn't mean it would explode in a deafening blast, with concussive shock waves and such. The "explosion" could have simply been a massive amount of concentrated fire, enough to flash fire the room and the whole building. Or maybe the power would've come out in a magical method of destruction. Remember Bob said the amount of power he had poured into it was roughly equivalent to the power in his fully charged Force Ring. But it wasn't the same kind of magic. The power he had pumped into it was one of seeking, investigation, discovery and revelation. Not a kinetic asskicking spell. Magic varies based on what type of power you are channeling and to what purpose, so just because the amount of power is equal to a ton of those force rings, doesn't mean it would manifest in the same way. For all we know, the sympathetic link to Chicago made the power dissipate across the links, making all of Chicago slightly warmer for a fraction of a second. Or maybe an odd flash of light, and a mild bang sound happened, something disregarded by the population. Or maybe the fire simply dissipated it, fire is a cleansing force after all, magically speaking.
Remember, just because a powerful spell is disrupted, doesn't mean it blows up. Look at Harry when he destroyed the Great Circle trapping Ivy in Small Favor. He made a point to explain just how much power was in that circle, and how even having just one thing out of place, could level a huge area. Then what did he do? He smashed it with his staff, destroying every aspect of that spell. Did he blow up? Did the spell site blow up? Did Demonreach? No, in fact, nothing negative happened until the very last vestige of the spell structure was destroyed, then the spell broke, and as I recall it was simply a bit of sound and light. That's it. Nothing negative or destructive happened, as evidenced by the fact that Ivy and the Heroes were all still alive, and standing at Ground Zero. And I'd be willing to bet that the Great Circle to keep the Archive restrained, had more juice in it than LC. So if that spell can be destroyed without leveling an island, I think LC can be burned out without leveling a city block.
JB is a lazy writer and doesn't introduce events that don't have a significance. Granted the significance might be character development rather than plot development, but there really isn't much character development in the fact that Harry can be the victim of random accidents, so I doubt that is the case. Now, the accident was the means JB used to prompt the Harry/Murphy conversation, and it's purpose could have been limited to setting up that conversation. However, like Uriel, JB likes to kill two birds with one stone, so I think the accident will have later significance. Specifically, I think Harry will discover the attempted murder was a moment-of-opportunity attack by someone who was present in Chicago for the execution and saw an opportunity to possibly remove Harry as a problem.
First, as indicated by the cop's comments, the accident was far too serious to be a benign attempt to save Harry. Second, there was far too much time between the accident and the phone call and the phone call was far too close to the start of the ritual for anyone to have planned it so precisely. If anyone could accurately predict the exact time that Harry would use LC, it makes far more sense that they would manipulate the timing of the interrupting phone call than trying to delay the use of LC until after the call.
(..)
It's much easier than setting up an accident and hoping it causes a long enough delay to stop Harry from using LC while not injuring Harry too severely.
Lash spent considerable effort to convince Harry not to use LC. If she had known about the specific flaw, her next step would have been to use that as a bargaining chip. Once Harry had proven he was going to use LC at any cost, she would have told him she knew of a specific flaw and warned him that he would never be able to fix it in time to save Molly. She then would have offered to identify the flaw and taught him to fix it, either as part of a bargain (maybe an agreement that he would sit and talk with her for 30 minutes) or as a display of her good will (i.e. making Harry more dependent upon her knowledge). There is no way she has Harry secretly fix it, losing whatever advantage she could have gotten from helping him fix it.
I don't think we do, because the swords have not actually been unmade; how many "oh, sword at risk - ooh, fortuitous rescue before it gets harmed" instances do you need before you start suspecting the WG of poking things here and there to prevent them ever actually being destroyed ?
given Jim's response to being asked would we see Ace from SK again with querying whether we were sure we hadn't, it could as easily have been him and unrelated to the rest of the plot of PG entirely.
I am positing the Gatekeeper foreseeing exactly how the timing of the accident works, in terms of long enough a delay and not injuring Harry too severely, and then going forth and doing what he knows will get the desired result. I think that works whether he's looking at a fixed future, or looking at a set of options and picking the one that does what he wants.
I am wary of any argument based on the logic of how an entity noted even among Fallen for her deceptiveness is going to argue; I can equally well believe, for example, that her arguing against Harry using it but not mentioning the flaw is intended to stop him suspecting her having any knowledge of the flaw when he does find out about it.
Actually Lash wouldn't tell Harry, because he wouldn't have believed her. Harry would have seen her attempt to warn him about the flaw as another ploy to get him to take up the coin.
She also had plenty of time while using the illusions to slow him down.
It still comes down to her being the only being that knew about LC, could fix it and was present.
Mab has already answered the question about her replacement choice if Harry died.
She would recruit Thomas to be her Winter Knight instead...
No Harry isn't dumb, but he is a stubborn idiot especially when he's already made up his mind.
Lash also isn't stupid enough to waste time using illusions to stop Harry when she already knows that it won't work and Harry will do it anyway.
Lash has the ability to completely stop Harry from doing anything see Turn Coat where Nico fully expected Lash to be able to completely neuter Harry.
Making Harry think he's fighting illusions and winning while using his body to fix LC is no harder then making Harry fight illusions.Then why is Harry absolutely amazed when Ivy can simultaneously cast different spells? Using magic requires focus and it's difficult to focus so completely on multiple tasks at once. There is no way Lash could focus on fixing LC and keeping Harry unaware of it and making Harry see illusions despite his active attempts to resist it.
Lash even told Harry he was going to die and the model was going to blow up and Harry didn't care he was going to do it anyway. Even even threatened to do it while she was mucking around with his concentration.Right, and if she knew about the flaw she would have gone that one step further and told him "I'm not guessing, I've seen a flaw and you will die, but I can help you fix it, for a price." Clearly, she wasn't holding back in trying to stop him from using LC, so why would she hold back the one piece of information that would be almost certain to at least make him take a moment to reduce his chance of death?
Lash was able to accelerate Harry's brain, block mental attacks and has advanced magical knowledge that goes back to the begining of time.
Lash even knows the how and why Harry can hurt Outsiders with magic.
Lash actively keeps Harry from finding out what she can and can not do, because every time Harry learns these things its one less effective tool in her tool box.
YLC?
#2 part 2 LC v2.0
If the point of LC was to show that Harry was building thaumaturgy muscle (specifically with theater spanning voodoo dolls) and the logical progression after the first one was destroyed is that he would build a 2nd that is more ambitious, what will v2.0 be like?
I suspect that such a device would somehow be tied to Demonreach. There is good reason to believe that Harry will end up dwelling in the hut by the lighthouse, and that will be where his new lab will be... So I posit that either LCv2.0 will be one of 2 things.
- A portable model of Demonreach that he can carry around and use as a portable link to the benefits of that sanctum.
- A fixed model of something else (the world?) built in a new lab on Demonreach. This diserves some extra bullets
- Harry's new ability to go pretty much anywhere he wants via ways his mother found would certainly help facilitate gathering material for thaumaturgy links for such a model.
- Such a model might have some interesting interactions with Harry's Demoreach Sanctum benefits. Intelectus wherever the model goes?
Well, not entirely true. We know that at least one sword has been reforged, or reshaped. Are we absolutely certain that the Sword itself wasn't destroyed for this to happen?
People often forget Lash knows exactly what Harry will and will not do and the best ways to manipulate him.
It still comes down to her being the only being that knew about LC, could fix it and was present.
The Gatekeeper doesn't fit the bill as shown by Turn Coat he didn't know Harry had taken Demonreach as his Sanctum.
I am seeing a distinction between the being reforged level of remade, and being destroyed by gross misuse such as sacrificing an innocent life, as is threatened in GP; that latter does not seem to be anything anyone involved with sees as being recoverable from. I'm not seeing that a sword being physically melted down and reforged would need to entail any change in or risk to its metaphysical status.
If #1 is correct, then we have the follow up question, why put a mysterious and random attempt to hurt Harry in PG rather than any other book? Here we have 3 possibilities - a) It was an attempt by someone who isn't normally in Chicago, so that was their only opportunity, b) it was specifically designed to try to keep Harry from interfering with the events in PG or c) PG is just as good as any other book for a random, mysterious accident and JB needed an excuse for Harry to talk to Murphy, so it was convenient to use in PG. Notably, it could also be any combination of any of the above.
With #2, we introduce a character whose level of knowledge of future events and ability to manipulate Harry and the future are at least equal to Uriel.
It turns the entire themes of the Dresden Files on its head. Rather than being a story about Harry and free will, it's a story about godlike entities who can control everything Harry does.
And since they all have such perfect knowledge, it isn't even a chess game where one godlike entity might outmaneuver another, because they already know who will win in the end, so it is really just a complex math equation that only has a single proof.
From a Doylist perspective, it adds absolutely nothing to the story. Imagine this scene of events: Gatekeeper warns Harry, Harry drives home and prepares to use LC, just before he finishes using LC, the phone mysteriously rings. Tada, JB could tell the exact same story without ever using an accident. It would have the exact same outcome and provide the exact same mystery (why did the phone ring at that precise moment?). The only benefit JB would get from setting up a complicated superentity plan to delay Harry by the precise amount of time needed is that JB has an opportunity to have Murphy and Harry talk without relying on a "random accident."
That is a heck of a lot of knowledge for a guy that in TC, didn't even realize that Harry had claimed Demonreach as Sanctum and incorrectly predicting that Harry's plan would fail and cause more damage than good.
You think she secretly helps Harry and covers his tracks so he won't be angry that she secretly helped him, thereby insuring that Harry gets the benefit of having the coin without ever realizing the benefits he is receiving?
Instead, she could avoid Harry's anger by providing help, forcing Harry to realize that with her help he can accomplish far more good (saving Molly) than he can without your help. Which is a better lesson for Lasciel "You need help from a mysterious source that wasn't me in order to accomplish your goals" or "I can help you accomplish your goals?"
How do you take a Sword, which has the inherent qualities of Sacrifice (and I think it was Hope, right? I can't remember whether it was Fidellachius or Amorrachius that went through the reformation) and the Crucifixion itself imbued in it- and then not destroy and/or lose any of that while melting or replacing the blade and/or hilt?
Edit: Also, Nicodemus, Lea, and a number of other entities certainly seem to have faith that the Swords can be unmade. It seems much more likely that they got that information from it having already happened somewhere along the line.
This depends on whether the properties are inherent in the material of the entire sword, or are inherent in the nail which could be separately removed (or at least, from Harry's descriptions of Amoracchius in GP, the nail seems to exist as a physically distinct entity rather than being melted down into the substance of the sword.)
Maybe; I'm not seeing it as impossible that they are both fairly familiar with the WG's rules of engagement and have faith in the swords being destroyed if those rules are broken from experience of seeing corresponding rules broken in non-sword situations, though.
It's odd to trust God? I'm pretty sure that's like the whole religion... And the denarian's believe. They know he'll follow the rules.
It's always seemed to me that they're fight is about exploiting his rules. They're on the planet to balance his actions after all. Of course they'd trust the dude that invented physics to follow the laws he set down.
I don't see how you get from "he didn't know about Demonreach" to "he can't have known about LC".
I'd note that the car-bomb in WN is, i think, not confirmed as having anything to do with the plot of that book, so it's not impossible mysterious random killer strikes twice in two adjacent books.
Indeed, we could be Occamian and suspect Uriel of that intervention.Yeah, I've seen the Uriel did it theory passed around. I reject it largely because it doesn't fit Uriel's M.O. of using tools rather direct action and there is also no evidence of a prior cheat. I realize we have differing opinions on Uriel, but I don't think we need to get into those here, because you are arguing for Gatekeeper, not Uriel, and I don't think Gatekeeper has the same level of knowledge as Uriel. Uriel, for example, probably knew about the Sanctum invocation.
Some of us believe it is already that to a large extent; that Harry's free will is all the more significant for being a thing he uses really rather infrequently.There is definitely evidence that greater powers are warring to use Harry as their pawn. The point is, if there are so many powers all try to use them, there ought to at least be competition where they can interfere with each other's plans. If the eventual outcome is already defined and their competing efforts are futile to change it, then it's a math problem, not a story. The difference is, the math equation only has one solution regardless of whether you know it or not, while the ending of a story is subject to change until it is actually written, regardless of how unlikely it might be too change.
Not to be too reductionist here, it is ultimately going to be a series of novels in linear text with only one endpoint, so there are levels at which I do not find that metaphor inapt.
At a telling-a-good-story level, given that Jim has explicitly introduced characters who have the degree of ability to out-think a human angels have, it would seem inconsistent and unconvincing to me for any that are interested in Haryy not to mostly be able to play him much better than he knows or can see coming.
OK, from a meta-story perspective ?
PG seems to me to be notably different from all the preceding books in terms of how standalone it is. A larger proportion of the significant players are people we've met before, and it's the first one where rather than there being a couple of loose ends, the ending is Harry explicitly acknowledging he doesn't have a clue about what was really going on at the centre of events. From an Aristotelian point of view, the eight book of planned twenty-plus-three is the transition between Beginning and Middle, and the differences I mention above fit with that. So if there was going to be a book for which "here is a random snippet of arc plot that could technically fit anywhere" was appropriate, PG seems like the best one to me.
I'm inclined to think, considering how on-the-ball and well informed Rashid is in SK, that there's something specifically about Demonreach that is throwing him off in TC, rather than that TC is a reasonable standard for judging his degree of clued-in in general. And he has specified he will not set foot on the island.
Indeed. If the object of the exercise is to corrupt Harry's judgement without him knowing it - as witness the anger issues Murphy calls him on in WN, which are already showing in PG (where he concentrates on roasting the Giger-Alien fetch rather than stopping to help one of its victims, whom he then realises he might have been able to save if he'd acted differently). It fits that pattern.
The latter only works if she assumes Harry will be dispassionately rational about accepting her help, which he won't, because a) he has a pretty strong conviction that accepting help from Fallen will have long-term bad effects, and b) given a), Harry being Harry is going to be extreme ends of stubborn about it.
TWG. And yes, I don't think that they're going to give him carte-blanche on any set of "rules" he lays out. If they were going to do that, they'd have simply followed him instead of becoming what they are today.
It's always seemed to me that they're fight is about exploiting his rules. They're on the planet to balance his actions after all.
After we've had Uriel, who supposedly conned the father of lies? Jim has openly stated that in the DV, Heaven is not above using evil to their own ends. Nicodemus and his crew know better than to trust what they're being told by the other side of the conflict. That's just common sense.
It depends on whether you see trusting Heaven's overall moral objectives and trusting Heaven's strategic approaches as the same thing. Uriel may have conned the Father of Lies, but unless he's running a long con on Harry and all the supposedly clued-in Church and related people Harry interacts with (which i am entirely prepared to believe), he is bound by rules of engagement.
Gatekeeper would need to know a lot more than just the existence of LC to set up the accident-delay plan.
Here's another problem with the accident-as-delay theory. Why didn't Harry's benefactor cause the accident and then immediately go fix LC?
Do we really think the Gatekeeper can secretly access Harry's apartment and fix LC but that he can't find a way to do it while Bob/Mouse are there?
I realize we have differing opinions on Uriel, but I don't think we need to get into those here, because you are arguing for Gatekeeper, not Uriel, and I don't think Gatekeeper has the same level of knowledge as Uriel. Uriel, for example, probably knew about the Sanctum invocation.
There is definitely evidence that greater powers are warring to use Harry as their pawn. The point is, if there are so many powers all try to use them, there ought to at least be competition where they can interfere with each other's plans.
If the eventual outcome is already defined and their competing efforts are futile to change it, then it's a math problem, not a story. The difference is, the math equation only has one solution regardless of whether you know it or not, while the ending of a story is subject to change until it is actually written, regardless of how unlikely it might be too change.
Also, Harry might use his free will infrequently, but the case books are the situations where he is using free will,
so those are the situations where a person can't rely on a complicated accident-delay plan when simpler methods are available.
They control Harry by predicting his emotional responses. Less emotional choices like "Do I call a cab, ask Murphy for a ride, walk, etc...." are harder to predict and can't be relied upon in setting up a plan.
That's a good rebuttal theory. However, if Demonreach can put a blind spot in Gatekeeper's knowledge, I would think some of the other players in PG could do the same.
How exactly does secretly fixing LC corrupt Harry's judgment without Harry realizing it?
Secretly fixing it doesn't given Harry any reason to seek Lash's help in the future.
In other words, Harry's need to help Molly is the precise type of moment when he is most susceptible to temptation. If Lasciel had any bargaining chip to play in that situation (knowledge of the flaw) she would have played it.
Then why has Uriel been taking actions that deliberately break the "rules of engagement" in order to "keep the balance", as he suggested he's been doing with Harry?
No argument there.
I would argue that everything you list can be answered by him looking at the future for the information in question. He doesn't have to insure the accident causes the right amount of damage if he can look at the accident, see how much damage it causes, and direct harry into the situation accordingly.
Not causing a paradox because of seeing that that's the way things worked out ?
Considering the sort of power levels Mouse is showing in later books, I can well see Rashid erring on the side of caution with regard to Mouse's presence.
For what it's worth, I think the most likely explanation for who actually fixed LC is somebody persuading or magically compelling Murphy or Thomas to use their keys to get through Harry's wards; I can see either Murphy or Thomas being persuadable on "if LC is not fixed harry will kill himself with it" grounds, but it takes Rashid or someone who is getting information from someone with at least Rashid levels of foreknowledge to know there's an issue in the first place.
Oh, I am sure there is. I'm less sure that the consequences of that competition will ever be unambiguously overt.The point is, if Harry's benefactor was depending on the accident to cause the perfect amount of delay, that plan leaves a lot of wiggle room for something to go wrong. Given there are multiple very powerful entities that might use that time to ruin the plan, it is far too risky for someone to use the accident as a delay mechanism, and if the benefactor could be certain the plan couldn't be ruined even by his peers, then there is no competition at all, because the outcome is inevitable.
I'm not sure I'm buying that one; the end of a game of solitaire is a maths problem if you have perfect knowledge of where all the cards are, but it can still generate dramatic tension along the way, and given that we're getting the story through Harry, I can get quite enough tension out of Harry not knowing where things are going in the end regardless of whether Uriel does actually know to the last decimal place or not.Unlike a math proof, solitaire has multiple different outcomes depending on how the game is played. It's possible none of them will result in victory or for there to be different paths to victory.
You keep talking about the putative plan here as if it were "set all these factors going that will interact in complicated unpredictable ways", and that is not what I am suggesting it is, which makes me feel like we are talking past each other. I am talking about a situation where the Gatekeeper as seen that if he does certain things Harry will, with absolute certainty, end up in the right place at the right time. Zero possibility of error. It looks fluid to Harry because from his perspective it's the future, but the Gatekeeper can see a point at which it has already happened, and is therefore, given the right start conditions, one hundred per cent reliable.
I'd argue that they can be if you can look into the future and see in advance what value those variables have.
No argument there, but I'm not seeing evidence for any other such player doing so in PG.
Easing him into using something really rather powerful without the degree of thinking through its dangers than he otherwise might ?If that was the goal she could have not revealed how dangerous she was by threatening him with illusions. She would have been better served just to let him use it with nothing more than a quick plea and offer to help protect him if he picks up the coin.
Which is why it makes sense to me that Lash would do it in PG, after being confronted in DB with precisely how stubborn Harry is and what extremes it takes to get him to ask her help, and as an element in the same strategy of corruption involved in his anger-management issues in pg and WN, which also do not involve him asking for her help.
Again, I flat-out do not believe that assertion. She tried that strategy in DB with innocent lives at risk and saw the limits to how much it would work.
I think I'm seeing the rules of engagement at a different scale from what I may have come across as meaning, then, and I am sorry I was unclear.
I do not think Uriel is breaking any rules of engagement, ever. I think Uriel is quite clear about being permitted equal and opposite interventions to some specific class of actions from the Fallen - I don't think that's breaking any rule, I think it is a rule. And rather a specific one, down to the level of seven words for seven words. I also think it's clear that if Uriel ever did break the rules under which it is allowed to work, it would Fall.
No need to apologize, Neuro, I took no offense. I do think on a different wavelength than most other people seem to, which is probably why the miscommunication happened.
To me, it looks as though Uriel is allowed to commit actions that it would normally not be able to if, and only if, the other side did it first. As we haven't really had a good look at what determines the actions it may take in response, I can't conclude that Uriel hasn't broken a rule of engagement in response to another broken rule. It may be that TWG allows it to "break" or "bend" the rules under very specific circumstances- but to me, doing something it otherwise would not be enabled to do, in response to a stimulus from the other side, is still a bent rule.
It also helps to clarify what Nicodemus meant when he spoke about the Church having excellent propaganda. Consider Sanya, for example- Heaven allowed him to pick up a coin, in order to make him a Knight later on down the line. They let him run around with Magog's brute strength and the knowledge of a Fallen Angel, doing no small amount of harm to the other humans/creatures running around the planet, in exchange for what he would do as a Knight of the Cross.
Heaven not being above using evil to their own ends means that the "White" part of TWG's title has a bit of a scuff on it. Do I think the Denarians are going to use the actions of their counterparts in Heaven as "proof" that they are just as corrupt, or possibly worse in nature, to justify their own actions? Absolutely. Two wrongs very rarely, if at all, equal a right. So in order to "right" the other side's "wrongs", the lies, betrayal, stealing, loss of life, bending or breaking of Will, etc... well, you get the point, I think.
Their "trusting" TWG, or it's agents, to hold to their "word" just doesn't fit with what we've heard from Nicodemus, Lash, or even with what we've seen with regards to a current Knight.
To me, it looks as though Uriel is allowed to commit actions that it would normally not be able to if, and only if, the other side did it first.
As we haven't really had a good look at what determines the actions it may take in response, I can't conclude that Uriel hasn't broken a rule of engagement in response to another broken rule. It may be that TWG allows it to "break" or "bend" the rules under very specific circumstances- but to me, doing something it otherwise would not be enabled to do, in response to a stimulus from the other side, is still a bent rule.
Consider Sanya, for example- Heaven allowed him to pick up a coin, in order to make him a Knight later on down the line. They let him run around with Magog's brute strength and the knowledge of a Fallen Angel, doing no small amount of harm to the other humans/creatures running around the planet, in exchange for what he would do as a Knight of the Cross.
Do I think the Denarians are going to use the actions of their counterparts in Heaven as "proof" that they are just as corrupt, or possibly worse in nature, to justify their own actions? Absolutely. Two wrongs very rarely, if at all, equal a right. So in order to "right" the other side's "wrongs", the lies, betrayal, stealing, loss of life, bending or breaking of Will, etc... well, you get the point, I think.
Fair enough then; to my mind, a rule that works on a basis of "if any of these other rules are broken you are permitted a precisely defined action in response corresponding exactly to the scale of the infraction" would count as legitimising any such actions, and meaning that no rules are broken or bent in taking them. (I am inclined to see the rules under which non-free-willed, or differently free-willed - as per the best interpretation of combined WoJ and textev on DV angels appearing to be that they have classic Catholic dogma values of angelic free will, viz. one Choice and one only, to fall or not to Fall, so for practical and tactical purposes non-free-willed - beings operated as having a degree of commonality, and therefore, the was in which the non-free-willed Accord signatories operate as being potentially useful information in re how Uriel may deal with the rules under which it operates; I don't see operating within the letter of the rules to whatever the best available outcome is, while disregarding the spirit, as bending them (hacking them perhaps) because the concept of "spirit of the rules" seems inapplicable in this context.)
That's an interesting take on it. Taken at face value, I would posit that Uriel's avowed position on free will would be such that Heaven could neither intervene with Sanya choosing to take up a coin nor choosing to set one down again; I would find the idea of that being a long con rather appealing, save that I think we have WoJs indicating that we are meant to take Heaven at face value in the whole free will thing.
That argument is however predicated on the underlying assumption that each side is equally entitled to differing opinions; if one side gets to define what is right and what is wrong at a universal scale, it seems that the other might have a harder time of arguing against it than in a difference of opinion among humans.
I don't get the impression it's possible within the DV for the WG to, tomorrow, announce that murder is henceforward right and no longer evil, for example. If one were to posit that as possible or even likely, it would certainly throw the consistency of Heaven's following its own rules in other areas into question.
The only way a coin can be taken up is through Free Will,
meaning Sanya made the choice. Was he influenced? Absolutely, but he made the choice freely. At that point in Sanya's timeline, I don't think they (The White God/Knights of the Cross) planned anything regarding him except maybe an eventual death. When Shiro came along, after Sanya realized what was happening, they saw an opportunity because he had previously freely given up the coin to become a Knight, which he then again, chose freely. I don't feel that was a long con or a drawn up fate waiting specifically for Sanya, but the combined consequences of all of his freely made choices and actions.
Was he influenced? Absolutely, but he made the choice freely.
That strikes me as containing a contradiction in terms.Only if you don't believe in free will. If I teach someone a specific moral code and they follow it it's still their choice. Where do you see the contradiction? Because influence is impossible to avoid.
Only if you don't believe in free will. If I teach someone a specific moral code and they follow it it's still their choice.
There is a logical fallacy here. Part of your argument depends on the future being fixed and part of it depends on the future being changeable. If the future can be changed such that Gatekeeper can prevent Harry from using LC at the wrong time, then Gatekeeper can't look in the future and see exactly how much damage occurred from the accident, because that future could also be changed.
The point is, if Harry's benefactor was depending on the accident to cause the perfect amount of delay, that plan leaves a lot of wiggle room for something to go wrong. Given there are multiple very powerful entities that might use that time to ruin the plan, it is far too risky for someone to use the accident as a delay mechanism, and if the benefactor could be certain the plan couldn't be ruined even by his peers, then there is no competition at all, because the outcome is inevitable.
Unlike a math proof, solitaire has multiple different outcomes depending on how the game is played. It's possible none of them will result in victory or for there to be different paths to victory.
It isn't possible for Gatekeeper to look into the future and know with zero possibility of error what will happen. Such knowledge would require either that the future is unchangeable (which would mean he couldn't change the future to save Harry in the first place)
The mere possibility that another player might act to ruin his plan would prevent him from using a plan that leaves so much time for someone else to step in and interfere.
If that was the goal she could have not revealed how dangerous she was by threatening him with illusions. She would have been better served just to let him use it with nothing more than a quick plea and offer to help protect him if he picks up the coin.
So she tries a strategy, gives up on it when an even better opportunity arises, then returns to the same strategy (in WN) she previously abandoned? I doubt it.
Lasciel plays long-term. She'll apply the pressure every time an opportunity arises until eventually a situation arises where Harry will take the bait.
Not if what the Gatekeeper is seeing is a finite set of possible futures, from which he can select one by an exercise of his free will, but which, once selected, are then deterministic absent other acts of free will. Which is a model that I think fits as well with what we know about time travel, and from Uriel about most humans using free will rather rarely, as any other.
How many of those very powerful entities have free will, though ? In the precise significant sense that humans have it, rather than the "I do what I am supposed to or I become Lucifer the Second" sense that Uriel does
And all of those outcomes are deducible from a full knowledge of the state of all the cards at the beginning of the game plus sufficient intelligence.
If information from the future were changeable to that extent, why all the careful working around the possibility of paradox ?
Your logic there feels to be skipping over some steps in the assessment.
Perhaps.
Perhaps, alternatively, Lash is thinking the same way I read Mab as thinking at the end of GS; that the best way to lull Harry into a false sense of security, and to successfully manipulate him longer term, is to give the impression of trying to manipulate him in some less subtle way and failing.
I am sorry, i am totally failing to parse how you derive that from my suggestion. Could you expand on your logic here.
Will she ? Or will applying pressure every time only incline him to balk whenever she suggests anything at all ?
That's not time travel then. He's not going against the flow of time and he's not changing the past, he's just guiding the future.
The problem of course is then the Gatekeeper practically becomes the master of time and the single most powerful individual in the entire universe.
It's not even a competition, now, Gatekeeper can wipe the floor with Uriel, Mab, Ferrovax, Drakul.
Yes, but you don't know which result you will get. x - 2 - 2 = 0 always results in x = 4, no matter what order you perform the steps, the outcome of solitaire however, is not predetermined, only the possible outcomes are.
Precisely because the future is changeable. If it wasn't changeable paradox would be impossible and it would never be a concern.
Basically, let's call the accident as a means of delay as plan A. There was a lot of intervening time between the accident and the use of LC, which leaves a lot of time for someone else to screw up the plan. I think any entity savy enough to design plan A would also be able to design plans B - Z (one of which is manipulating the time of Molly's phone call). Plans B - Z would all have less intervening time, increasing the odds of the plan being successful because other entities would have less of an opportunity to interfere.
I would accept that if PG had just been written. However, hindsight and WoJ clearly indicate that Lash actually changed,
Interestingly, I notice that I am arguing against both Gatekeeper and Lash as the entity that fixed LC. It would seem likely either you don't think Gatekeeper arranged the accident or that you don't think Lash knew about the flaw in LC. Of course, the two arguments aren't necessarily inconsistent (Lash could have known about the flaw but Gatekeeper fixed it), but it does make me wonder if you actually believe everything you are arguing.
Also, one other thought. WoJ tells us it would take the whole White Council to defeat Mab outside of Winter. Rashid is a member of the White Council. We've also seen some of the other members of the Wouncil are very powerful. Thus, we can infer Rashid isn't nearly as powerful as Mab and by extension isn't nearly as powerful as her peer, Uriel. Since it would take a creature with the knowledge level of Uriel to enact plan A, and since Rashid is not as powerful as Uriel, I believe it is unlikely that he could have so perfectly set up the crash.
As for being a Chekhov's Gun loaded with ammo I think it's still yet to see it's biggest firing. I firmly suspect the climax of little Chicago will be Harry going needing to use LC and going back in time maybe not only to use it but maybe for another reason, and fixing it and using it. This would cover the issue people have with so much buildup and not bang.
In this case Mab becomes all that much more likely as the fixer.
Pure rambling theory based on the thread:
Book 17: Rabbit Hole
Stranded and imprisoned in time by the betrayal of his closest allies, Harry Dresden, has been searching for an escape route for over a year. His only hope for salvation rests with the most unlikely of solutions. Now he is trapped at 1/22nd of his natural size and stranded back in time inside of Little Chicago -- the experiment he had cast off and though abandoned years ago. But he is not alone -- something stalks the streets of Little Chicago -- and Harry will have to delve deeper into its mysteries before escaping the Rabbit Hole.
Pure rambling theory based on the thread:
Book 17: Rabbit Hole
Stranded and imprisoned in time by the betrayal of his closest allies, Harry Dresden, has been searching for an escape route for over a year. His only hope for salvation rests with the most unlikely of solutions. Now he is trapped at 1/22nd of his natural size and stranded back in time inside of Little Chicago -- the experiment he had cast off and though abandoned years ago. But he is not alone -- something stalks the streets of Little Chicago -- and Harry will have to delve deeper into its mysteries before escaping the Rabbit Hole.
Sorry for breaking the naming convention. Rabbits Warrens just didn't have the same ring to it. I do think that there is a chance that Harry has to get transported back in time into LC. I tried to emulate the writing style of the Penguin blurb summarizers...
Sorry for breaking the naming convention. Rabbits Warrens just didn't have the same ring to it. I do think that there is a chance that Harry has to get transported back in time into LC. I tried to emulate the writing style of the Penguin blurb summarizers...
No real theory on the why, but as far as I see it, LC could easily be undamaged. It was in the subbasement, which might be a bit sturdier and the whole lab might have survived. But that isn't the biggest clue to it. The biggest clue is, that Marcone built a friggin' castle on top of it. If Gard has figured out how to use LC, or if he has found other gifted individuals, he might use it to track down the Fomor's movements, or any other supernatural actions in Chicago. Or whatever the hell he can figure out to do with it. He is pretty intelligent in that regard, I think.
@knnn
Those are copyrighted. Mouse Traps was short story whose author escapes me. The Maze Rats were a faction in AEG's Doomtown game.
Those are copyrighted. Mouse Traps was short story whose author escapes me. The Maze Rats were a faction in AEG's Doomtown game.
haven't seen anything on this so, little chicago had atl 300× the energy of a kinetic ring, why didn't it blow sky high in the fire? the spells around the lab would have been eaten away first and i'm pretty sure even on fire that much energy wouldn't just dissapate, its pure energy. so either the lab survived or someone snatched it (lea). i say it survived an i can think of why too. harry made it during the theoretical time travel era. using its connection to how chicago was BACK THEN harry will use it as a springboard/focus to leap backwards to that time frame al la' thaumaturgy.
god i'm awesome when i'm tired 8)
haven't seen anything on this so, little chicago had atl 300× the energy of a kinetic ring, why didn't it blow sky high in the fire? the spells around the lab would have been eaten away first and i'm pretty sure even on fire that much energy wouldn't just dissapate, its pure energy. so either the lab survived or someone snatched it (lea). i say it survived an i can think of why too. harry made it during the theoretical time travel era. using its connection to how chicago was BACK THEN harry will use it as a springboard/focus to leap backwards to that time frame al la' thaumaturgy.
god i'm awesome when i'm tired 8)
4. Harry walking around as just a Soul in GS was like a person walking around naked -- so is the soul more important that the physical body? You can exist as a soul, you don't need a physical body (in theory)?
"My own flesh dissolved into flickering silver light, and I felt myself rush after the energy of the seeking spell, streaking through the ghostly images of Chicago's nightlife in the model all around me, one more insubstantial shade among thousands.
*not that I think it's likely or anything.
- I still haven't completely* ruled out the idea that whoever fixed LC saved it before the burndown in Changes (see #2)
The origional YLC thread (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,33984.0.html)
In brief, for the amount of buildup that was put into YLC, as a potential "Chekov's gun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun)" (tvtrops warning) it sure didn't have much of a proportionate bang.
So my new thought was born from thinking about this recent comment from Tami Seven
Which made me wonder if Harry would, in the future find it advantageous to put his GS experiences to work by wandering around Chicago disembodied like he did in GS. And then I remembered. Harry's already done that! He tracked Malvora in White Night in disembodied form via Little Chicago.
So what could this mean for the YLC question? Possible answers would run like...
- Harry's experiences with LC helped prep his soul for his GS experience
- Harry's GS experiences helped him gain a new paradigm that would allow him to utilize a new LC like spell/foci more effectively
- I still haven't completely* ruled out the idea that whoever fixed LC saved it before the burndown in Changes (see #2)
- Maybe we'll come up with more
*not that I think it's likely or anything.
I don't buy that every type of an out of body experience is separating soul from body. Otherwise we'd have to include things like the talking stones that he and Eb have.
Oh god, why am I imagining a terrible ritual involving the stone slab, and little chicago as a catalyst/foci now?
But Harry was able to do the same thing to the ghost, and we're as sure as we can be that that was just a regular old ghost, nothing souly about it.
Since the Nightmare was able to steal some of Harry's powers, I'd say that was more in line with the soul instead of just his 'ghost'. The repository of power should be in the soul or the body, not that residual essence that makes up a 'ghost' like we saw in GS.
But Harry was able to do the same thing to the ghost, and we're as sure as we can be that that was just a regular old ghost, nothing souly about it.
Hey Lea has done crazier things in her time, and she had the ability/entrance too.
Oh god, why am I imagining a terrible ritual involving the stone slab, and little chicago as a catalyst/foci now?
Interviewer: And Harry’s lost all of his stuff – even his mini model of Chicago!
Jim: Yeah, it all burned up in his apartment.]Interviewer: And Harry’s lost all of his stuff – even his mini model of Chicago!
Jim: Yeah, it all burned up in his apartment.
I can remember a WoJ where someone asked if Harry's new summoning ring and Little Chicago and stuff were destroyed in the fire in Changes and Jim said something that left a little wiggle room like, "Everything in the appartment was burnt down. Fire destroys magical properties, and I wanted to take pretty much everything from Harry in that book" (that might be a few other seperate WoJ's thrown together).
The point is, there was a little bit of wiggle room in that, in that maybe LC wasn't in the appt when it burnt down. However, this WoJ was released onto the interwebs earlier this week and it leaves much less wiggle room WRT LC.
Interviewer: And Harry’s lost all of his stuff – even his mini model of Chicago!
Jim: Yeah, it all burned up in his apartment. (http://Interviewer: And Harry’s lost all of his stuff – even his mini model of Chicago!
Jim: Yeah, it all burned up in his apartment.)