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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: MacPhoenix on January 21, 2014, 08:11:06 AM

Title: Bad Guys
Post by: MacPhoenix on January 21, 2014, 08:11:06 AM
To all writers; amateur - pros. How does one nightmare up the, "The being who would be Emperor" in one's own little yarn?

P.S . This is a beginner's outreach for guidance. Go easy.

P.P.S. First blog/forum as well.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: hallowedthings on January 21, 2014, 09:17:42 PM
Care to expand a bit? :P

I'm not really sure what you mean by the being who would be emperor. Do you mean it in a general sense (something that's going to rise and rule) or are you referring to a specific trope? (Googled it but couldn't find anything) xD
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on January 21, 2014, 09:45:38 PM
One way is to make them absolutely and utterly convinced that they are right and working for a good end.

Another is to make them alien enough that they can sincerely believe something utterly appalling and regard your heroes being more conventionally heroic as an appalling thing in turn.

Example off the top of my head; think of fish, laying thousands of eggs and relying on statistics to have enough survive to the next generation.  Imagine fish becoming sentient, and getting technology enough to have communities and drive off predators and so on.  If they're to survive without population explosion and starvation, they'll have to take over culling the vast majority of their offspring themselves.  So you end up with your fish emperor absolutely unshakable in a belief that they know to their core is right, that it's your moral duty to kill most of your children.  Humans who have relatively few children and take care of them will seem utterly vile, disgusting and depraved to that fish emperor.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: MacPhoenix on January 22, 2014, 04:18:20 AM
I was just using the emperor reference
to point out the creation of a great villain for a story.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: MacPhoenix on January 22, 2014, 04:28:37 AM
Thank you neurovore for your reply that was helpful.
I didn't really know where to start off even creating a villain.
All I brought forth was just an antithesis to my hero, but that does not
give a villain his/her/its black soul. 
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: Paynesgrey on January 22, 2014, 03:32:04 PM
That alone becomes a matter of taste or style.  A villain with a black soul is simple enough... Profound Narcisisstic Personality Disorder + Unrestricted Power, and you've got Joe Stalin or any of a number of other historical monsters for models.  And a truely loathsome villain has a great deal of story potential, if that's what you really have your heart set on.

But as Neuro pointed out, a villain who thinks they're serving a greater good has a great deal more potential in terms of engaging the reader.  They're more difficult to pull off, but usually more rewarding.  Fidelus from the Codex Alera books is a fine example.  Vic Mackee from the Shield... you alternately want to buy him a beer, and give him two shots behind the ear when he turns around and does something bastardly. 

A villain who's downright likable created a greater emotional impact when they do something that's shitty, but in character.  You can up the reader's emotional investment in his decisions... "Please don't do that, please, please, OH YOU BASTARD!"

A weak-willed antagonist is another possibility.  Londo Mollari from Babylon 5... You could really sympathize with him, get to like him even... so when he would choose selfishly despite his conscience, it had a greater impact on the viewer than "a bastard being a bastard" because he wasn't just screwing people over, he was throwing away his own potential. 
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: OZ on January 22, 2014, 04:48:09 PM
A good way to create your villain is to try to create the story (for yourself, it doesn't have to be the story you want to publish) from the villain's point of view. Why are they the way they are? Are they crazy? Did horrific things happen to them as a child? Did they want to do right but were overcome by rage, despair, jealousy, etc. Were they (as Neuro said so well) raised in ways that we would find monstrous but to them are normal (for humans this is sometimes found in the idea of complete entitlement by those of wealth or nobility. It can also be found by those that feel that the rules only apply to those of wealth or nobility.) Do they have a goal that is simply different from that of the protagonist? The idea of the good of the many vs the good of the few (for example) can be spun from either side to create a story where both sides are striving for what they believe is right.
  If your villiain has no story, no reason for his or her actions, then they just become a two dimensional caricature. Realizing that the villain has a perspective beyond serving as a foil for the hero often opens the story up and helps it move forward.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on January 22, 2014, 06:28:17 PM
That alone becomes a matter of taste or style.  A villain with a black soul is simple enough... Profound Narcisisstic Personality Disorder + Unrestricted Power, and you've got Joe Stalin or any of a number of other historical monsters for models.

One thing worth noting, that I think a lot of writers recoil from on first consideration for fear of it looking like a shallow moustache-twirling caricature and then don't go back to later on, is that real-world narcissists quite often don't identify as the heroes of their own lives from their own perspectives, but consciously choose to be villains to demonstrate their perceived superiority over everyone else; I've known a couple in passing (ye shall know them by their trail of devastated relatives, former romantic partners and friends many of whom had been beguiled into thinking they were the specific person who could make a positive difference) and that's a mindset I can totally see lasting for a villain with capacity to do harm at a larger scale.

That's not the only defined personality disorder that makes for a good villain, though.  The DSM is a very useful research resource.  For example, in Homestuck (potential spoilers for characters introduced in Act 5 which you might not want if you have not read Homestuck but plan to)
(click to show/hide)

Quote
A villain who's downright likable created a greater emotional impact when they do something that's shitty, but in character.

Agreed, consistency and coherency of character is everything; villains and heroes alike work better if they have flaws that fit with their virtues and virtues that fit with their flaws.

Quote
A weak-willed antagonist is another possibility.  Londo Mollari from Babylon 5... You could really sympathize with him, get to like him even... so when he would choose selfishly despite his conscience, it had a greater impact on the viewer than "a bastard being a bastard" because he wasn't just screwing people over, he was throwing away his own potential.

Londo's arc over the whole series is a wonderful example of carefully controlling audience sympathy across a range of different degrees of sympathetic, and all the more impressive considering how many extra-textual factors forced JMS to adapt his story into a shape that wasn't the original plan.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: Ulfgeir on January 22, 2014, 08:07:46 PM
And if you have villains who are doing things just to be villains (and they know that they are the villains), then make sure they are right bastards, and ham it up.  A good example would be Mr Croup & Mr Vandermar from Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere.

Depending on the setting, certain types of indivuduals will be more suited to be villains. For example in a cyberpunk-setting, you would expect people to be like a caricature of Donald Trump or the Borgias (amoral, greedy, powerful). But also remember, that who the villain is depends on your viewpoint. So in the same setting you might have agitators working as terrorists that threaten the utopia vs the greedy members of the illuminati that runs the world... Make sure they are consistant though.

/Ulfgeir
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: The Deposed King on January 23, 2014, 01:24:49 AM

---snip---

Londo's arc over the whole series is a wonderful example of carefully controlling audience sympathy across a range of different degrees of sympathetic, and all the more impressive considering how many extra-textual factors forced JMS to adapt his story into a shape that wasn't the original plan.

I think Londo is one of those characters who's will power, sympathetic nature (or not) and motivations could be argued over for at least a half hour.

I mean at heart he was a patriot of the Centauri Republic with a 'dream' of his people returning to their former place in galactic society.  He wanted to view himself as a 'good' person, especially in the beginning.  But two factors were always in the way.  His patriotism for the Centauri Republic and the modus operandi of the Centauri Republic which was crawl over the corpses of your internal enemies to get to the top.

So when the rubber hit the road and it was, Do what he knew was the Right Thing or Do the Right Thing (at the time) for the Centauri Republic and his position within said Republic.  Or do the Right Thing or Help Maintain his Position or even advance it within the Centauri Republic...

On the other hand he was willing to Sacrifice just about anyone and anything including a massive betrayal of the Shadows (which no one else in their right mind was willing to contemplate because they'd wind up dead) he didn't even blink.

He was in short a Patriot and like many or even most Patriot Fighters the lengths to which he was willing to go...

The rest of the time he was a typical politician or diplomat, do the best he could and claim as much credit as possible.  Or do what was right and keep anyone from knowing because it would hurt his credentials.  But whenever it came down to helping others or the Centauri Republic he kicked everyone else to the curb.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: MacPhoenix on January 23, 2014, 02:49:14 AM
Agreed, consistency and coherency of character is everything; villains and heroes alike work better if they have flaws that fit with their virtues and virtues that fit with their flaws.

I  think I see what you mean. Correct me if I have missed it. For example, Artemis Entreri from R. A. Salvatore's novels never had real relationships in any meaningful way so he becomes self reliable. However, he beholds other's relationships as weakness to be exploited.


This is great people keep it coming   :D
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: Paynesgrey on January 23, 2014, 03:36:21 AM
I really need to do a proper rewatch of B-5.  A fine example of layered story-telling.  Subtle themes and arcs, running along withing and below the surface.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on January 23, 2014, 06:07:53 PM
And if you have villains who are doing things just to be villains (and they know that they are the villains), then make sure they are right bastards, and ham it up.  A good example would be Mr Croup & Mr Vandermar from Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere.

I think they're a bit too self-aware and moustache-twirling to work, actually.  Real right bastards who know they are and glory in it come out more like, oh, Subby and Goss in China Mieville's Kraken.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on January 23, 2014, 06:10:09 PM
I  think I see what you mean. Correct me if I have missed it. For example, Artemis Entreri from R. A. Salvatore's novels never had real relationships in any meaningful way so he becomes self reliable. However, he beholds other's relationships as weakness to be exploited.

I don't know the book in question but that description sounds like a good example of what i had in mind.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: MacPhoenix on January 23, 2014, 09:34:30 PM
So you all would say the real issue with villains is not so much originality as there ability to affect the audience's emotions?
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: The Deposed King on January 24, 2014, 01:57:11 AM
So you all would say the real issue with villains is not so much originality as there ability to affect the audience's emotions?

You don't have to have every character be a unique and special butterfly.  On the other hand your Villain needs to have his own quirks that make him different.  Most of the time so long as your bad guy has a good reason for what he's doing and enough perceived power to pull it off, most people will go with it.

I will say that a random mugger can be a one dimensional bad guy and the audience will be happy to see him go down but your ultimate bad guy or even just this book's bad guy needs to be a little more solid.

As for Villain's affecting the audience's emotions, he can be a highly developed character or just someone we can get a good mad on or root for the MC to defeat.  The main thing is really the MC and his struggles.  A great villain can be a great addition.  But look at the Blade movies.  How much are you really effecting the audience with teh bad guys and how much more are you effecting things with Blade!

I don't go and watch the hobbit to root against Smaug or the Goblins, so much as to root for the hero against these evil foes!


The Deposed King
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: Paynesgrey on January 24, 2014, 02:01:46 AM
And then there's that creepy S.O.B. from "No Country For Old Men"...
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on January 24, 2014, 03:20:18 AM
And then there's that creepy S.O.B. from "No Country For Old Men"...

I parsed him as halfway between personification of Death rather and villain, which is an interesting combination.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: MacPhoenix on January 24, 2014, 04:28:42 AM
I don't go and watch the hobbit to root against Smaug or the Goblins, so much as to root for the hero against these evil foes!
The Deposed King

I agree. It is just so easy for me when writing to pour my soul fire into the mc leaving nothing for an antagonist. It is a mental gear I believe these discussions have put me on the path to discovering.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: MacPhoenix on January 24, 2014, 04:32:08 AM
And then there's that creepy S.O.B. from "No Country For Old Men"...

I did not see that one any good? Death/ Villain combo sounds like the Hindu goddess kali.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: Orbweaver on January 25, 2014, 07:40:51 AM
The reasoning behind your evil villain (their motivations, their past, and the environment surrounding them) is what is most important, when considering where to take their actions and how to have them grow as a character.

For instance, my primary villain is committing heinous crime after heinous crime, twisting the subconscious nightmares of her victims into real entities that attack, kill, devour, etc. human beings in the conscious world. Yet in doing so, she's actually helping to push back something worse: a threat that would quite literally cause the End of Everything if she were not taking the actions she does throughout the story. The main character, or 'hero', then has to decide whether the considerable amount of 'help' this is affording to that end is worth the disaster in the meantime, and try to find an alternate method of doing things that won't result in everything being returned to nothingness.

My advice is this: the best Villains, and it is just my opinion, take actions that serve to set up a series of choices, which ultimately cause your good guy to be conflicted about what to do next. They're there to challenge the protagonist, to try to make them see things a different way, even if that way is absolutely terrifying or nauseating in terms of morality.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: Wordmaker on January 28, 2014, 02:55:42 PM
How I'd answer this question really depends on the kind of book you want to write. How complex is the morality? How mature is your target audience?

At the core, though, some points to remember are that no villain worthy of the name ever considers themself to be the villain. There's got to be something that happened to them, that makes them see their actions as justified, or at least excusable. Villains who are pure evil, or utterly insane, should be exceptionally rare.

Another point is that the best heroes represent some dark mirror of the hero's aspects. They embody something the hero is capable of, proud of, or holds dear, but twisted into a warped, rotten distortion.

Finally, and this is just based on my own writing experience, readers want to love and hate the villain in equal measure. As much as they want to see the villain defeated, they should have a desire to see the villain do more.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: Quantus on January 28, 2014, 05:43:37 PM
The Short Answer is that a Good Villain is in most respects the same as a Good Protagonist.  Define what his narrative role is going to be: in your case it sounds like he's the Main Antagonist and a Foil to your MC.  Then decide what kind of Villain you want him to be.  ts a vast spectrum, but to me they are usually somewhere between Aberrant to Sympathetic:  on one side are the villains that Neuro mentioned that have no interest in being the hero, while at the other end you have the villains that really have a valid point and legitimately believe they are doing the "right" thing.  Right in the middle you have teh stereotype super-villain that is batshit crazy but thinks he is justified and so will monologue for an hour to convince others of that fact, allowing the hero to escape and foil the dastardly etc etc...


But the Short Answer is never all there is to it...  8)
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: The Deposed King on January 29, 2014, 01:36:24 AM
The Short Answer is that a Good Villain is in most respects the same as a Good Protagonist.  Define what his narrative role is going to be: in your case it sounds like he's the Main Antagonist and a Foil to your MC.  Then decide what kind of Villain you want him to be.  ts a vast spectrum, but to me they are usually somewhere between Aberrant to Sympathetic:  on one side are the villains that Neuro mentioned that have no interest in being the hero, while at the other end you have the villains that really have a valid point and legitimately believe they are doing the "right" thing.  Right in the middle you have teh stereotype super-villain that is batshit crazy but thinks he is justified and so will monologue for an hour to convince others of that fact, allowing the hero to escape and foil the dastardly etc etc...


But the Short Answer is never all there is to it...  8)

Something I've noticed just now is that this list of Villain types totally ignores what is probably the most hated and reviled of all villains to ever grace a book or the main-screen.  Shame on you guys!

What is this dastardly villain type you ask?  I'll tell you.

Its the Beuaracratic Villain, whose main and only interest is following regulations and putting anyone who breaks them, villains sure, but most especially those vigilante heros who they view as a greater threat to society than out and out criminal rule breakers!




The Deposed King
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: MacPhoenix on January 29, 2014, 01:57:29 AM
Something I've noticed just now is that this list of Villain types totally ignores what is probably the most hated and reviled of all villains to ever grace a book or the main-screen.  Shame on you guys!

What is this dastardly villain type you ask?  I'll tell you.

Its the Beuaracratic Villain, whose main and only interest is following regulations and putting anyone who breaks them, villains sure, but most especially those vigilante heros who they view as a greater threat to society than out and out criminal rule breakers!




The Deposed King

Now combined that with one of the others and things get real wanko!
I thank all of you for my education on villainy!
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on January 29, 2014, 04:19:33 PM
Its the Beuaracratic Villain, whose main and only interest is following regulations and putting anyone who breaks them, villains sure, but most especially those vigilante heros who they view as a greater threat to society than out and out criminal rule breakers!

That kind of gets into conflating good/evil with law/chaos as a distinction, IMO.  Heroes who are heroic because they buck the status quo and and antagonists who are villainous because they enforce it are a solid trope, but so are enemies that are monstrous and evil because they are attacking an established order of things that is good and right and heroes who are defined as heroic because they protect and reaffirm those things that are good and right.  (Examples there being the Joker, or most of the outright antagonists in the DF, or the work of Stephen King and the large section of the horror genre influenced by King.)

There's really not all that much out there that does law/chaos without having some preconceptions about good and evil attached to either side.  The original graphic novel of V for Vendetta, much more so than the film, and most of Judge Dredd in the comics; Dredd is interesting because the same writers do him as a consistent character who can be the antagonist to a young rebel who just wants to be free from the oppressive system in one story and saving the city from murderous enemies in the next one. (Don't watch the Stallone movie, don't read the DC or IDW comics; they are travesties.  The Karl Urban movie gets the spirit of the character, and a lot of the original comics are collected; the character took a while to settle so if you want one good sampling of quintessential Dredd I recommend Case Files 5.)
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: LizW65 on January 29, 2014, 04:26:54 PM
For me, creating characters, villainous or otherwise, is a lot like method acting. What does the character want, and how does (s)he go about achieving it? What is (s)he trying to accomplish in each scene? What secrets is (s)he concealing, and from whom? What is the character doing when not actually "on stage"? Keeping these things in mind helps to inform the dialogue and characterization.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: MacPhoenix on January 29, 2014, 05:47:51 PM
I think between The DK, Neuro, and Liz a great villainess has been born.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: The Deposed King on January 30, 2014, 12:01:01 AM
I think between The DK, Neuro, and Liz a great villainess has been born. Get this triangle of dread: romance(imagined with the mc), bureaucracy,  and views all those in the way of said romance as the monstrous evil that challenges the status quo.

Best of luck, MacPhoenix.




The Deposed King
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: OZ on January 30, 2014, 01:25:44 AM
Quote
There's really not all that much out there that does law/chaos without having some preconceptions about good and evil attached to either side.

I think some of the best law/chaos stories out there are Modesitt's Recluce novels. The first handful of stories (most stand alone or are two parts although they all take place in the same world) seem to paint law as good and chaos as evil. He then tells several stories from characters that are involved with chaos that are certainly not evil. He even overlaps a few stories where you see how the protagonist of an earlier story looks from the other side. I don't like everything that Modesitt does but I really liked the contrasting viewpoints in different stories.

In Jonathan L Howard's Johannes Cabal the Necromancer, one of the minor villains is Arthur Trubshaw. He was a clerk at a bank whose life of "licentious proceduralism" was ended when he was shot while demanding that robbers give him a receipt for the money they were stealing. He now resides in Hell and is in charge of admissions. He requires people to fill out reams of paperwork and if they make even the slightest error, he rejects their paperwork and makes them fill it out again. A bureaucratic villain indeed.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on January 30, 2014, 04:43:23 AM
I think some of the best law/chaos stories out there are Modesitt's Recluce novels. The first handful of stories (most stand alone or are two parts although they all take place in the same world) seem to paint law as good and chaos as evil. He then tells several stories from characters that are involved with chaos that are certainly not evil. He even overlaps a few stories where you see how the protagonist of an earlier story looks from the other side. I don't like everything that Modesitt does but I really liked the contrasting viewpoints in different stories.

I have not read those; thanks for the recommendation.

Quote
In Jonathan L Howard's Johannes Cabal the Necromancer, one of the minor villains is Arthur Trubshaw. He was a clerk at a bank whose life of "licentious proceduralism" was ended when he was shot while demanding that robbers give him a receipt for the money they were stealing. He now resides in Hell and is in charge of admissions. He requires people to fill out reams of paperwork and if they make even the slightest error, he rejects their paperwork and makes them fill it out again. A bureaucratic villain indeed.

That one was already on my radar and is on the long list; sounds an interesting way to go, though it also sounds like a riff on various Scribe of Hell notions at least as old as the fallen angel Balberith. (Counting the Egyptian afterlife as bureaucratic in grim and scary ways but not actively villainous ones.)
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: IronFae on January 31, 2014, 05:23:56 PM
The Johannes Cabal books are all fun reads, very enjoyable
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: Paynesgrey on February 01, 2014, 02:57:35 AM
Something that's always fun is to take a character like Aral Vorkosigan or Simon Illyan... and put them on the other side.
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: The Deposed King on February 01, 2014, 09:59:38 AM
Something that's always fun is to take a character like Aral Vorkosigan or Simon Illyan... and put them on the other side.

Yeah they'd be real bastards you could easily get your hate on for.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Bad Guys
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on February 02, 2014, 12:51:30 AM
Something that's always fun is to take a character like Aral Vorkosigan or Simon Illyan... and put them on the other side.

Up as far as Mirror Dance, I was solidly convinced that where Bujold was long-term going with that series was for Miles to end up in a situation where he absolutely had to go against a direct Imperial order and ended up becoming the cliche Barrayaran villain.  (Avoiding that, like not having Miles discover his disability has a genetic compnent after all, indicates that Lois Bujold is another person who is nicer than I am.)