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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Drulinda on August 17, 2011, 01:31:20 AM

Title: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Drulinda on August 17, 2011, 01:31:20 AM
At bitten by books Q&A jims answer to whether mortals can grant Free Will to supernaturals seeing as lash apparently gained this from harry was that this is a spectatularly complicated question and lash didnt gain Free Will like mortals but became a separate, self motivated being whose personality was greatly influnced by harrys had me wondering: Is there anything i missed in the RPGs that show/suggest a mortal can grant some variant of Free Will to a Monster under certain circumstances?
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Haru on August 17, 2011, 01:38:59 AM
Well, you can compel them and give them a fate point which is the resource of free will in the game. But actual free will, I don't think that's possible, because the whole free will vs. nature is one of the cornerstones of the world.

I think taking Jim's statement into the game, Lash had become an entity that had some traits from Harry and some traits from her former self. Maybe over time Harry won enough social conflicts with her that she took quite a few extreme consequences, changing her aspects and therefore her nature in the process. She would then be compelled on that new nature, which in comparison to her original self might seem like free will, but isn't.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 17, 2011, 02:02:06 AM
Another way of looking at is the explanation the spirit is what grows and the soul is what it grows in; bodies are just something you inhabit.  Any being missing either is fundamentally incapable of free will and growth from its exercise.  Don't ask me to explain the Fallen.  My answer to ineffable things is "eff `em".
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: UmbraLux on August 17, 2011, 02:50:57 AM
Remember the dichotomy is Free Will vs Nature.  So the question becomes, "can you convince something (or someone) to choose to act against its nature?"

As pointed out with Lash, it's possible.  However it wasn't at all easy.  As I remember that took years of convincing across a couple of books.  (Not entirely certain what the timeline was...but it wasn't short.)

Edit:  For that matter it takes a human several years to learn to delay immediate gratification.  Probably age 6 to 8 or so...
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 17, 2011, 03:39:15 AM
Edit:  For that matter it takes a human several years to learn to delay immediate gratification.  Probably age 6 to 8 or so...

If ever...
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: toturi on August 17, 2011, 04:17:33 AM
Mechanically I think it is quite simple to simulate free will. Storywise, it is just a matter of convincing the table that it is possible.

Consider: what if the nature of the monster is being free-willed?
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 17, 2011, 06:20:22 AM
Remember the dichotomy is Free Will vs Nature.  So the question becomes, "can you convince something (or someone) to choose to act against its nature?"

I think of that question in a different way:
"Can you change something's (or someone's) nature?"

Which is how I see Lash evolving.  Her nature was changed from "fragment of a Fallen One" to "I'm my own me - maybe...".   Maybe it was from multiple social takeouts that changed her high concept or maybe it was something else, but she appears to have changed.

And once she changed from "corrupt my host" to "protect my host" her new nature didn't allow any more freewill than her old one allowed.

Speaking of that... Spoilers for Ghost Story:
(click to show/hide)

Richard
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Masurao on August 17, 2011, 07:08:58 AM
I think of that question in a different way:
"Can you change something's (or someone's) nature?"

"What can change the nature of a man?"

*sigh*
Planescape: Torment, one of the most epic games ever...
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Lanir on August 17, 2011, 08:00:46 AM
What is possibly a more interesting and useful way to look at this for NPC's in general would be "How much influence does this mortal PC have with this supernatural NPC?" I think there are a number of examples in the novels where a normal mortal got a supernatural to adjust their thinking a little in response

You are totally free to adjust how free will works in your game. I don't think there's any One True Way to handle the topic. But the default assumption of the world setting is going to be that supernaturals don't gain free will. To alter that you'd have to either insert it as a basic premise or add it as a consequence of a storyline (and since it's a central-ish theme it would probably need to be a pretty epic storyline).
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Masurao on August 17, 2011, 09:11:51 AM
I guess you could give "monsters" free will, which would be awesome story-wise, but... Where do you get the free will? I'd say you'd need a soul to insert in the baddy's spirit/essence, which leads to necromancy... But still, if a NPC necromancer could pop a soul into something like Mab, imagine the ensuing chaos :D
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Lanir on August 17, 2011, 01:36:45 PM
I don't think you need a particular vehicle for free will. Probably best if it's somewhat mysterious.

As for someone wildly altering Mab... Yeah, that's why it's probably a lot better to think about it more in terms of what influence you can have over her. That sort of fundamental change would require the ability to influence her a LOT. If a necromancer didn't have the sort of power needed to back that up then I wouldn't let them pull it off.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: newtinmpls on August 17, 2011, 01:40:32 PM
"But the default assumption of the world setting is going to be that supernaturals don't gain free will. To alter that you'd have to either insert it as a basic premise or add it as a consequence of a storyline (and since it's a central-ish theme it would probably need to be a pretty epic storyline)."

This also goes back to "how do you choose to DM?" Back DMing AD&D my monsters had free will and politics and invading a lair of Fire Giants was more about supporting a faction than it was "killing monsters". Sure, the books make a distinction between free will and monsters. I don't. So in that way (one of many) my universe won't be "canon"
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 17, 2011, 02:51:25 PM
Maybe we should define Free Will.

Let's talk about humans.  A teenager who is the sixth generation of a military family, who has been to military school his whole life, could wake up one morning and decide to dropout.  Head down to Burning Man and chill.  Another teenager, one with hippy parents, could decide to ditch the peace and goodwill bullshit and join the army.

Neither choice is likely but both are possible.  While people are the sum of their experiences they still have that spark.  They can still wake up one morning and turn their lives around.  To not just think outside the box but to jump from their current box to another one.  To make an effort to become a radically different person.

Mab is Mab.  She can do a lot of things but she can't dropout - she's tied too tightly in a web of obligations.  What she does defines her almost as much as who she is.  She's incapable of making certain decisions.

The average vampire is the average vampire.  Joe the Black Court vampire can decide if he's going to stalk victim A or victim B, if he going to pursue this plot or that plot, but he has to stalk and he has to pursue plots.  He can't just take off to Burning Man.  His existance as a Black Court Vampire defines his choices as it defines him.  An investiment banker could decide to give all his money to charity and join a Buddhist monistary but Joe is always going to be a Black Court Vampire.  An aging hippy could take up a gun and start shooting everyone who doesn't believe in peace, love, and brotherhood but a Black Court Vampire can't to turn his (un)life around.

It's like having the choice of doors A to Z but you can't even think about using a window - or leaving those doors behind and dancing in the grass.  All of those choices can give the illustion of freewill but only the illusion of freewill.

That said, the illusion is usually enough.  Seriously, Harry doesn't say "Look what Mab's nature is making her do" but "What is Mab planning now?".  She might not have freewill but she has enough choices available to her to fake it.  Joe the Black Court Vampire doesn't have a world of options available to him, but since he can choose whether or not to stalk A or B, to fight or retreat, he has enough choices to fake freewill.

One of the best "freewill verse monster" descriptions in the DV is in the short story Even Hand (which is narrated by Marcone).  To quote from that story:
(click to show/hide)

And that's the issue of freewill in a nutshell.  If Marcone wants to change he can.  He could give all his money to charity and devote his remaining days working at homeless shelter.  He could read to the blind or otherwise change his life for the better - he just has chosen not to.  He is what he has chosen to be - but he still has the choice to change.  Of course, he has enemies.  If he did turn his back on who he is decide to become someone else then odds are he would be dead in days, but knowing that he could decide to reform.

Mab doesn't get a chance to reform.  Joe the vampire doesn't get a chance to reform.  Only Marcone gets to do that because he's the only one with freewill.

Richard
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: zenten on August 17, 2011, 03:53:44 PM
Personally, I think the concept of free will is bullshit, but that's in the real world.  I get the gist of what Butcher is talking about, at least enough to fake it while running a game, but it requires a certain amount of belief suspension to do.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Drulinda on August 17, 2011, 04:25:11 PM
hmm pherhaps a better thing to look at is what/who, if anyone can forcibly alter a beings nature? ex woj is joe the black court vamp may feel something for humans he cared about in life but if hes hungry hes not going to be motivated by said feeling to not eat them, a bc vamp may be eating his/her own child and think ah i reconize this one, interesting. This should probably be upsetting me but it tastes so /good/. Instead of free will can anything/one alter joes behaviour to the point where he might look elsewhere for a meal? maybe take away the good taste of blood, lower aggresion and give feelings more significance?
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: newtinmpls on August 17, 2011, 08:14:50 PM
NON specific SPOILER warning - can't recall what book



Interesting scenario: "joe the black court vamp may feel something for humans he cared about in life but if hes hungry hes not going to be motivated by said feeling to not eat them, a bc vamp may be eating his/her own child and think ah i reconize this one, interesting. This should probably be upsetting me but it tastes so /good/."

I'll start with "of course YMMV", and say that I see more a continuum than an either/or. Vamps (to run with that example) are so driven by their hunger that "er... who was that?" is and can only easily be an afterthought. Human beings are driven as well by various things, only 1-relatively less forcefully and 2-they are really good at denial.

Isn't there a point in one of the books where a powerful goodie comments that while humans certainly do have the power of choice, they don't use it very much at all. So in my world monsters do have choice, perhaps less so than humans, but they have it, few of them use it.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: polkaneverdies on August 17, 2011, 08:17:20 PM
"the warrior" spoilers: I believe you are referencing what uriel says in the warrior.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 17, 2011, 10:26:02 PM
Here, I'll settle the issue as far as the DFRPG goes... It's exactly as hard for a <=0 refresh being to exercise free will as it is to convince the GM.

That said, mechanically monsters cannot act against compels against one of their aspects. Unless someone tags/invokes one of their other aspects for a different result.  Anything not covered by one of their aspects isn't so much free will as it is inconsequential to who they fundamentally are.

Free will means a character can, with enough effort towards that goal, defy or even change any aspect up to and including their High Concept.  Those without it, can't;  though outside circumstances can alter them.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Masurao on August 18, 2011, 08:56:36 AM
I know that mechanically/technically the line between Free Will and Monster lies at about 0 Refresh, simply put. But would you say that the Merlin, as powerful as he is, perhaps is also more a 'creature' bound by what he is, as opposed to who? I am not taking into account that he is very old and is set in his ways or something, but more as a musing.

Another example: is Ebenezer McCoy, at his age, more defined by his free will or by his role in the White Council? I know it isn't the same as a negative refresh 'monster' like Mab or a vampire, but I was just wondering how you figure this one :)
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 18, 2011, 09:12:31 AM
I know that mechanically/technically the line between Free Will and Monster lies at about 0 Refresh, simply put. But would you say that the Merlin, as powerful as he is, perhaps is also more a 'creature' bound by what he is, as opposed to who? I am not taking into account that he is very old and is set in his ways or something, but more as a musing.

Another example: is Ebenezer McCoy, at his age, more defined by his free will or by his role in the White Council? I know it isn't the same as a negative refresh 'monster' like Mab or a vampire, but I was just wondering how you figure this one :)

As many Major Milestones as those two have had, they probably have a base refresh of at least 30.  The Merlin is likely skirting around as close to 0 as he can get without crossing it.  I say that based on his supreme lack of doing anything out of character unless absolutely forced.  McCoy probably has at least 4 to spare.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: polkaneverdies on August 18, 2011, 11:59:51 AM
Their respective aspects would also help to account for their actions and demeanor.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 18, 2011, 07:49:39 PM
Negative refresh characters are philosophical zombies*.

Or maybe not. But I find the idea interesting.

*Wikipedia explains this term rather well.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Silverblaze on August 19, 2011, 12:30:15 AM
First: I need to find a copy of the book "Even Hand" is from and cannot do so.  What is the title?

Second: Free Will is easy.  All it requires is positive refresh. By that same token, if you let a player pick up the role of a fae or black court vampire...for game purposes (cannon notwithstanding) you just gave it free will.  We can wax philosophical about it all day, but in the end...according to the system it is as easy as that. 
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 19, 2011, 01:14:33 AM
First: I need to find a copy of the book "Even Hand" is from and cannot do so.  What is the title?

Second: Free Will is easy.  All it requires is positive refresh. By that same token, if you let a player pick up the role of a fae or black court vampire...for game purposes (cannon notwithstanding) you just gave it free will.  We can wax philosophical about it all day, but in the end...according to the system it is as easy as that.

Yeah, "because I said so and I'm the GM" works for pretty much everything but snaking someone's beer.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Lanir on August 19, 2011, 02:59:37 AM
"Even Hand", published in Dark and Stormy Knights (July 20, 2010, ISBN 0312598343)
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 19, 2011, 02:01:37 PM
Another example: is Ebenezer McCoy, at his age, more defined by his free will or by his role in the White Council? I know it isn't the same as a negative refresh 'monster' like Mab or a vampire, but I was just wondering how you figure this one :)

I think I know the answer for this one - McCoy has freewill.

There are many things that Blackstaff wouldn't or shouldn't do that McCoy does.  Most of his relationship with Harry is made up of awkward "I shouldn't really be doing this" things he does that the Blackstaff should - from taking him as an apprentice onward.  Yes, the Blackstaff was the ideal person to put down the Harry down if he goes rogue, but why would the Blackstaff intervene? No, there's no reason for "McCoy as defined by his role in the White Council" to do anything to help Harry but there's plenty of reasons for "McCoy the human being" to decide to shrug off his responsibility to White Council and help Harry.

Richard
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 19, 2011, 02:18:09 PM
First: I need to find a copy of the book "Even Hand" is from and cannot do so.  What is the title?

Second: Free Will is easy.  All it requires is positive refresh. By that same token, if you let a player pick up the role of a fae or black court vampire...for game purposes (cannon notwithstanding) you just gave it free will.  We can wax philosophical about it all day, but in the end...according to the system it is as easy as that.

I don't think that's a good answer as it would deny the vast, vast majority of humanity (i.e. all the NPCs) freewill and that's something that the setting doesn't support.  For PCs the dividing line is positive refresh, but for NPCs there are "monsters" and beings with freewill.

McCoy can decide to duck his responsibilities as the Blackstaff to take care of something else, but Mab is Mab.

Now here's a spoiler for GS:
(click to show/hide)

Second, Even Hand was in the book Dark and Stormy Knights - a collection of stories about dark 'heroes'.  Several of the stories (well, at least 2) were done from the points of view of secondary (and dark) characters from on going series.  It's one of three stories (Even Hand, the story from Our World, and Curses) that wasn't collected in Side Jobs.

Richard
(who still has to track down Curses)
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: newtinmpls on August 19, 2011, 02:31:03 PM
Comment: Free Will is easy.  All it requires is positive refresh. By that same token, if you let a player pick up the role of a fae or black court vampire...for game purposes (cannon notwithstanding) you just gave it free will.  We can wax philosophical about it all day, but in the end...according to the system it is as easy as that.

Reply: I don't think that's a good answer as it would deny the vast, vast majority of humanity (i.e. all the NPCs) freewill and that's something that the setting doesn't support.  For PCs the dividing line is positive refresh, but for NPCs there are "monsters" and beings with freewill.

Say what? I'm not following how allowing a player a monster character and granting it free will does much of anything to the "vast vast majority of humanity?"

Did I miss something (just home from a night shift, so that's certainly plausable)
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 19, 2011, 02:53:51 PM
Comment: Free Will is easy.  All it requires is positive refresh. By that same token, if you let a player pick up the role of a fae or black court vampire...for game purposes (cannon notwithstanding) you just gave it free will.  We can wax philosophical about it all day, but in the end...according to the system it is as easy as that.

Reply: I don't think that's a good answer as it would deny the vast, vast majority of humanity (i.e. all the NPCs) freewill and that's something that the setting doesn't support.  For PCs the dividing line is positive refresh, but for NPCs there are "monsters" and beings with freewill.

Say what? I'm not following how allowing a player a monster character and granting it free will does much of anything to the "vast vast majority of humanity?"

Did I miss something (just home from a night shift, so that's certainly plausable)

Maybe I missed something.  What I read in the "make it a PC and it has freewill" is that PCs (and only PCs) have freewill - and since the vast majority of beings out there won't be PCs...

Otherwise, the RAW say that certain things don't have freewill and aren't available as PCs.  If a group agrees that they're fine with someone playing X with a freewill then that's great for that group but that's not the RAW.

Richard
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 19, 2011, 04:48:10 PM
I don't think that's what Silverblaze meant.

I think he was saying that

A) Anything with positive refresh has free will.
B) A PC must have positive refresh.
C) Therefore, a PC must have free will.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: polkaneverdies on August 19, 2011, 05:13:06 PM
Some groups treat all npcs as having 0 refresh. Some groups do not. That might explain the disconnect you guys are having.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 19, 2011, 10:23:01 PM
Ah - sorry then.  I misread it.

Richard
(Who doesn't go back to edit out errors from old posts)
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: SunlessNick on August 20, 2011, 05:07:00 PM
Quote
Consider: what if the nature of the monster is being free-willed?  -  toturi
It does make me wonder how to stat djinn in the Dresden setting, as free will is an important part of their folklore (while a lot of them labour under bindings, that's not meant to be their nature).
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 20, 2011, 05:10:00 PM
They have 1 refresh and get compelled while on zero FP a lot.

A sponsor debt mechanic would also be appropriate, I think.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about djinn.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: newtinmpls on August 20, 2011, 05:59:06 PM
I must still be tired (or maybe it's the combo of Kraken Rum and Ibu that I took for my back pain) because I stared at this for far too long waiting for it to make sense:

"Otherwise, the RAW say that certain things don't have freewill and aren't available as PCs.  If a group agrees that they're fine with someone playing X with a freewill then that's great for that group but that's not the RAW."

That's got to be Rules As Written, right? <insert maniacal and slightly hysterical laughter here> That is the reason I DM, to DEFY the "rules"! (and that's the reason that I game at all).

A PC has the huge/enourmous advantage of having a Player as an active oversoul (bear with me) so that while in the normal course of things John Doe would run FROM trouble, John Doe as roleplayed by PC can overcome his or her normal low refresh to run TOWARD it.

I think anything can become a PC. It's the equivalent of part of the character's soul raising it's hand (and in Wheel of Time parlance) volunteering to become Ta'Verne (no idea how to spell that).
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 20, 2011, 08:13:58 PM
"Otherwise, the RAW say that certain things don't have freewill and aren't available as PCs.  If a group agrees that they're fine with someone playing X with a freewill then that's great for that group but that's not the RAW."

That's got to be Rules As Written, right? <insert maniacal and slightly hysterical laughter here> That is the reason I DM, to DEFY the "rules"! (and that's the reason that I game at all).

Yes, RAW is Rules As Written.  No, I hadn't encountered that abbreviation until hitting this board then turned to google to see what it meant.  Half the time I still type out 'rules as written'....

The Dresden Files RPG lends itself to custom rules.  In some places it practically demands them.  The publisher refuses to give rules clarification, instead giving advice (look at the Law Breaker sticky and you will find advise from a couple of people who worked on the game).

The thing is, when there's a debate going on it's always nice to say "My group likes playing with this homebrew" or something like that.  If you want have to have someone (PC or NPC) who's a Black Court Vampire with freewill, that's great.  The thing is, your group deciding that something like that works for them doesn't change what the rules say about freewill.

So my position "Black Court Vampires can't have freewill as per the RAW" while your position is "Black Court Vampires (or anything else) can have freewill in my game if I as GM allow it" - and we're both right.  My position covers the default rules as written while yours covers your homebrew.   Most of our disagreement seems to been because of confusion over what the other guy was saying.

Richard
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: newtinmpls on August 21, 2011, 12:40:20 AM
"Most of our disagreement seems to been because of confusion over what the other guy was saying."

I disagree. OOPs sorry I had to say that.

What I actually mean is that I think that part of the essence of the disagreeement is "this works best <meaning "I like doing it my universe"> and not 'getting' that meaning.
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Masurao on August 22, 2011, 01:15:17 AM
It does make me wonder how to stat djinn in the Dresden setting, as free will is an important part of their folklore (while a lot of them labour under bindings, that's not meant to be their nature).

Well, that's a good question... Jinn were created before humanity and are a lot like angels, even having there own Lucifer (Iblis), we western folk even get our word Satan for Iblis' new name after he got booted out of paradise. There is one snag, however, they're said to live in a mirror world to our own and are almost always invisible to humans.

Of course, you could always come up with something to make them free-willed, however, I feel that it isn't exactly necessary and you might be inviting more trouble in some cases. In the Qu'ran, they are said to have free will, but the book is written by humans, for starters. If you do take the Qu'ran as truth, are you going to make Allah the same as the White God, or another entity altogether? If they are the same, than why doesn't the Bible really mention the Jinn (speaking about public perception, don't personally know if they are inferred or referred to)? Were we lied to?! If they are different, then does that mean that angels have two bosses? Or are there different angels for both Yahweh and Allah?

Ugh... I've given myself a brain-ache...
Title: Re: Monsters and Free Will
Post by: Lanir on August 22, 2011, 07:12:49 AM
You shouldn't have too much problem implementing new ideas into the Dresden Files universe. It's actually pretty open when you think about it. Just within the novels we have fae, Lovecraftian horrors, and the Norse pantheon all showing up alongside ideas from the Christian faith. Given the rather complex treatment angels have been given in the series so far I think you're totally safe having them just not answer any questions about who they serve. It's not like they give straight answers on any other topic, why should this one be unique?

Ultimately the only thing you have to do is be respectful when you handle other people's beliefs. Some easy ways to do this are to avoid questions like whether Yahweh and Allah are the same person, how powerful deities are in relation to each other, etc. When big, existential stuff comes up in the novels, most of the time answers are not forthcoming. If they come up in your game, try giving a generic answer like "That you've asked the question is more interesting than any answer I could give." or "That isn't the right question. What you should be asking is <insert question more directly appropriate to the situation here>".