ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on April 05, 2018, 02:19:44 PM
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https://i.imgur.com/8qoIcmi.png
Lucifer is nowhere close to the Biggest Bad. He's not even on the tree.
Look. Lucy's main mission in life is to win an agrument...with GOD. It's about humans and free will. It's complicated beyond the mortal ability to understand, so we only know the shorthand of it. He has bent the universe in the course of his argument, caused untold suffering, and he is NOWHERE CLOSE because in order to win an argument about the nature of the universe, YOU NEED TO HAVE A UNIVERSE.
That, right there, gives him a limit other bads don't have. Plus he is /really/ focused on his argument. All the bad he does is in service to that. It's not personal. Well, it is, but it isn't. You'll see when he shows up.
But honestly, Nicodemus is more dangerous to the universe than Lucy, in some ways.
https://i.imgur.com/fPVMmap.png
Q: That's interesting indeed. (AND I really want to see Harry, someday, talking to the Greatest of the Fallen and call him Lucy.
But if both God and Lucy agree they want the universe intact, that would imply that beings that want to destroy the universe are powerful enough to threaten both of them, otherwise God would be saying "No, you can't do that to My creation"...
A: Almighty isn't really about determining the order of the universe. He isn't a GM. He made us a sandbox game and then let us decide how to play it, and mod it.
Now He's already told those forces, 'stay out of my sandbox' and they do. But He's also gives us the sandbox. And if we want to invite them in to screw it all up, well. The void is still there. Waiting.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/370363025439457282/428181535208767489/unknown.png
JIM: Fair warning, reported WOJ's that I see after conventions and whatnot are just dead wrong maybe a quarter of the time. I used to try to correct them back in the day but then I thought, "I can't be spending so much time chasing plastic bags in a high wind" so I mostly stopped.
I am not merely an unreliable narrator. I am proactive about it.
FAN: I consider your quotes at Q&As as good frameworks to the future plans and as clarification, but that the finished books are always the iron-clad clarifications, because entire scenarios could be changed between one Q&A and when it actually comes time to write about it. But I have seen people get into honest all-caps arguments over seemingly contradictory ideas between books and con discussions, so...
Jim: Yeah and most of those, at least the ones I've seen, are based on misheard or misunderstood statements. And I have knowingly dropped misinformation based on those kind of fights at least twice.
Trust no one, not even the author! Especially the author!
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/370363025439457282/428620785247322143/Screenshot_20180328-142354.jpg
Fan: But...Now I don't know which 25% of the WOJ website to believe?
Jim: Wouldn't believe any of it if I were you. I don't do a lot of deliberate disinformation but I find that just a little bit of a lie makes all that truth so much more unreliable and therefore harder to predict :)
Fan: You sir have just sparked a new wave of insane theories. Take cover.
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Like I believed before, Lucifer is on Team Good with respect to the existence of the Universe. So it seems free willed mortals are more of a threat to the universe than many of the higher powered entities. Though I suspect there are other high powered entities within universe that are a threat to the universe by virtue of the fact that they just don't have limits.
Now considering Mac=Corwin=?God, I'd say that Mac is a whisper of God in our reality that is Watching but must remain constrained particularly with respect to mortal free will. Since there is a big argument with Lucifer over this particular point, I'd imagine it's safe to say it is something He can't cross. Since He has given the universe to us as a Sandbox, it is up to us to Keep it. I still imagine God can still appear within it. Gryffyn has argued that Mac is Raphael but I think we can take it up a notch and consider Mac as a projection of God.
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Lucifer is nowhere close to the Biggest Bad. He's not even on the tree.
A tree, eh? I didn't know the big bads all like to hang out on the branches of a leafless oak, vying for top perch.
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Yeah, that rang wierd.
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I just assumed it was a response to an earlier comment, and that wasn't posted.
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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/370363025439457282/428181535208767489/unknown.png
JIM: Fair warning, reported WOJ's that I see after conventions and whatnot are just dead wrong maybe a quarter of the time. I used to try to correct them back in the day but then I thought, "I can't be spending so much time chasing plastic bags in a high wind" so I mostly stopped.
I am not merely an unreliable narrator. I am proactive about it.
FAN: I consider your quotes at Q&As as good frameworks to the future plans and as clarification, but that the finished books are always the iron-clad clarifications, because entire scenarios could be changed between one Q&A and when it actually comes time to write about it. But I have seen people get into honest all-caps arguments over seemingly contradictory ideas between books and con discussions, so...
Jim: Yeah and most of those, at least the ones I've seen, are based on misheard or misunderstood statements. And I have knowingly dropped misinformation based on those kind of fights at least twice.
Trust no one, not even the author! Especially the author!
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/370363025439457282/428620785247322143/Screenshot_20180328-142354.jpg
Fan: But...Now I don't know which 25% of the WOJ website to believe?
Jim: Wouldn't believe any of it if I were you. I don't do a lot of deliberate disinformation but I find that just a little bit of a lie makes all that truth so much more unreliable and therefore harder to predict :)
Fan: You sir have just sparked a new wave of insane theories. Take cover.
(http://i.imgur.com/DubtsPZ.jpg) (https://imgur.com/DubtsPZ)
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Theories with in book evidence are now possible regardless of WoJ countering it now lol.
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Theories with in book evidence are now possible regardless of WoJ countering it now lol.
Did Pope Jim of Butcherolicism just become his own Martin Luther?
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Actually, I think he's subtly emphasizing that Harry is a poor narrator. AND it leaves Jim with the OUT if he needs it.
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My deepest sympathies to Serack and those that helped with the WoJ collection.
(https://img1.etsystatic.com/108/2/9707626/il_570xN.882704415_tcj6.jpg)
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That's why I just don't believe any "WoJ" without video or a direct text from the man himself.
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That's why I just don't believe any "WoJ" without video or a direct text from the man himself.
But even with that, he's established that he's lied in his comments. Even direct quotes are now officially questionable.
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But even with that, he's established that he's lied in his comments. Even direct quotes are now officially questionable.
Yeah, but on the balance, I imagine there's going to more truth than fiction out of them.
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Well, dang. Didn't that just muddy the waters.
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I am curious as to where these came from, also. I mean, facebook, ok, sure. But why a screenshot and not a link?
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I got them from DF Reddit discord server.
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Yeah, but on the balance, I imagine there's going to more truth than fiction out of them.
Sure, but if 1% is a lie, then in every argument, the WoJ can be dismissed as "the lie to preserve the truth" by whichever side it disproves.
Not that any of this is really a surprise. We had a debate about JB's WoJ truthiness a year or two ago. Folks chose to either believe he could be lying or that everything he said was the truth.
Now the argument will be, "if he's willing to lie to us, then maybe he's lying about lying".
I'm hoping for some entertaining debates. 8)
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Yeah, I read his statements about lying and him leading us to not believing longstanding woj, then I was I like why should I be believing you now? So, it doesn't change anything for me and how I was approaching things.
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Sure, but if 1% is a lie, then in every argument, the WoJ can be dismissed as "the lie to preserve the truth" by whichever side it disproves.
Not that any of this is really a surprise. We had a debate about JB's WoJ truthiness a year or two ago. Folks chose to either believe he could be lying or that everything he said was the truth.
Now the argument will be, "if he's willing to lie to us, then maybe he's lying about lying".
I'm hoping for some entertaining debates. 8)
Didn't he say he dropped 2 pieces of misinformation? Lets debate about what those two pieces are lol.
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Didn't he say he dropped 2 pieces of miss information? Lets debate about what those two pieces are lol.
If the quotes are to be believed, he did it "at least" twice. Which in theory could mean every single time he's said anything at all.
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If the quotes are to be believed, he did it "at least" twice. Which in theory could mean every single time he's said anything at all.
My guess is that he may have dropped a few pieces of misinformation but it's probably when someone figured out something, and Jim doesn't want it getting out. Or he wants to seed doubt because he may have let some things slip he doesn't want out. I think when talking about the books he's being honest. However when asked specifically about the prisoner on DR and him saying "You couldn't understand Merlin's English", something like that could be misinformation. Or what he said about Mac.
Book information is probably accurate, specifics about characters, or situations are in doubt, I think.
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I am curious as to where these came from, also. I mean, facebook, ok, sure. But why a screenshot and not a link?
I know two facebook groups that jim has posted in(but I don't know which group the screenshot is from):
Jim Butcher Appreciation Society
Jim Butcher Idolization Tribe
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I wasn't expecting to meet Lucifer until the very end of the series. The way Jim mentioned us seeing him seemed like he meant relatively soon rather than in 2 decades when were reading the BAT.
I don't want Mac to be god because I don't want Dresden to be able to say "my beetle was in the shop one time so I borrowed GOD's Trans-AM"
What he says about Lucifer makes sense. That doesn't meant Lucifer doesn't want to make humans into a hollow shell of what we are now.
So.. that tree stuff is basically a clear declaration that the outsiders are far from alone in wanting to destroy the universe.
maybe we shall meet some new major enemys in peace talks.
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If the quotes are to be believed, he did it "at least" twice. Which in theory could mean every single time he's said anything at all.
We know of one at least: that time he told us Harry was going to Grant Fidelaccius to somebody in TC and it turned out to be Nicodemus. It was a deliberate mislead that was sorta kinda true from a certain perspective once you saw the context.
But ya, if 1/4th is wrong anyway, and he's been sprinkling active disinformation into the mix as well, it really kills the whole effort.
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I still think Nicodemus will get a Sword in the End.
Did you guys note that Jim said Nicodemus is more dangerous to the Universe, in some ways, than Lucifer.
Jim: Yeah and most of those, at least the ones I've seen, are based on misheard or misunderstood statements. And I have knowingly dropped misinformation based on those kind of fights at least twice.
Trust no one, not even the author! Especially the author!
The two bits of misinformation was in reference to the arguments referred to by the Fan after a convention or Q&A that Jim attributed to them having misheard, misunderstood things. Jim said he then sprinkled misinformation to add to the confusion surrounding it. I believe Jim added this misinformation either in Q&A's or in the books to keep people guessing with respect to the heated debate.
But ya, if 1/4th is wrong anyway, and he's been sprinkling active disinformation into the mix as well, it really kills the whole effort.
Only 1/4 of the non-sourced WOJ's that is spread right after conventions, Q&A's. I mean, I seriously doubt he is considering the transcribed material from videos as potentially in error. I think the 1/4 error is more associated with I heard this, then I paraphrased it and passed it along.
Fan: But...Now I don't know which 25% of the WOJ website to believe?
This is the Fan incorrectly interpreting what Jim just said. And the Fan doesn't really know what goes into sourcing the WOJ website. It isn't paraphrases. It is often direct transcriptions from videos, or written quotes by Jim himself.
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What was the exact wording of the WOJ on the Prisoner on Demonreach not being Merlin. Was Merlin excluded per Jim merely on the basis of him not being able to communicate in understandable English. And should we believe Jim when, if he says it isn't Merlin.
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But even with that, he's established that he's lied in his comments. Even direct quotes are now officially questionable.
I think it's all a smoke screen made up in the last year or so to keep us off the truth. He's slipped up and mentioned quite a few things and implied hella others in his Wojing over the years... I think he's trying to cover his ass from every direction is all.
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I still think Nicodemus will get a Sword in the End.
Did you guys note that Jim said Nicodemus is more dangerous to the Universe, in some ways, than Lucifer.
The two bits of misinformation was in reference to the arguments referred to by the Fan after a convention or Q&A that Jim attributed to them having misheard, misunderstood things. Jim said he then sprinkled misinformation to add to the confusion surrounding it. I believe Jim added this misinformation either in Q&A's or in the books to keep people guessing with respect to the heated debate.
Only 1/4 of the non-sourced WOJ's that is spread right after conventions, Q&A's. I mean, I seriously doubt he is considering the transcribed material from videos as potentially in error. I think the 1/4 error is more associated with I heard this, then I paraphrased it and passed it along.
This is the Fan incorrectly interpreting what Jim just said. And the Fan doesn't really know what goes into sourcing the WOJ website. It isn't paraphrases. It is often direct transcriptions from videos, or written quotes by Jim himself.
That's a true enough statement. The more gut-punchy line for me was this bit
Fan: But...Now I don't know which 25% of the WOJ website to believe?
Jim: Wouldn't believe any of it if I were you. (http://Fan: But...Now I don't know which 25% of the WOJ website to believe?
Jim: Wouldn't believe any of it if I were you.)Cant really say that was misinterpreting the Collection vs the general rumor-mill, just seems to undercut the whole purpose and value of it :-\
Its been a remarkably bad couple weeks for me already, which is likely coloring my response. By next week Ill care a whole lot less (one way or the other)
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I think that was an Extremely Wild Exaggeration on Jim's Part. If we are to take Jim's word that he lies, then I'd take him at his word and assume he is lying about "wouldn't believe any of it."
I mean he spends so much time going to these Q&A's, which for the most part are transcribed by folks here. I mean if he simply spins all of it as falsehood, there is basically no point to him going to the Q&A's. In any event, he gets asked the same thing at so many of the Q&A's and the answers have largely been consistent so I think he mainly tells the truth with these consistent answers.
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I don't want Mac to be god because I don't want Dresden to be able to say "my beetle was in the shop one time so I borrowed GOD's Trans-AM"
You know, I think this will come back with more meaning once we find out what/who Mac is. My early theories for Mac was that he was either Odin, Mimir, or possibly Merlin. Anyways, I think when Harry borrowed Mac's car he was tapping into a vehicle that a bit more than met the eye. It lasted just long enough to get Harry to Victor Sells home. Mac's car bypassed traffic and the scenery passed by much like is what is described in traveling within the Amberverse. It was like the path from Mac's bar to Victor Sells home was parted just so that Harry could make it there in time. I also noted that Mac gave Harry a hand, a Handshake and said Luck. It is reminiscent of other characters giving Harry a hand, including Uriel and Hades.
The Amber in me wants to make a similarity between Mac and the Amberites ability to shape probabilities with their powers. So, in Amber Corwin saying Luck to Harry would in essence skew probabilities in favor of his success at something. If Mac is God then say he could ensure the car made it to Victor Sells but he couldn't interfere past that when it came to choices Harry would make in the encounter vs Victor.
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Because it can't just be a car. No, that would be unrealistic and require too many assumptions.
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Because it can't just be a car. No, that would be unrealistic and require too many assumptions.
Considering it's already been linked as a firebird, yep. I find it likely an incarnation of the Chariots that pull the sun, even if now only metaphorically.
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Considering it's already been linked as a firebird, yep. I find it likely an incarnation of the Chariots that pull the sun, even if now only metaphorically.
Or the Merkabah/Merkava from Ezekiel...
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Considering it's already been linked as a firebird, yep. I find it likely an incarnation of the Chariots that pull the sun, even if now only metaphorically.
Which would then make either Harry or Mac the Sun. Probably the sun, because beer gives people that warm feeling. Of course! How could it be anything else!
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Which would then make either Harry or Mac the Sun. Probably the sun, because beer gives people that warm feeling. Of course! How could it be anything else!
Guess you got this snippy at Eldest Gruff's son of the chief physician when it came out? Go over to Reddit where he still hangs out and make such comments, i'd love to see that.. you can pretty much sling shit back at people for continuingly making the same sort of comments of stubborn refusal to see anything they don't wish to, made worse by the egotistifcal need to rally against it.... You know, hypothetically, over there, were we don't have such fine upstanding people to do such things, no?
Adding in the Dagda/Sun/Appollo association isn't a thing already so well proven. Giving him connotations of rebirth btw, point to the origins of Harry's starborn trait, that of fire, change, death... and also inherently rebirth.
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Of course it could just be a car but I think it could have extra perks by virtue of who owns it.
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Because it can't just be a car. No, that would be unrealistic and require too many assumptions.
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/d4/91/ef/d491efb6d2d331124f43549219ddddb1.jpg)
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:)
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I've been thinking a bit about this argument between Lucifer and God. In the Bible there are humans who do have arguments with God, and who actually change God's mind by their arguments. I'm reminded of Abraham, Moses, Job, Jacob, and others. Perhaps this argument between Lucifer and God needs to happen. Maybe God needs to actually consider the arguments Lucifer is making. Maybe there is some points, some rather specific point that Lucifer will end up convincing God on. It still doesn't change the fact that Lucifer fell, but it puts Lucifer and his argument in a sort of a position where God needs to hear it.
http://www.johnbmacdonald.com/resources/arguing-with-god--28
Maybe Harry having learned a bit more about this argument between God and Lucifer will arrive at a decision in which something that Lucifer could do that could save the Universe is something that God and his Angels couldn't. And, it will be Harry's choice (free will) that allows Lucifer to act in that way which in a sense argues in favor of mortal free will. Maybe Lucifer will end up lending Harry his Disgrace. We do know that Lucifer will show up in the Books, likely in Hells Bells.
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I think that the world building stuff and background info is most likely all correct. That makes up a good chunk of the WOJ. The stuff that might be called into question are statements about plot (time travel) or planted seeds (prisoner in DR). I can see misinformation being planted there in order to protect the series as a whole from getting spoiled. Most of the theories I have read are based on the books and background info. I think it is still safe to do that.
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Maybe Lucifer will end up lending Harry his Disgrace.
Holy freaking crap, Uriel would have a conniption.
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Holy freaking crap, Uriel would have a conniption.
Heh, I like it. I already suspect that lending his Grace will allow his opposite to do the same, but Harry? lmao good's one Rai.
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I know two facebook groups that jim has posted in(but I don't know which group the screenshot is from):
Jim Butcher Appreciation Society
Jim Butcher Idolization Tribe
Jim is no longer a member of JBAS (Jim Butcher Appreciation Society) due to poor treatment of his fiancee. Jim IS a member of JBIT (Jim Butcher Idolization Tribe) which was founded in response to the poor treatment of Kitty.
The screen shots provided earlier in this thread are his comments inside of JBIT. It's a closed group, which is probably why it's screenshots and not links.
As an admin of JBIT, I'd like to invite those of you who are interested to join us: https://www.facebook.com/groups/JB1Tch3s/ Please be sure to take a moment to read the rules of the group.
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Jim is no longer a member of JBAS (Jim Butcher Appreciation Society) due to poor treatment of his fiancee. Jim IS a member of JBIT (Jim Butcher Idolization Tribe) which was founded in response to the poor treatment of Kitty.
The screen shots provided earlier in this thread are his comments inside of JBIT. It's a closed group, which is probably why it's screenshots and not links.
As an admin of JBIT, I'd like to invite those of you who are interested to join us: https://www.facebook.com/groups/JB1Tch3s/ Please be sure to take a moment to read the rules of the group.
Huh. I knew JBAS saw a pretty big exodus when it started to turn toxic, but while I knew a bunch of folks left for the Dresdenphiles group, I didnt know about the JBIT at all
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JIM: Fair warning, reported WOJ's that I see after conventions and whatnot are just dead wrong maybe a quarter of the time. I used to try to correct them back in the day but then I thought, "I can't be spending so much time chasing plastic bags in a high wind" so I mostly stopped.
I am not merely an unreliable narrator. I am proactive about it.
In my opinion this is the most important WOJ so far... If this is an accurate quote, Jim is telling us to take even his WOJs with a grain of salt... He can be misquoted, misunderstood, he needs to be free to change his mind. I can think of some really heated debates among fans that might have been more civil if this was kept in mind...
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Yeah. I think he said he has seen some arguments and deliberately left things unclear on that point to keep the tension, interest going.
One wonders whose and what argument Jim saw. I think though that it was in reference to WOJ's after Q&A's.
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Which is why the best WoJ are recorded on video.
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There are wojs transcribed from them.
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There are wojs transcribed from them.
and those are subject a lot of the time to the whim of the transcriber. I know of at least one old video with a few gems in it largely ignored because they didn't directly relate to known subjects.... one of the original woj collection videos too. What one person would stress another would throw away as extra.
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Yeah. Well, I never transcribe the entire video. I only transcribe things I consider attention grabbing for me. Actually, most of the time I just jot down a noted summary. If I need precise text, I then go for the direct transcription. It takes me much time though, my memory and hearing isn't the greatest so I have to repeat the video sample over and over. I'm also not a fast typer.
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and those are subject a lot of the time to the whim of the transcriber. I know of at least one old video with a few gems in it largely ignored because they didn't directly relate to known subjects.... one of the original woj collection videos too. What one person would stress another would throw away as extra.
That's why I like to link the video. I add stuff that I like but it's up to the reader to go and watch the video for all the other info.
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I agree, Mira. Also, I always did that. The real canon are the books.
Groinkick, as I am not so good with oral English, I love transcriptions. I always miss a part of the videos. So thanks again for those doing transcriptions!
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Yeah. Well, I never transcribe the entire video. I only transcribe things I consider attention grabbing for me. Actually, most of the time I just jot down a noted summary.
Which is why the best WoJ are recorded on video. Because your summary may not be someone else's summary.
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Well, sure the original source material is always the most accurate source, but for those of us that dont speak the original Aramaic or have bandwidth limitations, translations and transcriptions are damn useful to have.
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Yep. So, if you want the best, most accurate WOJ watch the video. If you want a corrupted quick glance read someones summary.
I've never forced someone to accept mine as gospel. I've transcribed portions accurately but as it pertains to a limited question and answer. And even then, there is subtly in response that is lost with just printed transcription.
That's why I like to link the video. I add stuff that I like but it's up to the reader to go and watch the video for all the other info.
I've done the same.
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In my case, it's almost everything (transcription) against a few things (video)