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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on September 24, 2023, 03:57:53 AM
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Has Harry ever used his mother's gem in an attempt
to find a safe(ish) Nevernever path to Demonreach?
(I know he has previously avoided the Nevernever side, but it needs guarding. The outer island defenses start well-offshore, presumably for good reason; if someone -- or something -- can just step onto the island, bypassing those layers, That Would Be Bad. Maybe there already are defenses there (it's an approach that I cannot see OG Merlin overlooking), but AFAIK we've never seen Warden Harry actually address the issue)
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We have never been told, clearly the Gatekeeper knows one and a Maeve knew if one so the presemuption has to be it’s in Winter. Most likely Mab’s Ice Garden as it represents an inescapable prison the same as Demonreach. Given the Merlin and the pre Queen Mab had a thing, I suspect it was for late night booty calls.
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Peabody and his partner appear to have known a Way to the island. I think it would have been obvious and dangerous for them to have used a boat. Even if one of them was a former Warden of Demonreach, (There is some speculation in another thread about former Wardens of the island after Kemmler) it appears there is only one gap to get through the reef surrounding the island.
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Peabody and his partner appear to have known a Way to the island. I think it would have been obvious and dangerous for them to have used a boat. Even if one of them was a former Warden of Demonreach, (There is some speculation in another thread about former Wardens of the island after Kemmler) it appears there is only one gap to get through the reef surrounding the island.
If I remember correctly it was a very nasty Way as well... Didn't a bunch of giant spiders go along with him?
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They didn't use a boat. Harry had his Intellectus up and saw them just appear on Demonreach. They may have brought the spiders with them or summoned them like Binder does with his troops.
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Peabody and his partner appear to have known a Way to the island...
I've never been entirely satisfied with this idea...
If Peabody knew a Way onto the island, WTF was he doing on-camera using the same Way into Chicago that the Senior Councilors were using, as their route to the island?
The Water Beetle may be Harry's reliable way onto the island, but that doesn't mean someone like Peabody might not be willing to do other things (like fly overhead, then parasail to a soft landing; etc).
The more I think on it, the less I believe Peabody arrived via the Nevernever: being able to set foot on Demonreach from the Nevernever is a *HUGE* gap in the island's defenses.
If such a route exists (known to Peabody, who presumably is presumably an Outsidertool) why didn't Nemfected Justine do it?
Why didn't the Outsiders' earlier barge-borne water assault include a Nevernever component?
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If Peabody knew a Way onto the island, WTF was he doing on-camera using the same Way into Chicago that the Senior Councilors were using, as their route to the island?
But the Senior Councilors with the exception of Rashid [who knows most if not all the Ways] used a boat because the Way or Ways to the island were so dangerous.
The more I think on it, the less I believe Peabody arrived via the Nevernever: being able to set foot on Demonreach from the Nevernever is a *HUGE* gap in the island's defenses.
Yes, and no, if the Way to the island is that dangerous, few would attempt to use it or perhaps even know about it. It was a HUGE gap in the defenses as long as the island was Wardenless, but that was addressed once Harry became Warden.
If such a route exists (known to Peabody, who presumably is presumably an Outsidertool) why didn't Nemfected Justine do it?
Because the island now has a Warden, Harry Dresden, that year he lived on the island that aspect of the island's defenses was addressed and now closed, so Nemfected Justine couldn't use it.
Why didn't the Outsiders' earlier barge-borne water assault include a Nevernever component?
Hiccup in Jim's writing perhaps? Or more logically the Way that exists didn't lend itself to a mass invasion.. Or maybe not even the Outsiders know all of the Ways in the Nevernever.. Which makes sense if you think about it, because if they knew them all, the Nevernever would be vulnerable as well. In other words why do the Outsiders waste troops storming the Outer Gates if they could invade the Nevernever by a Way or Ways?
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... In other words why do the Outsiders waste troops storming the Outer Gates if they could invade the Nevernever by a Way or Ways?
The Outside is outside of even the Nevernever.
You have to go deep into the Nevernever to get to the Outer Gates; there are no Ways on the other side of them.
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The Outside is outside of even the Nevernever.
You have to go deep into the Nevernever to get to the Outer Gates; there are no Ways on the other side of them.
Do we have that information yet? Another way of looking at it, that is another reason why they wanted so badly to infect the inner circle of either Court, how many outside of the Queens actually know ALLthe Ways? Even if there are no Ways in or out of the Outer Gates.. Outsiders can be summoned by mortals, right? Mortals can be tricked or corrupted into performing that act, right? So theoretically, an Outsider can be summoned, find a Way into the Nevernever. Especially an area not well controlled by either Court and very dangerous to begin with.
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Arctis tor is difficult for most Wizards to get to, there is however a known Way from Pells Theatre in Chicago to the Phobophages lair just outside it, which Harry would have put in his report to the White Council about Molly and received by ……Peabody. Therefore Peabody would have had to use the Edinburgh to Chicago route, get a taxi or lift to Pell’s, meet his partner (Maeve) in the now empty phobophages lair, who would then take him to the Ice Garden and open a Way dumping Winters Ice Spiders (placed by Maeve to harass Harry on the Way to Edinburgh).
This is likely one of the actions which alerted Mab that Maeve could not be trusted, she already suspected Nameless of opening the Gate during the attack on Arctis Tor and had banished him, having Maeve do it took the pressure off Nameless. Another reason why I think Nameless is Cowl, he is the only character with access to both Winter and to Wardens reports.
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... Another way of looking at it, that is another reason why they wanted so badly to infect the inner circle of either Court, how many outside of the Queens actually know ALLthe Ways?...
I don't even think the Queens know literally "ALL" the Ways!
I expect Mab & Titania know all the Ways in Winter & Summer (respectively); but only moderately-well within the opposite demesne; and quite variably in the non-faerie portions of the Nevernever, with some regions better-known, and some areas lesser.
I expect, for example, that the Mothers know more Ways than the Queens know. I bet the Erlking knows more ways -- outside those of Summer and Winter -- than either of the Queens know: such is the way of the Huntsman, in Wild parts of Faerie and non-Fae parts of the Nevernever.
Do we have that information yet? ... Even if there are no Ways in or out of the Outer Gates..
It seems like an awfully-safe bet that there are no Ways beyond the Outer Gates. If they could bypass the Gates that easily, why would the Outsiders be besieging them, and Winter (and her conscripts defending them)? As I recall it, MOST of Winter is defending the Gates; only a tiny fraction is in the Mortal realm & nearby Nevernever, being "Wintery" (and balancing Summer).
If they could bypass it, then all manner of Outsiders would be roaming the Nevernever, willy-nilly. But that's not what we see.
... Outsiders can be summoned by mortals, right? Mortals can be tricked or corrupted into performing that act, right? So theoretically, an Outsider can be summoned, find a Way into the Nevernever. Especially an area not well controlled by either Court and very dangerous to begin with.
This is the crux of my argument, yes. We know that Papa Raith had (and used) Outsider-summoning magic; so did the Rampires. So do various other demi-mortals; plus of course mortal wizards (note that even low-powered sorceror-types can use it, q.v. the "coven of porn sorceresses" (which made Molly WTF and think Harry was making it up)).
WoJ says you don't really need *any* magical talent to perform certain "vending machine" rituals -- perform the ritual, get the "prize."
So getting an Outsider past the Outer Gates and into the mortal world isn't all that hard; just rare, as the "easy" rituals are hard to find, and doing it with just skill & power takes a lot of both.
We know the Outsiders can operate in the Nevernever, because they were with the Ramps attacking the White Council party retreating through the Nevernever (as saved by Michael).
So, why don't these Outsiders take a Way onto Demonreach, if such exists?
I can -- kinda-sorta -- see CT's theory, here: because the Way connects to Mab's icegarden, atop Arctis Tor's tower; that might indeed be enough to keep out Outsiders.
But I only "kinda-sorta" that as a full explanation... it's a moderately-large island, and surely there's a Way to be opened from MANY places on the island! Do you open the same Way when you're
- standing on wet, lake-splashed pebbles
- in a thicket of trees
- the rough staircase
- inside the Circle atop the island
- inside the cottage there
Surely not!
(and I'll call you Shirley if I want to!)
But if opening each of those go to multiple places... where do they each go?
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Given what Demonreach contains and keeping it contained being such a big deal…
Why way Demonreach…. ever… “wardenless”?
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Given what Demonreach contains and keeping it contained being such a big deal…
Why way Demonreach…. ever… “wardenless”?
IIRC, WoJ suggests that:
(a) people who understand the Island & the job of Warden mostly don't WANT the job.
(b) if someone actually does want the job, most of the Council will take that as prima facie evidence they're an evil wizard making a power-grab.
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IIRC, WoJ suggests that:
(a) people who understand the Island & the job of Warden mostly don't WANT the job.
(b) if someone actually does want the job, most of the Council will take that as prima facie evidence they're an evil wizard making a power-grab.
Then we have (c), someone like Harry that does a ritual out of desperation having no clue that there are consequences beyond those he intended when he did it. The one person who neither wanted the job or is into a power grab. However the Council doesn't know that, so they assume (b).
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Then we have (c), someone like Harry that does a ritual out of desperation having no clue that there are consequences beyond those he intended when he did it. The one person who neither wanted the job or is into a power grab. However the Council doesn't know that, so they assume (b).
I think Jim has said that a minority of the Council thinks it's "proof of evil" but most of them are bemusedly going, "wait... was he just clueless and stupid? And lucky? That looks an awful lot like lucky and clueless. And stupid. I think it was ... just lucky and stupid! And clueless!"
(of the members who are, themselves, clued-in to the island; which AIUI most of the Council actually are not)
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I think Jim has said that a minority of the Council thinks it's "proof of evil" but most of them are bemusedly going, "wait... was he just clueless and stupid? And lucky? That looks an awful lot like lucky and clueless. And stupid. I think it was ... just lucky and stupid! And clueless!"
(of the members who are, themselves, clued-in to the island; which AIUI most of the Council actually are not)
That's Harry's problem, those who "actually understand," believe Harry was, just lucky or unlucky depending on how you want to look at it, stupid, and careless, but at the same time think he can handle the job? Now there is a contradiction for you! ??? They are in the minority of the Senior Council and though influential are not as loud as the minority that thinks it proves that Harry is evil or has evil intentions, and half of them only think this because Harry scares the crap out of them.. The minority who can actually speak up for Harry usually miss Council meetings, so the second minority usually carries the day with the rest of the Council. Result Harry is kicked out of the Council and it looks like if there isn't a death warrant out for him, there soon will be.
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Off topic, but I just wanted to say, that every time I read this topic, I wonder: who the hell is this Ruby Waystone they are talking about?
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... who the hell is this Ruby Waystone they are talking about?
A relative of Dorothy, from Wizard of Oz.
She tap-dances, an entertainer in the train of any of several fae nobles.
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A relative of Dorothy, from Wizard of Oz.
She tap-dances, an entertainer in the train of any of several fae nobles.
Related by marriage actually, to Dorothy's Uncle Waystone, who was Auntie Em's grandmother's brother, George.. ::)
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... it looks like if there isn't a death warrant out for him, there soon will be.
Doubtful... they are, I think, somewhat hoist upon their own petard: having kicked Harry out of the WC, they've given up their claim on him; now "Winter Knight" is his primary supernatural status.
At this point, trying to issue a death warrant on the WK could easily be construed as a declaration of war against WInter. I am quite certain that none of the Senior Council (with the possible exception of Cristos) would be willing to risk a war against Winter (and the entirety of the WC (not just the Senior, but the general membership)) remembers the terrors of the Rampire War (and recognizes that a war against Winter would be far, far worse).
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Doubtful... they are, I think, somewhat hoist upon their own petard: having kicked Harry out of the WC, they've given up their claim on him; now "Winter Knight" is his primary supernatural status.
At this point, trying to issue a death warrant on the WK could easily be construed as a declaration of war against WInter. I am quite certain that none of the Senior Council (with the possible exception of Cristos) would be willing to risk a war against Winter (and the entirety of the WC (not just the Senior, but the general membership)) remembers the terrors of the Rampire War (and recognizes that a war against Winter would be far, far worse).
Actually the Senior Council wanted it both ways.. page 372 Battle Ground
"Doesn't matter what I think," Ramirez said. "You know how broadly they interpret the First Law. And why it has to be that way. By unanimous vote, they have already given the Blackstaff the order to execute your death warrant, and suspended it. If you cross the line, they'll send him."
Unanimous vote? With at least three of the Senior Members missing? Oh just happens to be the three that would support or argue for Harry.. Anyway, their attempt to keep Harry in check, and yeah, they'd like him dead, however you are right, they don't want war with Winter, so they suspended the sentence, for now.