We already know some of them ie the GateKeeper, the Blackstaff, and the Merlin.
Im actually still uncertain how "well known" the Blackstaff position really is. Technically the only person that are confirmed to know besides McCoy and Harry is Kincaid, a seemingly immortal *Something* who's past and current employers would both have access to that sort of uber-secret knowledge. We assume that the full SC would have to know or else the "License to Lawbreak" wouldnt be feasible, and there is strong implication that Arianna knew about it given she connected the dots from the satellite attack to McCoy specifically.
But the whole concept of the Blackstaff would undermine the crap out of the Council if it were common knowledge, just as it nearly did to harry when he found out. It would very much be a guarded state secret, if not a 100% perfectly kept one.
We know there are actual outer gates, so I wonder if there is a border of life or river of time out there as well.I'd say yes to both.
I'd say yes to both.
Oceanus seems like the best bet for both. It's the ocean "river" that encircles the world. It abuts Erebos (Outside?) and the underworld (Hadesville).
Time encircling the world as a river would be symbolically fitting as a divider between order and chaos.
Eb was Blackstaff before he joined the Senior Council.Not true. He became blackstaff "in 1884-1885 somewhere in there" but was the Captain of the Wardens prior to that (during the events of Fistful of Warlocks)
Yeah, but Captain of the Wardens is not a member of the Senior Council.Eb was Blackstaff before he joined the Senior Council.Not true. He became blackstaff "in 1884-1885 somewhere in there" but was the Captain of the Wardens prior to that (during the events of Fistful of Warlocks)
I'd say yes to both.
Oceanus seems like the best bet for both. It's the ocean "river" that encircles the world. It abuts Erebos (Outside?) and the underworld (Hadesville).
Time encircling the world as a river would be symbolically fitting as a divider between order and chaos.
So Butters nailed it without even knowing it: life is a journey down the river of time, but someone left the door ajar so Outsiders could come in.It's what brought him to Uriel's attention. That keen intellect.
Are we saying that each SC seat has its own power boost. Or are we saying that each SC wizard may have their own things?
Also, the Senior Council is a geritocracy. That does not lend itself to having specific jobs on the Senior Council, because just the fact that someone is old doesn't mean they'd be competent at whatever job has opened up.
Yeah, but Captain of the Wardens is not a member of the Senior Council.Eb was Blackstaff before he joined the Senior Council.Not true. He became blackstaff "in 1884-1885 somewhere in there" but was the Captain of the Wardens prior to that (during the events of Fistful of Warlocks)
Also, the Senior Council is a geritocracy. That does not lend itself to having specific jobs on the Senior Council, because just the fact that someone is old doesn't mean they'd be competent at whatever job has opened up.Not a rigid one; there is age-based seniority, but for example McCoy was waaay down the list (took them a 1.2 hour of reading to get far enough down the list to reach him). And not only is he on the SC, he's the same age as the current Merlin.
Rashid has displayed playing around with Time... Perhaps he's more than just the Gatekeeper.Perhaps. But I'd imagine they all have only so much space in their buckets. Harry's a warden, the Warden, and the Winter Knight. Rashid is a Senior Council Member and the Gatekeeper. The latter is a full time on-call job that wouldn't allow for much in the way of other demanding positions.
Are we saying that each SC seat has its own power boost. Or are we saying that each SC wizard may have their own things?I think there's a WoJ that the Senior Council title doesn't come with a power boost. You have to have the power yourself, via blood or bargain, to even be realistically considered.
Perhaps. But I'd imagine they all have only so much space in their buckets. Harry's a warden, the Warden, and the Winter Knight. Rashid is a Senior Council Member and the Gatekeeper. The latter is a full time on-call job that wouldn't allow for much in the way of other demanding positions.I think Id argue that McCoy seems to have taken over Petrovich's War-Leader role more than Luccio or Morgan directly, once he made the SC he seemed to act as the SC leadership for the majority of Wardens.
I think there's a WoJ that the Senior Council title doesn't come with a power boost. You have to have the power yourself, via blood or bargain, to even be realistically considered.
But I like the idea of seven roles of the original Merlin being divvied up to seven others on the Council, with the original intention of it being the seven Seniors, but over time it became less structured.
How I'd imagine it:
MERLIN [title]: Leader of the Council, with no power bonus, but plenty of authority. Langtry
ANCIENT [mantle]: Living repository of magical knowledge passed down only a couple times due to the bearers' extended lifespan. Mai
GATEKEEPER [object of power]: Eye-bearer in charge of the Gates. Rashid
WARDEN [mantle]: Authority over the Well. Also in charge of punishment for law-breakers. None, then Harry
BLACKSTAFF [object of power]: Bearer of Mother Winter's staff, Council assassin. McCoy
WAR LEADER [title]: In charge of the Council's war efforts. Petrovich, then Luccio, then Morgan.
CAPTAIN [title]: Captain of the Council's police force. Perhaps run by the WARDEN at some point, leading to an overlap in name convention. Luccio.
I imagine the structure would have been cleaner and more divided originally, but over a thousand years of politics an imperfect choices lead to changes.
Not a rigid one; there is age-based seniority, but for example McCoy was waaay down the list (took them a 1.2 hour of reading to get far enough down the list to reach him). And not only is he on the SC, he's the same age as the current Merlin.Yeah, but the reasons we saw were entirely of the "not available" variety, and none were of the "Can't hack it" variety.
I think Id argue that McCoy seems to have taken over Petrovich's War-Leader role more than Luccio or Morgan directly, once he made the SC he seemed to act as the SC leadership for the majority of Wardens.I think it was explicitly said at one point that Luccio was in charge of the war effort. Eb was clearly involved, and took over the brute squad, but I think Luccio was in charge. I thought there was also a mention of Morgan doing things for Luccio after DB, but I can't recall if that was just the Wardens or not.
He hasn't done so yet, and granted, the most recent books haven't really involved the Council much, being more fae-centric, if the Warden is supposed to be in all these high level discussions, he'd have had a seat at the table during Changes.I think Changes would be the exception, seeing as he was the one that started the war they were trying to peacefully end. That wouldn't be a good time to call him in for his first session.
and there is strong implication that Arianna knew about it given she connected the dots from the satellite attack to McCoy specifically.
But the whole concept of the Blackstaff would undermine the crap out of the Council if it were common knowledge, just as it nearly did to harry when he found out. It would very much be a guarded state secret, if not a 100% perfectly kept one.
BLACKSTAFF [object of power]: Bearer of Mother Winter's staff, Council assassin. McCoy
I'm not sure the Blackstaff position started with Merlin. He may not have even still been in the picture when MW's walking stick was taken to found the office. That seems to have probably happened around Hastings too.Depends on how the Council got it. If Merlin had it, and Mother Winter expected it back from Merlin, but he found a loophole that kept it with the Council, it might not have been until Hastings that she "lost" it.
Depends on how the Council got it. If Merlin had it, and Mother Winter expected it back from Merlin, but he found a loophole that kept it with the Council, it might not have been until Hastings that she "lost" it.
But yeah, probably not.
You know one of my theories is the "Walking Stick" is actually He Who Walks Beside... Harry said that it appeared alive, and the fact that it seems to consume negative energy, and killing is an inherit part of it's power increases that belief.I used to think that too (Similar to that thing that time in Thomas Covenant), but this WOJ blew it out of the water for me:
2013 Wyrdcon Q&A
The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe. But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.
I think Changes would be the exception, seeing as he was the one that started the war they were trying to peacefully end. That wouldn't be a good time to call him in for his first session.
Not that I'm saying it's likely or anything. But I could see it being some obsolete rule that gets used in a desperate political situation.
Not sure Harry's Warden status was something that was really official until Cold Days; he didn't have any idea what it meant, and I don't know if the Merlin even knew about it.I dont think it matters, at least in the case of the Warden and likely the blackstaff. Those mantles are not, apparently, granted by the Council itself but rather by outside (supernatural) forces and simply
I think Eb and Listens-to-Wind sort of agreed to let Harry figure things out before outing him to the Senior Council—especially since Cristos joined them. He's certainly not someone they'd want to hand that kind of information to.
It may also go to someone not already in higher office. If say Langtry was Ancient Langtry, he wouldn't go by it as he is Merlin. Someone less ranked, less aged than he may adopt the moniker.Nah, I think it would pretty much have to go tot the literal eldest, regardless of other rank. Im assuming, for example, that being the Ancient does not guarantee you a seat on the SC, any more than being Blackstaff or Capt of the Warden's does.
I used to think that too (Similar to that thing that time in Thomas Covenant), but this WOJ blew it out of the water for me:The thing about that woj though, is it's connected to said powers, it makes no mention if said powers are themselves sentient... Look at the wolf belts, they channel a spirit of rage, they are literally described as an insulation. Compare that to Macfinn who's manifestation lacks any insulation between the two, creating a... 4 dimensional being metaphorically speaking. I think He can tap those powers until there is no insulation(think here of the insulation of mantles from the conscious mind) between the two
The thing about that woj though, is it's connected to said powers, it makes no mention if said powers are themselves sentient... Look at the wolf belts, they channel a spirit of rage, they are literally described as an insulation. Compare that to Macfinn who's manifestation lacks any insulation between the two, creating a... 4 dimensional being metaphorically speaking. I think He can tap those powers until there is no insulation(think here of the insulation of mantles from the conscious mind) between the twoOh sure Im quite confident the Powers it is connected to is sentient (in general and especially since I think it's Mother Winter). But Groinkick was theorizing that the staff itself was sentient and specifically was a Walker doing a really good Stick Impression. The WOJ /does/ specify that the object itself, the Blackstaff, is not itself sentient. Even the Gates are more sentient than that according to at least one WOJ.other stuff I've talked about before... the Farmer, the Scything motion of the cattle, ect.(click to show/hide)
Oh sure Im quite confident the Powers it is connected to is sentient (in general and especially since I think it's Mother Winter). But Groinkick was theorizing that the staff itself was sentient and specifically was a Walker doing a really good Stick Impression. The WOJ /does/ specify that the object itself, the Blackstaff, is not itself sentient. Even the Gates are more sentient than that according to at least one WOJ.That's not you thinking it's connected to MW as her walking stick is it? Cause the thing is, it's still just a stick in her hands then and she's not missing anything. Except she's rather crippled and needed it to get around, giving it something unique over her own self as well. The cosmic power inherent in it seems to me to allow her to travel vs anything she's already capable of. Something in somewhat contradiction to how Eb utilizes it... Thoughts on that one?
That's not you thinking it's connected to MW as her walking stick is it? Cause the thing is, it's still just a stick in her hands then and she's not missing anything. Except she's rather crippled and needed it to get around, giving it something unique over her own self as well. The cosmic power inherent in it seems to me to allow her to travel vs anything she's already capable of. Something in somewhat contradiction to how Eb utilizes it... Thoughts on that one?
That's not a bad representation of it I think.There's a WOJ that the Knight Mantles are more of a Created thing, something carved off the Immortal's mantle. The WOJ in question confirmed that the Erlking could absolutely make a Knight if he wanted, though it would be significantly less powerful that the Winter Knight who has 3 queens contributing.
Imo since black magic is not part of the natural order and usual source of magic it's in fact not represented Inside reality but sponsored from an idea formulated from the outside. Like the entropy curse that summons Hwwbh, it's associated and utilized through things fundamentally part of reality, but the power and entities it calls on are not(no longer? never pulled inside? Somehow kept separate even though they can manifest inside?) part of reality.
And I do think part of that source is Nemesis herself. The fae are all about being a fundamentally part of magic itself, if magic itself is the key... and Fae changing when they should not be able to is the effect, then i'd say the things that eventually replace warlocks are the same things trying to replace the fae.
As to the Stick, I agree. I've always read the scene were she proclaims "not my knight." to be a literal statement.
Imo the Knights come from part of the overall breaking down of a singular Grace into layered Mantles. The Knight's basically represent the good or bad lever of choice that angels actually possess. Though that might not be the best example. The WK seems to be Mab's mortal choice/spiritual connection. Where as WL has one inside being actively subsumed allowing her to make electives like trying to change the method of getting Sidhe soldiers. And for MW... idk, cause i'd say the with the Sitck she can Baba Yaga it up and go anywhere, eat anything. Though i'd still say it has an original identity attached to it, the Knight whom was Before.
..Which reminds me, Sentient is a bad word here cause most supernatural spirits can no longer be described that way though they can talk and interact like it. Forget sentience, does it have an identity?It's not "Sentience" itself that derail's things in my experience, it's getting it confused with the DV's very specific definition of "Free Will".
2015 Grid Daily interview
The Gate seems like something that, if it didn’t start with a consciousness, would develop it over time. Is that the case?
It probably is, but the consciousness of an inanimate object like that is mostly like that of a mountain. “I AM HERE.” And it’s just increasingly aware of its here-ness. The Gate actually exists very differently than what Harry saw, but that’s how Harry has to interpret it because it’s far out in the Nevernever. Your mind has to put things into terms it can understand or you go squirrely. Harry’s got a very good mind for reducing things to simple ideas. Which most of the Senior Council would say with a roll of their eyes.
Not true. He became blackstaff "in 1884-1885 somewhere in there" but was the Captain of the Wardens prior to that (during the events of Fistful of Warlocks)
Come on, pal. Think... he had to beat out Klaus at the start of Summer Knight. Remember? The Merlin had 3 plans and the first was replacing the guy from Archangel, Simon Petrovich.Wow, nice work necromancer :P
Yeah, but Captain of the Wardens is not a member of the Senior Council.Eb was Blackstaff before he joined the Senior Council.Not true. He became blackstaff "in 1884-1885 somewhere in there" but was the Captain of the Wardens prior to that (during the events of Fistful of Warlocks)
Sorry, my brain completely blanked over the word "Senior" this morning, thought they were saying he was Blackstaff before joining the Council (as a whole) in the first place. There just wasnt enough blood in my Caffeine System.... :P