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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: spiritofair on October 10, 2020, 12:47:23 AM
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At the very end of Battle Ground, Harry describes Maggie as hugging him with uncommon strength. At the beginning of Christmas Story, Maggie's favorite color is red.
Harry and Susan conceived of Maggie whoe Susan was infected by the Red Court's demon or whatever you want to call it. Maggie is Susan's daughter. We don't know. As far as I can tell, if red court vampirism is transmissable by birth. If so, Maggie should have died when Susan did.
But those two lines from the end of Battle Ground and beginning of Christmas Story sure do seem to foreshadow Maggie having some Red blood in her. Maybe she didn't die because she also has Starborn blood in her.
I mean, wouldn't it be strange if Maggie was a normal wizard (even weirder if due was a normal human) considering her parents???
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IIRC, the CI spell was towards the sides and upstream, what means that killing Susan won't kill Maggie by the spell itself. Then, if you consider the vampires themselves, Susan was the newest vampire so, worst case scenario (Maggie being infected, like Susan before her complete transformation), the vampire part would have done at the moment, leaving only a human girl. That was what happened with the other infected people.
Still, I admit that the two things you highlight seem to be hinting something. I just don't know what.
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Children can hug you very hard, even if it weren't all that hard, a parent might describe it as such.
Now Susan was half turned when Maggie was conceived and born, however even if she was infected though the placenta and was in effect a vampire or part vampire, that aspect of her would have died when Harry reversed that spell. The vampire part of the half turned simply died, and they became full human once more. So at this moment I'd say that little Maggie is all human.
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The fact that My Shadow (and whomever sent him) was apparently 'interested in her future' is kinda telling.
While I don't think she was a Red Infected like Susan, being born to a half-ramp almost has to have done something to her.
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She most probably has the wizard talent. Even Uriel talked about it when he said foo dogs have a long life span, long enough to stay with Maggie her whole life if She is a wizard.
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I seem to recall Jim saying somewhere that Maggie was born of a half-turned Red Court vamp and a wizard, and that it would be weird if there wasn't something interesting/weird about her ... but naturally, I can't find that quote now.
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I seem to recall Jim saying somewhere that Maggie was born of a half-turned Red Court vamp and a wizard, and that it would be weird if there wasn't something interesting/weird about her ... but naturally, I can't find that quote now.
Yeah, well, we have hints from the Zoo short story that she has talent. Isn't she supposed to go to
a school that is sort of like Hogwarts at some point according to Jim?
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I would be more concerned with what the Leansidhe extracted as a promise from Margaret. If it was her first female issue, that would be Maggie. WOJ has that Lea did extract a promise and if it something like this, when Harry finds out he is going to want to kill Lea.
Another WOJ has it that Maggie will have magic, but not as we expect.
My guess? Lea has been looking for a successor and Maggie is her pick. She has form as this is exactly what she did with Margaret (Molly) Carpenter, and it may not be in anticipation of her death, but Mab’s that Lea is a backup to prevent Molly assuming the Winter Queens Mantle prematurely. The “Kill Molly” instruction in Battleground firmed that up in my mind, with Lara groomed as a backup, backup. Experience is required in the Winter Queen with the BAT coming and both Lea and Lara would make a much better Winter Queen than Molly for at least the next decade.
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I would be more concerned with what the Leansidhe extracted as a promise from Margaret. If it was her first female issue, that would be Maggie. WOJ has that Lea did extract a promise and if it something like this, when Harry finds out he is going to want to kill Lea.
Another WOJ has it that Maggie will have magic, but not as we expect.
My guess? Lea has been looking for a successor and Maggie is her pick. She has form as this is exactly what she did with Margaret (Molly) Carpenter, and it may not be in anticipation of her death, but Mab’s that Lea is a backup to prevent Molly assuming the Winter Queens Mantle prematurely. The “Kill Molly” instruction in Battleground firmed that up in my mind, with Lara groomed as a backup, backup. Experience is required in the Winter Queen with the BAT coming and both Lea and Lara would make a much better Winter Queen than Molly for at least the next decade.
Perhaps, but Molly/Harry have shown that they can be a pretty formidable team, and I got the sense that Molly is going to try and do her best to get him out of that wedding.
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The curse in Changes wouldn't have effected Maggie. That's why it was important that she was the youngest ramp.
I seem to recall Jim saying somewhere that Maggie was born of a half-turned Red Court vamp and a wizard, and that it would be weird if there wasn't something interesting/weird about her ... but naturally, I can't find that quote now.
I remember him saying implying that Susan being half turned would affect Maggie in some way. As is often the case, iirc, he didn't outright state it.
with Lara groomed as a backup, backup.
Mab is planning on having Lara marry the Winter Knight. The Winter Knight has been described as consort to the Queens.
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The curse in Changes wouldn't have effected Maggie. That's why it was important that she was the youngest ramp.
But she wasn't, Susan was. All the Red Court vamps descend from the Red King, so when she was turned, Susan was the youngest, when Harry killed her, it killed all the Red Court Vamp genes up the line, those who were part turned more or less, it killed the Red Court part, if they were young enough and healthy enough, their now fully human lives moved on. Even if little Maggie was part vamp, that part would have died, and she is now fully human. Yes, as she learns about what happened to her mother and her father's part in her death it is going to affect her, but not because there is some lingering Red Court Vamp in her body.
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My WAG is that Maggie is set up to marry a dragon.
It was supposed to be Charity but she rejected her magic and went with Michael. Then it would have been Molly. I think that was the other purpose Mab was grooming her for mentioned in CD. Now that will fall on Maggie, Probably in the next to last book before the BAT, there's time for the the Dresdenverse to advance six to 8 years and make her a teen bride. Charity had to be pretty young, 20-21 at most, whrn Siriothrax carried he off.
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But she wasn't, Susan was.
Sorry. Unclear antecedent. By she I meant Susan, not Maggie.
Even if little Maggie was part vamp, that part would have died.
I'm not so sure about that. My question is how. Were there any "half-turned" younger than Susan? Was someone turned after GP who resisted until Changes? If so, would the curse affect them as they were younger than Susan? Susan was the youngest full vamp. She wasn't necessarily the youngest half-turned.
We could end up with more ramps because there were younger half-turned. There wouldn't have been many. Justine didn't know such a thing existed in GP. I imagine they're rare.
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I'm not so sure about that. My question is how. Were there any "half-turned" younger than Susan? Was someone turned after GP who resisted until Changes? If so, would the curse affect them as they were younger than Susan? Susan was the youngest full vamp. She wasn't necessarily the youngest half-turned.
Timing is everything, not saying it is impossible and some other half turned decided to rip someone's throat out in anger a second after Susan and be the youngest, or somehow became half turned.. But if that happened, the curse reversal just wouldn't have happened. The moment she became full, Susan was the newest, thus the youngest, Harry killed her seconds after and the whole Red Court line from her to the Red King died.
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Timing is everything, not saying it is impossible and some other half turned decided to rip someone's throat out in anger a second after Susan and be the youngest, or somehow became half turned.. But if that happened, the curse reversal just wouldn't have happened. The moment she became full, Susan was the newest, thus the youngest, Harry killed her seconds after and the whole Red Court line from her to the Red King died.
It might have skipped that newest one but the rest would be toast anyway.
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It might have skipped that newest one but the rest would be toast anyway.
I don't think so, if I understand the curse correctly, the only way to trigger the domino effect through the generation of a family is to kill the youngest/newest. Now there is some speculation that there might have been a few in the Nevernever that the reverse curse may have missed, but none on this side.
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I don't think so, if I understand the curse correctly, the only way to trigger the domino effect through the generation of a family is to kill the youngest/newest. Now there is some speculation that there might have been a few in the Nevernever that the reverse curse may have missed, but none on this side.
As I understood it the curse crawls up but not down. They could have sacrificed Harry to get Eb. The reason Harry told Susan she was the youngest is that they could get all of them
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As I understood it the curse crawls up but not down.
That's my understanding as well.
Timing is everything, not saying it is impossible and some other half turned decided to rip someone's throat out in anger a second after Susan and be the youngest, or somehow became half turned.
I think you're missing what I'm saying. If somebody got half-turned in Summer Knight, then they're a younger half-ramp than Susan was, so it's possible their ramp half counted as younger than Susan the ramp. They could still be a half ramp, or they could have succumbed to the thirst after Changes and become a full ramp.
There's nothing Jim's said or written that says this can't be the case, so if he decides to reintroduce ramps this way, he can. It's not foreclosed.
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It depends on what kind of reset/rebirth the conversion to full Ramp represents.
And also whether the curse moves laterally before vertically. Being a newborn Ramp may have made her sibling for a brief window to all fetal Ramps.
JB was clear that the Reds, unless somewhere the curse couldn't touch them, were gone, and the half-ramps were de-halved, with those who would still be alive as mortals surviving. Instead of arguing that the author is wrong given an interpretation, maybe look for the interpretation that matches the author's statement on the matter.
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Didn't someone say that all the half-vamps (St. Jiles) died as a result of what Harry did? Or am I imagining that?
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Most of them did. The youngest went back to being mortal with ripping tattoos. Depends on whether their mortal half could survive once the vampire half died. Rather sounded like aging caught up with them all at once.
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Didn't someone say that all the half-vamps (St. Jiles) died as a result of what Harry did? Or am I imagining that?
Yeah, that was the reason that Hannah Asher had a revenge boner for Harry. We also saw a bunch of them after Chicken Pizza:
The Red Court was dead. Gone. Every one of them. Most of the remains were little more than black sludge. That, I thought, marked the dead vampires. The half-breeds, though, only lost the vampire parts of their nature. The curse had cured them.
Of course, it was the vampire inside them that had kept them young and beautiful.
I saw hundreds of people on the ground aging a year for every one of my breaths. I watched them wither away to nothing, for the most part. It seemed that half-breeds came in a couple of flavors - those who had managed to discipline their thirst for blood, and thus carried on for centuries, and those who had not been half-vampires for very long. Very few of the latter had ranked in the Red King's Court. It turned out that most of the young half vampires had been working for the Fellowship, and many had already been killed by the Reds - but I heard later that more than two hundred others had been freed from their curse.
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Yeah, that was the reason that Hannah Asher had a revenge boner for Harry. We also saw a bunch of them after Chicken Pizza:
Thank you. That's exactly the conversation I was thinking of.
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I think you're missing what I'm saying. If somebody got half-turned in Summer Knight, then they're a younger half-ramp than Susan was, so it's possible their ramp half counted as younger than Susan the ramp. They could still be a half ramp, or they could have succumbed to the thirst after Changes and become a full ramp.
I get what you are saying, however a half vamp, isn't a vamp, in fact as the Order of St Giles showed, more human than vamp. Lose it and kill, then all vamp. That is how the curse worked, it didn't matter that there might be more recent half vamps around, they don't count as vamps. Susan was the latest to become ALL vamp, thus she was the youngest, when Harry cut her throat, the dominoes began to fall.
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I get what you are saying, however a half vamp, isn't a vamp, in fact as the Order of St Giles showed, more human than vamp. Lose it and kill, then all vamp. That is how the curse worked, it didn't matter that there might be more recent half vamps around, they don't count as vamps. Susan was the latest to become ALL vamp, thus she was the youngest, when Harry cut her throat, the dominoes began to fall.
Well actually they do count. Sort off. Their vampire part is killed by the curse so that must be somewhere in the mechanism.
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Well actually they do count. Sort off. Their vampire part is killed by the curse so that must be somewhere in the mechanism.
Yeah, they count in the dominoes falling, the genetic material or what ever it was the Red Vamps passed on died. But they didn't count as vampires till they became vampires. It is kind of like caterpillars and butterflies.. Killing the caterpillar or a cocoon is killing a butterfly, but not at the moment you do it.. Once the butterfly emerges, even if it's wings aren't dry yet, is now a butterfly and that is what you are killing.
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JB was clear that the Reds, unless somewhere the curse couldn't touch them, were gone, and the half-ramps were de-halved, with those who would still be alive as mortals surviving. Instead of arguing that the author is wrong given an interpretation, maybe look for the interpretation that matches the author's statement on the matter.
I don't recall that WoJ. I do recall him saying they're "effectively" gone.
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I don't recall that WoJ. I do recall him saying they're "effectively" gone.
Yup, unless I believe a couple were in the Nevernever at the time, they may have been passed over. I think there is a WOJ for that but don't hold me to it.
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There's definitely one about the remote reaches of the Nevernever. It was vague enough to neither confirm or deny whether the Eebs and their crew were alive.
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There's definitely one about the remote reaches of the Nevernever. It was vague enough to neither confirm or deny whether the Eebs and their crew were alive.
Which is what I said- they'd have to be somewhere the curse couldn't touch them. His example was being in the remote reaches of the NeverNever.