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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: The Codex on June 11, 2010, 12:14:45 PM
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OK interesting questions,
I want to create a NPC of a Warlock who uses animated agents against the Player Characters.
I think that Summoning and Binding would be the best way to do this, but how would you work out the power and abilites for the Constructs?
Would I use the number of Shifts to determin the extra 'fate points' that can be spent on developing creatures using the initial difficult for developing a base line of the abilities?
Not sure what the best way to do this is......
Cheers (actually this would be useful for one of my characters as well who wants to play a Necromancer, doh)
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The power level isn't mechanically determined. Summoning isn't a Build A Creature program, it calls up existing creatures with a specific power set of their own.
For an NPC, this means that you just build them to be whatever kind of challenge you want them to be for the PCs.
For PCs, it's a bit more complicated and opinions differ on exactly how it should work, but a good way of looking at it is that Summoning is a magical version of a Contacts roll to contact a very real 'person' of some sort. The creatures should have a clear personality, Aspects, and goals of their own (even if those goals just involve devouring as many people as possible) and be statted appropriately. A PC with high Contacts and Resources can hire bodyguards and hit men, handle this the way you'd handle that.
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So the creatures are not themselves thinking and motivated, they only follow the orders that were given at creation.
So would it be more of a conjuration/Item Creation/Transformation
Not sure that acting as a contact is what I want. Its aspects are probably going to be the commands it is given and its creature types....
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We ran into a powerful Construct in our game, I'm fairly sure she was generated as a NPC, she was made by a now insane warlock, who used powers from beyond the gates to make her and then bind her "mind/soul/Control thing" in an amulet. She had a full set supernatural physical abilities I'm pretty sure, and her amulet was a item of power that raised lore, conviction and discipline it also contained a whole lot of stored knowledge of stuff from beyond the gates (Oops!). She was also intrinsically linked to the local Ley Lines.
But yeah i'd just generate them as NPC, give them some BA powers and deiced how they are controlled, make sure you give them a good catch, something achievable.
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Yeah, allow me to third the suggestion that you don't worry about the mechanics of construct creation if the constructs in question are agents of an enemy. Just build as any other NPC with the powers and aspects you're looking for.
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Ok so from an NPC form I really don't need to worry about ;D
What would people recommend from a PC character that wants to create constructs to use as agents of his own?
As this is an Idea a character wants to use....
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Emissary of Power. Ye oldie catch all.
Figure out what Power decided he/she/it wanted a walking magic robot
Throw something on there to make the character not human (Human Guise?). Sprinkle on some inhuman/supernaturals, find a catch that fits. And I'd say your good to go.
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Ahhh Sorry,
To Clarify I want the PC wants to be able to create Golems, Gargoyles and alike.....
Just really unsure how to do this with the rules.....
(Actually he wants to create animated toys as his servants 'Toymancer', working on the name, so would have a huge stuffed bear with claws.....example)
anyway thats the problem I am unsure how you build constructs (as a PC)...
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Toy-a-mancer hmmm . . .
. . .with a giant stuffed bear?
. . .and it has claws?
so would this be a character portrait?
(http://www.dandossantos.com/gallery/illustrations/full_scarebear.jpg)
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Mayhaps port over the Minion tree from SotC, give it a Refresh cost and have at it?
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Ahhh Sorry,
To Clarify I want the PC wants to be able to create Golems, Gargoyles and alike.....
Just really unsure how to do this with the rules.....
(Actually he wants to create animated toys as his servants 'Toymancer', working on the name, so would have a huge stuffed bear with claws.....example)
anyway thats the problem I am unsure how you build constructs (as a PC)...
First, find out what kind of construct he wants to make (OW 29) and give the ritual for making it a complexity based on how obediant it will be, how intelligent it is, how many powers/stunts it has, how long it will stay around, and how skilled it is. You'll have to wing the complexity level, but for something that is both powerful (more than 4 points of powers) and obediant, I'd definitely put the complexity in the double digits.
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I don't really think summoning works to well for this. It should be a specialty under summoning but that doesn't tell us how long said minions would last, what they would do, how many you could control. We don't even really have a good idea how strong it is. The books example would be like the snake or the pixies. But I'd still be uncomfortable with that low a level of system control give that this is going to be this guys main trick.
The Minion stunts maybe to strong, but they do fit the concept.
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Bubba love the picture (have shown to my player now he wants one.....)
ok so here is my question could i create a construct by using the following:
using the method for summoning binding, create a ward/vessel/shell of the construct, physical stress determind by crafting quality of the object used as the shell. The ward for containing the summoned energies is the mental stress the construct can take before the energies are disappated.
then summoning the energies defines the refresh of the animated creature and its powers (possibly needing demonic co pilot if you want a thinking creature not just following basic orders) .
Finally you bind the creature this defines the duration of the creature and how much control you have over it.....
anyway would appreciate the help of thoose with better understanding of the rules to define this a bit more...
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Bubba love the picture (have shown to my player now he wants one.....)
ok so here is my question could i create a construct by using the following:
using the method for summoning binding, create a ward/vessel/shell of the construct, physical stress determind by crafting quality of the object used as the shell. The ward for containing the summoned energies is the mental stress the construct can take before the energies are disappated.
then summoning the energies defines the refresh of the animated creature and its powers (possibly needing demonic co pilot if you want a thinking creature not just following basic orders) .
Finally you bind the creature this defines the duration of the creature and how much control you have over it.....
anyway would appreciate the help of thoose with better understanding of the rules to define this a bit more...
I would definitely NOT do it that way.
A construct, as I think I'm understanding your meaning, is nothing more than a creation that does what you say.
It's not a summoned being, you're looking in the wrong place. Look, instead, to enchanted items. That's really what you're doing, right? Enchanting the construct's body.
So spend one enchanted slot on each thing you want it to do. For example, say you have a lore of 3, and you are making a butler construct. Spend one slot on making sure it can move (1-shift, 3 uses per session), and one slot on cleaning (2-shifts, 2 uses per session).
If you want to go hog-wild and make it uber awesome, don't forget to give it a few aspects (per YS252, it costs 3 shifts per aspect), and a slot or two for attacks and defenses.
Don't forget to ask your GM if it counts as a second character, or if it takes your actions to control it (there are many GMs of each type out there). Nothing sucks more than assuming one thing, and having the GM think totally different.
Just my 2-cents.
-EF
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Thank you eldritch.
Can you help me out by giving me an example of a enchanted guard dog statue for example. Just so I can understand how this works.
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The term "Puppetmancer" comes to my mind...
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Glad you like the picture Dos Santos has great work.
I have read through the posts and wonder if you perhaps I could put a spin on this.
If I understand you are trying to create a guy, that has created a big bad Golem. Lets look at it another way.
Build the Golem as the Character and attach a person to him.
This could lead to some interesting Roleplaying and adventures.
Golem's maker dies.
Golem gains self awareness.
Golem becomes controlled by BBEG.
Any number of fun things.
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I'll be using this HR:
The Summoning Rituals (Demons or Magical Constructs) Complexity is Refresh cost x 2*.
(Containment and Binding Ritual is be still based of Conviction)
for Summoning and Binding.
Rename Summoning into Building and Binding into Powering Up.
* May change into X + (Refresh x 2) or Refresh x 3, after play started and current rule is to powerfull.
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Hi Korwin,
Thats really helpful could you give me an example of how this would work. I am trying to learn the system to DM so trying to absorb as much knowledge as possible so a practical example would really help.
Thanks again (I will try and work this out again but it would help to see how some one else would do it)
cheers
The Codex
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Here, How to Summon and Bind an Demon (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17543.0.html), per (as far as I can tell) Rules as written.
I would change the Complexity of the Summoning Ritual as per my above House Rule.
For Constructs, I would increase the time needed for the Summoning (Building of the Construct).
And in exchange it wouldnt get you Enemies as easily as Summoning real Demons.
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Genius....
I that really helps Think I have it will have a play with this system and maybe post example of building two possible constructs:
Golems and Gargoyles (just as a starting point)
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Inspired by some of the WoD Mage rules, to create a truly autonomous construct (i.e. it's not tied to enchanted item slots) you could sacrifice refresh points? In flavour terms that'd be giving it free will by giving it a portion of your own soul/humanity.
It's sort of the equivalent to having an item of power, only it's only that you've created and then given away.
Perhaps not quite relevant to the toymancer, but I thought I'd throw the idea into the melting pot. It should work for items of power that are created by the PC rather than just found, especially autonomous items like talking swords (or Bob's skull), constructed familiars and Weaponised Teddybear's of Fury (WTF's).
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Ok thank you all for all your help.
A combination of all the above has lead to the creation of one of the major NPC for the campaign (not posted here incase my players look ;D)
However I will tell you some of the thing and post some ideas below once I have typed them all up properly and tested them to make sure they are not broken.
First after reading through my copy of SoC I had completely forgotten about minions. Most of the big bads refresh is taken up by minion slots representing his run of the mill constructs (from this point forward known as flesh golems....icky, Black Knights, and Gargoyles)
Also if there is a particular nasty Creations I have in mind, will be "created" via a home brew version of the summoning and bindng peice based on some of Korwins Ideas. This is because he will not always have access to this minion and is more of a one off, for an end scene or as a specific macguffin for a senario.....
any way off to the artificars workshop..... i have golems to finish
;D
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I know this is a bit of a necro, but I figure anyone who wants easy to access Construct rules can just copy paste below.
Here's my summary of the construct rules, at least for permanent constructs, pretty much directly adapted from the SotC SRD:
Stunts (Assuming -1 Refresh each, but since I'm not super familiar with SotC, it could be -2?):
Minion Constructs
You have minion constructs– lots of them. As a default, in a scene, you may have the bare minimum of minions easily on hand – two or three of Average quality.
You may make three upgrades to improve your minions, spent at the point you bring them into the scene. Each upgrade either by adds three more to their number, or boosts the quality of three of them by one step (no minion can be more than Good quality).
This stunt may be taken multiple times to increase the starting number of minions (taking it twice means you start out with five or six of Average quality) and the number of upgrades (taking it twice also means you have six upgrades). You must spend all of your upgrades at the start of the scene when you bring in your minions, but you needn’t bring them all in right away.
Minion Rules:
Minions may be either Average, Fair or Good quality. This quality denotes their base effectiveness in one sort of conflict (physical, social or mental), as well as their capacity for stress. Average minions can take one box of stress, Fair can take two, and Good can take three.
The quantity of minions is simply the number of minions present, but together, minions act in one or more groups, each of which is treated as single characters in a conflict. Minions who act together as a group are much more effective than individual minions. When there are two or three minions in a group, the group receives a +1 bonus to act and react. If there are four to six minions in a group, the bonus is +2; seven to nine minions get a +3 bonus, and any single group with ten or more members gets +4.
When minions take stress, it is applied sequentially (i .e ., filling all boxes instead of just a single one). Damage that overflows one minion is applied to the next minion. This means a solid enough effort can take out an entire swath of minions. If all the minions are killed and the leader is attached to the group of minions, the leader takes any overflow stress.
When a character takes an action (an attack or a maneuver) against groups of minions, he will occasionally succeed by far more than anticipated. This leaves him in a situation where he has a large number of “wasted” shifts. These surplus shifts are called overflow, and can be used in an immediate, follow-up action so long as it’s not as another attack or other offensive maneuver. To put it simply, overflow is used to take supplemental actions.
One of the main uses for minions is to improve the effectiveness of their leader. Whenever a character and a group of minions are attacking the same target, they are considered to be attached. This has two benefits for the leader: he receives a bonus based on the group size (including him), and damage is applied to minions before it’s applied to him. It has no benefits for the minions, who give up their ability to act independently, but that’s more or less their job (see the Leadership skill for more, page XX). Leaving or attaching to a group is a free action, and a character may detach from a group automatically by moving away from it.
Combat Reenchantment
Requires Minion Constructs
During a fight, you may spend a fate point to call in reinforcements. The reinforcements show up at the beginning of the next exchange. You may replace up to half your lost minions by doing so.
Companion Construct
You must take this stunt two or three times.
You have a single, exceptional companion construct. It is Fair quality, and has two free advances (that, of course, make sense within the context of the construct's creation).
This stunt must be taken multiple times, either two or three, in order to build an exceptionally capable companion construct. Taken twice, this stunt lets you define 4 advances beyond the two free base advances. Taken three times, the stunt allows you to define 2 additional advances and, in addition, promote your construct to Good quality. If you’ve already promoted your construct to Good quality, you may take a different advance.
Companion Rules:
Companions are attached to named characters in the same way minion groups are, and grant a +1 in appropriate conflicts due to group size. Companions (assumably when attached to characters) do not have stress boxes, like minions do; instead, they give the character the ability to withstand an additional (assumably mild) consequence – specifically, the consequence that the Companion is taken out, kidnapped, or otherwise removed from the conflict. A companion, like a minion, can only assist in one type (physical, mental, social) of conflict.
A companion can have a number of advances, with each advance making her more capable. An advance can do one of the following:
Quality: Improve the quality of a companion by one step (from Average to Fair, Fair to Good, and so on). This advance may be taken several times up to the companion’s maximum quality, one step lower than that of her master (depending on the 'water level' of the campaign).
Scope: Improve the scope of a companion, allowing them to assist in an additional type of conflict (e.g., Physical and Mental, Physical and Social, Social and Mental). This may be taken twice, allowing the companion to be effective in all three scopes.
Independant: The companion is able to act independently of her partner, assumably with a greater AI than the limit of simple constructs, allowing the character to send the companion off to perform tasks. An independent companion is treated as a minion if she’s caught out on her own (quality in this case indicates her capacity for stress, like with minions), and is not useful for much unless she’s also skilled (see below).
Skilled: The companion may buy skills of her own. If attached, the companion may use these skills on behalf of her partner, instead of the partner using his skill at his rating. If the companion has also taken the Independent advance (above), the Skilled advance the companion can also use these skills when not attached. One advance can buy one skill at the companion’s quality, two skills at quality -1, or three skills at quality -2. The Skilled advance can be bought multiple times, but a different skill or set of skills must be chosen each time.
Keeping Up: If the companion’s patron has a means of locomotion or stealth that makes it hard for the companion to keep up with him, then the companion with this advance has a similar ability, but it is useful only for keeping up with her patron when attached, and for no other purpose.
Communication: The companion is able to communicate with her patron via the magical bond. This isn’t a guarantee on the occasion that the GM decides to short out the method of communication. Still, GMs should think twice before cutting off a character from his companion, when this advance is in play.