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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JayTee on June 24, 2014, 08:06:32 AM

Title: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 24, 2014, 08:06:32 AM
Some faith powers I've cooked up. Do note that I do not have the greatest mechanical chops with this system, so consider these powers to be a rough draft. Critique is more than welcome in order to get them in to a place thats balanced in the game and represents the idea that I'm going for.


The goals in mind with these powers were

1: To give True Believers a set of powers that would grow stronger with the character, letting them continue to operate alongside Casters and Shapeshifters (the two most common player types, I've found) and their continuing applications of Refinement of adding on more creature features.

2: Find some way to mechanically emulate the effects we see or hear about in the books, but aren't really possible at the moment with the current powerset (Murphy carving her way through a sea of vampires in Changes, Michael facing down a dragon and winning)

3: Find a way to produce the former two while keeping in mind how faith powers are usually represented in the books: "Coincidence is on my side", as commented on several times by Harry and seen a few times. "Subtle but very powerful", we rarely see very many flashy displays of holy power, but we see a lot of True Faith people doing a lot of crazy awesome stuff. "works best against the supernatural", it's been a general theme that faith powers are really meant as a force multiplier against non-mortal forces, and his largely important against people with free will.



Providence tries to invoke the feelings of "Coincidence is on my side" and "subtle put powerful".  It's also meant to work alongside the Righteousness and Holy Touch powers, letting you spend Fate Points on things that you really want to spend them on, rather than things you have to spend them on in order to get the most out of your powers.

Providence -X
Description:
Your choices and beliefs have a profound impact, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Righteousness and Holy Touch.
Skills affected: Varies
Effects:
The world abides the believer
Belief has a powerful effect on the world. For every 2 points of refresh spent on this power, you may gain 1 free expenditure of a Fate Point per scene.
Walking my chosen path -1
Focusing on your goal, you find it a much easier road to walk. Whenever you make a roll that is affected by Righteousness, you may make an additional roll to place a Conviction aspect on the scene that is somehow related to what you are doing to be used on your next turn.





Grace Against the Dark likewise tries to invoke the feeling of "subtle but powerful" but with a much greater focus on "works best against the supernatural". It's intentionally very powerful, but completely useless against regular mortals.

Grace Against the Dark [-5]
Description:
Mortals who leave the safety of their homes may find themselves buoyed by the knowledge that a strong spirit can make all the difference when facing the unknown terrors of the world.
Musts: You must have taken Righteousness and Holy Touch.
Skills affected: Varies
Effects:
The Darkness Yields
Though the workings of the wicked may conspire against you, your faith will see you through. When faced with supernatural forces opposing your path chosen by Righteousness, you may add half your Conviction (round down) to your dice rolls.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Haru on June 24, 2014, 09:53:03 AM
Providence tries to invoke the feelings of "Coincidence is on my side" and "subtle put powerful".  It's also meant to work alongside the Righteousness and Holy Touch powers, letting you spend Fate Points on things that you really want to spend them on, rather than things you have to spend them on in order to get the most out of your powers.

Providence -X
Description:
Your choices and beliefs have a profound impact, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Righteousness and Holy Touch.
Skills affected: Varies
Effects:
The world abides the believer
Belief has a powerful effect on the world. For every 2 points of refresh spent on this power, you may gain 1 free expenditure of a Fate Point per scene.
This feels like it would become a simple mathematical exercise in order to find the sweet spot for the power to get the maximum usage out of it. I don't like powers like that very much, and it doesn't feel like it would accomplish what you've set out to do.

The "coincidence is on my side" thing seems to be part of "guide my hand" rather than righteousness or holy touch. Especially when it comes to "faith manages". In that regard, it feels like you are looking for the faith powers version of refinement.
So I think I would do something like this:

Providence [-1]
Description:
Your choices and beliefs have a profound impact, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide my Hand and Holy Touch
Skills affected: Conviction
Effects:
Faith moves Mountains: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you either get 2 free uses of "Faith Manages" or you may increase your Conviction by 1 when rolling for "Faith Manages". You may take this power multiple times, but the bonus to your Conviction may not exceed your original rating.

You could extend the free uses to "Guide my Hand" as a whole, so you could use the fortuitous arrival part more often as well. I would say the uses should replenish similar to enchanted items.

Quote
Walking my chosen path -1
Focusing on your goal, you find it a much easier road to walk. Whenever you make a roll that is affected by Righteousness, you may make an additional roll to place a Conviction aspect on the scene that is somehow related to what you are doing to be used on your next turn.
Not a fan of additional rolls. And another thing that I think is an important part of the true believer: choice. You even got that in the name of this power. My suggestion:

Walking my chosen path -1
When your Righteousness would allow your conviction to complement a roll, you may forgo the bonus. If your roll still succeeds, you may place a fragile aspect on yourself, reflecting the power of your faith.

This would mean that you have to make the choice to not take a bonus now and risk failure, but you'd end up doubling your bonus when you succeed.

Quote
Grace Against the Dark likewise tries to invoke the feeling of "subtle but powerful" but with a much greater focus on "works best against the supernatural". It's intentionally very powerful, but completely useless against regular mortals.

Grace Against the Dark [-5]
Description:
Mortals who leave the safety of their homes may find themselves buoyed by the knowledge that a strong spirit can make all the difference when facing the unknown terrors of the world.
Musts: You must have taken Righteousness and Holy Touch.
Skills affected: Varies
Effects:
The Darkness Yields
Though the workings of the wicked may conspire against you, your faith will see you through. When faced with supernatural forces opposing your path chosen by Righteousness, you may add half your Conviction (round down) to your dice rolls.
Hmm...
A faith type character will likely have a conviction of 4-5 in most games, which would translate to a constant +2. +3 in any game that has unlocked the +6 skill level. 5 refresh is pretty expensive, but a constant +2 is enormously powerful as well. I would almost say gamebreakingly so. And it doesn't feel too subtle, to be honest.
And from a GMs perspective, if a player character has a constant +2 to everything he does, I would start to throw out opponents that are simply 2 steps better than what I would usually use, giving us a net result of +-0 for 5 refresh, which doesn't feel like a very good investment.

So I think I would go for more specialized things. For example the possibility to extend "Holy Touch" to the use of melee weapons, and in another step to ranged weapons. Or a reskinned version of toughness against supernaturals, representing how they hesitate to touch you. I think that would work way better.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Belial666 on June 24, 2014, 11:33:33 AM
As is, the mechanical bonuses of these abilities are unwieldy and imbalanced. Base them off existing powers/stunts for ease of use and mechanical balance. For example;

Providence [-1]
Description: Faith provides, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand.
Skills affected: Varies
Effect: As long as you can justify it through belief, you may employ Conviction to do Declarations as if it were a Knowledge and Perception skill. This doesn't so much reflect actual knowledge or perception as your belief that things will go as they should, and the favorable outcomes Providence arranges.
[-1] Faith Moves Mountains: Your faith is especially strong. You roll Conviction at +2 for faith-based Declarations.
[-1] Hope Springs Eternal: Your faith is especially lasting. You may perform one additional faith-based Declaration per scene than you reasonably could. You can take this ability more than once; the effects stack.


Grace Against the Dark [-1]
Description: Mortals who leave the safety of their homes may find themselves buoyed by the knowledge that a strong spirit can make all the difference when facing the unknown terrors of the world.
Musts: You must have taken Holy Touch.
Skills affected: conviction
Effects: You may directly channel your faith to oppose the forces of darkness such as call holy light, weaken demons, suppress supernatural power and so forth. You can perform Maneuvers and Blocks at your Conviction+2.
[-1] Censure the Dark: You may directly harm supernatural foes with your Faith. You can also use Grace Against the Dark to perform attacks at weapon 2. Damage from such attacks comes from Holy power and is spiritual in nature.
[-1] Smite Adversary: Your opposition to the Dark Powers is especially potent. Faith-based attacks are weapon 4.
[-1] Aura of Faith: Your faith radiates outwards in a palpable aura. Maneuvers, attacks and blocks with Grace Against the Dark are zone-wide.
[-1] Shield of Faith: Who needs armor when defended by faith? You may roll a Grace Against the Dark block instead of your normal defense.





See? The first is an extra Trapping for Conviction, with bonuses to it as upgrades. The second is based on Incite Emotion.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Taran on June 24, 2014, 01:05:56 PM
Here's a character I have with -17 refresh except I reskinned the powers as 'luck' powers.  This could easily be used as a True Faith Character.  Some of the skills are weird because it was for the Worm game.  Capes=Lore.

Powers:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
-1 Guide My Hand
-2 Guided Fortune (re-skinned Righteousness)

(wish list powers:  Guide my hand; toughness or recovery; Incite effect; Incite defensive)

11/17
FP: 6

+6 Conviction; Awareness
+5 Guns; Athletics
+4 Capes; Deceit;
+3 Presence; Endurance;
+2 Contacts; Stealth ; Resources
+1 Scholarship;  Rapport; Drive
[/quote]
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Locnil on June 24, 2014, 02:13:43 PM
Oh yeah, I remember those powers from the wiki.

Probability Manipulation always seems horribly overcosted to me, though.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Taran on June 24, 2014, 02:45:16 PM
Oh yeah, I remember those powers from the wiki.

Probability Manipulation always seems horribly overcosted to me, though.

I suppose, considering this is only a -1 stunt:

Quote
Unshakeable: When defending against social
or mental attacks with Discipline, any of your
aspects (such as consequences or other temporary
or permanent aspects) that get tagged
provide only a +1. If the attacker chooses to tag
for a reroll, you may “lock down” one of his dice,
leaving him only the other three to re-roll.

And considering sponsored debt is a [-0] power.

Being able to force people to re-roll is worth a refresh, though.

I spent 4 refresh on Probability manipulation if you include 'stacking the deck'  which is a sub-power.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 24, 2014, 03:51:13 PM
I'll second Haru and Belial. Those Powers look unwieldy and too mathy.

Probability Manipulation always seems horribly overcosted to me, though.

It might be. I wasn't sure how much it should cost, and I figured too expensive was better than too cheap. So I aimed high.

Taran will be helping us find out whether it should be cheaper.

Providence [-1]
Description: Faith provides, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand.
Skills affected: Varies
Effect: As long as you can justify it through belief, you may employ Conviction to do Declarations as if it were a Knowledge and Perception skill. This doesn't so much reflect actual knowledge or perception as your belief that things will go as they should, and the favorable outcomes Providence arranges.
[-1] Faith Moves Mountains: Your faith is especially strong. You roll Conviction at +2 for faith-based Declarations.
[-1] Hope Springs Eternal: Your faith is especially lasting. You may perform one additional faith-based Declaration per scene than you reasonably could. You can take this ability more than once; the effects stack.

I'd allow it. Hope Springs Eternal might be kinda pointless in my games, though, since I don't hard-cap Declaration numbers.

Grace Against the Dark [-1]
Description: Mortals who leave the safety of their homes may find themselves buoyed by the knowledge that a strong spirit can make all the difference when facing the unknown terrors of the world.
Musts: You must have taken Holy Touch.
Skills affected: conviction
Effects: You may directly channel your faith to oppose the forces of darkness such as call holy light, weaken demons, suppress supernatural power and so forth. You can perform Maneuvers and Blocks at your Conviction+2.
[-1] Censure the Dark: You may directly harm supernatural foes with your Faith. You can also use Grace Against the Dark to perform attacks at weapon 2. Damage from such attacks comes from Holy power and is spiritual in nature.
[-1] Smite Adversary: Your opposition to the Dark Powers is especially potent. Faith-based attacks are weapon 4.
[-1] Aura of Faith: Your faith radiates outwards in a palpable aura. Maneuvers, attacks and blocks with Grace Against the Dark are zone-wide.
[-1] Shield of Faith: Who needs armor when defended by faith? You may roll a Grace Against the Dark block instead of your normal defense.

Have you seen Incite Effect? It's a generalization of Incite Emotion that was created while you were away.

Providence [-1]
Description:
Your choices and beliefs have a profound impact, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide my Hand and Holy Touch
Skills affected: Conviction
Effects:
Faith moves Mountains: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you either get 2 free uses of "Faith Manages" or you may increase your Conviction by 1 when rolling for "Faith Manages". You may take this power multiple times, but the bonus to your Conviction may not exceed your original rating.

I'd allow it, assuming the free uses of Faith Manages are per-session.

So I think I would go for more specialized things. For example the possibility to extend "Holy Touch" to the use of melee weapons, and in another step to ranged weapons.

There's a custom version of Holy Touch on the wiki which JayTee is welcome to take. It ought to cover this.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Belial666 on June 24, 2014, 04:12:10 PM
Quote
I'd allow it, assuming the free uses of Faith Manages are per-session.
"Faith Manages" replaces another skill, except not for attacks or maneuvers. Say your Conviction is +6 while another skill is +2. The difference is what, 2 declarations? IF you got no limit on Declarations for your game and since they don't take any time, I don't see how it's any different than my version of Providence.

Quote
Have you seen Incite Effect? It's a generalization of Incite Emotion that was created while you were away.
Yes, but my motto is "A custom power is a custom power". Same as with stunts, don't give your PCs a list of standardized new powers - have them make them specifically for a character. Chances are they'll turn out better flavor-wise and have less balance problems.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 24, 2014, 04:22:06 PM
I have a limit on Declarations, just not a hard cap. The more Declarations you make, the harder they are.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 24, 2014, 04:23:06 PM
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I really liked Haru and Belial's suggestions for Providence, so I decided to try and modify/combine both their suggestions in to one. I took the bulk of Belial's suggestion which I really liked, and adding on Haru's version of "Faith moves Mountains" under the "hope springs eternal". I upped the refresh cost by 1, and increased the usage to per scene. I really really liked the original idea I had for Providence, so I don't want to give it up too easily (unless it really is just that bad  :o)

Providence [-1]
Description: Faith provides, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand.
Skills affected: Varies
Effect:
As long as you can justify it through belief, you may employ Conviction to do Declarations as if it were a Knowledge and Perception skill. This doesn't so much reflect actual knowledge or perception as your belief that things will go as they should, and the favorable outcomes Providence arranges.
[-1] Faith Moves Mountains: Your faith is especially strong. You roll Conviction at +2 for faith-based Declarations.
[-2] Hope Springs Eternal: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you either get 1 free use of "Faith Manages" per scene or you may increase your Conviction by 1 when rolling for "Faith Manages". You may take this power multiple times for, but the bonus to your Conviction may not exceed your original rating.


@Sanctaphrax/Haru: I'm not a fan of  that custom Holy Touch power. I am of the opinion that if a character has an weapon on them for an extended period of time, then they should just be able to say "My faith has influenced my gun/knife/whatever, it counts as holy". So I'll likely go with Belial's version of Grace Against the Dark  :)
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 24, 2014, 04:33:41 PM
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I really liked Haru and Belial's suggestions for Providence, so I decided to try and modify/combine both their suggestions in to one. I took the bulk of Belial's suggestion which I really liked, and adding on Haru's version of "Faith moves Mountains" under the "hope springs eternal". I upped the refresh cost by 1, and increased the usage to per scene. I really really liked the original idea I had for Providence, so I don't want to give it up too easily (unless it really is just that bad  :o)

Providence [-1]
Description: Faith provides, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand.
Skills affected: Varies
Effect:
As long as you can justify it through belief, you may employ Conviction to do Declarations as if it were a Knowledge and Perception skill. This doesn't so much reflect actual knowledge or perception as your belief that things will go as they should, and the favorable outcomes Providence arranges.
[-1] Faith Moves Mountains: Your faith is especially strong. You roll Conviction at +2 for faith-based Declarations.
[-2] Hope Springs Eternal: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you either get 1 free use of "Faith Manages" per scene or you may increase your Conviction by 1 when rolling for "Faith Manages". You may take this power multiple times for, but the bonus to your Conviction may not exceed your original rating.

I don't think you should merge them. They've got little to do with one another.

Also, spending 2 Refresh for +1 to Faith Manges seems weak.


@Sanctaphrax/Haru: I'm not a fan of  that custom Holy Touch power.
I am of the opinion that if a character has an weapon on them for an extended period of time, then they should just be able to say "My faith has influenced my gun/knife/whatever, it counts as holy".

These statements seem slightly contradictory.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 24, 2014, 04:41:50 PM
I don't think you should merge them. They've got little to do with one another.
I'm not sure how that's the case, they've both got a general feel of "unseen forces provide benefits through faith/conviction"

Also, spending 2 Refresh for +1 to Faith Manges seems weak.
+1 per scene?

These statements seem slightly contradictory.
If I remember the custom holy touch power correctly, it effectively lets you add the holy tag to your weapon. I am of the opinion that you shouldn't need to spend refresh to gain that effect if you already have the default Holy Touch. It's something you can just do with a declaration or just have it be an automatic effect.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Haru on June 24, 2014, 04:45:35 PM
I'd allow it, assuming the free uses of Faith Manages are per-session.
That was the idea, yes.

adding on Haru's version of "Faith moves Mountains" under the "hope springs eternal". I upped the refresh cost by 1, and increased the usage to per scene. I really really liked the original idea I had for Providence, so I don't want to give it up too easily (unless it really is just that bad  :o)
It might work, but I'd be cautious. You'd essentially multiply the use of a Fate point by the number of scenes in a session, which might be a bit much. What's more, this way it becomes an "I have to spend this in this scene or it was wasted" sort of resource, which can lead to an overblown use of the power. With uses per session, you can spend them when you need them, without as much of a need to do so.

Quote
[-2] Hope Springs Eternal: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you either get 1 free use of "Faith Manages" per scene or you may increase your Conviction by 1 when rolling for "Faith Manages". You may take this power multiple times for, but the bonus to your Conviction may not exceed your original rating.
I think you should determine when you take the power if this is going to be a +use or a +skill thing, like when you take refinement as either focus item slots or specializations. You can switch at a milestone, of course, but switching whenever you want to seems to much. Just wanted to clarify.

And -2 refresh for +1 is kind of expensive as well.

I don't think you'll need the -1 prerequisite. Using Convictions for Declarations like that is pretty much exactly what Guide my Hand is supposed to do, so you'll kind of remove the need for spending Fate points altogether, except for very few cases. Seems weird. I would just make "Faith moves Mountains" and "Hope springs Eternal" separate powers.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 24, 2014, 04:55:30 PM
It might work, but I'd be cautious. You'd essentially multiply the use of a Fate point by the number of scenes in a session, which might be a bit much. What's more, this way it becomes an "I have to spend this in this scene or it was wasted" sort of resource, which can lead to an overblown use of the power. With uses per session, you can spend them when you need them, without as much of a need to do so.
I'm... not certain how this is an issue? Call me dumb, but if the number of uses gets restored every scene, it effectively becomes similar to a caster using Evocations?

I think you should determine when you take the power if this is going to be a +use or a +skill thing, like when you take refinement as either focus item slots or specializations. You can switch at a milestone, of course, but switching whenever you want to seems to much. Just wanted to clarify.
Seems fair to me.

And -2 refresh for +1 is kind of expensive as well.
Seriously? You too? Man, I must suck at gaging cost effectiveness for powers.

I don't think you'll need the -1 prerequisite. Using Convictions for Declarations like that is pretty much exactly what Guide my Hand is supposed to do, so you'll kind of remove the need for spending Fate points altogether, except for very few cases. Seems weird. I would just make "Faith moves Mountains" and "Hope springs Eternal" separate powers.
I don't mind making them separate powers. The refresh cost seems the same either way, so there's no mandate for them to be all together.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 24, 2014, 07:01:27 PM
I'm not sure how that's the case, they've both got a general feel of "unseen forces provide benefits through faith/conviction"

The effects have little or nothing to do with each other.

+1 per scene?

Still weak. The normal exchange rate is 1 Refresh for +2. 2 Refresh for +1 is pretty bad.

If I remember the custom holy touch power correctly...

Pretty sure you don't. It does everything you've been saying you want.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Taran on June 24, 2014, 08:12:44 PM
Pretty sure you don't. It does everything you've been saying you want.

For your convenience JayTee

HOLY TOUCH [-1]
Description: You radiate holiness.
Musts: You must have the Righteousness Power in order to take this one.
Skills Affected: Conviction, attack skills.
Effects:
Holy Touch. Your presence is like holy water, which can hurt or drive away many monsters. This allows you to use your Conviction skill for maneuvers and Declarations based around the use of holy power, and may expand the range of Compels that you can inflict. All of your attacks satisfy Catches that have to do with Holy Stuff, and any attack you make against a character that is vulnerable to holy power inflicts two additional stress. As a general rule, vulnerability to holy power involves having a relevant Catch or High Concept.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Haru on June 24, 2014, 08:18:16 PM
Seriously? You too? Man, I must suck at gaging cost effectiveness for powers.
I might have stated that a bit vague. +1 use per scene for -2 is ok. But taking the power you can choose to either have that or +1 to the skill in that situation. It's the +1 to the skill option that's weak.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 25, 2014, 05:20:17 AM
Oh wow, that holy touch power is basically exactly what I think the corebook holy touch should be, and then some, nice! I'll definitely be taking that version in games where it's allowed.

Back on topic of the custom powers, i've been thinking on them on and off while at work, and I've come up with some revisions that i'd like to have pass inspection.

Providence -2
Description: Faith provides, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand and Righteousness
Skills affected: Varies
Effect:
Faith moves Mountains: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you gain get 1 free expenditure of a Fate Point to activate your holy powers. You may take this power multiple times, but the total amount of free expenditures cannot exceed your Conviction rating.

For providence I modified haru's suggestion and focused on the free fate points for holy stuff, effectively turning it in to a form of refinement for true faith powers. I added the conviction cap because I felt it might be abusable in higher refresh games. (granted you'd need to shove 10 refresh in it in order to get 5 uses in most games, but I figure it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it)


Weight of Belief -1
Description: The force of your convictions shake the world.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand.
Skills affected: Conviction
Effect: As long as you can justify it through belief, you may employ Conviction to do Declarations as if it were a Knowledge and Perception skill. This doesn't so much reflect actual knowledge or perception as your belief that things will go as they should, and the favorable outcomes Providence arranges.

Basically Belial's version of Providence as a separate/different power. I thought it was really awesome.  :)


Grace Against the Dark -2
Description: Mortals who leave the safety of their homes may find themselves buoyed by the knowledge that a strong spirit can make all the difference when facing the unknown terrors of the world.
Musts: The character needs to have taken Righteousness and Holy Touch
Skills affected: Varies
Effect:
Hope Springs Eternal
Strengthened by the idea of a brighter tomorrow, the howling darkness of the beyond find you a much greater foe. When opposing a supernatural force, spend a fate point to reduce their rolls by 2 shifts for the rest of the scene, so long as that roll was in some way backed by a supernatural power. More than one fate points may be spent on this, but the amount reduced is only -1 per Fate Point after the first.
The Dark Yields -2
Your faith is such that even the wicked quail before you. When facing down a supernatural force, you may treat their toughness as being one step lower. Mythic becomes Supernatural, and Supernatural becomes Inhuman, and Inhuman goes away.


The real meat of this power is the primary effect Hope Springs Eternal, which is intended to act as an equalizer between a True Believer and various monsters and their ever escalating strength/speed powers and casters with their refinements. My primary concern as a point of balance is the interaction between it and Providence. They are intended to work together, but I worry that both together might be too powerful, or even that the basic effect of Hope Springs might be too strong.

The second effect is basically the benefits of soulfire turned in to a more general use faith power. I think I calibrated the refresh cost right, but let me know if I got it wrong so I can change it.






Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Belial666 on June 25, 2014, 10:33:06 AM
Quote
Hope Springs Eternal
Strengthened by the idea of a brighter tomorrow, the howling darkness of the beyond find you a much greater foe. When opposing a supernatural force, spend a fate point to reduce their rolls by 2 shifts for the rest of the scene, so long as that roll was in some way backed by a supernatural power. More than one fate points may be spent on this, but the amount reduced is only -1 per Fate Point after the first.
There is no way this is anywhere even close to balanced. "All Creatures Are Equal" costs -3, only negates toughness powers, needs a FP per target affected and doesn't actually affect rolls of any kind. This one affects every single power, ever. It effectively functions as a +2 for you or more that lasts for the scene and affects pretty much every roll most enemies will make. Combine it with access to anything that offers free uses of Faith powers and you can turn an enemy's skill of +6 into a +0. For the whole scene. For all skills used with supernatural abilities. Not going to happen. A more acceptable version would be something like this;

Sanctum of Faith [varies]
Description: Your faith is an unshakable bastion against supernatural powers.
Musts: Bless this House
Skills affected: none
Effect: The zone you're currently in has a minimum threshold equal to the points spent in this ability; unless invited, supernatural beings have to leave some of their power behind upon entry. Beings with too little power may not enter at all or might dissolve upon entry, depending on creature type. Bless this House applies to this ability.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 25, 2014, 04:15:46 PM
Providence -2
Description: Faith provides, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand and Righteousness
Skills affected: Varies
Effect:
Faith moves Mountains: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you gain get 1 free expenditure of a Fate Point to activate your holy powers. You may take this power multiple times, but the total amount of free expenditures cannot exceed your Conviction rating.

For providence I modified haru's suggestion and focused on the free fate points for holy stuff, effectively turning it in to a form of refinement for true faith powers. I added the conviction cap because I felt it might be abusable in higher refresh games. (granted you'd need to shove 10 refresh in it in order to get 5 uses in most games, but I figure it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it)

So you spend 2 Fate Points and get 1? And you can only spend it on True Faith? Seems amazingly pointless.

Weight of Belief -1
Description: The force of your convictions shake the world.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand.
Skills affected: Conviction
Effect: As long as you can justify it through belief, you may employ Conviction to do Declarations as if it were a Knowledge and Perception skill. This doesn't so much reflect actual knowledge or perception as your belief that things will go as they should, and the favorable outcomes Providence arranges.

Basically Belial's version of Providence as a separate/different power. I thought it was really awesome.  :)

Looks good.

Grace Against the Dark -2
Description: Mortals who leave the safety of their homes may find themselves buoyed by the knowledge that a strong spirit can make all the difference when facing the unknown terrors of the world.
Musts: The character needs to have taken Righteousness and Holy Touch
Skills affected: Varies
Effect:
Hope Springs Eternal
Strengthened by the idea of a brighter tomorrow, the howling darkness of the beyond find you a much greater foe. When opposing a supernatural force, spend a fate point to reduce their rolls by 2 shifts for the rest of the scene, so long as that roll was in some way backed by a supernatural power. More than one fate points may be spent on this, but the amount reduced is only -1 per Fate Point after the first.
The Dark Yields -2
Your faith is such that even the wicked quail before you. When facing down a supernatural force, you may treat their toughness as being one step lower. Mythic becomes Supernatural, and Supernatural becomes Inhuman, and Inhuman goes away.


The real meat of this power is the primary effect Hope Springs Eternal, which is intended to act as an equalizer between a True Believer and various monsters and their ever escalating strength/speed powers and casters with their refinements. My primary concern as a point of balance is the interaction between it and Providence. They are intended to work together, but I worry that both together might be too powerful, or even that the basic effect of Hope Springs might be too strong.

The second effect is basically the benefits of soulfire turned in to a more general use faith power. I think I calibrated the refresh cost right, but let me know if I got it wrong so I can change it.

I don't feel as strongly as Belial does about this, but I agree that it's too strong.

Sanctum of Faith [varies]
Description: Your faith is an unshakable bastion against supernatural powers.
Musts: Bless this House
Skills affected: none
Effect: The zone you're currently in has a minimum threshold equal to the points spent in this ability; unless invited, supernatural beings have to leave some of their power behind upon entry. Beings with too little power may not enter at all or might dissolve upon entry, depending on creature type. Bless this House applies to this ability.

I don't think the Bless This House interaction is a good idea. If it costs 1 Refresh to boost my threshold by 1, then I shouldn't be able to boost it by 2 by spending 1 Refresh on Bless This House. And I'm not sure how this should interact with creatures that can't cross thresholds at all, or with ranged attacks.

Apart from that, though, it looks pretty good.

Anyway, if you're looking for protective custom Powers you might want to look at Divine Protection, Living Threshold, and Aegis Demon Shield. The former two are on the wiki, the last one is in the EtA character creation thread.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Haru on June 25, 2014, 05:07:47 PM
Providence -2
Description: Faith provides, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand and Righteousness
Skills affected: Varies
Effect:
Faith moves Mountains: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you gain get 1 free expenditure of a Fate Point to activate your holy powers. You may take this power multiple times, but the total amount of free expenditures cannot exceed your Conviction rating.

For providence I modified haru's suggestion and focused on the free fate points for holy stuff, effectively turning it in to a form of refinement for true faith powers. I added the conviction cap because I felt it might be abusable in higher refresh games. (granted you'd need to shove 10 refresh in it in order to get 5 uses in most games, but I figure it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it)
So you spend 2 Fate Points and get 1? And you can only spend it on True Faith? Seems amazingly pointless.
My thoughts exactly. And if it is supposed to be per scene, it becomes a math game again.

I thought my version was pretty much a good balance as refinement for faith, your version doesn't feel like it has much in common with it.

Quote
Weight of Belief -1
Description: The force of your convictions shake the world.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand.
Skills affected: Conviction
Effect: As long as you can justify it through belief, you may employ Conviction to do Declarations as if it were a Knowledge and Perception skill. This doesn't so much reflect actual knowledge or perception as your belief that things will go as they should, and the favorable outcomes Providence arranges.
Like I said before, this looks like a way to do "Faith Manages" without spending Fate points on it. For example, instead of spending a Fate point on "Faith Manages" to replace a Burglary roll to open a door with Conviction, I could make it a Perception roll to say that I see the key lying on the ground. It's just a matter of how you describe what's happening, and you'll never need to spend a Fate point on "Faith Manages" again. That's a bit much for a 1 refresh power.



Quote
Grace Against the Dark -2
Description: Mortals who leave the safety of their homes may find themselves buoyed by the knowledge that a strong spirit can make all the difference when facing the unknown terrors of the world.
Musts: The character needs to have taken Righteousness and Holy Touch
Skills affected: Varies
Effect:
Hope Springs Eternal
Strengthened by the idea of a brighter tomorrow, the howling darkness of the beyond find you a much greater foe. When opposing a supernatural force, spend a fate point to reduce their rolls by 2 shifts for the rest of the scene, so long as that roll was in some way backed by a supernatural power. More than one fate points may be spent on this, but the amount reduced is only -1 per Fate Point after the first.
The Dark Yields -2
Your faith is such that even the wicked quail before you. When facing down a supernatural force, you may treat their toughness as being one step lower. Mythic becomes Supernatural, and Supernatural becomes Inhuman, and Inhuman goes away.


The real meat of this power is the primary effect Hope Springs Eternal, which is intended to act as an equalizer between a True Believer and various monsters and their ever escalating strength/speed powers and casters with their refinements. My primary concern as a point of balance is the interaction between it and Providence. They are intended to work together, but I worry that both together might be too powerful, or even that the basic effect of Hope Springs might be too strong.

The second effect is basically the benefits of soulfire turned in to a more general use faith power. I think I calibrated the refresh cost right, but let me know if I got it wrong so I can change it.
Not a Fan. "The Dark Yields" is probably fine, but "Hope Springs Eternal is deeply flawed. It is basically an "I win!" button, and there's already a mechanic for that: compels. And spending more than one Fate point on a compel is already established, as well, it's called escalating, when someone wants to pay off a compel. I think that's a much cleaner way to go than this.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Arcane on June 26, 2014, 05:01:38 AM
Along with possible new powers, you could always reskin old supernatural powers to give them a Fatih-based flavor.

Armor of Righteousness (Reskinned Supernatural Toughness)
Description: Your faith in a higher power and service to divine purpose grants you protection against creatures of darkness and malign supernatural powers.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand.  They must also take the following Catch.
The Catch: Mundane attacks from mortal humans and animals not undertaken due to supernatural influence.  (Anyone can reasonably get access +2; Requires access to specific research material (detailed histories of saints and holy men) +1)
Skills affected: As Superhuman Toughness
Effects: As Superhuman Toughness
Refresh Cost: -1

Theoretically one could also get a stronger version that gave the benefits of Mythic Toughness for a Refresh Cost of -3.

Edit: Clarification - "due to supernatural influence" means supernatural powers directly influencing the mortal human's or animal's mind or body.  A mortal human attacking due to being possessed, under mental control, or having their body manipulated like a puppet by a supernatural creature doesn't satisfy the Catch but a mortal human attacking due to being bribed, intimidated (not Incited) or tricked by a supernatural creature would.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 26, 2014, 05:54:59 AM
Belial's version is actually more in line with what I was aiming for. My intention was definitely not to make it so that rolls involving supernatural powers could be reduced down to +0. That's dumb, and a result of bad wording on my part.

The only changes I'd make to Sanctum of Faith is that it wouldn't apply to the whole zone, just to rolls with supernatural powers that interact with the character, and the suppression couldn't reduce the roll below it's base skill level, which would ideally turn it in to an equalizer of sorts. Something like:

Gift of Grace [varies]
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When making an opposed roll involving the supernatural, you may treat the opposing power as if it were under the suppression effect of a threshold that has a strength equal to the number of Fate Points spent on this ability, up to you Conviction.

Powers that are intended to have reduced effectiveness when interacting with Gift of Grace are Strength, Speed (specifically dodging), Evocation and Thaumaturgy. Evocation and thaumaturgy are not intended to be suppressed in to uselessness, just the crazy levels of power they can throw around with all their refinements. Similarly Speed and Strength can work at full effectiveness when applied to anything other than the character who has Gift of Grace.

Thoughts?

Re: Providence - I really liked the fate point thing, but I did say that I would discard it if it was stupid, and it seems like it really is just that stupid, so I'll go with the original suggestion.  :)
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 26, 2014, 04:37:23 PM
Like I said before, this looks like a way to do "Faith Manages" without spending Fate points on it. For example, instead of spending a Fate point on "Faith Manages" to replace a Burglary roll to open a door with Conviction, I could make it a Perception roll to say that I see the key lying on the ground. It's just a matter of how you describe what's happening, and you'll never need to spend a Fate point on "Faith Manages" again. That's a bit much for a 1 refresh power.

I don't expect this to be a problem. Weight of Providence will just let Conviction do a bit of what Alertness does and a bit of what Scholarship does.

Gift of Grace [varies]
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When making an opposed roll involving the supernatural, you may treat the opposing power as if it were under the suppression effect of a threshold that has a strength equal to the number of Fate Points spent on this ability, up to you Conviction.

I don't understand how this is meant to work.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 26, 2014, 04:51:59 PM
It's mechanically the same as Sanctum of Faith, only focused more narrowly on the character instead of the whole zone.

EDIT: It also can't dissolve spirits or other things that would be affected like that by a threshold. It just evens the odds and gives a fair-er chance.

EDIT: Ignore that. Better explanation: it work the same as Sanctum of Faith, except that  spirits don't dissolve and allies can't take advantage of it. It feels too strong to me if they could (although I'm not exactly the authority when it comes to power balance)
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 26, 2014, 07:33:30 PM
That only helps partway, I'm afraid. Still not sure I follow. Can you run me through an example of it in action?
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 27, 2014, 06:17:33 AM
The two powers function the same way, the only difference between the two is when the threshold effect is applied.

The general rule is that the more something supernatural tries to screw me over or prevent me from doing what I've decided needs to be done, the more likely it is to get hit with the threshold effect.

Using speed powers to dodge my attacks or maneuver against me? Threshold'ed

Using speed powers to run away from me? Not Threshold'ed

Using strength powers to crush me? Threshold'ed

Using strength powers to smash a hole in a wall? Not Threshold'ed

Using magic to affect me negatively, or try to prevent me from doing something? Threshold'ed

Using magic in the general area? Not Threshold'ed.

Other powers like Domination and Incite Emotion would definitely be threshold'ed if they were applied to me, but not others. Glamours would be on a case by case basis, but erring on the side of threshold'ed.

The idea here is to give the sense that the character's god/confidence/faith/ancestor spirits/whatever are giving them unseen support and protection against the supernatural, hence the name "gift of grace". Sanctum of Faith would apply universally to all those situations, and feels a little too overt for how faith powers are presented in the books.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Belial666 on June 27, 2014, 11:08:35 AM
Having the threshold depend on how many FP/invokes you have at hand is neither balanced nor flavor supported. If someone can negate powers through the power of his faith, then how strong his faith is should be represented and not be entirely dependent on circumstance.


Also do note that each time a creature's catch or similar drawback comes up, they get a FP. If you pay FP against them directly, they get an equal amount too. A power that depends on FP to weaken enemy rolls is self-defeating because the enemy gets as many FP as you spend.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 27, 2014, 01:37:38 PM
The two powers function the same way, the only difference between the two is when the threshold effect is applied.

Pretty sure this is impossible.

Using strength powers to crush me? Threshold'ed

What does this mean?

Also do note that each time a creature's catch or similar drawback comes up, they get a FP. If you pay FP against them directly, they get an equal amount too. A power that depends on FP to weaken enemy rolls is self-defeating because the enemy gets as many FP as you spend.

Not so. You only get FP when your Aspects are compelled, and not every Catch encounter is a Compel.

Also, opponents only get FP spent against them if it's spent on their Aspects.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Taran on June 27, 2014, 02:14:30 PM
@JayTee

Why don't you use a power that lets you set up a threshold in an area.

Home is Where I Hang My Hat (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37642.msg1839208.html#msg1839208)

Given a little prep, you can set up a threshold anywhere.  There's another custom power that does the same but I prefer this one.(obviously)

I'm not a big fan of instantaneous and portable thresholds.  They're too powerful (and complicated).

If you combine this with a wizard setting up Wards, it can be quite strong.  If your character already has Bless This House, it is even stronger.  Given your conviction, you could set up a threshold withing a 'few moments' if you needed.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 28, 2014, 11:34:21 PM
Having the threshold depend on how many FP/invokes you have at hand is neither balanced nor flavor supported. If someone can negate powers through the power of his faith, then how strong his faith is should be represented and not be entirely dependent on circumstance.
I have to admit I'm confused by your critique. It's almost identical in terms of raw mechanics to the power you proposed, except it's had it's been nerfed somewhat.

Pretty sure this is impossible.
The Idea here is not to have the character generate a threshold, but instead to use the raw threshold mechanics to emulate a character possessing supernatural grace in the face of the weird.

What does this mean?
If they were to try and attack or grapple me, then the strength benefits from Inhuman/Supernatural/Mystic strength would be hit by the threshold effect.

@Taran:
It's a cool power, but my main issue with it is that it feels too... reactionary, I guess. PCs should be more proactive, IMO.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 29, 2014, 03:13:59 AM
If they were to try and attack or grapple me, then the strength benefits from Inhuman/Supernatural/Mystic strength would be hit by the threshold effect.

That doesn't answer my question.

I feel like we're talking in circles here. So I'll explain further. Thresholds are not all that well-defined in the rules. Saying it works like a threshold doesn't actually tell me anything.

So how does it work?
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 29, 2014, 03:38:09 AM
The suppressor effect (YS pg 230), a power or spell loses a number of shifts equal to the strength of the threshold. So if I were to put 2 Fate Points in to Gift of Grace, spells or powers directly interact with my character or his actions would lose 2 shifts of power, as if they were hit with a threshold.

Note that it wouldn't reduce the shifts lower than their actual base skill level. If they have Fists 5 or Athletics 5 + any stunts, I still need to deal with that normally. I just wouldn't have to worry about being rendered impotent by their speed powers, or overwhelmed by strength powers.

The same applies to casting, too. Casters can still use spells, but the crazy levels of power they can throw around with refinements/focus items would be mitigated to a degree. Even I was going against a caster with no bonuses to their magic, the loss of 2 shifts wouldn't reduce their overall casting abilities below their base Lore/Conviction/Discipline.

Note that shift loss wouldn't be omni-applicable to everything the monster/caster in question does, as it's not an actual threshold, it's just a way to model a character who's actions are being guided by the divine. Actions that do not interact with the me directly would be able to work just fine at full power.

I hope this explanation helps. Let me know if I need to further clarify it.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 29, 2014, 03:48:00 AM
So it'd reduce Athletics bonuses from Speed or weapon rating bonuses from Strength?

How would it interact with evocation? If I have Discipline and Conviction 4 with bonuses of +3 power and control total to my fire attack spells, and I roll a -1 to hit you with a 9-shift evocation when you have 4 points of "threshold" up, and I take a point of backlash to keep my spell strong, what happens?
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Hick Jr on June 29, 2014, 03:56:00 AM
If I'm reading that correctly, I'd recommend beefing it up a bit. Maybe +2 Threshold shifts per Fate Point?
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 29, 2014, 04:11:44 AM
So it'd reduce Athletics bonuses from Speed or weapon rating bonuses from Strength?
Those would be the most common interactions, yes. Other applications of speed/strength powers could lose shifts if they were both applied against me and the skill use in question gained a bonus from supernatural powers.

How would it interact with evocation? If I have Discipline and Conviction 4 with bonuses of +3 power and control total to my fire attack spells, and I roll a -1 to hit you with a 9-shift evocation when you have 4 points of "threshold" up, and I take a point of backlash to keep my spell strong, what happens?
If I'm reading this correctly, you're gunning at me with a -1 shift, weapons 9 attack. In that case if I somehow failed to dodge it on my own (rendering the attack moot without the use of GoG), then the threshold effect would reduce the weapon shifts by 4.

For spellcraft in general I feel like it would be unfair/unbalanced if the threshold effect applied to both the power and the accuracy rating, so I think I should have to choose where to reduce the shifts before I made my own roll. Granted, I am not as familiar with spellcraft rules as I could be, so perhaps this is a poor call. I'm open to suggestions.

If I'm reading that correctly, I'd recommend beefing it up a bit. Maybe +2 Threshold shifts per Fate Point?
Maybe, depends on how balanced the crunch masters on the site deem it  ;). My instinct currently is a straight 1:1 as it's based off of Belial's suggestion, which used the same exchange rate.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Taran on June 29, 2014, 02:07:39 PM
thresholds reduce the power of spells, so the weapon (power 9) attack would become a power 5 spell.

It would similarly affect maneuvers targeted at you, then.  If they hit you with a power 9 "TRIPPED" maneuver, you'd only have to dodge 5  and blocks would be reduced by 4 shifts as well.

Thresholds don't affect the targeting roll of spells.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 29, 2014, 05:32:29 PM
I am more than okay with that.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 29, 2014, 05:47:24 PM
So it reduces the power of spells and the bonuses of Powers.

What if someone is using two separate Power bonuses on an attack against you? Like if some vampire super-swordsman takes a swing at you with Weapons 5 +1 from True Aim +1 from Blood Drinker, weapon 3 + 2 from Inhuman Strength.

Which bonuses get negated if you have threshold 1 up? What if you have threshold 3 instead?

If I'm reading this correctly, you're gunning at me with a -1 shift, weapons 9 attack.

Accuracy 6, actually. The dice gave -1 to a base of 4, with a +3 control bonus. Not that it matters.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on June 29, 2014, 05:58:28 PM
So it reduces the power of spells and the bonuses of Powers.
In essence, yes.

What if someone is using two separate Power bonuses on an attack against you? Like if some vampire super-swordsman takes a swing at you with Weapons 5 +1 from True Aim +1 from Blood Drinker, weapon 3 + 2 from Inhuman Strength.

Which bonuses get negated if you have threshold 1 up? What if you have threshold 3 instead?
I think the easiest answer would be to just say that it reduces the final result by X shifts, where X is the number of refresh spent on GoG, similar to how Toughness powers work. Not sure if the easiest answer is the most balanced answer, though
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Belial666 on July 01, 2014, 02:28:16 AM
Quote
I have to admit I'm confused by your critique.
With my version, you get as powerful an ability as you pay for in character creation. With your version, in one scene the ability might not work at all if you're out of FP, in another it might reduce rolls by a bit for a single FP, and in another it might make the most powerful supernaturals into effectively pure mortals because you got a lot of FP to spend on it. Worse than the fluctuating power is that the ability does not scale. It will be exactly as powerful in a feet in the water game as it will be for a 20-refresh game. And those two problems together make for bad ability design IMHO. Other issues below;

How would it interact with range? For example, both wizards and superstrong enemies could pick up a car and throw it at a house and not be affected by a threshold normally because they are attacking at range and indirectly. Ditto, a superfast enemy standing outside a building wouldn't gain any penalties to defense against gunners from inside the building because they'd not be standing within the house's threshold.

Does it follow the standard threshold rules? A supernatural entering a threshold doesn't actually take any penalties to rolls or whatnot. It has to set aside an amount of powers costing in refresh equal to the threshold. I.e. a 2-shift threshold means a vampire would either have to reduce their supernatural strength to inhuman, or reduce their supernatural toughness to inhuman, or reduce their inhuman speed to no benefit. The exception being wizards, who take penalties to power and control instead.
Do note that the supernatural being picks which power to leave behind when entering a threshold. They could well set aside the least useful ability for their given situation and retain those that would benefit them most.


Last but not least, a "penalty to rolls" mechanic causes issues. Strength powers and things like Claws or Breath Weapon don't give any bonus to rolls at all (weapon rating isn't rolled). Speed powers do. Toughness powers don't. Senses don't. Shapechanging doesn't - not directly. Living Dead doesn't. Flying doesn't. And so on and so forth - not only various powers exist that don't give roll bonuses at all but those that do give bonuses don't give them at the same rate. For example, Speed powers give +1 athletics per 2 refresh, True Aim gives +1 weapons per 1 refresh, Cloak of Shadows gives +2 Stealth per 1 refresh.
So if you use a "penalty to rolls" mechanic, not all powers will be as affected by the ability. (hence why normal Thresholds subtract a set amount of refresh instead)
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on July 02, 2014, 09:14:49 AM
With my version, you get as powerful an ability as you pay for in character creation. With your version, in one scene the ability might not work at all if you're out of FP, in another it might reduce rolls by a bit for a single FP, and in another it might make the most powerful supernaturals into effectively pure mortals because you got a lot of FP to spend on it. Worse than the fluctuating power is that the ability does not scale. It will be exactly as powerful in a feet in the water game as it will be for a 20-refresh game. And those two problems together make for bad ability design IMHO. Other issues below;
I think there was a miscommunication somewhere, the amount reduced is static and based on how many refresh you've paid in to the power. If I have GoG -2, then the effects of powers/spells would be reduced by 2 shifts. The higher the refresh the game gets, the more points I can put in to it and the stronger it becomes.

How would it interact with range? For example, both wizards and superstrong enemies could pick up a car and throw it at a house and not be affected by a threshold normally because they are attacking at range and indirectly. Ditto, a superfast enemy standing outside a building wouldn't gain any penalties to defense against gunners from inside the building because they'd not be standing within the house's threshold.

Does it follow the standard threshold rules? A supernatural entering a threshold doesn't actually take any penalties to rolls or whatnot. It has to set aside an amount of powers costing in refresh equal to the threshold. I.e. a 2-shift threshold means a vampire would either have to reduce their supernatural strength to inhuman, or reduce their supernatural toughness to inhuman, or reduce their inhuman speed to no benefit. The exception being wizards, who take penalties to power and control instead.

Do note that the supernatural being picks which power to leave behind when entering a threshold. They could well set aside the least useful ability for their given situation and retain those that would benefit them most.
Most of this doesn't apply because it's not actually a threshold, it's just borrowing the suppression mechanics to simulate a character who possesses supernatural grace in the face of dark powers.

Last but not least, a "penalty to rolls" mechanic causes issues. Strength powers and things like Claws or Breath Weapon don't give any bonus to rolls at all (weapon rating isn't rolled). Speed powers do. Toughness powers don't. Senses don't. Shapechanging doesn't - not directly. Living Dead doesn't. Flying doesn't. And so on and so forth - not only various powers exist that don't give roll bonuses at all but those that do give bonuses don't give them at the same rate. For example, Speed powers give +1 athletics per 2 refresh, True Aim gives +1 weapons per 1 refresh, Cloak of Shadows gives +2 Stealth per 1 refresh.
So if you use a "penalty to rolls" mechanic, not all powers will be as affected by the ability. (hence why normal Thresholds subtract a set amount of refresh instead)
In general I am not worried if a power gives you an interesting trick like Wings, Claws or Breath weapon, as they're largely static abilities that can be countered with conventional armor or ranged weapons. The primary focus of GoG is to level the playing field between a True Faith character and a monster/caster using powers that can be upgraded continuously. Speed/strength/casting being the most obvious targets.

Here's a slightly reworked version that hopefully is clearer and more concise:

Gift of Grace -1
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When facing a supernatural force who's rolls are being benefitted by a power, you may treat the bonuses granted by those powers as being 1 shift less. In the case of magic, reduce the power of a spell by 1 instead. This power may be taken multiple times.

Alternately, as suggested by Hick Jr, reduce the shifts by 2 for each purchase.

The idea here is not to remove the powers, but to ensure that the high numbers they can throw around no longer dominate the playing field as easily.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Taran on July 02, 2014, 11:27:13 AM
Can it change from exchange to exchange?  Let's as you suppress 2 re fresh worth of powers.  A ghoul attacks you with a strength power.  It does not benefit from +2 damage or the+1 it gets from grappling .  Then you attack it.  If you suppress it's +1 bonus to dodge, you effectively suppressed 4 refresh of powers.

It seems clunky to keep track of.

It might be easier for the gm to mark off which powers don't function against you and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: bobjob on July 02, 2014, 01:54:33 PM
I personally wouldn't let the player decide which powers are suppressed. I'd let the GM decide. After all, the player will just have to have Faith that his god has his back and won't give him a problem he can't handle (or help level the playing field)
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Taran on July 02, 2014, 02:16:03 PM
Why don't you make it like a building block power?

Here's my Attempt.  The numbers would have to be played with.

Gift of Grace [-See Below]
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When facing a supernatural force who's rolls are being benefitted by a power, you become the equalizer:

[-2]Inhuman Grace: 
The great Equalizer: Supernatural creatures do not benefit from inhuman Strength or Speed when targeting or dodging you.  If they have Supernatural or Mythic Speed/Str, these powers are down-graded by 1.
Spells and supernatural attacks(such as incite effect) face a 3-shift block.  If you have Bless This house, increase the block by +2.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered infinite for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer.
Smite: You gain +1 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

[-4]Supernatural Grace: 
The great Equalizer: Supernatural creatures do not benefit from Supernatural Strength and Speed when targeting or dodging you.  If they have Mythic Speed/Str, these powers are down-graded by 2.
Spells and supernatural attacks face a 5-shift block.  If you have Bless This house, increase the block by +2.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered infinite for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer.  Your prayers give an additional +1 (for a total of +2).
Smite: You gain +2 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

[-6]Mythic Grace: 
The great Equalizer: Supernatural creatures may not use Strength and speed powers against you.  Spells and supernatural attacks face a 7-shift block.  If you have Bless This house, increase the block by +2.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered infinite for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer.  Your prayers give an additional +2 (for a total of +3).
Smite: You gain +3 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

**Certain attack would get past this.  Throwing a car at the person would still hurt like hell.  They wouldn't get the +6 weapon damage for, say, Mythic STR, but they'd still get the weapon damage of the thrown car.  Or could be pinned under said car with the appropriate maneuver since the power doesn't reduce lifting capacity.  It would reduce the bonus to grappling or, possibly, negate the bonus for modifying skills when using Might against said PC.

It also wouldn't prevent supplemental movement from speed powers, but it would negate the bonuses from doing athletic maneuvers against a target (like flanking) or dodging.  It may even negate the bonuses it gives to stealth.

I just like doing it this way because it spells it out a bit better.

**The block vs spells and incite probably need to be tweaked.  A block isn't as good as a suppression but, still, it's pretty good - especially in an ambush situation.  It can get quite high at the Mythic levels especially when paired with Bless This House.  It may be too good, but I figured, for 6 refresh, it should be better than your typical dodge.

The other option is to do it like the building block powers: +1/2/3 to dodge supernatural attacks, instead of a straight-up Block...or cap the block at Conviction + bonus from bless this House.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on July 02, 2014, 10:41:45 PM
I like that quite a bit, although I'd make it a suppression effect rather than a block for magic/incite effects due to my bias against "all or nothing" powers, maybe reduce the numbers a bit to make it more balanced if that becomes the case.

Not sure I like the idea of "infinite" Conviction, though. Seems like it could be cheesed.




Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Taran on July 02, 2014, 10:54:50 PM
I like that quite a bit, although I'd make it a suppression effect rather than a block for magic/incite effects due to my bias against "all or nothing" powers,

I don't know what you mean by all or nothing.  A block would just replace your dodge.  So it would reduce how many shifts you get hit with.  I guess if they don't beat the block it's a "nothing" effect.  On the other hand, if you boost the threshold/suppression too much, most spells won't be worth casting.

Displacement is a power that already does this but it does it to ALL physical attacks.  It give a block of 3 + 2 for every level of Speed you have.  I think it's a -1 power.  This particular version doesn't work against all types of attacks, although, it would help against mental attacks.

Edit:  That said, I'm not a big fan of displacement, so it's o.k if you don't like it.  A permanent, always on, block without requiring an action seems a bit much.  A bonus to dodge the effects might be better.

Not sure I like the idea of "infinite" Conviction, though. Seems like it could be cheesed.
'
I'm not sure how it can be cheesed.  It is only considered infinite for the purpose of using Righteousness.  All that means is you always get the +1 when you pray.  I suppose, if you give yourself a REALLY low conviction and then take Righteousness, it might be a bit cheesy since you'd still get +1 to every skill when using potent prayer...but...then you've kind of screwed yourself with every other trapping of Righteousness. (like final hour.)

IMO, most people who have this are going to have maxed conviction anyways, so all it does is give you a +1 on skills that are the same level as your conviction.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 03, 2014, 01:34:34 AM
This thread has grown quite a bit, and I don't have the energy to critique everything.

JayTee, which Powers are you actually planning to use? I'm just gonna look at those ones.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on July 04, 2014, 08:06:02 AM
Going to try to hybridize the various versions in to one. There Lot of really cool ideas that I don't want to see go to waste.

Gift of Grace -2
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When facing a supernatural force who's rolls are being benefitted by a power, your faith will level the playing field. This power may be taken multiple times, with each repurchase increasing the benefits by 1 step.
Hope Rises: Supernatural creatures do not benefit from inhuman Strength or Speed when targeting or dodging you. Spells and supernatural attacks (such as incite effect) Have their power reduced by 2 shifts.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered your highest skill for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer. When repurchasing this power, increase the bonus given by Righteousness by +1.
Smite: You gain +1 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

It's basically Taran's Gift of Grace, but modified modified so that the interactions with magic/incite effect are suppressions rather than blocks. I also effectively compressed it in to one a repurchasable power.

Also, I thought I would copy over Belial's Weight of Belief and Haru's Providence, as i'd love to see them added.  :)

Weight of Belief -1
Description: The force of your convictions shake the world.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand.
Skills affected: Conviction
Effect: As long as you can justify it through belief, you may employ Conviction to do Declarations as if it were a Knowledge and Perception skill. This doesn't so much reflect actual knowledge or perception as your belief that things will go as they should, and the favorable outcomes Providence arranges.

Providence -1
Description:
Your choices and beliefs have a profound impact, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide my Hand and Holy Touch
Skills affected: Conviction
Effects:
Faith moves Mountains: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you either get 2 free uses of "Faith Manages" or you may increase your Conviction by 1 when rolling for "Faith Manages". You may take this power multiple times, but the bonus to your Conviction may not exceed your original rating.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Taran on July 04, 2014, 12:13:55 PM
Gift of Grace -2
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When facing a supernatural force who's rolls are being benefitted by a power, your faith will level the playing field. This power may be taken multiple times, with each repurchase increasing the benefits by 1 step.
Hope Rises: Supernatural creatures do not benefit from inhuman Strength or Speed when targeting or dodging you. Spells and supernatural attacks (such as incite effect) Have their power reduced by 2 shifts.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered your highest skill for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer. When repurchasing this power, increase the bonus given by Righteousness by +1.
Smite: You gain +1 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

It's basically Taran's Gift of Grace, but modified modified so that the interactions with magic/incite effect are suppressions rather than blocks. I also effectively compressed it in to one a repurchasable power.

I wouldn't lumped it all together.  It seems more confusing to me.  I did it the other way to make it simpler.  You buy the level you want and you know exactly what it does.  What does "1 step" really mean?  It can be confusing.

When I buy a Strength power, I choose which level I want and pay the refresh.

Suppression vs Block
Assuming you have all the upgrades and Bless this house, you'd have a 9 shift effect.

Suppression:
If you get hit with an accuracy 15, Power 10 attack (which is possible at -17 refresh), You still have to dodge the 15 accuracy.  When you get hit, though, the spell will only be weapon 1, since the power is reduced by 9 shifts.  So you'd get hit for 1 (weapon) stress + 15 minus your normal dodge in stress.

The problem with Incite effects is they don't have "power" to reduce.  They are strictly accuracy.  So what would you do?

Block
If you get hit by the same spell, your minimum dodge would be 9.  You'd still get hit by a weapon 10 hit + 6 (for the difference) for a total of 16 stress.

By using a Block, it affects Incite and spells the same way, making it less confusing.

Quote
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered your highest skill for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer. When repurchasing this power, increase the bonus given by Righteousness by +1.

You've made this ability completely useless for you.
If your skill pyramid is:

+6 Conviction; Athletics
+1-5  Other skills

Potent prayer would compliment every skill except athletics(which it already does without the power).  By stating that conviction acts as your highest skill, it still won't compliment athletics because it will still be the same as athletics. That was the point of saying it's infinite.  So that it will compliment every skill in your skill tree.  Your version still doesn't fix the "cheesiness" of people who leave their conviction at Fair hoping to still have it compliment everything.

If you don't want it to be infinite, then you should state that your skill is considered Legendary or Epic for the purposes of modifying.  There's already a stunt that lets discipline be considered Fantastic for the purposes of modifying.  And strength Powers say that Might ALWAYS provides a bonus, regardless of skill comparison.  This is what I was trying to get at.

Providence -1
Description:
Your choices and beliefs have a profound impact, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide my Hand and Holy Touch
Skills affected: Conviction
Effects:
Faith moves Mountains: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you either get 2 free uses of "Faith Manages" or you may increase your Conviction by 1 when rolling for "Faith Manages". You may take this power multiple times, but the bonus to your Conviction may not exceed your original rating.
It doesn't say how often 2 uses is.  Is it 2/session?

There are a lot of Faith Powers that need FP to activate.  Why don't you have this power give you 2 free activations of ANY faith power/session?  That way you can use it for potent prayer, or bypassing toughness etc...

It's a 1 refresh power that lets you save 2 fp's every session.  Sessions are pretty long, so I don't see this as over-powered.  Spending FP's on everything seems to be the biggest complaint with Faith Powers so this kind of 'fixes' it a bit.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 05, 2014, 03:36:36 AM
Gift of Grace -2
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When facing a supernatural force who's rolls are being benefitted by a power, your faith will level the playing field. This power may be taken multiple times, with each repurchase increasing the benefits by 1 step.
Hope Rises: Supernatural creatures do not benefit from inhuman Strength or Speed when targeting or dodging you. Spells and supernatural attacks (such as incite effect) Have their power reduced by 2 shifts.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered your highest skill for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer. When repurchasing this power, increase the bonus given by Righteousness by +1.
Smite: You gain +1 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

More Potent Prayer's repurchase effect is too good. It's basically +1 to every non-Conviction skill most of the time.

And its first purchase effect is just weird. It's only really handy if your Conviction is unimpressive.

If you fold More Potent Prayer into Smite so this Power gives +1 to Conviction for Righteousness in general, I'll allow it. Even if the wording's a bit iffy.

Weight of Belief -1
Description: The force of your convictions shake the world.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide My Hand.
Skills affected: Conviction
Effect: As long as you can justify it through belief, you may employ Conviction to do Declarations as if it were a Knowledge and Perception skill. This doesn't so much reflect actual knowledge or perception as your belief that things will go as they should, and the favorable outcomes Providence arranges.

Approved.

Providence -1
Description:
Your choices and beliefs have a profound impact, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide my Hand and Holy Touch
Skills affected: Conviction
Effects:
Faith moves Mountains: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you either get 2 free uses of "Faith Manages" or you may increase your Conviction by 1 when rolling for "Faith Manages". You may take this power multiple times, but the bonus to your Conviction may not exceed your original rating.

Approved. Though if I was writing the Power I'd make each effect come from a separate Power for clarity's sake.

The uses are per session.

Using the free uses on other Faith Powers might or might not be too strong. Honestly not sure. We could give it a try.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on July 05, 2014, 04:05:45 AM
Rewrote Gift of Grace in accordance with Sanctaphrax's directions and went back to blocks thanks to Taran's infinite clarity. I had forgotten that defense rolls could work with blocks, and I am therefore an idiot.

Gift of Grace -2
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When facing a supernatural force who's rolls are being benefitted by a power, your faith will level the playing field. This power may be taken multiple times.
Hope Rises: Creatures do not benefit from Inhuman Strength or Speed when acting or reacting against you, and higher powers are reduced by 1. Spells and supernatural attacks (such as incite effect) face a 3-shift block, Increase the level of Speed/Strength powers affected by 1 and the strength of the block by 2 with each repurchase.
More Potent Prayer: When using Righteousness, your Conviction is considered to be at +1, and increases by a further +1 with each repurchase.

(I assume this is what you meant by folding them together)

Re: Weight of Belief - Awesome!

Re: Providence - Rewrote it so that the powers are separate. Also made it so that the free fate point applies to holy powers in general to try it out. If you feel it's too strong, we can move it back.

Providence -1
Description: Your choices and beliefs have a profound impact, granting you favor above and beyond simple chance.
Musts: The character must have taken Guide my Hand and Holy Touch
Skills affected: Conviction
Effects:
This power has two effects, and one may be chosen with each purchase (and subsequent repurchases thereafter)
Strength of Spirit: Your faith is strong. When taking this power, you get 2 free uses of your Faith powers that require a Fate Point per session.
Faith moves Mountains: Your Faith empowers you. When taking this power, you may increase your Conviction by 1 when rolling for "Faith Manages".
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 05, 2014, 05:02:44 PM
That's not what I meant by separating the effects. That's still one Power. But that's not really important right now.

And yes, that is what I meant about the Righteousness bonus.

Two clarifications regarding Hope Rises: does it lessen levels of Speed/Strength higher than it can negate, and how high does the block go when you repurchase it? It starts at 3 shifts, then it goes to...3 shifts?

Anyway, I'm fine with either reducing the weapon rating of magical attacks or giving an automatic block. The block as it stands looks rather weak, though.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on July 06, 2014, 06:20:27 AM
Made a few typos/omissions by mistake. GoG is supposed to reduce the effectiveness of higher level Speed/Strength by 1, +1 for each repurchase. The block is supposed to start at 3, then to 5, then 7 with each repurchase. It's meant to be implied that it can get higher still if the game you find yourself in gets the refresh level up that much. Fixed those, though the wording might be a little clunky.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Taran on July 06, 2014, 08:00:35 AM
Why don't you make it like a building block power?

Here's my Attempt.  The numbers would have to be played with.

Gift of Grace [-See Below]
Description: You are guided and protected by your faith.
Musts: Guide my Hand, Righteousness
Skills affected: varies
Effect: When facing a supernatural force who's rolls are being benefitted by a power, you become the equalizer:

[-2]Inhuman Grace: 
The great Equalizer: Supernatural creatures do not benefit from inhuman Strength or Speed when targeting or dodging you.  If they have Supernatural or Mythic Speed/Str, these powers are down-graded by 1.
Spells and supernatural attacks(such as incite effect) face a 3-shift block.  If you have Bless This house, increase the block by +2.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered infinite for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer.
Smite: You gain +1 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

[-4]Supernatural Grace: 
The great Equalizer: Supernatural creatures do not benefit from Supernatural Strength and Speed when targeting or dodging you.  If they have Mythic Speed/Str, these powers are down-graded by 2.
Spells and supernatural attacks face a 5-shift block.  If you have Bless This house, increase the block by +2.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered infinite for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer.  Your prayers give an additional +1 (for a total of +2).
Smite: You gain +2 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

[-6]Mythic Grace: 
The great Equalizer: Supernatural creatures may not use Strength and speed powers against you.  Spells and supernatural attacks face a 7-shift block.  If you have Bless This house, increase the block by +2.
More Potent Prayer:Your conviction is considered infinite for the purposes of modifying skills when using potent prayer.  Your prayers give an additional +2 (for a total of +3).
Smite: You gain +3 to Conviction when using the Final Hour trapping of Righteousness.

**Certain attack would get past this.  Throwing a car at the person would still hurt like hell.  They wouldn't get the +6 weapon damage for, say, Mythic STR, but they'd still get the weapon damage of the thrown car.  Or could be pinned under said car with the appropriate maneuver since the power doesn't reduce lifting capacity.  It would reduce the bonus to grappling or, possibly, negate the bonus for modifying skills when using Might against said PC.
@sacta. Reposted the original power for your convenience.

Making it a straight bonus for righteousness makes sense. 

I still think it's smoother as separate powers.  Choose your level and it's all spelled out.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 07, 2014, 12:47:40 AM
Separate Powers would probably be clearer, but whatever. We have something usable.

Could you finalize your character now, JayTee?
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: JayTee on July 07, 2014, 03:29:21 AM
Done and done, I also modified the languages of GoG so that it was less clunky. Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Custom True Faith powers for review
Post by: solbergb on July 20, 2014, 03:59:29 PM
I tend to lean toward the earlier idea that you just skin SU powers with faith-based flavor.

For toughness powers, the catch is that it doesn't work against mortals using mundane effects, because free will. (a wizard zapping you with a spell doesn't satisfy the catch.  A wizard who sets the building you are in on fire won't satisfy the catch in the direct attack, but invoking the mundane "on fire" aspect of the building would.  A demon punching you doesn't satisfy the catch, a wizard punching you would, unless he's magically enhancing his punch somehow).

The character I had in mind was based on the prophet who wrestled an angel and won.  He'd be the emissary of  Uzziel ("Strength of God") and in addition to the usual righteous/holy touch stuff to satisfy catch of the faith-based baddies he had SU strength and SU toughness.  I used human form +1 bonus to simulate that he could only manifest this strength against supernatural opponents, or barriers (blocks/maneuvers) keeping him from such opponents.  There was some aspect support to keep the powers in line with the vision.  The toughness soaked supernatural strength and/or claws type abilities pretty well, in addition to various magical attacks, his holy powers and SU strength meant he could hurt nearly anything even if he didn't satisfy the catch, obviating the need for a power like those of the Sword.

You could do a fair bit of this with just plain stunts too..."+2 to athletics to dodge attacks from non-mortal, non-mundane sources".   Likewise "+1 to guns when shooting opponents with unnatural defenses (like toughness, inhuman speed, magical blocks)" covers quite a bit.

What I like about this approach is it's all about your choices, not the choices of the other guy.  I don't have to know if my enemy has SU speed to know what my bonuses are, I just know that I get to use my SU strength on that enemy in this scene.

Likewise you can skin a lot of offensive powers as faith based.  My white court virgin evangelist had the usual white court incite fear abilities/feed fear which he never used, but when he had his Holy Book (+1 artifact) handy, he could wave it and preach and do weaponized (weapon 4, range) fear effects on supernatural enemies.  (the holy book could also stop bullets heh...but only if it was in his shirt pocket.  He did Guide My Hand by flipping through it and reading the verse, then deciding what to do...or preaching from it if substituting a skill)

If I'm going to generate a new faith based power, it needs to do something fairly unique.  I'm a fan of Guide My Hand, for example, because it helps with fate point economy (the fate points you save showing up as needed are used for the conviction-based power at need), letting you spend fate points on cooler effects than just being where needed.     

Something along the lines of just happening to have the right resource to beat a catch "I was inspired to get a butane lighter at Walmart today" seems to fit the faith powers better than just brute force defeating all catches the way the Swords do (those are major artifacts - that ability should be uncommon).