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Messages - Wanderer

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DFRPG / Re: Alternatives to the pyramid system
« on: June 09, 2017, 08:31:20 PM »
Sanctaphrax made a similar suggestion, but his solution included raising the skill bottom and lowering the skill points pool, which I unfortunately found too awkward and troublesome to implement. As I understand it, your solution does not shuffle skill points around, and so may be more acceptable for my character-building aims. As it concerns your own idea, at which power level would you implement raising the bottom of the pyramid? I have defined a power level scale ranging from 10 refresh, 35 skill Points to 22 refresh, 70 skill points.

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DFRPG / Alternatives to the pyramid system
« on: June 08, 2017, 12:04:37 AM »
While I agree with the spirit and apparent purpose of the pyramid system (preventing excessive specialization in a few very high skills for a character), I found sticking to the letter of the law gets increasingly dysfunctional and annoying, especially at high power levels. At some point, you're not so rarely forced to put points in skills that look useless or inappropriate for the character, use skill allocation schemes that seem suboptimal for the concept, and so on. To sum it up, the rule seems appropriate as a broad, flexible guideline, but its strict application is a pain in the butt. Has anyone good suggestions on how to adjust or replace it?

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DFRPG / Re: Being a bane for technology
« on: June 07, 2017, 09:33:56 PM »
I see and agree with the points both of you were making, now I fully understand your intent, and I totally agree about the flavor. I'm just skeptic I can spare such a scarce resource as an Aspect just to make a specific reference to the biker lifestyle, when I need them to cover so many other features of background and personality. I already made an oblique reference to it about 'freedom of the road' being one of the few things the character respects. I suppose I could compress another Aspect to 'Chivalrous Biker and libertine' but that's it. And on second thoughts I can adjust the High Concept to 'Half-Sidhe Sorcerer/Wizard and Martial Artist'.

I already picked Craftsmanship at +1 in the highest power-level builds to appease the pyramid, I happy this angle gives some concept justification to the purchase. I suppose I may anticipate its purchase in lower power-level builds by switching the skill with some other one of minor relevance to the character, such as Contacts or maybe less optimally Investigation or Scholarship (but I assume a character with very high Lore should have some minor proficiency in the latter two skills).

To raise its value to +2 without breaking the bloody pyramid seems rather more difficult. At first glance, I'd have to swap it with Weapons (but I'm uncertain which skill is more valuable and appropriate for a biker, martial artist, and wizard) or with Survival (which seems very fitting for the character's lifestyle). Or to break the symmetry between the Deceit/Empathy or Intimidation/Rapport couples, but I prefer such complementary social skills to have similar scores without a good concept reason to the contrary. Pyramid forced me to put points in skills, such as Burglary and Contacts, I have little use for. I'm getting more and more frustrated with it, and more and more tempted to houserule it away. 

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DFRPG / Re: My first character for review
« on: June 06, 2017, 02:23:02 PM »
I made a few other adjustments, to include suggestions in the other thread. Now the character is a biker too.

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DFRPG / Re: Being a bane for technology
« on: June 05, 2017, 07:59:06 PM »
Your suggestion has merit. Speaking in general, the character concept and personality vibe well with being a biker. Pretty much all his magic items (gloves, rings, bracers, pendants, etc.) may fit within the biker aesthetic. Aspects are too much a limited resource to use one just to make a specific reference to the biker lifestyle, but I suppose I may squeeze in an oblique one ('I Know No Law But Friendship, Honor, And Freedom of the Road'). And he certainly fits being a 'bad boy'.

I'm just doubtful about making him a professional repairman. I admit it would give him some use for points put into Craftmanship, besides repairing his own stuff when wrecked by his Murphyonic field. But making it his job might be at odds with his 'Bane for Technology'  Aspect. Moreover, due to the bloody pyramid system I doubt I can spare the skill points to make his Craftmanship any higher than Average, or Fair at the very most by making some tough choices. And I dunno if that would be enough to represent a professional artisan or dedicated hobbyst.

I'm getting more and more dissatisfied with the pyramid system, and seriously considering houseruling it away like I did with the Laws of Magic. I can certainly see the point of preventing excessive specialization in general, but the rule just seems dysfunctional and getting in the way of good concept ideas, especially at high skill-points-pool levels.

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DFRPG / Re: Being a bane for technology
« on: June 05, 2017, 01:37:57 PM »
Hmm, your idea is not without merit but over time I've grown so accustomed to the notion of my characters' powers being internalized or at least imbued in easy-to-carry, hard-to-lose items that to tie them to something as bulky as an helmet just feels awkward and innatural. However if gauntlets look appropriate for +2 Refresh, they might fall just within the bounds of what I deem acceptable. I suppose the character may carry them tucked in or tied to his belt, or in a backpack with the rest of his ritual tools, when he does not use them. Rather than the Sight or Sponsored Magic, such an item seems fitting to have Claws, Inhuman Speed, and Inhuman Strength enchanted in it. I suppose I might call it Gauntlet of Might.

I don't regard the character being deemed a full wizard that much important. It is only necessary he has Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Sponsored Magic, Toughness powers, enough Refinement to have all elements, and wizardly longevity (which he gets anyway with Inhuman Recovery). He certainly does not care about the White Council and their opinion of him. So being a changeling sorcerer does suffice, and indeed the lowest power-level builds give him that template. But with enough Refresh, having the Sight, some extra Refinement for more generalist bonuses to Evocation, and the above physical abilities sure feels nice to round up the character's power set and make him look and feel close to complete. In comparison, I would not give Soulgaze the time of day, even at free cost. At this point, only Wings, True Shapeshifting, and Swift Transition would remain on my to-buy list.

By the way, besides my own preferences, I realized having a serious problem with tech may encourage characters like mine with an hyperactive Murphyonic field to adopt a semi-nomadic lifestyle. They may draw only so much benefit from mundane equipment and wealth: almost all the items they may use w/o wrecking them by being close are freely available at Average expenses or lower. So unless they have a special interest in owning an especially fancy living space or high-quality library or laboratory facilities (my character doesn't), they may well embrace the rootless lifestyle. So I think Harry living in a rented apartment does make sense, although w/o his perpetual poverty problem, he could perhaps afford a better lifestyle.

As it concerns my character, he may rent apartments or a room in hotels or even live on the road, buy time or trade favors to train in dojos, and carry the vast majority of his ritual tools and personal stuff in a backpack or two. He probably got accustomed not to rely too much on having a library or sanctum. Much like martial-arts training, he likely trades favors with allies and contacts when he has need of such arcane resources (it seems it takes some serious wealth and effort anyway to build high-quality libraries and sanctum facilities), and otherwise he carries the vast majority of his occult lore memorized in his head, or perhaps he makes use of summoned and bound spirits of knowledge. I assume the vast majority of his expenses come from renting, traveling (assuming he does not use the Nevernever, which he probably does to some extent), training, occult research, and ritual materials. Being lecherous/hedonist, in all likelihood he also spends some significant time and money looking for casual sex and partying.

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DFRPG / Re: My first character for review
« on: June 04, 2017, 05:24:23 PM »
For reference, at the moment I'm using the following power level scale, which I modified from the one found in the 'New Power Levels' thread. I'm not entirely satisfied with the names and their sequence, but I'm creatively challenged about this kind of stuff.

Submerged 10 35 Superb
Below the Surface 11 35 Superb
Bottom Of The Pool 12 40 Superb
Snorkeling 13 45 Superb
With The Fishes 14 45 Superb
SCUBA Diving 15 50 Fantastic
Big Fish, Bigger Ocean 16 50 Fantastic
Punched a Shark in the Nose 17 55 Fantastic
Wish I Had A Submarine 18 60 Fantastic
I Spy Atlantis 19 60 Fantastic
Swimming In Weeds 20 70 Fantastic
In A Submarine 21 70 Fantastic
Look, Spanish Gold 22 70 Fantastic

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DFRPG / Re: Being a bane for technology
« on: June 04, 2017, 05:19:23 PM »
Not really, as long as you stick a powers you already planned to buy (or bought) into the iop.

Speaking in general, of course you are quite right. As it concerns my current character, however, I'm not sure about a -1 Refresh power that I'd wish to give him, fits the concept, and makes sense to embue in a chain whip or the like. Possible options might be Claws or Wings. Alternatively, Incite Emotion, with Fear, Lust, or Despair.

About the latter option, however, if and when I buy this power for a character, in all likelihood it shall have a higher refresh cost, since I prefer it to have the Additional Emotion and Lasting Emotion upgrades. The more 'dark' emotions available (lust, fear, wrath, pain/despair) the better, for combat uses, mental manipulation options, and feeding flexibility if a WCV character. Someday after the changeling wizard concept is done to exhaustion perhaps I'd like trying my hand at the WCV sorcerer one, too.

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DFRPG / Re: Being a bane for technology
« on: June 04, 2017, 01:11:51 AM »
Double post.  If you want to be "game-y", you can do this: separate your powers between two item.  One big obvious one with 1 refresh worth of powers: golden lasso that has incite effect: physical blocks.

Then Take bracers (which can be hidden under a jacket) and load them up with powers: Speed, toughness etc...

Since you only get the rebate once regardless of how many items you have, you get the +2 rebate for the lasso.  If you lose the lasso, you only lose 1 refresh worth of powers.

Someone seems to have their imagination affected by recent viewing of a certain movie  ;)

Since I find character optimization an interesting and rewarding intellectual exercise, I do not mind reasonable amounts of gamey-ness in myself and other players.  ;D Worthwhile trick in general, although not so useful for characters that are already built at maximum affordable refresh (you gain one refresh's worth of powers, but you have to raise the power level anyway). Lasso might be a bit too camp for any other character but a clone of WW, but I suppose it could be replaced by a chain whip or somesuch. 

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DFRPG / Re: My first character for review
« on: June 04, 2017, 12:33:32 AM »
I made a few other adjustments. Despite my dislike of dependence on magical items, I realized I might as well fill the free focus item slots (but nothing more, I'm not going to invest refresh in item slots). According to character concept and my playstyle preferences any magical items of his are supposed to be few in number, easy to conceal, and hard to lose. I also decided to make an exception at the highest power-level build, raise Refresh threshold a bit, and give him an Item of Power just to round up his Supernatural physical abilities. Of course, this is supposed to be temporary, a training device until he can internalize these powers thanks to his changeling concept.

The pyramid system forced me to invest points in a few skills with limited value for the concept, but on second thoughts I realized among them the character perhaps has just a bit more use for Weapons than Scholarship, so I reshuffled points accordingly. The character is heavily focused on magical abilties, martial arts, and mystical expertise, and has a mandatory low-tech lifestyle, so he probably has limited use for extensive mundane knowledge, with the possible exception of administering first aid. But the latter would require the Doctor stunt to be truly useful, and the character needs all the refresh he can afford for supernatural powers. Besides, one version of the character can easily and quickly do healing magic by means of sponsored magic, and the other is supposed to be mystically focused on destructive abilities.

I also realized the character might not have that much use for high Resources, due to his mandatory low-tech lifestyle, but I do not have a better use for those points. Almost all the mundane equipment he's able to use is freely available at Average expenses or lower. Being lecherous and focused on his magical and martial skills, I assume he probably spends most of his extra cash offstage on dating, martial-arts training, occult research and rituals, and traveling (assuming he doesn't use the Nevernever, which he probably does to some extent, given his high Lore and ties to Faerie and other Powers). I suppose he might invest his money into a decent Arcane Sanctum and/or Arcane Library, but given his independent mindset and trouble with tech, he's likely committed to a semi-nomadic lifestyle, living in hotels and rented apartments, if not on the road. Given his very high Lore, he probably carries the vast majority of his occult expertise in his head and his ritual tools in a backpack.

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DFRPG / Re: My first character for review
« on: June 03, 2017, 06:08:30 PM »
In regards to actions that so not align with a sponsor:  it's easily covered with compels.  If you want to do something with sponsored magic that doesn't meet with the agenda, it simply won't work.  Here's a FP, you can't use it for this scene.

If you have a FP , your sponsor gives you a pass, but if you can't  afford to pay it off, then you are out of luck. 

Not sure the best way to dealing with revoking powers.  If you are doing things against your sponsors agenda enough that you are getting lots of compels, it probably means something is happening in the game, story-wise,  that will justify droppping it at a milestone.

These seem quite reasonable guidelines to play SM with. As it concerns my character, I did try to develop his personality so there would be no blatant incompability at first glance with the agendas of the Powers I picked as sponsors. I did not regard Kemmlerian Necromancy as a viable option since I find the ghost-summoning and zombie-raising parts of necromancy unappealing magic feats to RP. As it concerns the cursing and destruction components, which do appeal to me, there is nothing KN does in this regard which Unseelie Magic and/or Hellfire do not do just as well or better. The only part of KN that might have serious interest for me is the possibility to use psychomancy as Evothaum. But then again, a magic specialization in necromancy seems a prerequisite for unlocking the power, and I dislike RP being especially interested in trafficking with dead stuff.

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DFRPG / Re: Being a bane for technology
« on: June 03, 2017, 05:50:51 PM »
Hmm, I'm not sure I may often find it that easy to define if a power would only be useful in combat or not, but I'm doubtful about the character being asked to 'check it out' an obvious wearable item as it were a firearm or melee weapon (and the character going along with the request). And as I said, I'm pretty much only going to use items that cannot be lost or stolen in combat (short of the character being made unconscious or powerless) because I loathe the alternative. So going by your guidelines I suppose any character of mine is only going to use the +1 version of Item of Power, if any.

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DFRPG / Re: My first character for review
« on: June 03, 2017, 04:14:50 PM »
I've rewritten the OP character builds according to thread discussion (including a more concise skill list).

By YS287, every spell must align with the agenda of the sponsor. If that agenda no longer has a place for you in it, the GM should give you your Refresh back.

I suppose so, although I'd expect the GM to be broad-minded and flexible about fitting the character in the agenda of the sponsor. The individual spell might or might not fit, and the GM should certainly make the character (and the player) sweat if they go into debt, but I assume pretty much nothing less of directly and purposefully acting against the agenda of the sponsor (as the character and player understand it) should allow the sponsor to cut off the character for good.

The agendas of Summer, Winter, Heaven, Hell, and Death (to quote all the established major Powers that bestow SM in canon) seem so broad and vast it should be easy for most characters that are willing to deal with such powers to find a place in them. Moreover, as we said, it is even doubtful the Archangels are able to withdraw access to Soulfire in the first place, and I'm just as doubtful there is any identifiable sapient agent that manages access to Kemmlerian Necromancy. As far as I know, only a few pagan Gods, such as the Norse ones, have been established in the setting as sapient and active Powers with an agenda that may bestow their own version of SM, but the features of the latter have not been established in the rules. As far as I can tell, a Sponsor should not have leeway to cut off access to SM at will or otherwise bully or coerce them if the character is 'in the clear' with them (no standing debt, power is not used in a way contrary to the sponsor's agenda).

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Losing Powers isn't really covered by the rules, so you could call the Refresh refund a houserule, but I think it's kind of a no-brainer.

Full agreement here.

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Bear in mind, by the way, that characters don't really buy things with Refresh. Players do. Refresh isn't real in-story, except as a very loose representation of how much freedom someone's got.

Yeah, although as you know I have my own reasons to be radically hostile to the notion Refresh is in any way related to free will. I very much prefer to interpret it as a measure of the character's potential for mystical/physical/mental greatness (depending on whether we deal with supernatural powers or mortal stunts) at any given stage of their existence. If you wish, a potential for self-development, rather than free will. 

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Sainthood is a specific Catholic institution. And you have to die to become one. So no to the last question.

Paranet Papers updated the Soulfire rules. Now, instead of debt, you get an extra stress track that you can draw on for a little extra power. The lack of debt is part of what makes me think that they can't revoke Soulfire.

That being said, I vaguely recall a WoJ that Hellfire and Soulfire are different takes on the same thing. So maybe your Soulfire will become Hellfire if you become a sufficiently bad person.

Yeah, although I suppose the poster also wished to know if a saintly disposition would be a prerequisite for having Soulfire. If we take Harry as an example, I'd say certainly not. Otherwise I'd be unable to give Soulfire to my character. He's an anime-style anti-heroic character that has his own nobility and may often end up saving the day or doing the right thing for various reasons, but he's no moral paragon by the conventional Abrahamic definition. He's irreligious, arrogant, lecherous, quick to anger and violence, and greedy for (being the best at) mystical power and martial skill. Although he's not much interested in mundane wealth or social influence, nor he is especially vain, envious, gluttonous, lazy (if anything the opposite), or prone to despair (ditto), if we go by the traditional sin classification.

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DFRPG / Re: My first character for review
« on: June 02, 2017, 09:14:00 AM »
As for Soulfire, I'm not sure the angels have any authority over its use. They can choose not to give it to you, but once it's given I don't think they can take it back.

As far as I can tell, any Sponsor is not free to revoke access to their power arbitrarily or at will. They have leeway to impose sanctions and restrictions if the character does go into debt, or directly tries to damage them or their agenda. But otherwise the gift of power, once given, cannot be revoked. The character paid for it with whatever Refresh represents, after all.

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DFRPG / Re: My first character for review
« on: June 02, 2017, 09:00:56 AM »
Though I note that's a *LOT* of different powers in-play;  IIRC not even Dresden himself had simultaneous access to Hellfire and Soulfire!  I'd be Doylistically worried that all these heavy-duty obligations might result in MOST of his time being spent on the agendas & conflicts of those other Powers, and less on his own agendas & motivations.

Well, I may point out that even at the highest power-level builds the character is assumed to have at most two different, mostly thematically compatible, types of Sponsored Magic: either (Unseelie Magic AND Hellfire) OR (Seelie Magic AND Soulfire) according to alternative versions, never Hellfire and Soulfire simultaneously. I think this is potentially manageable in terms of ties and obligations, also b/c the two power source sets tend to favor decay/destruction or growth/creation, respectively.

Even in the theoretical case the character is developed beyond the 20/21 Refresh threshold, in all likelihood I'd invest the additional Refresh mostly to round up the power set with more concept- and Sidhe-appropriate inborn Supernatural Powers, which the current build downplays a little. Say, a 30/31 Refresh version of the character would likely be:

Claws (-1)
Evocation (-3)
Human Guise (+0)
Inhuman Recovery (-2)
Inhuman Speed (-2)
Inhuman Strength (-2)
Inhuman Toughness (-2)
The Catch (cold iron, trappings of Winter/Summer, and unholy/holy stuff) (+3)
Refinement (Evocation - element x2, Evocation – specialty x3) (-5)
Sponsored Magic (Soulfire) (-3) OR Sponsored Magic (Hellfire) (-2)
Seelie Magic (-2) OR Unseelie Magic (-2)
Thaumaturgy (-3)
The Sight (-1)
Swift Transition (-2)
True Shapeshifting (-4)
Wings (-1)

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Faeries like those bargains, favor-for-service.  Occasionally, it even works out well for the mortal involved... although the further up the Fae food-chain you go, the less likely it becomes that a bargain will seem like "a good idea" (or even "not a horrible idea") by the time you're done!

Pixies?  A bargain a day keeps trouble at bay!
Faerie nobles?  Oh CRAP, what did I do??!?

No contention here, although I may point out the character is supposed to gain access to Seelie/Unseelie Magic because of his half-Sidhe heritage, with little bargaining with the Faerie Courts being necessary to get the power in the first place. Once the character goes into debt compel to tap additional power a few times, then it is another matter entirely.

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The only "bargain" that Hell is interested in is the one that gets them your soul (or some sort of access to it, e.g. part of your True Name; or you doing (or permitting) something likely to tempt/corrupt you or another person), and as Burke noted The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing, so taking a "deal" to just do "nothing" can be effectively a complicit action.

A couple things to point out: first, the character is supposed to gain access to Hellfire because he got a Denarian shadow, much like it happened to Harry. As far as I can tell this avenue involves little direct bargaining and favor-trading with the Fallen to gain the power in the first place. Much like with the Faerie Courts, however, once the character goes into debt compel a few times, it is another matter entirely. Second, in fiction and RPG the cases concern a minority when a deal with the forces of Hell directly and immediately involves the end-game of a soul-trade in exchange for any significant power, favor, or service coming from Below. There is a rich lore about the cases when a whole lot of different bargains, favors, and services are traded instead for a good while.

I may also remark this character is the kind of person that is not much concerned at all about the final disposition of his soul in the Hereafter, if any (he's not a religious person, he lives in the present, and he may expect to live a very long time barring a violent death because of his faerie and wizard heritage), although he does care about his self-image and honor. Certainly corruption may be the end-goal of the Fallen, and dealing with them entails the risk of advancing the cause of evil one way or another, but to do so by minimizing such issues is where the challenge is all about.

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Heaven... apparently doesn't MAKE that kind of bargain, or demand those kinds of services.  They got that ineffable thing goin' on.
 They apparently nudge the "right person for the job" in the direction of "a job that needs doing," and just MAYBE if they see you're doing a Good job (note the cap-G) you end up with Soulfire or some other sort of "reward".  But -- being ineffable and all -- their Reward is one likely to be useful in other Heavenly endeavors and/or to end up doing Heaven's Work in other ways.  They're ruddy bastards that way!

That's more or less how I expect dealing with the Sponsor would go in Heaven's case. I may also point out that according to PP Soulfire has a different way (soul stress) of paying for overextending one's credit at the Sponsor bank than the usual debt compel.

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