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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Eguzky on July 07, 2022, 03:15:21 AM
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Idea: Christ's Crucifixion Was A Result Of, Or Action Against, The Outsiders
We know that items pertaining to Christ's crucifixion are back in play as weapons against the Outsiders. And belief holds that Christ gave his life to absolve humanity of their sins, right? Well, what if we changed 'absolve humanity of sin' to 'protect humanity from Outsiders'?
It would fit that God's son gave his life to protect humanity and, in so doing, created items that can be used explicitly to fight the Outsiders he was striking back against.
Heck, I would not be surprised if Judas was working with the Outsiders to kill Christ, possibly in a ritual aimed at God, but Christ turned it around and made a willing sacrifice to protect the world. I mean, why else would items of faith have power against Outsiders when there's not a whole lot of people believing they would?
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I like your idea; however, why would Christ wait until year 33 to sacrifice himself? Wouldn't it have made more since to sacrifice himself at the start of creation? Maybe the Outsiders were about to break through, and Christ's sacrifice was to reinforce the barrier? I had a WAG a while back where I proposed that the five artifacts could summon Christ himself.
On the other hand, I am not sure Jim would change the reason for Jesus's crucifixion/life. It is such an important moment to so many people that it could be dangerous for his career/book sales to mess too much with it.
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I thought Jim had hinted that Christ himself was a Starborn. n.b. this doesn't have to be "instead of" the Biblical account of the Son of Man / Son of God, but sits very-nicely alongside it, as a hidden ancillary -- by being Starborn, He linked Himself into the Starborn cycles, enabling other Starborn to wield His artifacts & relics against the Outsiders.
Christianity has a very long and deep tradition -- older in fact than the Church itself! -- of esoteric / occult / Gnostic / mystery-cult thinking and practice. We see just such an organization in the Ordo Malleus, to which Forthill himself belongs.
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My theory? Christ got Nemfected because the White God just had to have a human avatar and the Crucifixion was to cure him, the crown to subdue, the grail to purify, the placard to protect, the spear to alter the probability of success and the Shroud the revive the avatar.
The nails we know were thee Angels. This leads to a question.
What happened to the holy claw hammer, and is it secretly in the ownership of Michael Carpenter? It would explain so much.
I think the artefacts are actually former Gods or Archangels, placed in that form by the White God.
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The Shroud, the Placard, the Spear, the Grail, the Sword and the Coins are not Outsider specific artifacts. They just happen to be effective against everything -- as Dresden notes about the Spear. He says, it was more real than everything else, it was not just a spear -- it was a spear against everything. Nicodemus intended to use the pseudo-Shroud to start a plague when we first met him. I think it more likely that they are all-purpose items.
As for JC being a Star Born -- I dunno, it doesn't seem like the timing works out, every 666 years or so from 4 BC means Star Born cycles at 662AD, 1328AD and 1994AD. Dresden (and Butcher) are GenX'ers to the core and so the timing is off by several decades, regardless of whether you use 7BC, 4BC or 1AD for the birth of JC.
As for JC being Nemfected, that seems unlikely. JC is a person of the Trinity, so the HS and the Father would also be Nemfected. Whether you personally believe in God, clearly that being is "real" for purposes of the Dresdenverse and according to the Nicene Creed -- the Father and the Son are of the same substance:
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
consubstantial to the father
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Personally, I do not believe that Angels are contained within the Placard, Shroud, Grail or Spear. There are Angels in the Swords, just as there are Demons in the Coins. I don't think an imprisoned (willing or otherwise) being is required to make a potent artifact. I'm fairly sure that no Demon resides in Marcone's butterfly knife, which he successfully used on Ethniue, it worked because Marcone has Infernal sponsorship. (Plot hole for BG: Why didn't Harry use Soul Fire on Ethniue?).
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... (Plot hole for BG: Why didn't Harry use Soul Fire on Ethniue?).
Because she's a couple of orders of magnitude tougher than anyone he's ever faced?
Remember: she punted Mab.
Shagnasty was more outraged at Harry's presumptuousness, than injured by Harry using Soulfire. LTW, on his own, forced Shagnasty to retreat. Jim has stated that the *entire* Senior Council, with maximum preparation/readiness, would most-likely lose if they fought Mab.
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Because she's a couple of orders of magnitude tougher than anyone he's ever faced?
Remember: she punted Mab.
Shagnasty was more outraged at Harry's presumptuousness, than injured by Harry using Soulfire. LTW, on his own, forced Shagnasty to retreat. Jim has stated that the *entire* Senior Council, with maximum preparation/readiness, would most-likely lose if they fought Mab.
Also Harry understands Soulfire better now. Remember his eureka moment about it in Cold Days when he used it to stop Mother Winter from killing him. He knows now that it is more than just something to enhance spells etc.. So because of his understanding I doubt he would have used it on Ethinu.
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Well, what if we changed 'absolve humanity of sin' to 'protect humanity from Outsiders'?
How about a combo, and the sin in question was calling up Outsiders?
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(Plot hole for BG: Why didn't Harry use Soul Fire on Ethniue?).
I have had the same thought. I wonder if Harry used so much Soul Fire when creating his ice wall to slow down the Jotuns that he didn't want to risk using anymore? Or after losing Murphy he couldn't access it temporarily. Remember Bob said that the soul grows back with laughter and joy (or something like that), maybe Harry didn't have any joy in him when facing Ethniue so he couldn't use it? Like when Harry couldn't create the pocket chief of sunshine in SK because of what happened to Susan.
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The Shroud, the Placard, the Spear, the Grail, the Sword and the Coins are not Outsider specific artifacts. They just happen to be effective against everything -- as Dresden notes about the Spear. He says, it was more real than everything else, it was not just a spear -- it was a spear against everything. Nicodemus intended to use the pseudo-Shroud to start a plague when we first met him. I think it more likely that they are all-purpose items.
As for JC being a Star Born -- I dunno, it doesn't seem like the timing works out, every 666 years or so from 4 BC means Star Born cycles at 662AD, 1328AD and 1994AD. Dresden (and Butcher) are GenX'ers to the core and so the timing is off by several decades, regardless of whether you use 7BC, 4BC or 1AD for the birth of JC.
As for JC being Nemfected, that seems unlikely. JC is a person of the Trinity, so the HS and the Father would also be Nemfected. Whether you personally believe in God, clearly that being is "real" for purposes of the Dresdenverse and according to the Nicene Creed -- the Father and the Son are of the same substance:
Personally, I do not believe that Angels are contained within the Placard, Shroud, Grail or Spear. There are Angels in the Swords, just as there are Demons in the Coins. I don't think an imprisoned (willing or otherwise) being is required to make a potent artifact. I'm fairly sure that no Demon resides in Marcone's butterfly knife, which he successfully used on Ethniue, it worked because Marcone has Infernal sponsorship. (Plot hole for BG: Why didn't Harry use Soul Fire on Ethniue?).
33 BC. Crucified in 1AD. Cycle fits perfectly. Bit out of date for modern thinking, but it's been bandied.
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I have had the same thought. I wonder if Harry used so much Soul Fire when creating his ice wall to slow down the Jotuns that he didn't want to risk using anymore? Or after losing Murphy he couldn't access it temporarily. Remember Bob said that the soul grows back with laughter and joy (or something like that), maybe Harry didn't have any joy in him when facing Ethniue so he couldn't use it? Like when Harry couldn't create the pocket chief of sunshine in SK because of what happened to Susan.
Because the binding was the only shot in his arsenal which would work, and that is a matter of will, not power.
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33 BC. Crucified in 1AD. Cycle fits perfectly. Bit out of date for modern thinking, but it's been bandied.
No you've got it backwards. Christ was born in the later years of Augustus and crucified during reign of Tiberius. There are some debates amongst scholars and theologians as to the precise year of his birth and death, but not enough to change the Star Born timing problem here.
Here's wikipedia (yes, I know):
The date of birth for Jesus of Nazareth is not stated in the gospels or in any secular text, but a majority of scholars assume a date between 6 BC and 4 BC.[15] The historical evidence is too ambiguous to allow a definitive date to be determined,[16] but the date has been estimated through known historical events mentioned in the Gospels of Matthew chapter 2 and Luke chapter 2[17] or by working backwards from the estimated start of the ministry of Jesus.[18][19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_Jesus
The crucifixion of Jesus occurred in 1st-century Judea, most likely in either AD 30 or AD 33. Jesus' crucifixion is described in the four canonical gospels, referred to in the New Testament epistles, attested to by other ancient sources, and is considered an established historical event by many,[1] although there is no consensus among historians on the exact details. There were 4 people present at the scene. These were Saint Peter, Mary Magdalene, Mary, mother of Jesus and Mary, wife of Clopas.[2][3][4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus
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No you've got it backwards. Christ was born in the later years of Augustus and crucified during reign of Tiberius. There are some debates amongst scholars and theologians as to the precise year of his birth and death, but not enough to change the Star Born timing problem here.
Here's wikipedia (yes, I know):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_Jesus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus
You didn't hear what I was saying.
If the Crucifixtion was 1AD, as some mildly religious people think, Christ is born in 33BC and the cycle fits. It's Butcher's story, there's room for him to say "People think X when it's Y"
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There are people on this forum who think Christ was one third of a 30lb Grey Tomcat, so you argument pales in comparison.
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I think the items are older than Christianity and just got extra meaning attached.
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I think the items are older than Christianity and just got extra meaning attached.
There is a WOJ to that effect. The Spear could be Zeus Thunderbolt (capable of killing gods), the Shroud the Golden Fleece etc etc. they have had many names over the millenia.
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There is a WOJ to that effect. The Spear could be Zeus Thunderbolt (capable of killing gods), the Shroud the Golden Fleece etc etc. they have had many names over the millenia.
One would think Zeus would be miffed that another deity took his item?
Jim has been very careful to avoid angering any one religion by trying to compare powers, so I don't know how it'd go to have relic theft.
Then again; one could argue that Zeus gave up his Thunderbolt explicitly to make it stronger, since everyone agrees Outsiders are bad news.
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The Greek Gods were the Defenders before Winter, so it might have consensual.
The White God is God, Zeus is a god, it depends on the deal Zeus cut with the White God. Hades decided to live permanently in NeverNever, Odin in the mortal world at the expense of his immortality. Zeus may have cut an Odin deal and died long since without the equivalent of the Kringle Mantle, he might be living it up in retirement in Olympus.
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The Greek Gods were the Defenders before Winter, so it might have consensual.
The White God is God, Zeus is a god, it depends on the deal Zeus cut with the White God. Hades decided to live permanently in NeverNever, Odin in the mortal world at the expense of his immortality. Zeus may have cut an Odin deal and died long since without the equivalent of the Kringle Mantle, he might be living it up in retirement in Olympus.
Well, Olympus would be in the Nevernever, right?
Dresden has said that most afterlife areas seem to be areas of faerie. I think the line was something like '<something> is in faerie. So are hades, ghenna, and a dozen other reported afterlives'.
At this point, since What Comes Next is unknown (Ghost Story), this leads me to believe the gods (lower-case g) have NeverNever realms, while the White God has something more.
That said; I did not know the Greek gods were defenders before Winter (Must have been a side story I did not read?). So I would not be surprised if Zeus did give his Lightening to the White God.
But even if the Placard or the Dagger is Zeus's Bolt, and was used against Outsiders in Zeus's time; these items were sill part of Christ's crucifixion or life now. Which would lend weight that Christ did something to help strengthen them further, possibly against Outsiders.
(Also sorry for the slow reply; I went into the ER last Monday and had my gallbladder removed. Been recovering)
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The closest parts of the NeverNever to the mortal world is Faerie. That’s why most of the Ways travel through it.
It’s a WOJ about the Previous Defenders but can be deduced from whose power they made the Mantles of Faerie the current Defenders.
I believe the White God has issued a proscription on god Level beings being active in the mortal world, the Queens are the most powerful tolerated, (and that I think was designed into the Mantles) the more powerful Mothers stay in the NeverNever, along with the likes of Hades, in their own realms, very deep within the NeverNever difficult for Wizards to reach.
Some gods took a demotion like Odin to stay in the mortal world, great Dragons like Mr Ferro manifest only part of their power. Ethnui was in breach of that Proscription, and ended up having two Knights and the White God’s Favourite Idiot sicced on her, leaving her in the one place in the Mortal World the White God accepts her presence, Demonreach.
As Mr Ferro said his full presence in the mortal world would break it, which is why the god level beings are not allowed there.
The only reason for this is to allow humanity to evolve, they will be the next Defenders, and given Jim’s age and reading habits humanity when it builds up its numbers and technology will create the Singularity AKA the White God.
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The closest parts of the NeverNever to the mortal world is Faerie. That’s why most of the Ways travel through it.
It’s a WOJ about the Previous Defenders but can be deduced from whose power they made the Mantles of Faerie the current Defenders.
I believe the White God has issued a proscription on god Level beings being active in the mortal world, the Queens are the most powerful tolerated, (and that I think was designed into the Mantles) the more powerful Mothers stay in the NeverNever, along with the likes of Hades, in their own realms, very deep within the NeverNever difficult for Wizards to reach.
Some gods took a demotion like Odin to stay in the mortal world, great Dragons like Mr Ferro manifest only part of their power. Ethnui was in breach of that Proscription, and ended up having two Knights and the White God’s Favourite Idiot sicced on her, leaving her in the one place in the Mortal World the White God accepts her presence, Demonreach.
As Mr Ferro said his full presence in the mortal world would break it, which is why the god level beings are not allowed there.
The only reason for this is to allow humanity to evolve, they will be the next Defenders, and given Jim’s age and reading habits humanity when it builds up its numbers and technology will create the Singularity AKA the White God.
Nothing says there's a rule against great beings manifesting. Certainly none made by the White God.
The reason Ferro does not manifest is because:
1. It would anger humanity, and if 1 Knight can kill a dragon, then all 8 billion people, scared and angry at the last freaking dragon levelling a city can do it.
2. The one time his full power is needed (The Battle For Chicago); he has to hold back or he'd level more of the city than he'd save. Meaning manifesting would run against his goals.
At no time does Ferro says he cannot, or that anything would stop him.
In Battle Grounds, he says appearing in his true form would harm the city, which no one wants. Not 'The White God prevents me' or 'It would anger the White God'. Nor does he imply that he can change explicitly because the White God is letting him.
And nothing implies that the White God is punishing Eithnu for using too much power or breaking any of His rules against such.
The Knights take to the field for the same reason they always do; to stop evil. Eithnu was killing scores of mortals, which is the same reason the Knights fight the Nickleheads; stop stop evil (and to save the possessed).
At no point have the books ever so much as hinted that little-g gods were limited by the White God.
In fact, what few little-g gods we have met tend to say things like 'My followers are few and scattered' (Odin), implying it's BELIEF that gives them strength, or takes it away. Not the White God.
As people stopped believing in Odin (as in actual followers who prayed to him), he lost much of his power. He as much as says so when Harry asks for help in Changes.
I think it's something like 'My power is not what it once was. My followers are few and scattered.' Not 'The White God (or anything else) prevents me.'
Unless I am really missing some parts; nothing has said the White God is not allowing them to have full power.
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The closest parts of the NeverNever to the mortal world is Faerie. That’s why most of the Ways travel through it.
It’s a WOJ about the Previous Defenders but can be deduced from whose power they made the Mantles of Faerie the current Defenders.
I believe the White God has issued a proscription on god Level beings being active in the mortal world, the Queens are the most powerful tolerated, (and that I think was designed into the Mantles) the more powerful Mothers stay in the NeverNever, along with the likes of Hades, in their own realms, very deep within the NeverNever difficult for Wizards to reach.
Some gods took a demotion like Odin to stay in the mortal world, great Dragons like Mr Ferro manifest only part of their power. Ethnui was in breach of that Proscription, and ended up having two Knights and the White God’s Favourite Idiot sicced on her, leaving her in the one place in the Mortal World the White God accepts her presence, Demonreach.
As Mr Ferro said his full presence in the mortal world would break it, which is why the god level beings are not allowed there.
The only reason for this is to allow humanity to evolve, they will be the next Defenders, and given Jim’s age and reading habits humanity when it builds up its numbers and technology will create the Singularity AKA the White God.
Wow. Other than your first sentence, literally none of your statements are supported by the text. Your screen name fits you extremely well.
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The Great Beings don’t manifest or are very polite generally about doing so in the mortal world. The point about Ferro makes my point, the White Gods enforcer killed Syriothax and Michael could only have done so in the mortal world, ergo A Dragon was manifesting too much of itself in the mortal world and had to be punished, just like Ethnui.
The only being capable of enforcing such politeness is the White God, the most powerful being in the Multiverse.
The Knights ONLY do the bidding of the White God, that means principally oppose the Knights of the Blackened Denarius, but we have seen Michael and Butters take on other foes. We first see both Michael and Butters taking on a threat to infants, that’s a pattern, the White God doesn’t like the supernatural attacking those who have yet to develop free will. That’s two rules.
1. Don’t enter the Mortal World if your presence is going to break reality and put mortalkind in danger (the Denarians were an attempt to get around this)
2. Don’t attack infants who have yet to develop free will;
If you are a Denarian or other breaker of rules 1 and 2 expect to be faced by the Swords and MY other Champions. I include The Queens and Ladies in the latter as well as everyone granted Soulfire like Harry, Odin and (probably Martha Liberty). The White God or at least Uriel look more and more to have had a hand in the creation of the Mantles, including Kringles
The White God is very Free Will.
The White God (the same God of Michael, Butters and Saladin) wins hands down on number of believers, and has the other gods in a headlock.
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The Great Beings don’t manifest or are very polite generally about doing so in the mortal world. The point about Ferro makes my point, the White Gods enforcer killed Syriothax and Michael could only have done so in the mortal world, ergo A Dragon was manifesting too much of itself in the mortal world and had to be punished, just like Ethnui.
The only being capable of enforcing such politeness is the White God, the most powerful being in the Multiverse.
The Knights ONLY do the bidding of the White God, that means principally oppose the Knights of the Blackened Denarius, but we have seen Michael and Butters take on other foes. We first see both Michael and Butters taking on a threat to infants, that’s a pattern, the White God doesn’t like the supernatural attacking those who have yet to develop free will. That’s two rules.
1. Don’t enter the Mortal World if your presence is going to break reality and put mortalkind in danger (the Denarians were an attempt to get around this)
2. Don’t attack infants who have yet to develop free will;
If you are a Denarian or other breaker of rules 1 and 2 expect to be faced by the Swords and MY other Champions. I include The Queens and Ladies in the latter as well as everyone granted Soulfire like Harry, Odin and (probably Martha Liberty). The White God or at least Uriel look more and more to have had a hand in the creation of the Mantles, including Kringles
The White God is very Free Will.
The White God (the same God of Michael, Butters and Saladin) wins hands down on number of believers, and has the other gods in a headlock.
The Knights don't do the White God's 'bidding'.
And again; literally NOTHING in the books has said the stronger beings don't manifest their powers due to some rule from the White God. Not once.
You are drawing conclusions that don't exist.
You are saying 'Michael killed a dragon + Michael is a Knight. Thus; the White God decided dragon's can't use their full power'. The conclusion has nothing factual to back it up over the more common 'The dragon was being evil, so Michael killed it'.
You will notice Ferrovax is not mentioned to kidnap and devour maidens. He's not nice by any stretch of the word, but he's not EVIL. Or, at least, not doing evil things during Harry's lifetime.
And since he's not being actively evil; he's not being slain by a Knight.
You are trying to make square pegs fit into round holes with your theory, as nothing in any material (that I know of) says the White God ever decreed 'Super powered beings can't use their power or my Knights will kill you'.
The Knights punish EVIL. Not 'Anyone who uses all their power'.
Your theory is wild guesses strung together by crumbs that have 0 connective thread other than what you try to hammer into place to make it work.
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Of course, and it drives people mad.
Especially when they come out correctly. Most recently that Harry would gain the Castle and that Bob would be internet capable for Harry, I believe at one point even streaming Star Wars related material for him.
I am often wrong but sometimes right, so if you invest time in ridiculing my theories be prepared that I might be right and you have invested a lot of time and energy in being wrong.
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Of course, and it drives people mad.
Especially when they come out correctly. Most recently that Harry would gain the Castle and that Bob would be internet capable for Harry, I believe at one point even streaming Star Wars related material for him.
I am often wrong but sometimes right, so if you invest time in ridiculing my theories be prepared that I might be right and you have invested a lot of time and energy in being wrong.
So, basically, you admit to making wild guesses with 0 evidence to back them up, and sometimes get it right on sheer luck?
Sorry but your posting is starting to sound an awful lot like trolling, so I'm going to stop responding to you.
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None of my speculation is pure guesswork I refer to the Files, mythology, science, literature, WOJ etc and precedent, internal consistency (and inconsistency). We have some idea of what Jim has read and researched and can extrapolate from that.
And to be clear my dear Eguzky, you were trying to troll me, trying to get a rise out of me by denigrating the theories I put forth, but I wouldn’t take the bait. They are only theories, new information may confirm, refute or require modification of any of them the next time Jim does an interview or a short story is published, or someone makes a clever connection which I didn’t make but fits in beautifully, or opens up new fields of speculation. Even the scornful can do the last.