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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on October 09, 2021, 10:06:16 PM
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Why Mab so wants an alliance with the White Court.
Page 111-112 Battle Ground;
The Black Court had been all but exterminated, thanks to a really underhanded move by Lara's people a century and change back. The only ones who were still alive--well, who continued to exist--were the oldest, wiliest, and most powerful of their kind. These vampires were old-school, the real deal, nightmares of the Old World. A Black Court vampire was a match for any dozen counterparts in the Red or White Court.
Yet, Lara's people all but wiped them out, underhanded move, but that fits the White Court's M.O.
Point is, her people did defeat them once, could this be the real reason why Mab wants the alliance between the White Court and the Winter Court, what's more a star born Winter Knight, to cover her flank against Drakul, a star born and the Black Court?
Which leads to another thought, one I think we've all had.. Wills, is mere will what sets a star born apart from mere mortals?
Yeah, lots has been said about how if it hadn't been for Toot, Mavra would have had Harry.. Maybe, but for a microsecond, will against will, it was a draw between Harry and Drakul. Drakul laughs it off, but...
pages 117- 118
Drakul's black-hole eyes swept back to me, and suddenly I was being crushed to the ground by the weight of the universe itself. The very thought that I could have done something against a power like that was laughable---but I'd felt this kind of raw, universe-binding will before, in Chichen Itza. Drakul, whatever he was, had considerably more personal power than the Lords of the Outer Night had ever managed to show me. But I had hoisted those Red Court losers by their own petard,when everything was said and done. I would be damned if I rolled over for Dracula's famous dad. I ground my teeth and fought back against the power crushing me, not with my muscles but with my mind. I pictured Drakul's will as a great, dark hand pressing me down--and mine as my own hand, rising to force it away. I poured my will into the image, a couple of decades of disciplinw, experience, and focus,investing it with power, with reality with life.
Gasping, one inch at a time, I lifted my hand until my right palm faced Drakul and steadied. I couldn't stand--but I got an elbow underneath me and snarled silent defiance up at him, my right hand raised against his power.
Drakul smiled at Harry's efforts, one has to wonder though, what if Harry had put some soul fire behind it, or called upon the Spear of Destiny, what might have happened? Then Drakul goes into his arrogance act and gives Harry a whole boatload of truths and half truths and perhaps some lies as well without really telling him anything as to why he was bred to be a star born,or what it means to be a star born, and what a poor ignorant fool he is with no style, or decorum, no gravitas.. If Harry had these things he would have seduced him into playing for his team.. Then just as Drakul is about to kill him, Harry uses all of the above to launch into a knock, knock joke, which confuses and delays Drakul until River and Listens get into position. For a short while the three are doing okay until Mavra came on scene. Now was it because Harry had no style that Drakul didn't seriously try to recruit him, or did Drakul realize that a guy who had resisted the Shadow of one of the Fallen, wasn't going to knuckle under to him whatever he promised?
Which brings us back to Mavra, and what Harry says to her back in Dead Beat.. Harry is warning her in the final chapter not to get to him through Murphy or his other vanilla friends.. Mavra laughs it off says he hasn't got that kind of power..
Page419
"This ever happens again," I said quietly. "You try to get to me through other mortals again and I'll kill you."
Mavra's rotted lips turned up at one corner. "No, you won't," she said in her dusty voice. "You don't have that kind of power."
"I can get it." I said.
"But you won't," she responded, mockery in her tone. "It wouldn't be right."
Then Harry lists what power he can get potentially, everything from taking up a coin to becoming Mab's Winter Knight, this pisses Mavra off and Harry tells her to leave his town. So what is the point of this?
Well, Mavra knew at that point in time that Harry was a member of the White Council, that he was bound by the Laws of Magic. So she was confident that he'd never be able to kill her because he was bound by doing the right thing, he wouldn't do what he'd need to do to kill her. They were also standing by his grave that said, "He died doing the right thing.." Well, Harry is no longer a member of the White Council, he isn't bound by those rules. Could this be the real reason the Council voted him out? Because they know from this time forward it will become necessary for Harry to break a lot of rules, so they are distancing themselves from him? Harry can do what needs to be done, and because he is no longer a Council member their hands are clean.
Then on page 420 of Dead Beat, Malcolm says something that counters "Harry is now a monster," accusations that Carlos made at the end of Battle Ground..
I looked away from . "I did things. I made a deal I shouldn't have made. I crossed a line."
"I Know," he said. "It only means what you think it means."
I looked up at him. "What?"
"Harry, life isn't that simple. There is such a thing as black and white. Right and wrong. But when you're in the thick of things, sometimes it is hard to tell. You didn't do what you did for your own benefit. You did it so that you could protect others. That doesn't make it right---but it doesn't make you a monster,either. You still have free will. You still get to choose what you will do and what you will become."
All of the above is spot on and why Harry is no monster. Harry didn't do any of the stuff Carlos accused him of for his own benefit. Then we get to why Harry will never become a monster. page 421 Dead Beat;
"As long as you believe you are responsible for your choices, you still are. You've got a good heart, son. Listen to it."
The above is was the ingredient that made Margaret decide to conceive a star born with this man.. Malcolm's good heart, and Harry inherited it. That is why Harry will never become a monster.
Margaret knew that, so do the Council, Harry will never become their monster to control, or anyone else's..
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Harry's probably more of a monster in the Jordan Peterson sense of the idea, you can't be good if your harmless. But if your a monster who chooses to control himself your a gentleman. He's the Boogeyman to a lot of evil beings himself these days. (Not accounting for him taking literal monsterous form at some point)
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Lara wants Harry and through him she wants something from Mab. I suspect she knows what is coming and is jockeying for position. Her favors probably played to Mab's strength. Reason. Harry is good cover for her. And a child would lock Harry in.
Monster
one who deviates from normal or acceptable behavior or character
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Should be noted - in that list of options Harry mentions the Darkhallow. I think that is at least an order of magnitude over the mantle or the Coin. She may think the mantle helps Harry. the Coin might help more - Ascher, supposedly less talented and powerful than Harry (ref_ Gatekeeper, saying he was probably the most talented and powerful of his generation) , was making her hand a blowtorch under sprinklers that should ground her out. She was good before, sure, but Lasciel made her much better. She may think she is better than Harry - though maybe not much, she seems leery of his death curse, maybe he takes her with him - but not with the last two powerups. The one he took, the mantle, is the weakest. With the Darkhallow, he might be more Drakul's level.
Also I don't buy the White Council cutting Harry free to do things against the Laws of Magic. They step up and enforce them against warlocks who didn't even know the council existed... and were ready to execute Molly, who knew they existed, but didn't know the laws - Harry didn't know she manifested talent, so never told her the rules. so.... the rules is the rules. They will claim the rules still apply to Harry.
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Also I don't buy the White Council cutting Harry free to do things against the Laws of Magic. They step up and enforce them against warlocks who didn't even know the council existed... and were ready to execute Molly, who knew they existed, but didn't know the laws - Harry didn't know she manifested talent, so never told her the rules. so.... the rules is the rules. They will claim the rules still apply to Harry.
I don't disagree with any of that, oh, they will still want to execute Harry for a number of things, because rules are rules. However they also need him to do a number of things that break the rules, rules that even the Black Staff can't break. If Harry is still part of the Council when he breaks them, he is executed for sure, but a huge scandal goes with it because he is a Council member. This way, he does what needs to be done, gets executed, and the Council is covered because before all this went down they expelled him and declared him rogue.
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Lara wants Harry and through him she wants something from Mab. I suspect she knows what is coming and is jockeying for position. Her favors probably played to Mab's strength. Reason. Harry is good cover for her. And a child would lock Harry in.
Monster
one who deviates from normal or acceptable behavior or character
For Lara, just like for her father, children also mean power. If she can raise the children on her terms that is.
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The closest Harry will ever become to being a monster was when he was bent upon killing Rudy, but decided not to.
Lara may want an alliance with Mab to kill off the last of the Black Court, which appears to have reformed under Drakul instead of Junior, who may be on the verge of making a better Black Court Vampire in his image. Harry has of course antecedents on killing off Vampire Courts.
If Drakul estranged from the Black Court due to the ‘inferior’ Black Court vamps created by Junior was Lord Raiths protector then he was also the leaker of their weaknesses to the White Court to remove the weak embarrassments created by Junior. With the Word of Kemmler and Wizard recruits, Drakul may now be in the position to refine Juniors original design grounds enough for him to end the alliance with the White Court. Imagine a new type of Black Court Vampire more like Drakul, not rotting corpses, without the weakness to sunlight, garlic, holy water etc and powerful magic users. Mini Drakul’s under his command.
Drakul was a Member of the Accords, which prohibited him from attacking other Members without cause, he reneged on that in BG so he has no compunctions now against attacking the White Court now, lifting his protection from Lord Raith and pitting Black against White. Hence Lara is cosying up to Mab.
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The closest Harry will ever become to being a monster was when he was bent upon killing Rudy, but decided not to.
Agreed, plus he takes full responsibility for losing it for a moment.
Lara may want an alliance with Mab to kill off the last of the Black Court, which appears to have reformed under Drakul instead of Junior, who may be on the verge of making a better Black Court Vampire in his image. Harry has of course antecedents on killing off Vampire Courts.
Which gave him confidence to match his will with Drakul's will..
If Drakul estranged from the Black Court due to the ‘inferior’ Black Court vamps created by Junior was Lord Raiths protector then he was also the leaker of their weaknesses to the White Court to remove the weak embarrassments created by Junior. With the Word of Kemmler and Wizard recruits, Drakul may now be in the position to refine Juniors original design grounds enough for him to end the alliance with the White Court. Imagine a new type of Black Court Vampire more like Drakul, not rotting corpses, without the weakness to sunlight, garlic, holy water etc and powerful magic users. Mini Drakul’s under his command.
His current close aids are the Black Court Vamps of the old school, but they still seem to be suseptable to the usual, as we saw when Toot gave her a garlic implant.
Drakul was a Member of the Accords, which prohibited him from attacking other Members without cause, he reneged on that in BG so he has no compunctions now against attacking the White Court now, lifting his protection from Lord Raith and pitting Black against White. Hence Lara is cosying up to Mab.
He's the one protecting Lord Raith? I don't remember that in the books, is it a WOJ?
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Lord Raiths protection has something to do with outsiders. The rest is pure speculation.
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Kinder makes sense something is protecting Lord Raith and the Outsiders are limited in being to operate ’behind the lines’ With the Gates closed to them. Mab wouldn’t have allowed the White Court to join the Accords if It was actively dealing with Outsiders, that much is clear from the later books and Winters true role.
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Kinder makes sense something is protecting Lord Raith and the Outsiders are limited in being to operate ’behind the lines’ With the Gates closed to them. Mab wouldn’t have allowed the White Court to join the Accords if It was actively dealing with Outsiders, that much is clear from the later books and Winters true role.
She is not all knowing.
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Indeed, for all we know Lord Raith’s protector was the Titan and Mab didn’t know about that, but she was able to deduce the existence of Nemesis in her own Court.
However Mother Winter is all knowing, just not all telling.
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Lord Raiths protection has something to do with outsiders. The rest is pure speculation.
That is what I thought, Drakul is a star born but I don't think he has anything to do with Outsiders.
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Yet, Lara's people all but wiped them out, underhanded move, but that fits the White Court's M.O.
Point is, her people did defeat them once
The White Court didn't defeat them though. They released their weaknesses to the world. They were killed off by human armies, wizards, and everyone else in the world. Unless the White Court has some sort of other secrets about them, they really don't have much to offer.
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I don't think the Council cut Harry loose so he can do "what's necessary" without having to follow White Council rules. For one thing, they have the Blackstaff when they need someone to break the Laws of Magic. Mostly, I think the Merlin and most members of the Senior Council are truly afraid of what Harry has become.
Unless, one of the Senior Council has some way of scrying on Harry to see what's he's up to, they can only base their opinion of him based on rumors and a few known facts. I think we've all seen the list from the fictional Warden File assessing Harry's accomplishments and abilities. We can add to that what they might know since Harry came back from the dead; which is scary all by itself, seeing as how the last guy who used to regularly pull off that trick was the necromancer Kemmler.
Harry becomes Mab's hitman.
One Fairy Queen gets capped by Harry. (Karin pulled the trigger, but the Council isn't going to know that.) Another Fairy Queen dies at the same time. Would the Council know that Maeve did the deed or ascribe it to Harry even if they hear Maeve was the culprit? I doubt we can say, either way. Plus, there are a number of explosions in Chicago around the time of Harry's return. Meaning Harry is on some kind of rampage.
Rumors may have got out that Harry worked with Nicodemus and that Harry is now once again in possession of powerful Holy relics. At least the Gatekeeper would probably know this last part. It might also get out that Harry worked with Binder. Not that the Council could claim that Harry committed any crime by doing so, but it sure wouldn't help his reputation any.
Harry has his own personal army of tiny fae to do his bidding.
Harry used fire magic to kill some Fomor servitors. Personally, I don't see how those guys can be considered as fully human any longer, but that's how Jim wrote it; so, it is what it is.
Harry and Marcone take down Ethniu, but Harry only reveals to Mab and the other non-human supernatural players that Marcone is now a Denarian. From the White Council's perspective, Harry must have done it by himself with Marcone being nothing more than bait or a distraction for Ethniu.
Unfortunately, Peace Talks and Battle Ground didn't really give us much in the way of information about the state of play within the White Council itself. I assume the Merlin and Cristos are still jockeying for position, while the Gatekeeper mostly does his own thing and Ebenezer watches with alarm; as Harry doesn't appear to have any other major allies within the Council.
I think the Council isolated Harry so that either someone else can get rid of him for them, or they can squash him without a trial or political maneuvering if and when they feel the need to do so.
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The gatekeeper won’t say anything. He is keeping the white council uninformed for centuries now.
I think the white council knows the servitors are not really human. Ramirez more or less admitted that but the laws can be freely interpreted to suit the white councils purpose if they want to.
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I think the Council isolated Harry so that either someone else can get rid of him for them, or they can squash him without a trial or political maneuvering if and when they feel the need to do so.
That may be true, but why is it that they won't tell Harry what task he was bred to do, by them I might add. I still think Margaret put a huge monkey wrench in their plans when she chose Malcolm as the father. That totally screwed up their calculations. It could have been the White Council that ordered the murder of Malcolm and accounted for the stupid manner that young Harry was treated at the time.
Harry used fire magic to kill some Fomor servitors. Personally, I don't see how those guys can be considered as fully human any longer, but that's how Jim wrote it; so, it is what it is.
Yes, and it was written that way to underline that the charges against Harry were trumped up to convict in a kangaroo court. However the White Council also knows that many others of it's members killed Fomor servitors with magic and didn't want to execute them.. So they altered the sentence.
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Agreed, to an extent the servitors had given up their free will to the Fomor, and I suspect in the Dresdenverse Free Will is the indicator of humanity.
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Agreed, to an extent the servitors had given up their free will to the Fomor, and I suspect in the Dresdenverse Free Will is the indicator of humanity.
Then it comes down to in the case of the Turtlenecks, did they volunteer for it? In which case their plight is the consequence of their own free choices. However even so, once the choice is made and the physical and other changes happens, is the Turtleneck still human? The same holds true even if it wasn't a free choice. Take Mab, at some point in her life she was human, or perhaps maybe a changling with the free choice to chose her path.. Most would argue that now she is 99.99% fae and .01% human, if she is killed by magic this Halloween, did the wizard who did it violate the First Law of Magic?
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The White Council can be summarized by this quote from Daniel Webster.
Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
Daniel Webster
US diplomat, lawyer, orator, & politician (1782 - 1852)
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Whether the servitors volunteered or not they no longer had free will. Listen a Starborn must be viewed as a separate case. The Fomor hated humanity, they will have made sure it was extinguished in their own ranks where possible.
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The White Council can be summarized by this quote from Daniel Webster.
Here is another quote about good intentions that we are all familiar with, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." So the White Council's intentions were and are good, but they are damning themselves in the process.
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The Fomor Servitors suddenly getting to be human, makes little sense to me. If the Fomor Servitors are human, how are the White Court Vampires not human as well?
Both are "humans" with something not human grafted onto them. White Court have little free will in being so, or at least the way that Lord Raith ran things.
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The Fomor Servitors suddenly getting to be human, makes little sense to me. If the Fomor Servitors are human, how are the White Court Vampires not human as well?
Both are "humans" with something not human grafted onto them. White Court have little free will in being so, or at least the way that Lord Raith ran things.
They are not, but just enough to for the purpose of convicting Harry..
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They are not, but just enough to for the purpose of convicting Harry..
This, essentially. They were just an excuse for the Merlin to give Dresden the boot. If it had been Carlos that fire-balled a group of Turtlenecks, it'd have been totally legit.
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I think the Merlin knew that letting Harry slip his leash would make him a more powerful force for good. The White Council can't do anything overt if Harry starts flouting the laws of magic. They'd run afoul of Mab, both as head of the Winter Court and as the enforcer behind the Winter Accords. Harry is already part of Winter and soon will be under the aegis of the White Court's protection. Kicking Harry out and threatening him with the Doom of Damocles is political posturing. The Black Council thinks they can use it to get Ebenezer killed, that's it. They have to recognize that when it comes to Harry, they're toothless.
It's going to suck for them when Ebenezer, as a last act of defiance, wills Harry to be the next Blackstaff.
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I think the Merlin knew that letting Harry slip his leash would make him a more powerful force for good. The White Council can't do anything overt if Harry starts flouting the laws of magic. They'd run afoul of Mab, both as head of the Winter Court and as the enforcer behind the Winter Accords. Harry is already part of Winter and soon will be under the aegis of the White Court's protection. Kicking Harry out and threatening him with the Doom of Damocles is political posturing. The Black Council thinks they can use it to get Ebenezer killed, that's it. They have to recognize that when it comes to Harry, they're toothless.
It's going to suck for them when Ebenezer, as a last act of defiance, wills Harry to be the next Blackstaff.
I think the Council was pushed into this. Most don't want Dresden there, but I think pressure was applied. Either from Mab, or maybe the Black Council.
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Never underestimate the power of Harry to piss off authority figures.
The Merlin has wanted rid of Harry for a long time, recognising he is uncontrollable. Harry disappearing for 2 years must have been like his prayers answered.
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Never underestimate the power of Harry to piss off authority figures.
He's made an art of it and prides himself on it, I think it might even be one of his star born powers. ::)
The Merlin has wanted rid of Harry for a long time, recognising he is uncontrollable. Harry disappearing for 2 years must have been like his prayers answered.
Yup, ever since Harry bested him in that little political one on one back in Proven Guilty. Which is another reason why he'd want it over and done without his allies present or more importantly, Harry present.. They couldn't kill him outright though, because the evidence they are using doesn't pass the smell test. However he isn't above manipulating the likes of Carlos, who is suffering both physically and mentally from his contact with Molly and the loss of his friends.
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The Merlin is supposed to be the arch politician of the White Council, being outmanoeuvred by Harry must have been galling, like Nicodemus finding himself out doublecrossed by Harry, or when Lea got outsmarted by Harry with the mushroom poisoning, or Lord Raith having his weakness deduced by Harry and turned against him.
You know if they all compare notes Harry is toast.
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The Merlin is supposed to be the arch politician of the White Council, being outmanoeuvred by Harry must have been galling, like Nicodemus finding himself out doublecrossed by Harry, or when Lea got outsmarted by Harry with the mushroom poisoning, or Lord Raith having his weakness deduced by Harry and turned against him.
You know if they all compare notes Harry is toast.
You left out the Red King whom Harry hoisted upon his own petard and it killed him and all of his race.
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The Merlin is supposed to be the arch politician of the White Council, being outmanoeuvred by Harry must have been galling, like Nicodemus finding himself out doublecrossed by Harry, or when Lea got outsmarted by Harry with the mushroom poisoning, or Lord Raith having his weakness deduced by Harry and turned against him.
You know if they all compare notes Harry is toast.
Not gonna happen.
Unless he's Black Council, Langtry wouldn't work with Nic or Lord Raith. Lea probably was happy overall to be tricked by Harry. She's an extremely tough love teacher but she does want Harry to succeed ultimately. I doubt Lara lets dear old dad have a long enough leash to correspond with Nic.
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You left out the Red King whom Harry hoisted upon his own petard and it killed him and all of his race.
The Red King? Lea, Nicky, Merlin and Raith compare notes? One of this things is not like the other, one of these things is not quite the same. Unless they use a Ouja board, bit difficult.
Never underestimate the power of Harry to piss people off.