There's a lot of trust placed by this game on players and GMs alike to be mature and responsible during play. It's one of my favourite things about the game, that the fun really hinges on the group co-operating. If a GM's throwing compels around just to screw over the players, he needs to re-think why he's running the game.

This is the most important fact that I hoped would come of this topic. Conversely, if a player wants to slaughter NPCs left and right, and the GM does not want to run that sort of game, the foundation of the game isn't there, either. Players aren't the only ones who need to speak up if they are not having fun.

I was thinking of using Autumn/Spring Courts as the subtle cousins to Winter/Summer. To contrast the Winter/Summer, they would encourage transitions between the seasons, have patriarchal leaders, and not be bound/sworn to attack their opposite (probably dislike them, but realize they are necessary). These subtle Courts are less renowned because they do not follow the extremes of their sister Courts, but could potentially be as nefarious when it comes to maintaining the cycle (IE the Erlking's rampages). I was thinking of using the Erlking the Father/King/Prince (most likely Prince) of Autumn. Perhaps Santa Claus could somehow fit a spring motif.

I'm playing a former High Sidhe of the Autumn Court in a game.  This is how I've done it.

[-4]Summer (Seelie Magic- satisfies the catch against Autumn and Winter)- wildness, growth, renewal, birth, fire
[-4]Winter (UnSeelie Magic- satisfies the catch against Spring and Summer)- decay, slumber, death, entropy, ice
[-4]Autumn (AbSeelie Magic- satisfies the catch against Spring and Summer)- decay, slumber, death, entropy, earth
[-4]Spring (AdSeelie Magic- satisfies the catch of Autumn and Winter)- wildness, growth, renewal, birth, air


Basically, spring brings summer and thus AdSeelie.  Autumn brings winter, thus AbSeelie.  All of the powers other than fire and ice are also associated with spring and autumn from summer and winter, respectively.  To balance it, fire and ice needed to be replaced.  Since Autumn is typically associated with earthen colors and spring needed a unique element, I just gave them earth and air, respectively.

This is freaking awesome! Very similar to what I had in mind for adding Spring/Autumn magic. I would probably alter it slightly to fit the paradigm I'm trying for. Something like:

[-4]Spring (AdSeelie Magic- satisfies the catch of Autumn and Winter)- renewal, birth, warmth, peace, earth
[-4]Summer (Seelie Magic- satisfies the catch against all other Courts)- growth, chaos, knowledge, abundance, fire
[-4]Autumn (AbSeelie Magic- satisfies the catch against Spring and Summer)- death, hunting, harvest, cleansing, air
[-4]Winter (UnSeelie Magic- satisfies the catch against all other Courts)- decay, slumber, entropy, law, ice

I think this could lead to some very interesting politics/personalities in Faerieland.

For a PC RCV, could you perhaps play that draining that much blood doesn't necessarily have to kill the victim, but the RCV would have to roll against his discipline at a difficulty of each point of stress, cleared, plus 2 for the refresh cost of each power, plus the consequence amount. Failure to pass the difficulty can be taken as mental consequences.

So the Vamp may be pretty sure they can stop feeding, at the risk of suffering mental consequences ('scared to feed' 'hungry for more' etc). Of course, if they get taken out, you can assume they've killed the victim and severely traumatised themselves in the process.

Could that work?

This way could also work and it a bit more mechanical. I think this was referring only to Red Court Infected (not fully turned), but that makes me like the risk of killing if the feeding goes horribly wrong. Of course you'd want to let your player avoid dooming their character due to bad dice rolls, but it could cost them some fate points.

Needless to say, a RC Infected PC should be pushing to get tattoos of St. Giles ASAP!

Actually wardens only fool with mortal magic users.   Fae knights don't sling mortal magic, they sling fae magic.  They are not subject to the Laws, just like the Denarians.   Whether this applies to the mechanics of the world is another story though.    The wardens can't hunt down the summer knight because he offs someone with a fiery butterfly.  He's not subject to their laws, only titania and the accords.       Whether killing another human with magic twists him into a monster or not is really up to jim (canonwise) and iago and company (game mechanics wise for the "real game") or your GM (house rules style)

I understand this distinction but I read "mortal magic user" as a mortal who uses magic of any sort. Fae Knights are partially mortal, are they not? I thought their semi-mortality was what made them so valuable to the Courts. Or does Fae Knight refer to something else? I was assuming the "Knight of a Faerie Court" template in the book. Following that, they are part mortal, so I'd assume a Warden could be obliged to remove whatever portion of their head that the Fae don't claim as "theirs". Is there stuff in the books about Wardens not doing so? I'm only on the 3rd one so far. I don't mean to be argumentative, I would really like to know if that's the case - although I don't like it if it is.

So now I have to ask: what sort of prep work do you do for your cities? (Or do you think I should shift this question to a new thread?)

This is where I stopped myself from doing my usual prep work. I started with researching a Baltimore suburb thinking the campaign could grow into the Baltimore setting in the book, but after getting the framework done I set it aside. I'm putting my faith in the game developers and am going to pick/develop a city of my group's choosing as part of the 1st session. "City/Character creation IS playing!", as they said. I don't know if that would work for most groups but my group does enjoy that sort of thing. If you think your players might enjoy making the city I'd say give it a shot. It seems like a great way for them to directly influence/choose the sort of mood they're looking for. Still, it's probably be wise to have some framework for a city on standby - in case your players are shy or disinterested.

Rather than prepping a lot of city info, you can just come up with various encounters that would be appropriate. Things YOU want to see represented in the game. The important thing to keep in mind with anything you come up with, is it'll need to be able to apply to any PC. This is sort of challenging since they aren't made yet! More encouragement to procrastinate...

Personally I'm planning to have a young, repentant WC virgin NPC that will likely be victimized by a rival WC family, and likely driven to suicide (all very tentative on what intrigue the PCs discover/actions taken). For action, I'm planning to have a "monster" (a young Rawhide & Bloody Bones fae) that is killing off (absorbing) local housepets as it grows. With colorful descriptions I'm sure I can freak/gross out my players. Both of those are to illustrate aspects I want the story to have, Personal/Transformative horror and monstrous, unknown horror - and they should hold at least some interest to anyone (regardless of PC Aspects).

I was planning to introduce the game with the players quite young, around high school age. Buffy style. A lot of us liked that sort of show. Refresh would be as low as is reasonable to play, 6. They're welcome to have any supernatural in mind (or make their own up). I'm sure someone will want to play a wizard, and that is still completely available, but their power has just started to show, so they would choose what part of the wizard powers they want to have (or replace evoc/thaum with channeling/ritual if they so choose). Pure mortal is of course always an option if that suits someone. I'm also going to give them the option to play a pure mortal but let me secretly plant some supernatural in their past/future that can haunt (and change) them as the story progresses; but it's dealer's choice! They won't know what they are becoming until it starts to happen, but I'll try to match up the nastiness they take on with their character concept.

I'm hoping that matching the setting with the knowledge of the players will help everyone "enjoy their ignorance" of the setting. Both PCs and players will know little of what they encounter until they encounter or research it in character. I think this is a really good way of allowing people to slowly get in to the game and hopefully the challenge will be fun (maybe scary) too. I really don't think this prevents anyone from playing a book character, but it would be more like playing a Dresden that was still an apprentice under Justin. It could add perspective to the nature of the characters if pulled off right.

As far as the book characters power levels, Dresden SOLO'ed Storm Front. If there were 5 of him (a table of PCs), I don't think the wayward Mr. Sells and his fanatics, constructs, and bound beasties would have been nearly as much of a challenge. This actually brings up another benefit of starting small. I will be able to gauge what sorts of challenges are appropriate for a group more easily. I'll be learning how to do my thing just as the players are learning to do theirs!

I freely admit, this is not a method that would work for all groups. I'm lucky to have awesome, dorky, friends. If a group is ok with this method though, I think it's a great way to bring newbies into the Dresdenverse. Let them see it with the wonder of a child and they'll never forget.

digital3lf, you have a good point with the idea of ignorance when it comes to a new setting, especially in the supernatural genre. It is a nice way of slowly introducing people into things, but I don't think the method would work at the moment with my current cast. I'm currently looking at putting the bar just high enough to allow Wizards at the table; it keeps me from feeling guilty about throwing the really strange things at the party while giving them the options of power to keep them interested in playing.
(Last game I tried to have a Vanilla Mortal approach in a supernatural game, everyone was eying up what they were gunning to become and we never even got through character creation).

But I do have to ask. . .with that approach of yours, do you just ignore the milestones and just bring them to the next point of power, or do you just offer more Major Milestones instead?

Sorry this is long, and a little presumptuous. If this comes off as a ramble, please disregard.

I think you can get away with 8 or even 10 refresh characters and still maintain "newness" about the setting. Although you may find you're handing out more information to successful Lore or other knowledge checks (since the PC's might know more about the setting than the players actually do). It sounds like your players are looking at the supernatural powers as more of a shopping list than a list of character options with pros/cons. You know your group best, but I would try to impress the idea that supernatural power in this game causes a loss of fate points, and, in story terms, their free will. Maintaining humanity (weaknesses included) is a major theme of the setting. As soon as they "succeed" in becoming an uber powerful supernatural, the character is in negative refresh. It can be a difficult task to get in to the mindset that PCs are not the superpowered beings that they are in many other RPGs. It may help if everyone approach it as though they are intended to be the underdogs, and that is what makes them better than the monsters they face. If you or they have any experience with Hunter or Call of Cthulhu, think that style of underdog.

As far as milestones go, I am again blessed with a group that is tolerant of ad hoc experience rewards. I expect that Minor and Significant Milestones will be about as frequent as the books suggest, but Major Milestones will be given at times that are appropriate to support the dramatic flow of the game. I'm envisioning awarding a Major milestone just before the "final showdown" with a bad guy, or perhaps just after they defeat a significant Lieutenant or "right hand" of the big Bad. This way, it's both appropriate for them to advance their supernatural power slightly, and they can immediately bring it to bear against an enemy that used to be too "big" for them (and, with any luck, thoroughly deserves the PCs wrath)!

Starting at a low refresh has the additional benefit of seeing characters grow quite a bit without becoming so powerful as to sunder the planet. If players are digging the game, you can continue giving them boosts at a decent pace without having to scale up the opposition to ridiculous levels. Mind you, those types of godlike enemies can be great, but this is the case, IMO, because of what I was saying about being the underdog!