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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: iago on April 18, 2010, 02:12:06 PM
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I do, however, think we need brief guidelines for Thaumaturgical shapeshifting. It's probably not gonna be available in the midst of combat without buying some other power, but it's clearly an available ability in the setting, and some basic guidelines on difficulty seem somewhat necessary.
I agree. The discussion is underway with the developers' list right now. We're looking at potentially writing a more expanded set of guidelines for posting here on the forums, but I'm also drafting up something that can fit in the available margin space on YS283, the page right after the transformation section, since it's the closest and biggest space available. This is my current draft which just barely fits:
HARRY: Billy, I’m thinking about the transforming stuff on the previous page. What does it take to transform yourself into a form with new powers? Or someone else for that matter?
BILLY: The simplest answer is that transforming a target is like killing a target, with the taken out result being that they come back in a new form with different powers (that they have to pay refresh points for). Transforming yourself is either about producing a temporary, short-term, specific spell-effect with an obvious shift cost, or it’s about acquiring new powers with spent refresh (or temporarily—see page 92).
EDIT: The simple fact of the matter is that for a regularly shapeshifting spellcaster , I'd *buy shapeshifting powers*. The rationale for why those powers are there is that they come from spellcraft, but the cost of being able to do that should be reflected in refresh spent, IMO. If you want to look at it from one perspective, it's like refinement points spent on shapeshifting. :)
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HARRY: Billy, I’m thinking about the transforming stuff on the previous page. What does it take to transform yourself into a form with new powers? Or someone else for that matter?
BILLY: The simplest answer is that transforming a target is like killing a target, with the taken out result being that they come back in a new form with different powers (that they have to pay refresh points for). Transforming yourself is either about producing a temporary, short-term, specific spell-effect with an obvious shift cost, or it’s about acquiring new powers with spent refresh (or temporarily—see page 92).
That sounds reasonable. It also (potentially) makes doing it to yourself alot cheaper, since you can refuse to take Consequences... making it a mere 5 shift effect. Still nothing that can be done in combat...but not unreasonable. Though the Fate Point cost of some forms might get hefty. Or am I wrong about how that would work?
Also, could a spellcaster accept an inability to use magic for the duration of the spell instead of burning Fate Points ala p. 92 as the price of an equal or lesser number of powers? Or at least Evocation? Having a sorcerer turn into a hawk to spy on his foes, while not easy, doesn't seem like it should require 4 Fate Points (Beast Change, Wings, Diminutive Size, Claws), 1 Fate Point and not being able to use Evocation seems like it's more reasonable.
EDIT: The simple fact of the matter is that for a regularly shapeshifting spellcaster , I'd *buy shapeshifting powers*. The rationale for why those powers are there is that they come from spellcraft, but the cost of being able to do that should be reflected in refresh spent, IMO. If you want to look at it from one perspective, it's like refinement points spent on shapeshifting. :)
For combat shapeshifting? I couldn't agree more.
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That sounds reasonable. It also (potentially) makes doing it to yourself alot cheaper, since you can refuse to take Consequences... making it a mere 5 shift effect. Still nothing that can be done in combat...but not unreasonable. Though the Fate Point cost of some forms might get hefty. Or am I wrong about how that would work?
If I understand what you're saying, I don't think you're wrong. :) But it also means you don't need THAT many fate points to do a simple skill shuffle transformation.
Also, could a spellcaster accept an inability to use magic for the duration of the spell instead of burning Fate Points ala p. 92 as the price of an equal or lesser number of powers? Or at least Evocation? Having a sorcerer turn into a hawk to spy on his foes, while not easy, doesn't seem like it should require 4 Fate Points (Beast Change, Wings, Diminutive Size, Claws), 1 Fate Point and not being able to use Evocation seems like it's more reasonable.
Yeah, this is one of those cases where I could see playing it looser for things like the "I'm a hawk and can only do hawk things" surveillance spell. There, the transformation is almost just a special effect for a remote divination, even. Which I think is at the root of why the early-draft guidelines are loose or absent. Intent precedes system, yes, but here also intent indicates effect, and effect indicates how deeply you need to engage the system to get the result you're looking for.
I would ALSO suggest that you can eat up "tags" on temporary aspects that were created as part of the preparation of the spell in lieu of the fate points.
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I would ALSO suggest that you can eat up "tags" on temporary aspects that were created as part of the preparation of the spell in lieu of the fate points.
Yeah, that's probably the best way to do it. Makes turning into a Kodiak bear either a long OR very expensive process. As it should be for most Wizards.
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Yeah, that's probably the best way to do it. Makes turning into a Kodiak bear either a long OR very expensive process. As it should be for most Wizards.
Finding the hawk's nest and getting one of its feathers -- that's a scene, and a resulting single aspect that goes into the spell.
Yeah. Prep's a bitch. But it's also a story.
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Finding the hawk's nest and getting one of its feathers -- that's a scene, and a resulting single aspect that goes into the spell.
Yeah. Prep's a bitch. But it's also a story.
And it makes such potent magic effectively an appropriate difficulty. For example, if you need the equivalent of 4 FP to turn into a Hawk, that means you're effectively doing a Complexity 13 Spell for most purposes. Becoming a wolf with Alpha style stats (and 6 Refresh worth of powers) ups that to 17. Those both sound about right, especially when you still need to tack on duration.
Maybe you should expand on that Marginalia a little. Tacking on something about allowing Tags from spellcasting to be used in lieu of Fate Points couldn't take more than half a sentence and is something some people might not otherwise think of.
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Also, could a spellcaster accept an inability to use magic for the duration of the spell instead of burning Fate Points ala p. 92 as the price of an equal or lesser number of powers? Or at least Evocation? Having a sorcerer turn into a hawk to spy on his foes, while not easy, doesn't seem like it should require 4 Fate Points (Beast Change, Wings, Diminutive Size, Claws), 1 Fate Point and not being able to use Evocation seems like it's more reasonable.
For combat shapeshifting? I couldn't agree more.
I'd say that stacking in the no evocation would be effectivly adding in Hawk Form(human form)[+1] for a net -3. Adding in being a bird with a 7 foot wingspan, and you can drop diminitive size to get to -2 (please keep access to thamatergy in bird form if you have it, I want to see all the prep work done as a bird). Though really, for that kind of bird, I'd add back in inhuman speed and get you back to -4.
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Maybe you should expand on that Marginalia a little. Tacking on something about allowing Tags from spellcasting to be used in lieu of Fate Points couldn't take more than half a sentence and is something some people might not otherwise think of.
There's room for *maybe* two words. It's that tight of a fit. :)
EDIT: Wait! FIVE words! The parenthetical at the end now gains: "—using fate points and tags)."
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Okay so if you want to be someone who "self buffs" yourself the suggested way would be to take True Shape shifting [–4], and Modular Abilities [-Varies], and then i guess something like traumaturgy with a biomantic specialization and a decent focus item so that something like a complexity 14 action could be cast without preparation.
But if your doing it that way you don't actually need to have the thaumaturgy or cast spells at all since the ability's you paid for already give you the ability to shape shift. i know that trans formative magic is rare in the dresdenverse but it seems kinda like any such potential character would be getting double charged, since theoretically they should be able to do it just of of the thaumatirgy powers.
just some thoughts.
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But if your doing it that way you don't actually need to have the thaumaturgy or cast spells at all since the ability's you paid for already give you the ability to shape shift. i know that trans formative magic is rare in the dresdenverse but it seems kinda like any such potential character would be getting double charged, since theoretically they should be able to do it just of of the thaumatirgy powers.
Okay, then, play a guy without the Thaumaturgy powers, just the shapeshifting ones -- and show me how well he can cast every other thaumaturgy spell too.
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Okay, then, play a guy without the Thaumaturgy powers, just the shapeshifting ones -- and show me how well he can cast every other thaumaturgy spell too.
Sorry, that was flip -- I was on my way to something else while I was typing that. What I meant to be saying was...
Thaumaturgy comes with a LOT of flexibility. That ultimately is a lot of what its cost is about. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have to eat some extra cost in order to get the specific think you want out of it consistently and reliably (as represented by spent refresh), nor that you shouldn't have to summon up a lot of juice (as represented by the fate points or tags) to do it as a one-off if going for a temporary power angle on things.
And from a game balance perspective, it also keeps the wizard from being the concept that steps on everyone else's toes CONSTANTLY.
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EDIT: The simple fact of the matter is that for a regularly shapeshifting spellcaster , I'd *buy shapeshifting powers*. The rationale for why those powers are there is that they come from spellcraft, but the cost of being able to do that should be reflected in refresh spent, IMO. If you want to look at it from one perspective, it's like refinement points spent on shapeshifting. :)
That may be the goal, but cant be the start for an PC. Too expensive ;)
That said, can I have an example? Like an Self-Transformation into an Hellhound. (with the math please)
@Deadmanwalking
If you can do it, you can do it in combat too. With Potions. At least I think so :D
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Thaumaturgy comes with a LOT of flexibility. That ultimately is a lot of what its cost is about. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have to eat some extra cost in order to get the specific think you want out of it consistently and reliably (as represented by spent refresh), nor that you shouldn't have to summon up a lot of juice (as represented by the fate points or tags) to do it as a one-off if going for a temporary power angle on things.
quote alright I'm sure your starting to get fed up with me.
i was more getting at, that doing it this way kinda makes having Rituals: Biomancy -2 rather pointless. To shape-shift yourself you would have to either spend a bunch of fate points every time or take the shape-shifting powers. It is true that you'd have the added benefits with Biomancy of potentially being able to heal yourself and get yourself killed by shape-shifting others.
Its probably just my innate dislike of having to spend a temporary resource to fuel powers but it seems to me like if you can temporarily shape shift yourself then it should be controlled by making it harder to do, not by having to spend fate points to do it. Isn't the justification for having to spend fate points on temporary boosts on page 92 that the beings who can boost you in such a way are not likely to do it very often? That doesn't really seem to track one to one in the Biomancers case since the limiting factors for him would be his innate power and talent.
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Rituals: Biomancy would be full of things like supercharging your muscles (an effect that gives you, say, Weapon:2 with your bare hands for a couple scenes) and so on. For people to say "biomancy is only effective if it gives me full shapeshifting for a cheaper cost than the people who are actual shapeshifters and have paid to be that" is both missing the point and angling for a way to cheat (the latter, hopefully, unintentional).
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I think that is the problem, figuring out how to strike the balance. Thaumatergic shapeshifting feels like it should be one of the cool but hard things to do. I know I am trying to figure out how to make it work and keep it hard enough to be worth it.
It seems like it should be harder then I take you out without your resisting, and easier then a death spell/tranform fully resisiting other person, and from a game persepctice, a more impresssive/powerful from should be a bit harder (though some of that can be handled by making the rolls and tasks to get the Lore Bonuses to be harder. Dog stuff is not as hard to find as wolf for example, pigeon is easy, bald eagle is less so).
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I think part of the disconsolate is there aren't really any examples of doing things like supercharging your muscles, harden your skin, changing the ways your eyes work etc other then by taking the shape-changing or superhuman qualities. So we all try to do the easiest thing mechanically which would be emulating the powers that are similar.
If we had some kind of chart saying what the shift costs for things like [and this is of the top of my head] + to skills,+ weapons/armor ratings, altering your movement speed, getting extra stress boxes, then we could build these spells from the ground up and there would be much less confusion.
If there are costs for these listed somewhere then please forgive me, i just haven't found them yet.
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If we had some kind of chart saying what the shift costs for things like [and this is of the top of my head] + to skills,+ weapons/armor ratings, altering your movement speed, getting extra stress boxes, then we could build these spells from the ground up and there would be much less confusion.
Those are already pretty well laid out in the various spell effects found in the chapter, though. It's already clear that a block gets strength 1 for 1, armor gets a point on a 1 for 2, weapon gets a point on 1 for 1, etc; and from the rest of the book since when you take a sprint action you can move 1 zone (or overcome a border of 1) for 1 shift, that rounds out the movement stuff. Extra stress boxes would mainly manifest the way they manifest from increasing your Endurance (or Presence or Conviction) skill, I would think, though that's not normally something I'd bring into spells at all (I'd just go for the armor or block thing).
... so what are you looking for beyond that?
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... so what are you looking for beyond that?
Just bonuses to skill rolls i think, for example Inhuman strength gives you a +2 to might. Beast senses gives a +1 to sense rolls when appropriate.
I don't -think- that that is handled by a maneuver, block, attack, or weapons rating.
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Just bonuses to skill rolls i think, for example Inhuman strength gives you a +2 to might. Beast senses gives a +1 to sense rolls when appropriate.
I don't -think- that that is handled by a maneuver, block, attack, or weapons rating.
Right, that's something of a difference between things you pay refresh for (stunts, powers) and things which you *simulate*.
There's no simulation of bonuses (beyond what an Armor or a Weapon rating amounts to). Instead, you simulate the end effect: the effective rating of the rolled skill result. Because spells determine what the effect is, and then make it happen, rather than saying "I have an ability rating of Great, now let's roll to see what the level of the effect is".
So if you want to, say, simulate Inhuman Strength for lifting a heavy object (+2 to Might), really what you're looking to simulate is, say, a Fantastic (+6) result on a Might roll: i.e., spell power of 6.
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How much shifts would those powers be worth?
- Aquatic
- Claws
- Diminutive Size
- Echoes of the Beast
- Hulking Size
- Pack Instincts
- Spider Walk
- Wings
- Supernatural Sense
- Beast Change
- Demonic Co-Pilot
- Gaseous Form
- Mimic Form
- Speed
- Strength
- Toughness
- Recovery
- Physical Immunity
Some I can guess (Claws, Thoughness), most I have no idea... (Aquatic? Fly?)
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There's no simulation of bonuses (beyond what an Armor or a Weapon rating amounts to). Instead, you simulate the end effect: the effective rating of the rolled skill result. Because spells determine what the effect is, and then make it happen, rather than saying "I have an ability rating of Great, now let's roll to see what the level of the effect is".
So if you want to, say, simulate Inhuman Strength for lifting a heavy object (+2 to Might), really what you're looking to simulate is, say, a Fantastic (+6) result on a Might roll: i.e., spell power of 6.
Hmm, I need much more System Mastery....
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Iago
Okay that works, its just very different from any system Ive ever used before. thank you for taking the time to walk me through it.
Korwin
Take a look at this thread http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16887.0.html
{found it when my fiance insisted that i send her a link to every thread on this topic on the boards] and LCDarkwood's response. I think between that precedent and Iagos block method above we can do the rest of the math ourselves. other then maybe healing stuff...
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How much shifts would those powers be worth?
You're, again, looking at a powers list, not a list of effects. How much does each effect amount to in terms of the *result* it produces? That's the number of shifts. Lots of this stuff falls under the logic of simple actions.
Let's talk gaseous form: what are you using it for?
From one perspective, we're just talking Harry's escape potion -- something that allowed him to move a couple zones and through normally very difficult or impossible to pass barriers. In that case it's a movement effect with a certain number of shifts in value. (By its nature, maybe a little arbitrary. Four shifts of "sprint" that operate under special circumstances -- passing through small openings as if they're low or no barrier, because remember, magic makes impossible things possible -- might do the trick. Maybe a little more. Maybe a little less. What's your GM say?)
Are we talking about using it to make it harder to harm you, with weapons passing through you? Well, maybe that's a block or an armor effect.
And so on.
You want all of them, all together, well then you're probably talking about a much higher complexity spell.
You're talking about wanting to do it *a lot*, at the drop of a hat, without having to cast a spell each time? ... You're probably talking about spending some refresh on that bad boy, because it's a *power*.
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Maybe a little more. Maybe a little less. What's your GM say?
Since I fear I am the GM... At the Moment: "No clue."
Take a look at this thread {found it when my fiance insisted that i send her a link to every thread on this topic on the boards] and LCDarkwood's response. I think between that precedent and Iagos block method above we can do the rest of the math ourselves. other then maybe healing stuff...
Yeah, I need definitly a cheat-sheet.
For what effects are in the powers and how much are those effects worth in shifts.
I'll reread both threads tomorrow. Hope my head is clearer by then.
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How much shifts would those powers be worth?
As a rule of thumb, I would say a power costs 2 shifts per refresh cost. So, Aquatic 2 shifts, Hulking Size 4 shifts, Physical Immunity 16 shifts. Also, your Thaumaturgical shapeshifting seems to be trying to duplicate the Modular Abilities power (which has a 2 refresh surcharge) to I would also start with a base 4 shift complexity and then add the cost of the other stuff onto that.
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As a rule of thumb, I would say a power costs 2 shifts per refresh cost. So, Aquatic 2 shifts, Hulking Size 4 shifts, Physical Immunity 16 shifts. Also, your Thaumaturgical shapeshifting seems to be trying to duplicate the Modular Abilities power (which has a 2 refresh surcharge) to I would also start with a base 4 shift complexity and then add the cost of the other stuff onto that.
hmmm... in addition that you have to "kill" the person you want to transform, I like that kind of ruling it's easy to remember and could be done on the fly at the gaming table without much discussion.
and for a real regular (combat) shapeshifting wizard - should be bought with refresh. mine just wants to cheat on the public transport system by flying over the city as a hawk or falcon.
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As a rule of thumb, I would say a power costs 2 shifts per refresh cost. So, Aquatic 2 shifts, Hulking Size 4 shifts, Physical Immunity 16 shifts. Also, your Thaumaturgical shapeshifting seems to be trying to duplicate the Modular Abilities power (which has a 2 refresh surcharge) to I would also start with a base 4 shift complexity and then add the cost of the other stuff onto that.
I'll propose an Transformation-System based on Refresh (because I find it simpler and faster).
As basis I'll take the 2 shifts per refresh cost from biff_dyskolos.
When you (Self-)Transform into another thing you loose all your Powers and Stunts.
Unless you buy them back into the Ritual.
The basic difficulty for transforming is based on the True Shapeshift Power (-4 Refresh = 8 Shifts)
(Reason, while one Ritual can only change you into one form, you can have multiple Rituals. Thats True Shapeshift.)
Since you may want to end the spell before sunrise, we add another shift.
So the basic Self-Transforming spell is an Complexity Ritual 9.
So lets say our Wizards want to transform into an Wolf. With the Lvl. 9 Ritual he can take the form off an Wolf, but he is unfamiliar with the body.
He incorporates another Power into the Ritual: Beast Change for the Skill Shuffle (Demonic Co-Pilot would work too?).
Thats another Refresh (Total of 5) or 2 Shifts of Power. = Complexity of 11
After an Encounter with an Hellhound our Wizards want to change into one.
A Hellhound is an -7 Refresh creature with the -4 from True Shapechange that would be -11. To much for our Submerged Wizard (10 Refresh Total, max. -9 Refresh)
He researches further and cuts the Pack Instinct out and the Stunt Unflappable (Presence), that would bring the Refresh to -9, but then he realises he needs still the Beast Change Power...
He cuts the other Stunt since he overlaps a little with Echoes of the Beast.
Complexity of the Ritual (9*2)+1 = 19
Later in the Campaign after the Wizard got 7 new Refreshes he bought True ShapeChange (-4) and the Modular Abilities (-3).
So he can Shapechange into an Wolf on the fly (with all his Powers intact), but anything more complicated (like an bird) he needs still to cast an Ritual.
He could change into an Bird with allmost all his Powers intact with an Ritual.
Example:
-3 Evocation
-3 Thaumaturgy
-1 Wizards Sight
-2 Refinement
-1 Diminuitive Size
-1 Wings
-1 Beast Change
-4 True Shapechange
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-16
He could'nt use his True Shapechange, because this is the Ritual Version. He would need to end the spell first.
The Complexity of the Ritual would be (16*2)+1 = 33
With two more Refresh spent on Modular Abilities he wouldn't need the Ritual (And it would be much faster).
IMHO with this you could play an Junior Wizards who grows into an Powerfull Shapechanger.
It's flexible, but you are at least 4 Refresh points behind the Specialist.
I like it so far... Opinions?
You could allow the Wizard to go over his refresh, with the temporary Power rule on page 92 YS.
Not shure about that...
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Not bad, not bad at all. I think that gives a reasonable idea of how to do it.
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I really like that optional system. It keeps the Wizard bound by refresh limits but allows them to have a historically common focus. Huzzah!
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Okay, I think I see what's going wrong here.
In most systems, self-buffs are discrete from the things you actually do with them. What Fred's trying to tell us is that in DFRPG, you don't use magic to do something so that you can do something..
The magic is used to achieve the END RESULT. What you're trying to do in the first place.
In D&D or White Wolf's Storyteller system, you use a spell to give yourself a modifier (which stacks with other modifiers) on a roll that's already balanced for a particular circumstance.
Here in Fate land, we don't roll like that. Remember, we generally eschew modifiers anyway; it's either part of the character (character aspect or power), or it's part of the story (scene aspect) or we just don't care.
To that end, when you apply magic, you're applying it not to get an intermediary benefit which might help you with another skill roll..
... you're just trying to do the thing you really want, and your success in the magic DIRECTLY TRANSLATES to success in the final objective.
The way I'd approach most of these things is go ahead and use normal thaumaturgy, including the casting time requirements, and just treat the prep time as quasi-flashback or reference to something they spent time doing earlier, within reason.
If the effects are relevant over multiple exchanges, they only get to burn their consequences in the first exchange (but they don't have to use all of the shifts from those consequences then), but they roll as normal each exchange.
(Author's note: These are the ravings of someone who hasn't seen the PDF in well over a week, and is currently enjoying percocet and chocolate pudding)
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I have to admit, sometimes it is not easy to see the FATE solution of such things. the DFRPG is my first FATE game (have played a lot of d20 games, SR in all 4 editions and DnD in all 4 editions (though do not really like the 4th), and old WoD, especially mage).
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(Demonic Co-Pilot would work too?).
Thats another Refresh (Total of 5) or 2 Shifts of Power. = Complexity of 11
In the context of shapeshifting Thaumaturgy, I would say that Demonic Co-Pilot is right out of the question.
1) there are already Thaumaturgy rules for containing, summoning and binding. Your system would just bypass them for the cost of a 2 shifts.
2) Demonic Co-Pilot requires you to have an aspect which can be compelled to represent the demon's agenda. Changing your aspects is outside the scope of Thaumaturgy.
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In the context of shapeshifting Thaumaturgy, I would say that Demonic Co-Pilot is right out of the question.
Mechanical I'm not seeing how Demonic Co-Pilot helps you master your new body, anyway.
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Mechanical I'm not seeing how Demonic Co-Pilot helps you master your new body, anyway.
Mechanically, it stops people from being able to use assessment actions to 'discover' that you have no idea how to use the body you have...
If you want one as part of ritual magic, summon one and let it posess you...
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So, I have a more focused thematic question. To make it all make sense, I'll give a quick rundown of the character, Ted Richardson, who was at one time, one of the few Hedge Wizards working for the Venatori Umbrorum. A former Apprentice Wizard of the White Council, he enlisted in the U.S. Army in WWII before he could test for membership in the council (a convenient excuse - he never liked that wizards were more concerned with their own well-being than that of mortals, the perpetual food of the supernatural world). Following service in WWII with the elite Devil's Brigade and, later, service in Korea with the 8th Army Rangers, Ted had to leave the service because his still-strong magical power was beginning to make it impossible to be around 1950's army technology.
Ted took back up his magical study, though his 15 years or so away from complex magic made gaining a full scope of thaumaturgy impossible. So he instead developed as a Hedge Wizard (not a lawbreaking sorcerer) with strong evocation skills and a rituals: biomancy specialization. As part of his story, Ted was blacklisted after hunted down and killed a dozen ghouls that were preying on people in the Tenderloin district of San Francisco. The rest of the clan declared a vendetta against Ted, and he's been forced into a sort of witness protection program by the Venatori.
Okay, long question, I know, but I've had this idea that the main way Ted has been able to stay alive, but still working for the Venatori, is by using the biomancy to mimic the forms of other people. Not as a disguise for spying purposes, at least not normally, but because he has to live under an assumed identity. Would the biomancy specialization work for this, or should I just throw down and buy the "Mimic Form? I mean, he's really not a combat shapeshifter, and a lot of the talk on this thread has been centered around that aspect of shapeshifting.
Given that I've only had the pdfs for a week (they're awesome) and I've never played pen-and-paper rpgs, I'm trying to take this all in as best I can. The threads on this forum are excellent, and everyone seems to be so helpful, I felt like this was the time to go from stalker to poster. I'd appreciate any help folks can give.
Regards,
Kev
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How often does he (and can he) switch identities? And does it provide him any advantages other than looking different?
If it's once a year or less, and no real advantages, then I'd rule a specialty in Biomancy Complexity is more than enough. It's a big ritual to do it, but he only needs to do it every so often.
If he can do it at the drop of a hat, with 5 minutes of prep-time then he needs Mimic Form.
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Yeah, it's more like the 5 minutes situation. He can put on his assumed identity like you or I might put on a suit before work, and it would take him about as long. Okay, "mimic form" it is. And, strictly speaking, I like the idea of him being a strong evocation spellslinger with almost no Thaumaturgy skills; it makes him vulnerable. God characters are no fun.
Thanks for the response, Deadmanwalking.
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No problem, I'm happy to help. :)
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Okay, long question, I know, but I've had this idea that the main way Ted has been able to stay alive, but still working for the Venatori, is by using the biomancy to mimic the forms of other people. Not as a disguise for spying purposes, at least not normally, but because he has to live under an assumed identity. Would the biomancy specialization work for this, or should I just throw down and buy the "Mimic Form? I mean, he's really not a combat shapeshifter, and a lot of the talk on this thread has been centered around that aspect of shapeshifting.
If you want a disguise, then Illusions are an option as an alternate way to disguise.
You could take instead of Ritual a reflavored Glamour (into Illusion Spezialist).
(I imagine Molly with this...)
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Expanded Version of Fleshmask would also fit.
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Okay, long question, I know, but I've had this idea that the main way Ted has been able to stay alive, but still working for the Venatori, is by using the biomancy to mimic the forms of other people. Not as a disguise for spying purposes, at least not normally, but because he has to live under an assumed identity. Would the biomancy specialization work for this, or should I just throw down and buy the "Mimic Form? I mean, he's really not a combat shapeshifter, and a lot of the talk on this thread has been centered around that aspect of shapeshifting.
If this guy's shapeshifting in not a tactical thing and more of a plot device thing then maybe you don't even need a power. You could just make a declaration, maybe spend a FATE point, at the beginning of each session describing your new identity. What ever ritual you perform to make the change only happens between session. If your cover gets blow during a session then your only option is to run.
This makes your shapeshifting more of a plot device than a power.
EDIT: I neglected to say that they would have to take an aspect for this "ritual". I was thinking it but I didn't say it.
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If this guy's shapeshifting in not a tactical thing and more of a plot device thing then maybe you don't even need a power. You could just make a declaration, maybe spend a FATE point, at the beginning of each session describing your new identity. What ever ritual you perform to make the change only happens between session. If your cover gets blow during a session then your only option is to run.
This makes your shapeshifting more of a plot device than a power.
I disagree, and stand by the distinction I made previously (if there's prep-time and materials required, it's a ritual, if you can do it in 5 minutes, it's a power).
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I disagree, and stand by the distinction I made previously (if there's prep-time and materials required, it's a ritual, if you can do it in 5 minutes, it's a power).
If the "ritual" can only be performed between sessions then does the prep and casting times would not be an issue, right?
My reasoning was that it would be somewhat similar to enchanted items. There is some kind of ritual used to recharge them between sessions but we don't really care what it is because the only important thing is that you only start each session with x number of uses of each item/potion slot.
If the only benefit of this shape shifting ritual is that they start each session with a new identity then the ritual isn't all that important.
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I disagree, and stand by the distinction I made previously (if there's prep-time and materials required, it's a ritual, if you can do it in 5 minutes, it's a power).
And iether way it can be one. both niether, or something wierder ic. the names of the powers on your sheat do not need to reflect what you think you do ic.
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If the "ritual" can only be performed between sessions then does the prep and casting times would not be an issue, right?
My reasoning was that it would be somewhat similar to enchanted items. There is some kind of ritual used to recharge them between sessions but we don't really care what it is because the only important thing is that you only start each session with x number of uses of each item/potion slot.
If the only benefit of this shape shifting ritual is that they start each session with a new identity then the ritual isn't all that important.
Sure. You could even build it that way if you wanted, but he specifically said he wanted the character to be able to do it "as easily as changing clothes." That right there is a power.
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Or an high Lore + Foci...
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Or an high Lore + Foci...
Nah, even then we're talking around 15 minutes for the ritual, not the 5 he was talking about, but that does come closest.
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To be fair. there are no officially listed times for rituals. with a permissive st, and an insanely high effective lore you could pull of combat speed rituals. im actually toying with a refinment varient that simulates empowered magic in this way. for example the merlins mastery of wards.