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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Carnifex:Pacifex on June 21, 2013, 07:20:08 PM
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So, im still touching up on my short story (Uuzarus) and as I go through, I begin to question my method.
In all of my writing, in all of my stories, I always write in first-person from the perspective of the protagonist. It comes naturally to me and writing in 3rd person has always felt awkard as it oozed out my brian.
What I did for my short story, is swap whose perspective we view the story from in each chapter. ( it goes from Char. A to Char B then Char A then Char. B every other chapter)
As I read through it I find that I like how the "language"/"voice" of the writing contrasts eachother from the two viewpoints (one view from an ancient entity who wants to be left alone, while the other view is from a bounty hunter desperate for his next meal), But I am concerned how other writers would feel about it.
have any of you read stories that have done something similar? and did you find it irritating, or enhancing?
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Now this only my personal opinion, but I do not like books with more than one POV if its first person.
Also, even with third person, I enjoy either one POV or a few, 3-4 generally feels good to me.
My issue with two POVs is if I end up liking one more than the other, I end up dreading the start of a new chapter when I have to switch from the character I like more and it can lead to me putting the book down at chapter breaks more often.
Now if you can do both charcters and keep both equally interesting it could work, and just because its not my cup of tea doesn't mean others wouldn't enjoy it.
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Now this only my personal opinion, but I do not like books with more than one POV if its first person.
Also, even with third person, I enjoy either one POV or a few, 3-4 generally feels good to me.
My issue with two POVs is if I end up liking one more than the other, I end up dreading the start of a new chapter when I have to switch from the character I like more and it can lead to me putting the book down at chapter breaks more often.
Now if you can do both charcters and keep both equally interesting it could work, and just because its not my cup of tea doesn't mean others wouldn't enjoy it.
Ah, thank you for the feedback and for your reasoning, its understandable. Being a short story though, do you think that it would be less of an issue?
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I’m not much of a writer --though I am trying to remedy that of late-- but being someone with a strong background in the visual arts I would say don’t bother asking such a question as to whether a style is good or bad. It is much better to develop the style you want to work with rather then feel you need to conform to what others want or think is good. Imagine if someone came up to Picasso and said, “Interesting, but I think you should paint in the Bob Ross method, it is more traditional,” and he stopped cubism to grow a fro and beard and started painting with a brush one normally uses to slather paint onto a picket fence.
It might not be everyone’s cup-of-tea, but it will be your distinct voice. And if you do it skillfully, people will enjoy it even if it is not the kind of thing they usually go for. Case in point, like Galvatron, I too like books with a smaller number of POVs, but I thoroughly enjoyed a book where the author wrote from 5 or 6 1st person points of view. The author made the experience fun and engaging and it more then made up for the fact that it wasn’t something I usually enjoy reading.
In short, write what you want to write. And if you do it well, people will read.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
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I’m not much of a writer --though I am trying to remedy that of late-- but being someone with a strong background in the visual arts I would say don’t bother asking such a question as to whether a style is good or bad. It is much better to develop the style you want to work with rather then feel you need to conform to what others want or think is good. Imagine if someone came up to Picasso and said, “Interesting, but I think you should paint in the Bob Ross method, it is more traditional,” and he stopped cubism to grow a fro and beard and started painting with a brush one normally uses to slather paint onto a picket fence.
It might not be everyone’s cup-of-tea, but it will be your distinct voice. And if you do it skillfully, people will enjoy it even if it is not the kind of thing they usually go for. Case in point, like Galvatron, I too like books with a smaller number of POVs, but I thoroughly enjoyed a book where the author wrote from 5 or 6 1st person points of view. The author made the experience fun and engaging and it more then made up for the fact that it wasn’t something I usually enjoy reading.
In short, write what you want to write. And if you do it well, people will read.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Many thanks for the feedback, and that thing with the "fro and beard" was clever ^_^
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I would advise against POV shifting, especially in a short story. Its hard enough to connect with a character, when you are stuck with such a small canvas the problem compounds. A novel on the other hand is much better for multiple POV's however I have to warn you that most people prefer to have one 'main' character. You can get away with multiple points of views or (POV) but you should be very careful.
That said don't listen to me, write it out and then show it to people. The audience will let you know. And the first members of your audience are your beta readers.
The Deposed King
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I'm with Deposed King. For a short story, you're usually best to keep to a single POV character. There's just not enough space in a short story to give each POV the time and attention it deserves.
As others have said, for 1st-person, it can be hard on a reader if you switch POV characters, even briefly. With 1st-person, the goal is to get the reader really into the head of the character. Its intimacy is part of the appeal and strength of the style.
If you find yourself wanting to write from other POVs, but still keep a strong level of intimacy, I'd suggest experimenting with 3rd-person limited, and starting with either two equal POVs, or one primary POV and maybe two minor ones, kept for scenes where the primary POV isn't present but there's still something you want the reader to see.
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Im with LeeringCorpse on this one, it may not be a standard method, but anythign can be good of you do it right, and the preferences of any sampling of your audience (here or elsewhere) shouldnt matter too much. Write what interests you, the rest will fall in.
If you are looking for an example of something similar, check out the Kane Chronicles by Rick Riordan (author of the Percy Jackson series). Its his egyptian mythology series, and is a 1st POV account that switches between two siblings. It's written as if it were an audio recording that the characters mailed to an author to be published to "get their story out" and whatnot, so it takes it a step further than most in that you occasionally get the Narrator responding to something the other sibling is saying "off-screen"
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Im with LeeringCorpse on this one, it may not be a standard method, but anythign can be good of you do it right, and the preferences of any sampling of your audience (here or elsewhere) shouldnt matter too much. Write what interests you, the rest will fall in.
If you are looking for an example of something similar, check out the Kane Chronicles by Rick Riordan (author of the Percy Jackson series). Its his egyptian mythology series, and is a 1st POV account that switches between two siblings. It's written as if it were an audio recording that the characters mailed to an author to be published to "get their story out" and whatnot, so it takes it a step further than most in that you occasionally get the Narrator responding to something the other sibling is saying "off-screen"
If its the only thing you can write go for it and don't be discouraged. But if you can write something without the POV switching 'do it'.
Its not that you can't make POV switching work its just that, much like a land war in asia, it is listed as one of the classic blunders for a reason. Not many can invade asia and come out a head and for those that fail they tend to be spectacular.
A paragraph of two in third person with the bad guy at some particularly critical planning juncture might work. but with a short story your canvas has to be focused or, at least my readers, tend to bail. Now I did succeed in a fair amount of POV shifting in my 3rd book. About 2/3rds of it was carried by the secondary characters. But it was a risk, but a logical one, a natural progression in the story and at the same time built on the backs of characters the reader had come to experiences over the course of the previous 2 books and short novella.
If you're heart is set on it, go for it man. You could be the first Tolkien. And hey if at first you don't succeed always try try again. Just realize you've chosen the uphill battle on this one and expect some early failures and critisism. If it was me and I was able to take the good bits to hear I bet I could get a POV switching short story to work. I wont try it because it wouldn't be cost effective time wise for me. However different strokes for different folks.
don't let anyone discourage you, not even yourself and remember to always follow the dream,
The Deposed King
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What he said.
The other thing to consider is that many readers are becoming more savvy and aware of red flags regarding an author's skill. Publishers and agents look for these when deciding what submissions to accept, and I feel readers are starting to watch for them too. Too much POV-hopping is one of these red flags, and regardless of how good an author actually is, if readers, publishers or agents see too many of them, they may pass on the story.
Like Deposed King said, this is just something to be aware of. Go for it if you really want, but be aware that you may have to work that much harder to pull it off.
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Too much POV-hopping is one of these red flags...
How so? As a novice I'm wondering what this and other red flags say about an author, and why.
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Basically there are certain plot elements and writing techniques that have become so over-used that they're regarded as signs that a writer either hasn't had the time to develop their own writing voice, or is too lazy to put real work into their writing. Since agents and publishers have such a limited amount of time to decide whether or not a given submission is going to be a good investment of their resources, they have to make a judgement call based on what they see early on.
POV-hopping, if done messily, confuses the reader, and makes the writer look like they can't keep their story clear and concise. Even if you keep the distinction between characters clear, if you're just doing it for the sake of it, or there isn't a strong reason for it, it can seem that you're taking a quick way out of detailing the story properly from a single POV.
Depending on how busy a particular submissions editor is, they might allow a few such red flags to pass by, or they may have to bin your submission at the first sign if it's a particularly egregious case.
Examples of such red flags include:
- Prologues
- The first chapter beginning with the protagonist waking up
- Having the protagonist look in a mirror as an excuse to launch into a physical description
- Starting a book with a description of the weather
- Starting a book with description of the countryside or landscape
- Starting a book with the protagonist introducing themselves
There are countless writing blogs that offer more detailed advice on what to avoid when trying to get published.
It's important to note that using any of these doesn't mean your writing is bad. It just means that you're falling in line with the vast majority of aspiring writers out there who haven't put real effort into their writing. No matter how good you are, allowing a red flag to show up is a mark against you.
Yes, you might be able to make it work. But agents and publishers don't have the time to wait and see. There are some publishers who'll bin a submission as soon as they see the word "Prologue" on the first page. That's how busy and competitive the traditional publishing industry is. It's not that they're trying to make it difficult on writers; it's that they have to be sure their investment is going to pay off.
As readers become more aware of cliches, and as self-publishing continues to grow, I believe readers, too, will start to watch for these red flags, and while they'll never need to be as discerning as an agent or a publisher, they will become less inclined to pick up a book by a self-published author who puts out too many red flags.
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How so? As a novice I'm wondering what this and other red flags say about an author, and why.
I shall answer this in three separate ways.
1) POV shifting is not only off putting to a certain segment of readers (I gain this knowledge both from personal and professional opinions and the professional part has nothing to do with me).
It is considered kind of like a lack of focus that's common to new writers. A writer has all sides of the conflict in his head and wants to fully express them. This often causes clunky, attention splitting scenes that confuse the readers unless done well. There's other things, duplication of effort (things seen twice from two different views), or the readers don't want to invest in anyone but character A and get frustrated that they're forced to follow, B, C, and/or D.
Older writers can and have gotten away with it but if you look multiple POV's are less and less common since the 80's and 90's books. You still get the occasional game of thrones massively multi-POV out there which is why workmaker and I aren't exactly poopooing the idea. But even among the professional authors its becoming more and more of rare beast.
2) What does it say about the novice?: a few years back I was tooling around on the Baen Slush Magazine section. the one that helped feed the online magazin eric flint used to help produce. I uploaded a short story about some... well it really doesn't matter what it was about. Anyway I spiffed it up as best I could at the time and uploaded it for the group that's hanging out there to take a look at. I got basically got a 'come back when your worthy response'. Your story needs work, your character development isn't quite rich enough and what was up with this flicking the marble in his hand couldn't even follow it after three reads, on top of that if you don't care enough about your story to fix your grammar etc, why should an editor. Despite my initial hot headed reaction to this response to my little masterpiece, I managed to throttle myself down to a gruff but not surly, 'well that's your opinion.' To which the person responded 'I don't know why I bother sometimes'. A day or so later I was tooling around the site and what to my wondering eyes did appear? The person that had thrown her verbal hands in the air at my current lack of skill coupled by a defensive response was none other than the top editor of Baen, Toni Weispkoff. Suddenly I was no longer upset I was instead instantly grateful I hadn't gone with my initially desires (thin skinned writer) response and kicking myself that I hadn't recognized this person and solicited their advice further and uploaded a revised version as rapidly as I possibly could.
Now I'm not saying this applies to anyone here (that was part of my learning curve as a writer that I just happen to share because it was related to a red flag incident). What I am saying that with a red flag situation you'll tend to get a 'come back when you're worthy' response from the professional editor. Your job with a red flag is to sell your story past this speed bump, to have such awesome coolness that people are saying 'he broke the mold with this one' instead of 'what another tired old trope' and one that off puts most readers to boot, so here's another for the round file system (click).
Alternately in the world of direct publishing, instead of editor rejection you get the old vote with their feet response.
When I first started writing I was told to fight the urge to POV shift with all the strength in my body. Now in part that was because my first few stories had this component and I clearly wasn't able to do my story justice when I was doing it. Maybe someone else is much better at it. I know I'm not only head and shoulders better than my younger self at different POV's, I've climbed a whole dang hill. Just because I wasn't able to do it justice early on doesn't mean you shouldn't try it out. I'm just saying its a common pitfall for new authors for a reason. Almost everyone who tries it falls into the pit, just be warned and hone your craft young padawan.
The Deposed King
P.S. - I think wordmaker may have said this better than me but it sure seemed like a waste to just toss 20 minutes worth of work.
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I would advise against POV shifting, especially in a short story. Its hard enough to connect with a character, when you are stuck with such a small canvas the problem compounds. A novel on the other hand is much better for multiple POV's however I have to warn you that most people prefer to have one 'main' character. You can get away with multiple points of views or (POV) but you should be very careful.
That said don't listen to me, write it out and then show it to people. The audience will let you know. And the first members of your audience are your beta readers.
The Deposed King
True, Im hgetting my beta readers on it now that ive touched it up. Like you said, who knows. Either way, it was kinda fun trying a bit of a different style. Though I don't think I would shift POV's for a full length novel
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I'm with Deposed King. For a short story, you're usually best to keep to a single POV character. There's just not enough space in a short story to give each POV the time and attention it deserves.
As others have said, for 1st-person, it can be hard on a reader if you switch POV characters, even briefly. With 1st-person, the goal is to get the reader really into the head of the character. Its intimacy is part of the appeal and strength of the style.
If you find yourself wanting to write from other POVs, but still keep a strong level of intimacy, I'd suggest experimenting with 3rd-person limited, and starting with either two equal POVs, or one primary POV and maybe two minor ones, kept for scenes where the primary POV isn't present but there's still something you want the reader to see.
true true. When I read through it it does lack that intimacy.
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Unexpectedly, I discovered that the new Iron Druid novel released today switches 1st person POV's for certain chapters.
While Im not against the idea of switching the POV's in a first person story, the general objection people are having about being able to do it well in a Short Story does make sense. To do it well you are in many ways doubling the amount of development you need to cram in there, and for a Short Story you are already fighting an uphill battle in the Concise storytelling arena, so it is going to be extra levels of challenging.
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Im loving this feedback and discussion, and that red-flag list had me scared until I saw I (thank God) avoided them.
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I guess I should look at writing blogs that discuss the dos and do nots. Thank you both, you have gone a long way in allowing me make connections with writing and what I do know with some fluency, visual arts.
Red flags seem to be “trite but true” options that a writer’s mind fist goes to. The dream scene, the prologue, those are the sort of things that occur first as they are simple and easily come to mind as a way to get content into the story. A novice writer will stop there, thinking that will be a good option for them. But a good writer would probably continue asking the question of “what is the best way to say what I want,” or, “how can I take the thought farther.”
I have to say I made the mistake of settling on one of the “trite but true” options. Okay, Okay, I had three red flags going on in my story, a Prolog, a dream sequence and two points-of-views. I know laugh all you want, I’m used to it.
What you two said to me made me tear my story down, and start building it back up, and right now, it is the stronger for it. I am still having two points of view however. I don’t think I can get around that, as it is a story of two people and what they do and sacrifice for each other, all under a back drop of civil war, duty, revenge and betrayal.
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Don't let anyone stop you or get you down leeringcorpse. If you love it when you write it, even if you have to revise it, other people are going to like also.
the Deposed King
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I couldn’t agree more D.K.
I’m just glad I asked that question. The responses let me see one of the mistakes I was making that led to some of those red flags. I was saying “Hey, this would work,” and going with that idea, but what I need to be saying is, “Hey, this might work, but what else can I do,” and weigh those ideas and go with the best one for the circumstances.
I have to say, after I did that I started back up from scratch and the page and a half I have just written reads better then any of the 15 pages I already did. That isn’t saying much, mind you, as I’m not exactly Wordsworth strolling through a shady glen here. Me trying to be eloquent is more like pulling steel needles through my cheeks.
LOL, but at least I can say I’m having fun trying to tell a story. ;D
Thanks all
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Does anyone have any opinions about switching 1st person POVs between completed works? ie short stories from different characters' perspectives that are all part of a cohesive story arc. Does anyone know of any works that pull this off, either as a series of short stories or novels?
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Off-hand the animorph novels I read as a kid did that, they came out each month (thanks to ghost writers) and each book (there were like 50 of them before the end) rotated between the POV of the 5-6 main characters, with the occasional special issue that would alternate each chapter. It worked well in that instance, but I think a big reason it was able to pull it off was that it had sooo many books in the series before the end, and they came out very often. This way you could cover the POV of the whole ensemble, and each would get several books. If you were talking about a classic trilogy that had a different 1st POV for each book, that would be a little harder to balance, and you probably wouldnt get a chance to return to the POV's.
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I'm thinking a little larger-scale than a trilogy, more like a serial. But I don't know if I can produce quickly enough to make it enjoyable. Maybe I should write a few and hoard them...
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One book a year is perfectly doable and appropriate for a series.
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One book a year is perfectly doable and appropriate for a series.
I would quibble with this. To my mind your statement would be true if:
1) you are working for a publisher
2) writing is a part time job
3) writing is just something you do for fun and to see if you are any good/can make some money
However the successful indie guys I've been watching. They all write a book every 3-4 months without fail. Go any longer than that and as an indie guy you start to lose the interest of your readers but more importantly sales fall off to nothing. My advice would be that if you want to see if you're any good write whatever. But at the point you're ready to go serious and writing is your full time job. Then its got to be 3 books minimum per year on your mainline series and the other one per year can be whatever.
That said you can cheat around this 3-4 books a year writing plan if you've got a backlist of books you've already written and just slowly intersperse them in amongst your new writing.
On the making a living off your writing front you could sacrifice readers continued interest if you're getting a couple sales per day off your backlist.
But that's just my 0.02c
Its all about life goals and choices.
The Deposed King
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This could be worth starting a separate thread for, but while I think you're right that it's all about your own personal goal and lifestyle choices, I don't agree that you have to put out a minimum of three books a year to be successful.
Yes, building up a back catalogue of titles is still the single most reliable way to become a midlist author. However, don't assume that just because you can put out three or four titles a year means you're ready to, or that it means you're ready to take the plunge and depend on writing as your primary income.
You know what? This is an important topic to discuss, so I think I will go start a new thread (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,38578.msg1894198.html#msg1894198) for it. Not a lot of online sources take the time to discuss the pros and cons of various release schedules.
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This could be worth starting a separate thread for, but while I think you're right that it's all about your own personal goal and lifestyle choices, I don't agree that you have to put out a minimum of three books a year to be successful.
Yes, building up a back catalogue of titles is still the single most reliable way to become a midlist author. However, don't assume that just because you can put out three or four titles a year means you're ready to, or that it means you're ready to take the plunge and depend on writing as your primary income.
You know what? This is an important topic to discuss, so I think I will go start a new thread for it. Not a lot of online sources take the time to discuss the pros and cons of various release schedules.
Should probably put a link to the new thread in there.
The Deposed King
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Done :)
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I would quibble with this. To my mind your statement would be true if:
1) you are working for a publisher
2) writing is a part time job
3) writing is just something you do for fun and to see if you are any good/can make some money
However the successful indie guys I've been watching. They all write a book every 3-4 months without fail. Go any longer than that and as an indie guy you start to lose the interest of your readers but more importantly sales fall off to nothing. My advice would be that if you want to see if you're any good write whatever. But at the point you're ready to go serious and writing is your full time job. Then its got to be 3 books minimum per year on your mainline series and the other one per year can be whatever.
That said you can cheat around this 3-4 books a year writing plan if you've got a backlist of books you've already written and just slowly intersperse them in amongst your new writing.
On the making a living off your writing front you could sacrifice readers continued interest if you're getting a couple sales per day off your backlist.
But that's just my 0.02c
Its all about life goals and choices.
The Deposed King
I have no delusions - I'm definitely a casual/hobby writer. I'm sure that anything I write will be read by, tops, like 3 people at least one of whom is my husband. That being said, I guess then that the frequency of completing works is not especially important. I think I might fiddle around with first person, maybe limited third person switching narrators between completed works as appropriate.
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My fantasy book was written all 3rd person. I only had one chapter with the non-MC when she was almost killed and very much unconscious.
My Spineward Sectors series on the other hand is 1st person for the MC and 3rd person for all my secondary characters.
On the writing front. It takes a few books out there to be able to support yourself as an indie writer. So transitioning from the day job could be tough. Regardless don't be afraid, if you love writing then just keep on keeping on. However if the idea of going full time is kicking around in the back of your head, keep the advise you hear in mind.
On POV's its very important (to my mind) to make sure to keep your Main Character in the spot light. too much side shifting around to secondary characters can really queer the deal. Not that you can't do it. (I did it in my 3rd book Admiral's Tribulation after the MC was almost dead and very much unconsciou) Just that you have to be careful.
the Deposed King
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On that note, if I can ask, how many books did you have out before you made the move?
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On that note, if I can ask, how many books did you have out before you made the move?
I wrote book one and half of book two and then had to go to the states to work. Out of money. Finished book 2 in the states and launched it while working a full time job. And then had enough cash built up after settling my cc debt to make it a few months over here before I ran out again but I couldn't stay away from the family and the wife is in the middle of nursing school.
I immediately started pounding away on book 3 which grew into 3 and 4 after the split.
So I went out on a wing and a prayer after book 2. Pretty sure I'll make it the rest of the year on what I've written so far and got in the pipeline already money wise but after that I've got to keep producing books like what I have so far. If I lay a bunch of stink bombs I'll be back to spending half the year in the states, at least.
I came back here on february and here's hoping I'll be successful enough to make it until next feb!
The Deposed King
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I came back here on february and here's hoping I'll be successful enough to make it until next feb!
Good luck. And congratulations again on doing so well with these books.
Have you noticed any difference in sales with new art work? Or is it hard to tell with the natural fluctuations sales tend to move in?
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Good luck. And congratulations again on doing so well with these books.
Have you noticed any difference in sales with new art work? Or is it hard to tell with the natural fluctuations sales tend to move in?
What I think of as residual sales has definitely picked up. Cheesy covers and a laughable name made a lot of people take a pass. People commented saying I kept seeing this thing and shook my head but finally ran out of anything to read. Wow these things are actually good! Don't mind the covers or cheesy name, etc.
Up tick in buy through rate has been shown in the increase in sales. I'm not sure how much. I'd say maybe 50% on the first two books... ? but its hard to say. The rest not so much. The covers seem to make the difference to the series entry points. The first, second and prequel. After that either you're hooked and buying it anyway or you're not and the cover's not enough to change your mind.
But yeah exact numbers are hard to tell because of the fluctuation. You have a quick rise. Then plataue but after that its all a slow decline.
The Deposed King
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Ah, thank you for the feedback and for your reasoning, its understandable. Being a short story though, do you think that it would be less of an issue?
Multiple perspectives in a short story is already frowned upon. I'd be really careful about two first person perspectives. I just got totally kicked out of a pretty well done series by having scenes from a second first person point of view. It bothered me.
On the other hand, the way Brent Weeks Handled it in the Book after The Black Prism didn't(although he used the perspective to denote a mental shift in the characters, which is surprisingly effective.