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The Dresden Files => DF Books => Topic started by: Romulan Cmdr on July 10, 2017, 06:57:24 PM

Title: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Romulan Cmdr on July 10, 2017, 06:57:24 PM
So... I saw this in another group and wanted to put it out here.  Since Kemmler's students have the ability to body switch.  What if Kemmler did that to Justin Du Moore? 
Kemmler masqueraded Justin including taking in Harry -etc.
It would explain why he kept Bob around as well as clarifying why he'd be into the dark magic.

After all there seem to be 2 versions of Justin that people saw. The warden that took down Kemmler and fulfilled his duties  AND the jerk who appeared to have gone warlock before getting killed and having a secret apprentice that he never told the 7 laws to.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 10, 2017, 07:20:29 PM
So... I saw this in another group and wanted to put it out here.  Since Kemmler's students have the ability to body switch.  What if Kemmler did that to Justin Du Moore? 
Kemmler masqueraded Justin including taking in Harry -etc.
It would explain why he kept Bob around as well as clarifying why he'd be into the dark magic.

After all there seem to be 2 versions of Justin that people saw. The warden that took down Kemmler and fulfilled his duties  AND the jerk who appeared to have gone warlock before getting killed and having a secret apprentice that he never told the 7 laws to.
I doubt it for one reason: Somewhere between Bob being "lost" when Kemmler was taken down and DB when Harry first awakened the remnant.  In that scene in DB Bob said he was compelled to Forget a bunch of his time with Kemmler, and to suppress the rest.  Since it took his Owners order to compel that sort of mutilation later on, I expect it took the same thing the first time.  The only explanation for that I can think of is that Necrobob didnt like Justin any more than he did Harry, and Justin was forced to expel as much of that personality as he could, only unlike Harry he was concerned with the Knowledge he might gain from Kemmler so he didnt fully commit. 

Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Firnatine34 on July 11, 2017, 12:59:47 AM
It's my working theory. The thing with Bob doesn't trip me up. Kemmler could have compelled Bob to forget before the attack. A blanket "Should you ever fall into someone else hands." kind of deal. It doesn't even approach the foil hat level ideas that are stock and trade around here.

Kemmler is Justin, and Cowl. Elaine is Kumori, of course.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on July 11, 2017, 02:11:58 PM
I realize what you are saying, but I have to say that if we see Justin again, and it's not in a memory or something like that, I'll be disappointed.

Jim has made it pretty clear that Justin is gone.  Granted that may mean his spirit/soul, but if his body is being used by someone else, It'll be too similar to the CT/Luccio thing, and it's a "been there, done that" kind of thing.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on July 11, 2017, 02:39:39 PM
I realize what you are saying, but I have to say that if we see Justin again, and it's not in a memory or something like that, I'll be disappointed.

Jim has made it pretty clear that Justin is gone.  Granted that may mean his spirit/soul, but if his body is being used by someone else, It'll be too similar to the CT/Luccio thing, and it's a "been there, done that" kind of thing.
My pet theory is if Kemmler really did leave the info in Bob about how to summon your alternate reality versions, Didn't kemmler 'die' six times? The theory the 7th version Is equal to or greater than the summoner. I think we got alternate reality Kemmler alive after Kemmler made the same mistake as MM Harry.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Romulan Cmdr on July 11, 2017, 03:09:28 PM
Well I think Justin is dead and gone. His spirit -etc was in Kemmler's body when the death blow occured.
But, I think that Cowl is some other host body that Kemmler hopped into.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Firnatine34 on July 11, 2017, 05:50:28 PM
Yeah, I mean...if Jim lied, he'd be like the first writer in history to lie for the sake of not spoiling the story. The very first. Ever.

Also Jim is famously quoted as saying Justin is dead, before spelling out D-E-D. Maybe he's just being funny, but that's not how you spell dead.

He's also spent a lot of time showing us that dead is a spectrum.

It blows my mind the way people will dissect every little thing down to microscopic parts, and so few are willing to consider that maybe he's just lying to preserve the reveal.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on July 11, 2017, 06:06:57 PM
Yeah, I mean...if Jim lied, he'd be like the first writer in history to lie for the sake of not spoiling the story. The very first. Ever.

Also Jim is famously quoted as saying Justin is dead, before spelling out D-E-D. Maybe he's just being funny, but that's not how you spell dead.

He's also spent a lot of time showing us that dead is a spectrum.

It blows my mind the way people will dissect every little thing down to microscopic parts, and so few are willing to consider that maybe he's just lying to preserve the reveal.


Have you watched the interview where Jim says that Justin is DED dead?
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Firnatine34 on July 13, 2017, 02:23:19 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jamescagney22 on July 13, 2017, 10:21:47 PM
I think Justin will only appear in Hell's Bell's where he is in... Hell. Makes more thematic sense and Simon Pietrovich is the more likely candidate as Cowl anyways.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: harry dresden on July 17, 2017, 06:26:29 PM
If Kemmler were Cowl why would he need Bob, The Word, or anything else to enact the Dark Hallow because, unless my memory is off, he invented the spell.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 17, 2017, 07:19:11 PM
If Kemmler were Cowl why would he need Bob, The Word, or anything else to enact the Dark Hallow because, unless my memory is off, he invented the spell.
That's an excellent point.  There are circumstantial answers, but none that I can think of with actual support.

Possibilities might be: Memory loss from Body-hopping? Or simple human fallibility and requiring his original research notes? Though the simplicity of the spell itself according to Harry might make that unlikely.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on July 17, 2017, 07:46:34 PM
This also puts the kibosh on any theory having Kemmler body jump, through other bodies to make up Cowl.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Romulan Cmdr on July 24, 2017, 08:11:36 PM
That's an excellent point.  There are circumstantial answers, but none that I can think of with actual support.

Possibilities might be: Memory loss from Body-hopping? Or simple human fallibility and requiring his original research notes? Though the simplicity of the spell itself according to Harry might make that unlikely.
good point. The suggestion of Simon being Cowl instead of being dead like people first thought is intriguing. I mean the rot could refer to all the damage Peabody was doing and its expanding effects.
And Harry hadnt met Simon so that could make sense.
Initally if I remember Cowl was more interested in stopping others and if in the process he got the power he could 'set things right' but that doesnt explain his summoning of the demon in white knight.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: wardenferry419 on July 25, 2017, 10:57:13 AM
I think Cowl took it personal with Harry's snooping. Harry tends to bring that out in people. Some people are born with the knack for ticking others off.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 25, 2017, 12:07:12 PM
good point. The suggestion of Simon being Cowl instead of being dead like people first thought is intriguing. I mean the rot could refer to all the damage Peabody was doing and its expanding effects.
And Harry hadnt met Simon so that could make sense.
Initally if I remember Cowl was more interested in stopping others and if in the process he got the power he could 'set things right' but that doesnt explain his summoning of the demon in white knight.
Initially he was interested in keeping the Erlking book from the others, but Im not convinced he actually didnt want the Power.  Especially if Bob is correct and only Cowl knew the whole truth of how it needed to go down.  He's the one that knew about Halloween (possibly), knew about Bob as a backup Word, etc.  If he was trying to stop it he could have Not clocked Harry and freed the Erlking, Not done a proper job on the city-wide hex, among other opportunities.   
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Aminar on July 25, 2017, 02:53:39 PM
Cowl being Kemmler makes no sense without lots of intervening factors. Kemmler somehow needs Bob to perform a ritual he invented? He says things like "I have nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler?" I buy that Cowl is Simon. That makes sense to me. It has good Drama. Kemmler is Dead. Justin may have been Kemmler, but I still don't buy it.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on July 25, 2017, 03:54:22 PM
Alterna-Kemmler wouldn't know the dark hallow necessarily though. :)
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 25, 2017, 05:16:35 PM
If we're opening the door to alternate universe versions meddling, I think Id rather an Ebeneezer AlernaCoy out to steal the the prime-dv's Blackstaff.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on July 25, 2017, 05:25:27 PM
If we're opening the door to alternate universe versions meddling, I think Id rather an Ebeneezer AlernaCoy out to steal the the prime-dv's Blackstaff.

I'll grant you that illusions can explain a lot, but the physical description isn't close to Eb.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 25, 2017, 06:46:17 PM
I'll grant you that illusions can explain a lot, but the physical description isn't close to Eb.
Shapeshifting mishap?  Cowl is described as barely sounding Human (which honestly now invokes a more Fomor Servator vibe now, for me).
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on July 25, 2017, 08:30:06 PM
Shapeshifting mishap?  Cowl is described as barely sounding Human (which honestly now invokes a more Fomor Servator vibe now, for me).
the tongue thing makes me think he's a changed red who refuses let go of his humanity, to explain the mortal magic. That's the only viable pure 'Simon' theory to me.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 25, 2017, 08:42:14 PM
the tongue thing makes me think he's a changed red who refuses let go of his humanity, to explain the mortal magic. That's the only viable pure 'Simon' theory to me.
Ooh, interesting idea.  Are you thinking he was changed to make him complicit prior to GP and he hid it until SK, or was he already complicit and was turned during or after he faked his death?
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on July 25, 2017, 10:42:00 PM
Ooh, interesting idea.  Are you thinking he was changed to make him complicit prior to GP and he hid it until SK, or was he already complicit and was turned during or after he faked his death?
They forced it on him to have a powerful new recruit who understood Council magic perhaps? Harry talks about how bad such a thing would be in DB on a warden, what about a WC member? Which would mean his vendetta against the corruption in the council includes and is probably driven by, whatever asshat betrayed him to the Red's. Even though it changed him not only physically, but as a person. I don't think he stopped being himself. As an older wizard his stubbornness of personality was greater than the demon they rebirthed him as.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Zaphodess on July 26, 2017, 09:42:19 AM
They forced it on him to have a powerful new recruit who understood Council magic perhaps? Harry talks about how bad such a thing would be in DB on a warden, what about a WC member? Which would mean his vendetta against the corruption in the council includes and is probably driven by, whatever asshat betrayed him to the Red's. Even though it changed him not only physically, but as a person. I don't think he stopped being himself. As an older wizard his stubbornness of personality was greater than the demon they rebirthed him as.
If that was true, would he help the Reds? He didn't necessarily want the Erlking book, he only wanted it destroyed. Which suggests to me that he knew the author, one Samuel Peabody.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 26, 2017, 12:11:15 PM
They forced it on him to have a powerful new recruit who understood Council magic perhaps? Harry talks about how bad such a thing would be in DB on a warden, what about a WC member? Which would mean his vendetta against the corruption in the council includes and is probably driven by, whatever asshat betrayed him to the Red's. Even though it changed him not only physically, but as a person. I don't think he stopped being himself. As an older wizard his stubbornness of personality was greater than the demon they rebirthed him as.
Hmmm...
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Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on July 26, 2017, 02:31:57 PM
Hmmm...
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How is he doing that?
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 26, 2017, 02:35:49 PM
How is he doing that?

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Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on July 26, 2017, 02:40:00 PM
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Well what can I say, I didn't think out my alternative theory too well.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 26, 2017, 02:53:35 PM
Well what can I say, I didn't think out my alternative theory too well.
Dont give up now, there's always a tinfoil hat Crack-theory reason for this sort of thing, we just have to dig deep enough! 
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on July 26, 2017, 07:02:04 PM
I like it, Jonas.

To give it further credence ...

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Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 26, 2017, 07:40:16 PM
I like it, Jonas.

To give it further credence ...

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Nah, "Lords of the Outer Night" was just the name for the upper tier vampires of the Red Court, the Red king and his immediate cadre. 
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As far as the Nemfection, that's the question: 
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Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on July 26, 2017, 08:13:00 PM
I go with the latter.  Already turned.

And wasn't some of what Genosa's first wife (I forget her name) in Blood Rites about the Lords of Outer Night while she was calling HWWB?
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 26, 2017, 08:53:32 PM
I go with the latter.  Already turned.

And wasn't some of what Genosa's first wife (I forget her name) in Blood Rites about the Lords of Outer Night while she was calling HWWB?
Nah, that was Lord of Slowest Terror, and by context sounds like HWWBh's Boss. 
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Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on July 27, 2017, 01:39:29 AM
Nah, that was Lord of Slowest Terror, and by context sounds like HWWBh's Boss. 
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Yea I always figure that as one of those original names for
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Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 27, 2017, 12:47:54 PM
Yea I always figure that as one of those original names for
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oooh, I like that
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on July 27, 2017, 06:36:54 PM
You know what that put me in a mind of ...

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Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on July 28, 2017, 03:08:25 AM
You know what that put me in a mind of ...

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I'm of the idea that would be kinda hard, cause
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Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on July 28, 2017, 12:33:45 PM
I'm of the idea that would be kinda hard, cause
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Elevated to that level he sounds closer to Zuvran  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurvanism) who, to put it in DV terms, might be the father of TWG and his evil brother Ahriman.  You might also be able to equate him with Ymir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir), the norse Giant that was killed to create the world. 
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on July 28, 2017, 03:23:50 PM
I'm of the idea that would be kinda hard, cause
(click to show/hide)

Still doesn't preclude Harry meeting Chronos.  Perhaps just an avatar of him, like Ferrofax?
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on July 28, 2017, 05:47:49 PM
Still doesn't preclude Harry meeting Chronos.  Perhaps just an avatar of him, like Ferrofax?
I'd like to see a clock obsessed man in this role, perhaps a maker of fine time pieces himself.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Romulan Cmdr on July 28, 2017, 08:35:07 PM
The Greek gods will be in the wrestling book.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on August 01, 2017, 05:31:48 PM
The Greek gods will be in the wrestling book.

Gotcha.  Still, I'd like to see that.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Romulan Cmdr on August 02, 2017, 02:59:12 PM
Gotcha.  Still, I'd like to see that.
Me too. I am looking forward to the Mirror universe, the Kaiju book and the Pro Wrestling book.
I think that Peace Talks is one of those important game changing factor books which is why it cant be rushed. Other lighter books like Skin Game, Proven Guility are faster to write because they dont have as much major storyline stuff occuring. I think that ll be the same case with Pro Wrestling and Kaiju. because if I am not wrong, after those 4 it ll be time for the Trilogy.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on August 02, 2017, 05:20:27 PM
Me too. I am looking forward to the Mirror universe, the Kaiju book and the Pro Wrestling book.
I think that Peace Talks is one of those important game changing factor books which is why it cant be rushed. Other lighter books like Skin Game, Proven Guility are faster to write because they dont have as much major storyline stuff occuring. I think that ll be the same case with Pro Wrestling and Kaiju. because if I am not wrong, after those 4 it ll be time for the Trilogy.
This...wow, that makes me laugh so hard. ;D

Based on the average Crack Theory around here, that one has more "Major Storyline Stuff" packed in per word than nearly any other book in the series.  I'd say Cold Days tops it, Grave Peril by pure lasting implication, maybe not Changes (oddly enough?), on the fence about Ghost Story...
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on August 02, 2017, 06:55:15 PM
This...wow, that makes me laugh so hard. ;D

Based on the average Crack Theory around here, that one has more "Major Storyline Stuff" packed in per word than nearly any other book in the series.  I'd say Cold Days tops it, Grave Peril by pure lasting implication, maybe not Changes (oddly enough?), on the fence about Ghost Story...

now, if you'd said Grave Peril, I'd agree wholeheartedly, but Proven Guilty?
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on August 03, 2017, 12:13:40 AM
now, if you'd said Grave Peril, I'd agree wholeheartedly, but Proven Guilty?
If I can find 10% of the resources I used to have on PG, you might have just inspired me to write something up, just fer you. :)
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on August 03, 2017, 01:19:36 PM
now, if you'd said Grave Peril, I'd agree wholeheartedly, but Proven Guilty?
Time Travel implications (actually on the page), winter AND summer machinations that still havent been explained, anonymous attacks, First hints of Nemesis, the mysterious Fixing of Little Chicago, Harry beating the Merlin at Politics, Harry personally pissing off the Merlin by beating him with politics, Charity actually /trusting/ Harry, all of Molly....

Hell, there is always some perennial thread asking "WTF was up with PG?"  Currently it's: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,49944.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,49944.0.html)
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on August 03, 2017, 06:14:12 PM
Oh, I know, Q, but it seems like we are still getting revelations about the Masquerade Party in GP.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Quantus on August 03, 2017, 07:32:17 PM
Oh, I know, Q, but it seems like we are still getting revelations about the Masquerade Party in GP.
Oh, agreed on that.  It still made my top three :)
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: wardenferry419 on August 04, 2017, 01:04:36 AM
I am still waiting for Kumori to unmask as Elaine and say I was in your home in GP; that is how I know about your wards in SK.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: jonas on August 04, 2017, 02:23:23 AM
I am still waiting for Kumori to unmask as Elaine and say I was in your home in GP; that is how I know about your wards in SK.
More simple, they learned from the same master, so when
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Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Rasins on August 04, 2017, 02:33:09 PM
It will really suck if Elaine is the one who brought down Simon's wards.  I'm still pulling for Simon to have pulled down the wards.
Title: Re: Cowl theory Dead Beat -onward spoilers
Post by: Romulan Cmdr on August 04, 2017, 03:56:02 PM
This...wow, that makes me laugh so hard. ;D

Based on the average Crack Theory around here, that one has more "Major Storyline Stuff" packed in per word than nearly any other book in the series.  I'd say Cold Days tops it, Grave Peril by pure lasting implication, maybe not Changes (oddly enough?), on the fence about Ghost Story...
Sure if you are wanting hints -etc.
But overall? Its about madness at a con, a trip into faerie worlds and then a white council meeting. While there are hints and stuff dropped, that is alot lighter than some major story world upsetting/heavier things such as defining what it means to be the White Knight, throw down with Erlking/ Wild Hunt, dealing with the potential destruction of the White Council (turn coat) vs figuring out who is trying to kill women close to a porn director (blood rites)

Cold Days overall is a heist story, there is alot less world shaking events in it then say summer knight which setup how the White Council works -proceedurals etc.

Does that make sense by what I mean of lighter to heavier?
Peace Talks is showing the supernatural big wigs all facing up, and has to have an event that both makes Mab sweat, and be something at such a level that seems justified as an event that causes Mab to sweat knowing as we do now, more of what Mab is.   In many ways similar to how Changes fundamentally changed things for Harry. He couldnt go back to his old life no matter what. -Car was flattened, apartment burned down,and a new building is there. -- no going back points.

Structurally, Ive a feeling this is heaviest structure-wise until the Trilogy.