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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: CottbusFiles on May 16, 2011, 01:36:01 PM
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It's me again
In my group i have to people using Evocation. In a fight against a Troll one of them used every turn to bind the troll with his spirit chains, making attacks and movement harder. The troll had really problems going against a block of strength 4 especially because the Meelecharacter put a "broken leg" on him and then the wizard used ice magic repeatedly, trying to freeze the other leg and eventually succeeded.
What can such a block actually do ? What can a Troll do against it ?
on a related note. When my player for 3 turns says "I'm using ice magic to freeze his leg" as an attack and does good damage but the troll doesn't really have to take a consequence, should i let him take it anyway because that's what the player intents? He could do it as a Maneuver but he wanted to inflict damage too.
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In the example given I would let the Troll use it's full supernatural strength modifier (+6) to break the chain of spirit.
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In the example given I would let the Troll use it's full supernatural strength modifier (+6) to break the chain of spirit.
To do so would be a use of the action. As Cott said, the wizard type was casting a new one every exchange, so it amounts to the same thing.
A Block just prevents something. Him doing an all around offensive block against the actions of another is quite possible. The troll can break the block somehow (with Might, as ways and means said), or just try to act without thinking about it. Provided the troll gets a 4 or better, the attack gets through. Give him a fate point, check his skill, and have at it.
No, I wouldn't allow a spell to manuever and attack in the same move. That is quite powerful. If he runs it as an attack and hurts the target enough to get a consequence, good for him. Otherwise, he picks one or the other.
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You get a defensive action against a grapple which is what a chain of spirit is, and given the strength modifier he would get out each turn.
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You get a defensive action against a grapple which is what a chain of spirit is, and given the strength modifier he would get out each turn.
Let's say my PC has a Minigun and a looooooot of ammo and makes a block "I shoot at his bunker position the whole time so that he is only safe in his bunker and can't get out or shoot at us"
It's the same thing "block against aggressive actions" (using the Guns skill) and it's no Grapple.
A Grapple is a Grapple when it's envoked with an aspect and used to inflict damage, everything else is just a block.
or at least that is how i understand it.
My player is essentialy giving up his round to neutralise the danger of an NPC. This is okay i guess but really strong when there is only one enemy.
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Well, you can adjudicate physical blocks as a grapple. But a chain of spirit could well be a mental block, in which case the troll's strength would be useless against it. And the troll being non-human, the Laws of Magic do not apply.
The biggest advantage of wizards is that they can adapt to their targets. Enemy is big and tough? Attack or block mentally vs their Discipline. Enemy is a speedster? Crush them with main force vs Might or Endurance. Enemy is smart and wily? Blast to bits with bolts of energy vs Athletics.
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Well, you can adjudicate physical blocks as a grapple. But a chain of spirit could well be a mental block, in which case the troll's strength would be useless against it. And the troll being non-human, the Laws of Magic do not apply.
The biggest advantage of wizards is that they can adapt to their targets. Enemy is big and tough? Attack or block mentally vs their Discipline. Enemy is a speedster? Crush them with main force vs Might or Endurance. Enemy is smart and wily? Blast to bits with bolts of energy vs Athletics.
This is super important to remember both as a GM and as a player. If your monster has a weakness, it can be exploited. If your character has a weakness, it can be exploited too.
The Laws protect against a lot (mentally attacking humans, etc) but they often don't apply to non-humans (what is considered non-human for this is up to debate both in and out of the game, especially in gray areas like WCVs).
In a mano e mano fight, a wizard will run out of juice before the troll if he's constantly blocking actions like that (although prolonging the spell can make this a bit moot). In a group vs single monster fight, this is bad for the monster. In a group vs group fight, this can be bad for the wizard as it eats up his actions.
Knowing the weaknesses and how to exploit them is important. Have your clever villains do this to the players if the players do this to monsters often. It's okay. It's good tactics.
On an aside, when I've GM'd games, I try to match my players tactical level (only occasionally upping or lowering them for flavor and variety). When I play, I play at a high level (I don't want my character to die), but expect the same from my GM (who wants my character to be challenged).
For instance, if the Wizard is reasonably well built for combat, he's probably good mentally (spellcasting skills do this) and in a physical fight (evocation allows you to essentially use mental skills in physical combat). How is he socially (although depending on his creativity and character, he may find a way to use spells to boost this)? How is his endurance (evocation is taxing)? If you push these buttons, things go in a different direction.
Now, on the original topic: The block can indeed block all offensive actions on the part of the troll. The troll can use Might to beat it completely (which if the spell is prolonged is the correct response), but if a new spell is cast every turn then the troll has to roll higher than the block with its attack in order to get through it. However, the wizard is also tied up the whole time (and thus can't do anything else).
With the broken leg aspect, remember that your group only gets one free tag. After that they are paying for it with FP. If it is compelled for effect, this means the troll gets a FP (that it can use to invoke aspects to help it break the block).
If the character it trying to freeze the troll's leg as an attack, the consequences taken should be in line with the attack (but the troll/GM gets to choose when to take the consequence and what consequence is taken). If the character wants to lay an aspect on the troll, that's fine. However, this must be done as a maneuver (and thus doesn't deal stress). Of course, it could also be a block (against movement so vs. Athletics).
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But still, the kind of attack i'm doing directly relates to the kind of consequence that is taken right ? Attacking someone with a sword will lead to "minor bleeding" or "my guts are hanging out" while an attack with fists and bare knuckles will lead to "black eye" or "concussion".
Can a player with his attack say "I attack his leg" and every round do the same so that eventually the enemy has to take a leg-related consequence or can i declare "The troll blocks your sword with his nose and takes the "hole in my face" consequence" ?
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But still, the kind of attack i'm doing directly relates to the kind of consequence that is taken right ? Attacking someone with a sword will lead to "minor bleeding" or "my guts are hanging out" while an attack with fists and bare knuckles will lead to "black eye" or "concussion".
Can a player with his attack say "I attack his leg" and every round do the same so that eventually the enemy has to take a leg-related consequence or can i declare "The troll blocks your sword with his nose and takes the "hole in my face" consequence" ?
Ultimately, the player determines what sort of consequence their character can take, within reason. But if a player can justify it, the consequence need be not related directly to the attack. A "Sprained Wrist" Consequence from diving for cover is just as appropriate as "Nicked By a Bullet."
Likewise, the GM determines the consequence the NPC takes, within reason.
You can place Aspects using Maneuvers, but such Aspects need to be plausibly negated by an appropriate skill. "Broken Leg," no - "Tangled in Rope," yes, "Sprained Leg," maybe, if the GM agrees that an Endurance check allows the target to "walk it off" or otherwise ignore the pain in an otherwise permanent fashion.
Sanctaphrax and I hammered out a Fists-based Stunt that would allow the intentional infliction of Consequences, called "Brutality" (click here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21213.msg982228.html#msg982228)) along with an add-on, "Extreme Brutality"
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Seems to me that you might have a bit of a misunderstanding with how one breaks a block. You don't need to spend actions trying to break a block. The block is broken if you attempt any action that it's preventing and get higher than the block. So in this example since the block is against any action then if the troll tries to punch someone and gets higher than a 4 (seems likely) then he punches someone and the block is broken (though it would still apply as a defense for this action, but only if the target of his punch did worse than 4 on their own defense).
As for consequences backing what Devonapple said, DFRPG is a very story based and conceptual game. When someone overcomes your defense roll it doesn't mean they have actually hit you. Even if you take a consequence the other person still may not have even hit you. Stress and consequences can represent exhaustion and injures received while trying to avoid attacks, so if one wants to one could take a consequence of "abraded face" from a sword attack because they dove to the ground and wound up landing on their face. Or with this example here the troll could take any number of other physical injuries even though the wizard was trying to freeze his leg.
From a different perspective though it is kind of a jerk move to say "I know you have been spending every exchange trying to cripple him but now he's missing an ear because I say so."
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From a different perspective though it is kind of a jerk move to say "I know you have been spending every exchange trying to cripple him but now he's missing an ear because I say so."
That was what i was thinking too.
On a sidenote. The troll has a weapon 5 (i think from the top of my head attack. When he get's 5 shifts it's still a 1 shift above the block.
Let's say the werecat detective rolls 6 succeses against him. Does hi still apply his weapon damage ? If not, when does he do ?
*goes now and rereads the section on weapons*
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Does the troll have a weapon:5 or an attack roll of 5? If it's the attack roll then a six beats him and he deals no damage, if it's the weapon then you need the troll to be rolling his attack and comparing that.
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5 shifts and a weapon 5. So a 10 stress hit normaly.
The power 4 block reduces this to 1+5 stress.
To defend the PC has to get at least 2 shifts because that would completely negate the attack ( -1 shift ). If she only rolls 1 succes he still has 0 shifts and so his weapon connects. and he still does 5 stress.
Did i get everything right ?
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The character can use the block or their own defense but not both. So if the character rolls higher than a 5 then they dodge and the block makes no difference whatsoever, if they roll lower than 4 though then they can use the block as their defense roll and the attack goes through at 5-4+5 (the attack strength-the block+ the weapon rating).
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5 shifts and a weapon 5. So a 10 stress hit normaly.
The power 4 block reduces this to 1+5 stress.
To defend the PC has to get at least 2 shifts because that would completely negate the attack ( -1 shift ). If she only rolls 1 succes he still has 0 shifts and so his weapon connects. and he still does 5 stress.
Did i get everything right ?
Ooops misunderstood.
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I don't think that you're doing this right.
Ignore the weapon rating until you know whether the attack will hit.
The attack hits if the attack roll is equal to or greater than the defence roll and all blocks.
All blocks that had their strengths exceeded are broken.
Then, the number of shifts by which the attack roll exceeded the highest block or defence roll is added to the weapon rating. Subtract the armour from that number and apply that much stress.
So, in your first example, the block does nothing. The werecat dodges without its help, and it is is broken because the troll rolled higher than its strength.
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thank you Sanctaphrax and sinker
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How about something along these lines (this is assuming the ice-flinging mage manages a consequence; if not the action is easier):
"Ok, you manage to inflict the mild consequence 'Leg encased in a block of ice' on the Troll. Now it's his turn. Drawing on his supernatural recovery, the muscles in his leg bulge with renewed strength, splitting the block of ice into large chunks (supplemental action, -1 to main action). He then grabs a large chunk of ice and plays 'bowling for mages'. This counts as an Weapons maneuver (modified by Might), attempting to place the aspect 'Legs knocked out from under me' on the annoying mage that keeps trying to put blocks on him. Weapons 4, +2 for Might modifying (due to Strength), -1 for a supplemental action. Now he needs to roll his maneuver using his adjusted skill of Superb 5 against that Great 4 block in order to succeed in the maneuver (and break the block in the process)."
Now the flattened (by otherwise unhurt) caster has a choice: stay on the ground and cast his block again, or maneuver to cancel the aspect. If he does the latter, then the Troll is free to act. If he does the former, then the Troll's next action should be to tag the aspect for a grapple attempt, which would be Might (which is missing from the sample Troll in OW, but I'd rule would be at least a 3) + 2 (for Strength). This is likewise likely to succeed, with or without the block.
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The biggest advantage of wizards is that they can adapt to their targets. Enemy is big and tough? Attack or block mentally vs their Discipline. Enemy is a speedster? Crush them with main force vs Might or Endurance. Enemy is smart and wily? Blast to bits with bolts of energy vs Athletics.
I must agree with this, as during my last game they had a Mythic Toughness Ogre, get taken out by Incite Emotion because he wasn't good at combat. It surprised the hell out of the other players who had been shooting bolts of fire, lances of ice, and one swinging a big Scythe. Hmmm. I guess they may have learned that 4 stress boxes are easier than 10 with armor 3.