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Messages - LostInTime

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121
DF Spoilers / Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« on: April 21, 2021, 06:53:19 PM »
Didn't Mab agree to the condition that she wouldn't make him harm those he cares for?
She won't tell the Winter Knight to kill the people Harry loves. Harry Dresden, Wizard, owes her a favor, free of encumbering conditions. According to the fae rules, if Harry wanted that sort of condition attached to the favors, he should have specified it when the conditions of the debt were arranged.

Never deal with the fae.

122
DF Spoilers / How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« on: April 21, 2021, 06:09:36 PM »
Forgive me if this is kind of obvious, but...

Harry made a deal with Lea for power prior to the series beginning.

In Summer Knight, Lea traded the debt to Mab. Mab and Harry negotiated the debt could be settled by Harry performing three services. Mab states that the first favor is to find the killer of the Summer Knight.

At the end of Summer Knight, Mab offered to cancel the debt in exchange for Harry taking up the Winter Knight mantle. Harry refused, two more favors were still owed.

In Small Favor, Mab tried to collect on the second favor. Harry balked. Mab again offered to cancel the debt in exchange for Harry taking up the Winter Knight mantle. Harry performed the favor, finding Marcone. At this point, Harry still owed Mab one favors.

In Changes, Harry approaches Mab with a deal to accept the Winter Knight mantle in exchange for her healing his broken back, give him power to rescue his daughter, and that she not force him to kill anyone he loved. Harry fails to mention anything about the third and final favor.

Mab can't order the Winter Knight to kill, say, Molly. (Like she's ordered the Winter Knight to kill Maeve) But she could require Harry Dresden to kill the Winter Lady in order to fulfill the third favor.

Sword of Damocles, indeed.


123
DF Spoilers / Re: Dresden and Lara
« on: April 19, 2021, 04:38:33 PM »
The question isn't whether or not Lara can control her demon. The question is whether or not Harry can control his mantle.

124
DF Spoilers / Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« on: April 18, 2021, 02:35:14 PM »
Let's agree that Uriel is immortal as long as he retains his grace.

Harry's already been halfway to the other side, a soul is immortal.

Being unaging and naturally deathless is not the same as immortal. Mab is not immortal. She was not born immortal. She became immortal when she took up a fae mantle.

I'll refer you back to Bob's words in Cold Days. After about a decade, the person is lost behind the mantle. We've seen glimmers of this with Molly. Maeve entered Harry's birthday party bucky bare-assed. Molly did her "Welcome to the Jungle" entrance in Battle Ground clad only in frost. I'll be interested to see if Molly starts taking on Maeve's crazy, cock-tease personality.

Mab has been the Winter Queen for almost a thousand years. The mortal Mab can only peek out from behind the mantle on the Summer Solstice, when Winter has its weakest hold on her. She is mostly mantle at this point. Very little of Mab remains, on a day-to-day basis. But there has to be something left. Perhaps that's why the prior Summer Mother resigned?

In any event, Butcher's going to tell this tale sooner or later.

125
DF Spoilers / Re: Dresden and Lara
« on: April 18, 2021, 02:24:22 PM »
Pay attention to detail though. It's sealed with the kiss. If they can't kiss, then it doesn't count. And I doubt that them getting married will get rid of his protection. I've read the short. That was a marriage that was sabotaged. Will was giving his heart to someone who he thought was the love of his life. The marriage between Harry and Lara isn't a marriage of love. They know what they are getting with the other. A business partner, not a spouse.
Lara can take the hit to break the protection.

The feelings don't matter, it's the vows that matter.

126
DF Spoilers / Re: Dresden and Lara
« on: April 17, 2021, 11:49:23 PM »
After the wedding Harry will no longer have protection from Lara. The wedding vows are a spell that removes true love protection. See Something Borrowed for confirmation.

127
DF Spoilers / Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« on: April 16, 2021, 07:28:13 PM »
I don't know why this didn't occur to me earlier. The tell to the truth that fae queens are mortals still is in Peace Talks.

Molly says she could cross the circle. But she'd leave the fae mantle behind. Since it's much more invasive than Harry's mantle, what came out on the other side wouldn't be 'right'. This makes sense since her mantle conveys immortality, and Harry's doesn't.

In Cold Days, Maeve was killed on Halloween, despite being an 'immortal'. Kringle comments later that Halloween is a day when mantles can be put on or discarded. It's the day when Vaddrung dons his Kringle mantle. That means on at least two days of the year, there's a width between the mortals wearing them and the mantles. Why two days you ask? Because Mab gave Harry a conditional suggestion in Battle Ground that if she should die that night, then Harry should kill Molly. It was the Summer Solstice, a cosmologically important day of the year. A day when 'the stars were aligned'.

The mantles are immortal. They convey that immortality to the mortals wearing them. But there are days when that protection is not absolute.

The fae queens are mortal.

128
DF Spoilers / Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« on: April 15, 2021, 01:14:45 PM »
Choice plays such a big part in mortal affairs, that stripping someone of their free will by saddling them with a mantle seems sure to draw down the response of The White God.

Especially if we find out at the end that it was Hecate evading TWG's edict to give up their immortality or withdraw from the mortal world. My theory is that she did both, and didn't. We'll find out when Mother Winter (Hecate?) spills the beans.

129
DF Spoilers / Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« on: April 14, 2021, 10:50:16 PM »

No, she was groomed, Mab admitted that, Molly's decisions had something to do with that. 
The mantle jumped into Molly, it didn't jump into Murphy who was also nearby.
The mantle could have also jumped back to Mab. As Rhuel's Summer Knight mantle jumped back to Aurora when Rhuel was murdered by Slate.

130
DF Spoilers / Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« on: April 14, 2021, 10:47:44 PM »
Free will does not mean that everything that happens to you is somehow your choice. Being born was not your choice.other people make choices too.

Sure with some verbal gymnastics you can say that Molly chose to go to the island or you can point to several other choices she made in the past that lead to it but often what happens to you is not your choice, only how you handle it. Molly decided to take the job seriously
This is the "Sins of the Father" argument. The children bear the weight of everything their parents do. There's no way to make a fresh start and vendettas never end.

131
DF Spoilers / Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« on: April 14, 2021, 01:09:14 AM »
I'm wondering about the part choice plays in accepting a mantle.

Mother Winter - The only original fae queen. She's going to talk about who the sponsor was and how the mantles were created. Probably not until the BAT.
Mother Summer - Previously the Summer Queen, ascended when the OG Mother Summer retired, abdicated or was killed.
Titania - Current Summer Queen. Previously Summer Lady. We don't know how she got the mantle.
Mab - Current Winter Queen. Previously Winter Lady. We don't know how she got the mantle.
Aurora - Prior Summer Lady. Nfected. We don't know how she got her mantle.
Maeve - Prior Winter Lady. Nfected. We don't know how she got her mantle.
Lily - Prior Summer Lady, Prior Summer Knight. Aurora forced the Summer Knight mantle upon her. Then when Aurora was killed, she has the Summer Lady mantle forced on her as the closest suitable vessel for fae power.
Sarissa - Current Summer Lady. Had the mantle forced upon her when Lily was killed.
Molly - Current Winter Lady. Had the mantle forced upon her when Maeve was killed.

Of the three fae queen mantle transitions we've seen in the books, none of them were voluntary. None of the ladies have said, "Sure, give me this power, I want it." Lily didn't even say she wanted the Summer Knight mantle. Which seems inconsistent with Harry accepting the Winter Knight mantle and Fix the Summer Knight, but since Aurora was Nfected at the time, not impossible.

Lily, Sarissa and Molly had no choice. They also had no choice in whether or not they would deal with the fae courts. Sarissa and Lily because they were changelings. Molly because she was apprenticed to Harry, who was already involved with Leanansidhe because of something his mother had done. Again, no choice. Later, when Harry accepted the Winter Knight mantle, Molly had no choice in that. When Harry 'died' Leanansidhe took over training her in Harry's stead, because of the fae court's obligation to fulfill Harry's obligations. Again, no choice on Molly's part. Which led to her being forced to take the Winter Lady mantle as her association with Leanansidhe made her a suitable vessel for fae power.

I feel like I'm missing something, but choice has got to play a part in all of this. It's like choosing to pick up a denarius, or a sword.

(Sigh) Time for a re-read.

132
DF Spoilers / Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« on: April 13, 2021, 12:38:45 AM »
I’m not sure I’ve gotten all of this sorted out in my head, so I’m going to lay it out here. Feel free to jump on and correct any inaccuracies.
Back in pre-history, The White God told all of the other gods to vamoose. Give up your immortality and live on, or keep it and have nothing more to do with mortals.

Someone, probably Hecate, maybe the Norns, instead of giving up their mortality, sponsored the fae. The fae, who had historically been the foot soldiers defending the Outer Gates, the keepers of the Outer Gates got a promotion. Their sponsor split their immortality into at least 8 mantles, 6 immortal, two not. Set up the two fae courts, one, Winter, to lead the defense of the Outer Gates, and one, Summer, to defend reality against the Winter court.

But, and this is important, The two tripartite divisions that are the fae queens, are still immortal. And The White God’s edict still holds true, their power was ordered to stop messing with humanity, so they cannot truck with mortals. In Summer Knight it’s described as fae queens cannot directly interfere with or kill anyone who isn’t attached to the courts through birthright or bargain. They they can do so indirectly with trickery, guile or glamor. Mortals, however, can still deal with them, since free will trumps everything. Free will allows mortals to deal with Outsiders, it certainly allows them to deal with fae.

It’s my theory, although not confirmed, that the fae queens must always be mortal when endowed with a mantle. Titania and Mab are sisters. Mab revealed to Harry that she was mortal once. Logically, that means so was Titania. At best they were changelings, but unless they’d chosen fae before they were endowed with their mantles, they would still be considered mortal. Aurora, Maeve and Sarissa were their daughters, arguably making them changelings, but if my theory that follows is correct, that’s not so cut and dried. Lily was a changeling, but she hadn’t selected her fae heritage yet when Aurora endowed her with the Summer Knight mantle and turned her into a statue. When Aurora died, She was endowed with the Summer Lady mantle, while still a mortal, albeit one wearing a mantle. Molly, of course, was fully mortal when she was endowed with the Winter Lady mantle.

The mantles that are not immortal, went to the knights, the hatchet men for the fae courts. These are mortals who the fae can sick on other mortals, to kill or hurt. Because the fae queens are constrained by The White God’s edict. Sure, the knights also will bring the pain to the fae, but what sets them apart from the other fae mantle wearers is their ability to kill mortals.

Run of the mill fae can interact with, kidnap, kill mortals. We saw that all the way back in Restoration of Faith with the troll. Jenny Greenteeth would have killed Billy and allowed Georgia to sleep on. Phobophages, Malks, Rawbones, Trolls, you name it, they have all threatened or outright killed mortals all the way through the books.

But the fae queens can’t.

In Summer Knight, Slate, in cahoots with Aurora, kills Ronald Rheul, the Summer Knight. No problem there, knights are supposed to kill mortals. Aurora buys it at the hands of Harry’s minions. Essentially her death is at Harry’s hands. He might have been doing the slicing and dicing with the bane, but with fae logic, he was responsible. The run of the mill fae that wielded the box cutters, again, had no issue killing her.
Loyd Slate’s betrayal of Mab is also revealed in Summer Knight. But, instead of killing him and allowing the Knight’s mantle to flow back to her, she takes him prisoner and tortures him for years.

In Changes, Mab doesn’t kill Loyd Slate, Harry does.

Fast forward to Cold Days. Harry believes that Mab is trying to kill him over 77 days. But most of those attempts are through predators, traps or fae. She only tries once with a pillow and once with a shotgun. Harry, pre-Winter Knight, could have protected himself from a shotgun.
Mab orders Harry to kill Maeve because Mab believes Maeve is Nfected. Mab had previously cured Leanansidhe of Nfection. So, why didn’t Mab just do the same thing to Maeve, her own daughter in order to spare her life?

Because, even if Maeve was wearing a fae queen mantle, she’s still mortal. The mantle makes her into a high sidhe. The mantle is what doesn’t allow her to lie, normally. The mantle gives her the vulnerability to the bane. Just as the mantle endows her with immortality. And Kringle tells us later that mantles can be worn, exchanged or discarded. Which would imply that in order to exchange or discard a mantle, you have to possess free will.

The Nfection counters the mantle and allows Maeve to lie. It also allows her to kill Lily. Maeve is, in turn, killed by Karin.
In Peace Talks and Battle Ground, the Fomor servitors don’t get the mortal protection because they are involved with the Fomor, who are involved with the fae courts. Molly, Maeve, Sarissa and Titania are allowed to kill them with impunity.

In The Good People, Mab encourages Molly to let her mortality die. Molly responds by getting in Mab's face. Instead of bouncing her head off a solid object as Mab has done with Harry in the past, she accedes to Molly's wishes and lets her be.

I can’t think of any time in any of the books or short stories where a fae queen has killed or injured a mortal that is not involved in some way with the fae courts, either directly or through the Unseelie Accords. I think there's a strong possibility that the fae queens, with the possible exception of the only original queen, Mother Winter, may all have been, and still are, mortal.

Comments? Corrections? Amplifications? Thoughts?

133
Odin has soulfire. He can make things real. Per WOJ, that's how he reunites body and soul to create Einherjar.

Jim has also said that Athena was a spirit of intellect that leapt out of Zeus' head, just like Bonea in Harry's head. Zeus made a body for her and fused her spirit with the body.

Odin could make a body, fuse Karin's spirit into it, and make a Valkyrie. Karin's Valkyrie would be a 'sister' to Sigrun and Freydis. And she might or might not look anything like Karin.

134
Hell, Mab wouldn't do it because Mab would have to balance the scales.

She's a faerie. Killing Charity would incur a massive debt to the entire Carpenter family.

For one thing, she'd probably be on the hook for raising the rest of the Jawas, which would either result in a Evil Stepmother scenario or a hilarious sitcom plot about a faerie queen adapting to life in the 'burbs- possibly both.

I would watch the Hell out of that sitcom. And I don't like sitcoms.

135
If he wants revenge bad enough to do that he has Harry and Molly's phone numbers and neither of them would mind getting nasty with whoever killed Charity. The coins just aren't that tempting to people who have other options.

You're not thinking Jim enough. What if Charity dies because of something Mab does? Harry and Molly would be powerless to raise a hand against her because all Mab would have to do is command them not to. Michael would be on his own.

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