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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on July 07, 2022, 12:47:21 PM
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Chapter ten of The Law, Bob and Paranoid Gary have ferreted out some interesting information as to who Mr Winter Winter is.. Then Bob says something that really caught my attention about the attack on Arctus Tor and well as Harry's reaction to that remark.
"Ouch," I said. "How come Lapland and Inverno are working for freaking Marcone?"
"Take that up with Mab," Bob said. "But based on Inverno's court records, it looks like she stuck the pair of them out in the mortal world not too long after Arctis Tor got slagged."
"She doesn't trust them."
"Guy's a demigod of strife and division," Bob said.
I think this could be the significant paragraph in the whole novella. There has been wild speculation about the attack on Arctis Tor, one being that Namshiel was in on it since there was Hell Fire present. Another that it could be an inside job, or pulled off with inside help, Maeve being one of the candidates for that.
Invenrno and Ms Lapland seek shelter and are taken into the Winter Court by Mab. He happens to be the demigod of strife and division, what is associated with strife and division? Nemesis.. It is possible that they were a mole planted by Nemesis in the Winter Court. After the attack on Arctis Tor, Mab plants them in the mortal world, supposedly for balance.. Or double agent? Interesting that one of his main clients is the Baron Marcone, seems natural enough, he is a signer and member of the Accords. Or is it? When a pissed off Mab turns everything to ice in the chapel at the end of Small Favor, it is because she realizes that Maeve is now infected.. She also remarks that her and Uriel had a common enemy that day, i.e. the Denarians who were in on the attack on Arctis Tor. Could it be that she also knew that Namshiel had lost his head on Demonreach and that Marcone had gotten hold of his coin, even if he hadn't taken it up yet? Honestly I don't where all of this will lead eventually, but to quote Alice, "Curiouser and curiouser.."
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See my thread on The Law. If there is a Way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach used by the Gatekeeper, exiling Nameless and Laplander prevented them from using it. They would have to use a boat or hangglide in.
Demonreach has been central to the Circle and the Outsiders plots. If Cowl is in fact Nameless then his paper clip to Winter may have been deliberate on his part to get that access, at the expense of becoming subject to Winter Law. Kemmler was always trying to get back to Demonreach as a former Warden (did he release Nameless?), and the Outsiders, Maeve, Peabody etc have all been trying to get access.
Nameless if Cowl and being a former mortal practitioner is a possible father to Bob, need to see what Bob says again.
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See my thread on The Law. If there is a Way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach used by the Gatekeeper, exiling Nameless and Laplander prevented them from using it. They would have to use a boat or hangglide in.
Demonreach has been central to the Circle and the Outsiders plots. If Cowl is in fact Nameless then his paper clip to Winter may have been deliberate on his part to get that access, at the expense of becoming subject to Winter Law. Kemmler was always trying to get back to Demonreach as a former Warden (did he release Nameless?), and the Outsiders, Maeve, Peabody etc have all been trying to get access.
Nameless if Cowl and being a former mortal practitioner is a possible father to Bob, need to see what Bob says again.
I don't think Cowl is Nameless, there is no indication that he is a demigod.. Nor that Nameless is a former mortal practitioner, that fits more with Ms Lapland. Also Mab placed both Inverno and Laplander in the mortal world and set them up as lawyers so that really doesn't fit with what you are saying.
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I have to re-read but Nameless was the tenth child of a god a scion and a Sorceror who had an apotheosis leading to a really major power up to demigodhood status which is why Kemmler was interested in him as a partner, not a disciple. Kemmler would have considered him a peer, and he would scoff at the disciples, as Cowl indeed does.
Ms Laplander is a Finnish Witch and they took three wardens to take them down. She tried to snare Nameless and got taken instead, so he is at the very least as powerful as three wardens, but far older, which puts him at the right power level for Cowl, and why he would be interested in full godhood via The Word. He needs the power to escape Mab. If he had obtained the Darkhallow, Mab might have been the new Ms Laplander.
Suddenly Mab has a part to play in Dead Beat, through Nameless and his connection to Kemmler and her paperclipping of him. The Novella suddenly changes quite a few things we thought were settled, and that was not a throwaway line about the connection to Kemmler.
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I would like to point out that Strife and Division are not necessarily bad things -- in other contexts, we refer to them as competition. Unity for its own sake is not actually that useful and often leads to stagnation. Winter is very much a improve through struggle kind of place.
My point is that Mab would certainly be interested in little healthy competition between her servitors in a general sense. Moreover, someone like that might be useful if used in the correct circumstances. Therefore, ...
She sends the Nameless Son to Marcone after Proven Guilty (behind the scenes) -- let's say during the events of White Night where by pure coincidence (I'm sure) Marcone joins the Accords and Ms. Demeter executes her plot to betray Marcone to the Denarians and Lara Raith (now virtually a Winter Vassal) secures her hold on the White Court of Vampires.
I wonder whether Marcone was actually Mab's back-up Winter Knight and not Thomas.
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It’s fairly obvious though that Nameless be a lawyer.
I doubt Nameless knows Marcone has picked up a Denarius, and it is perilous for Nameless that Mab knows this, she won’t hesitate to set Nameless on ‘Vanilla’ Marcone if it’s suits her schemes, only for Nameless to find out the hard way that Marcone is instead Rocky Road.
Mab may have told Nameless that she was sending him to Marcone, but it was to get him out of Arctis Tor, but still bound by Winter Law. Mab rarely has a single purpose, no doubt she earned a significant favour from Marcone by pointing Nameless his way. I suspect that this was what led to Skin Game.
Lara Raith is not a Vassal she is an ally, with the important distinction that a Vassal would be bound by Winter Law and Lara is not. Useful for things Mab wants done which she can plausibly deny (Thomas rescue for example).
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... Lara Raith is not a Vassal she is an ally ...
Yes, but a distinctly junior ally.
Competent and ambitious, no doubt (but... that's how Mab like them!)
Mab is well-above Lara in personal power, in ability to lay deep & devious plots, and in the scope of her power-base (the Winter Court is MUCH vaster and more-widespread than the White Court, and top winterfae personally outclass top Whamps 1:1, all the way down the line to the weakest Whamps... and there's STILL hordes of winterfae).
... with the important distinction that a Vassal would be bound by Winter Law and Lara is not. Useful for things Mab wants done which she can plausibly deny (Thomas rescue for example).
Yeah, I think you have nailed it here. I bet "Vassal" carries some very specific connotations to a Faerie court, and "following the Laws of the Court" are included. So, not a vassal.
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Mab is well-above Lara in personal power, in ability to lay deep & devious plots, and in the scope of her power-base (the Winter Court is MUCH vaster and more-widespread than the White Court, and top winterfae personally outclass top Whamps 1:1, all the way down the line to the weakest Whamps... and there's STILL hordes of winterfae).
Yes, Mab/the Winter Court is more powerful as far as individual power and vastness but the White Court has power in other ways. From what I recall, Nameless is the first Winter Court associate we have seen holding power in the mortal realm. On the other hand, Lara has lots of federal government power. At the end of BG Mab turned to Lara to help control the narrative and keep the peace. Also, Lara did something to earn 3 favors from Mab. All this adds up to the White Court being powerful enough that Mab wants a lasting alliance through marriage to fortify both courts.
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I did say that Lara was "virtually a vassal," not actually a vassal. While I don't think that Lara is bound by Winter Law (nor would it be advantageous for Mab to bind her in that way), could you imagine a scenario where Lara crosses Mab on anything that Mab might want her to do or not do? Personally, I cannot. That being said, I doubt that Mab cares one bit about internal White Court machinations as long as the "work" gets done.
Mab is actually a pretty good boss.
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I did say that Lara was "virtually a vassal," not actually a vassal. While I don't think that Lara is bound by Winter Law (nor would it be advantageous for Mab to bind her in that way), could you imagine a scenario where Lara crosses Mab on anything that Mab might want her to do or not do? Personally, I cannot. That being said, I doubt that Mab cares one bit about internal White Court machinations as long as the "work" gets done.
Mab is actually a pretty good boss.
Harry would not agree.
But yes the whole vassal thing is very much defined by The Law, so in Little Things Toot declaring he is a vassal of Harry’s is actually quite important. The fact that he invited his Vassal to stay at the Castle I think is to force a change in the Ways so it creates a way to the Winter Knights chambers in Arctis Tor, Garrisoned Fortress in the NeverNever of Winter. His meditation appears to quite at odds with his routine in The Law, he is fully armed again, so what is he spending the time on? He has opened Ways, but if he is forcing a Way that is something new, even though he has turned the Castle into Winters Fortress in the mortal world it can’t be easy and Harry doesn’t have time for it to occur naturally, which is probably would.
Little Things appears to take place after The Law, so his run in with Nameless got him thinking. Nameless’office is described as having a single small door but not even windows, a very defensible arrangement but one which would require an emergency back door through the NeverNever to somewhere safe. Harry pulled the same trick with the shipping container.
And of course if there is a way point to Demonreach(and Harry twice describes the Ice Garden as a prison) it creates a nifty shortcut to Demonreach from the Castle. With Nameless barred from Arctis Tor its as safe a bolt hole as he can arrange.
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Harry would not agree.
Fair enough, but Harry performatively complains above everyone in authority. I stand by my assertion that Mab is objectively a good boss.
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She is good at her job, but I wouldn’t want to work for her.
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"Guy's a demigod of strife and division," Bob said.
Mab, I note, is no stranger to "strife and division" herself.
Winter is fundamentally about those two things, with most entities fighting tooth & nail to hold their own position against rivals, to tear their rivals down, etc.
Harry reports on it, that the faeries are constantly testing him -- Mab's chosen -- for weakness.
Molly the Winter Lady -- #3 in the entire Winter court! -- reports they test her, too.
Lea is known to have been tempted by Nemesis with power -- the power to supplant Mab.
The entire Winter-run action at the Outer Gates is strife writ on a cosmic scale.
I'm not at all clear Mab finds Inverno objectionable at all... I suspect she approves.
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I'm not at all clear Mab finds Inverno objectionable at all... I suspect she approves.
True, but because of that she doesn't want him as a roommate.
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Nope, he is too powerful a force of strife and diversion to be useful, she took him in to bind him to Winter Law and likely only for that reason. Hint- the name of the Novella.
I think that was why she was after Harry for so long. To bind a Destroyer with Winter Law. Harry however is a good deal more useful than Nameless to Mab.
Mab uses The Law as a weapon, to bind, to limit those who might oppose her.
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Mab uses The Law as a weapon, to bind, to limit those who might oppose her.
In that she isn't unique, that is what most powerful mortals do.
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Fair enough, but Harry performatively complains above everyone in authority. I stand by my assertion that Mab is objectively a good boss.
That kind of depends on how you define a good boss. She causes Harry to stab himself in the hand.(Summer Knight) Alters his mind.(Small Favor) She slams his head into an elevator car.(Skin Game) Generally speaking I prefer my good bosses to keep their hands to themselves. Also I play for Pay. ;D
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In that she isn't unique, that is what most powerful mortals do.
Yes, but not through indirect means of enforcement, through direct application to the subject. Mab doesnt have to send someone for you, you deliver yourself to her. For someone like Nameless that must be galling.
Harry himself was interested that going past a threshold without invitation not only removed the greater part of his power but also the grip of Winter Law. And yet, he wasn’t paralysed and he still had the physical conditioning the Mantle had left him with, a 6 foot 9 inch man as strong as humanly possible.
Harry could theoretically ask the Carpenters to revoke their invitation (Charity could do it genuinely) and once inside past the strongest of all thresholds make all sorts of plans Mab won’t know about in complete violation of Winter Law, which hinge on him being continuing to appear to be bound by Winter Law. That I think is coming, a time Harry needs to disobey Mab because he is right and she is wrong.
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That kind of depends on how you define a good boss. She causes Harry to stab himself in the hand.(Summer Knight) Alters his mind.(Small Favor) She slams his head into an elevator car.(Skin Game)
Mab has to use force in these circumstances because that's what Harry responds to. Harry was rather naive in SK, and Mad exerting her power over him (after he insulted her) showed him who had the power in the relationship. In Small Favor, Mab took his memories away to protect him from the Summer Court. Then in SG, Harry offered an insult to Mab in public, so he had to be taught a lesson; a strongly worded conversation would not have done the trick. Mab may not be a good boss, but she is the boss she needs to be to control/guide Harry and the mortal realm. Now that Harry is starting to be less aggressive and think ahead more, I would think Mab would stop beating him as an underling and talking to him as more of a peer because Harry is ready for that kind of relationship.
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Mab has to use force in these circumstances because that's what Harry responds to. Harry was rather naive in SK, and Mad exerting her power over him (after he insulted her) showed him who had the power in the relationship. In Small Favor, Mab took his memories away to protect him from the Summer Court. Then in SG, Harry offered an insult to Mab in public, so he had to be taught a lesson; a strongly worded conversation would not have done the trick. Mab may not be a good boss, but she is the boss she needs to be to control/guide Harry and the mortal realm. Now that Harry is starting to be less aggressive and think ahead more, I would think Mab would stop beating him as an underling and talking to him as more of a peer because Harry is ready for that kind of relationship.
We saw that in Battle Ground, actually I think it more that Harry is maturing and understands Mab more, the stakes and realizing that as a star born, he has a serious role to play.
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Mab has to use force in these circumstances because that's what Harry responds to. Harry was rather naive in SK, and Mad exerting her power over him (after he insulted her) showed him who had the power in the relationship. In Small Favor, Mab took his memories away to protect him from the Summer Court. Then in SG, Harry offered an insult to Mab in public, so he had to be taught a lesson; a strongly worded conversation would not have done the trick. Mab may not be a good boss, but she is the boss she needs to be to control/guide Harry and the mortal realm. Now that Harry is starting to be less aggressive and think ahead more, I would think Mab would stop beating him as an underling and talking to him as more of a peer because Harry is ready for that kind of relationship.
Harry is growing up. While he may think a snide comment in response to meeting another supernatural, he is no longer saying them at every chance. That is giving him the chance to resolve some situations without escalation.
The supernatural community requires manners because many of it's denizens are inclined to go straight to (extreme)violence rather than trading insults. Letting a public insult pass is seen as a weakness in most of their circles.
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But when he goes for the side comment these days is it backsliding, or is a calculated insult to get a particular reaction? His battle with Eb springs to mind.