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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on February 17, 2018, 07:09:45 PM
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OK, so some of us have chosen Harry as the most likely suspect to have fixed Little Chicago. (I was never a big fan of this hypothesis until recently.) Of course I mean an older Harry who time travelled back to the past to do so. Therefore it was TT Harry who hit and ran his younger self at the beginning of Proven Guilty in order to get his younger self out of the way for a while. Before I continue I want to refer to best evidence that this hypothesis is the correct one. From a conversation between Bob and Harry near the end of Proven Guilty about LC:
Bob - "No it isn't," Bob said. "Just really, really, really, really, really, really difficult. And unlikely. He would have had to know that you had a lab down here. And he would have had to know how to get around your wards."
Harry - "Plus intimate knowledge of the design to tinker with it like that," I said. "To say nothing of the fact that he would have to know it existed at all, and no one does."
Well, Thomas may have known, but his ability to do magic and understanding the nuts and bolts of how it works is limited. So Bob may have been hinting it was a man who fixed Little Chicago and Harry's response strongly suggests he was the only man who fulfilled the requirements needed to do the job.
So if you accept that TT Harry fixed LC, that is all well and good, but what else did he do? I mean you don't think an older Harry went through all the trouble it must have taken to travel back in time, and break one of the Laws of Magic, and then just head back home? Recently, I re-watched an old episode of Deep Space Nine, "Trials and Tribble-ations" where Captain Sisco, Dax and company travel back to the Enterprise of Star Trek TOS. Specifically they go back into the episode "The Trouble with Tribbles." It's was really, really well done, and it got me thinking about the mysteries of Proven Guilty and how TT Harry might fit in. Here's part of a conversation between Harry and Ebenezer just a few paragraphs past the one above with Bob and Harry.
Harry- "I think we got played."
Eb - "By the Summer Lady?"
Harry - I shook my head. "I think Lily got suckered just as much as we did."
Eb - He frowned and rubbed at his head with one palm. "How so?"
Harry - "That's the part I can't figure," I said. "I think someone set Molly up to be a beacon for the fetches. And I'm damned sure that it was no accident that those fetches took Molly to Arctis Tor when it was so lightly defended. Someone wanted me there at Arctis Tor."
Ebenezar pursed his lips. "Who?"
"I think we got used by one of the Queens to one-up one of the others, somehow. But damned if I can figure out how."
OK, we know from a WOJ that Mab came out ahead after the events in PG, but during the novel she may have been stuck in her own realm, negotiating with the Black Council and defending her home, or at least holding down the fort in case a second attack came. Harry and his party couldn't have made it to Arctis Tor if Lily hadn't given them some Summer protection, but the Winter Knight wouldn't have had any trouble with the cold. So it's possible TT Harry may have gone to Arctis Tor and conspired with Mab in the events of PG. The last sentence of the conversation between Eb and Harry probably refers to Maeve's manipulation of Lily, but perhaps more subtly it also points to Mab coming out on top in the game; possibly with the help of TT Harry.
Consider - "Someone wanted me there at Arctis Tor." Who fits that description better than a Harry himself? I mean a future Harry who knows what would have happened happened if Molly didn't get help that she needed. Following this logic it was TT Harry who set up Molly to be kidnapped by the fetches in order to save her.
That is as far as I have gotten. I need to reread Proven Guilty to see if I can spot other places TT Harry might have intervened. Of course, if this idea is correct then it is also possible TT Harry is at or near to many of the major events of PG, but doing his own thing; perhaps countering another time traveler as Sisko did in "Trials and Tribble-ations" or gathering more knowledge of the Black Council (or Outsider plans), or both.
For those of you who either came up with or have been on board with "TT Harry fixed LC" the longest, what else do you think TT Harry might have done and how do you think your ideas help explain the events in Proven Guilty?
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In short, TTH hit himself in the car, plugged the phone back in to make sure he didn't miss Molly's call, fixed LC while Harry had Bob at the convention, cast the murk at the convention that actually seemed to slow the reaper down, led the defense of Arctis Tor, showed up at Molly's door as a "familiar face" and got the invite into the house while ordering the phages to take Molly to AT rather than kill her, and investigated the Sandra Marling angle.
Oh, and he accidently brought Maggie with as his side kick, and she left her Calvin & Hobbes book in his lab while he was using LC.
Among other things. The wilder parts include TTH telling GK about the dark magic that triggers the warning to himself.
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Awesome, is there anything left for me to add?
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Not bad Griffyn612.
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In support of the "Harry accompanied the fetches to the Carpenters' house" theory, I offer the following:
“These creatures, these phages. If they are
what you say, beings of the spirit world, then how
did they manage to cross the house’s threshold?”
“Traditional way,” I said. “They got an
invitation.”
“From whom?”
“Probably Molly,” I said.
He frowned. “I have difficulty believing that
she would do such a thing.”
I felt my mouth tighten. “She probably didn’t
know they were monsters. They’re shapeshifters.
They probably appeared to her as someone she
knew, and would invite in.”
Forthill said, “Ah. I see. Someone such as you,
perhaps.”
“Perhaps,” I said quietly.
Or perhaps, remembering what was going to happen, and fearing the fetches would kill Molly rather than fetch her, Time-Travel Harry met them there and ordered them, as Winter Knight, to retrieve her and take her to Arctis Tor. When Molly opened the door and invited him and his friends in, the fetches crossed the threshold.
Either that, or he ordered them to fetch her, and told them to use his face if necessary.
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A fleshed out list of things Time-travel Harry (TTH) did while avoiding Proven Guilty Harry (PGH)
- TTH hit PGH with the car to prevent him from using the defective Little Chicago.
- TTH fixed LC while PGH and Bob were at the convention. (Or he fixed it while PGH was out and Bob was in, and ordered Bob not to tell PGH who did it) He then used it to find something or someone.
- TTH plugged the phone back in (PGH thought he'd forgotten) to make sure PGH didn't miss Molly's call.
- TTH would be the one to let Mab in on Maeve being infected (although she may have known if Maeve helped attack AT).
- TTH as WK was how Mab knew Harry'd become WK (although she technically said the "you'll kneel before me" thing in DB, she seems convinced he'll be her WK in SmF).
- Travelling in time while possessing the Warden mantle might cause the pre-ritual intellectus that Harry experienced in SmF. The island recognized him as a Warden before he was due to the fact that he was the Warden (for a day or two) before SmF while traveling back to PG.
- GK didn't know about Molly or the dark magic, but TTH clued him in (consciously or unconsciously) which ensured the message was delivered.
- The Scarecrow's look of recognition upon seeing Harry in the parking lot for the first time was because he'd recently seen him as WK. (I think someone theorized that TTH might have actually *been* the Scarecrow the entire time, and he used the Mask to manipulate himself into firing upon the fountain. Although I think that was shot down due to a WoJ on the Scarecrow being a long-time servant of Mab's)
- TTH cast the murk to slow down the Reaper phage at the convention, arriving before PGH and wrenching the door open with his WK strength. He then fled after PGH beat the phage, and PGH saw him slipping out.
- TTH was the one to bring Mab's attention on Molly, with him slipping up and implying she was important down the line. (Although she might have already been on her radar due to Lea's "first born" offer in GP)
- TTH would travel back in time by merging the two times in one place, a la Merlin's Demonreach five-times-in-one trick, and that Demonreach would be the bridge used to go back.
- With Mab, Lea, and Slate all on ice, TTH would be the one to lead the defense of AT.
- TTH accompanied the fetches to retrieve Molly (or at the minimum, ordered them to retrieve her but not kill her).
- Maggie accompanies TTH back, and leaves her C&H book in his lab (possibly while he's fixing LC).
- TTH figured out that Sandra Marling was suspicious and tracked her down. As she disappeared, it likely didn't end well for her.
- Sandra Marling is actually Mavra, and TTH killed her (see the WoK theory below for why)
[li] ADDED: TTH and someone else were still in the frozen garden, hidden in plain sight as the frozen couple in Byzantine dress while they waited for events to play out.
[/li][/list]
Possible reasons for going back
- A bad guy goes back in time, and TTH has to go back to stop them from doing something different that will break things.
- Harry goes back for a piece of information that was only known by someone alive at that time, but who's now dead or doesn't remember. Candidates are Maeve, infected Lea, or a dead-in-the-future Mab.
- Harry needs to use Little Chicago to find something/someone, but as it doesn't exist in the future, he goes back to use it.
- Harry needs the Word of Kemmler. Mab cryptically tells him that the last time she saw it was just after the battle of Arctis Tor. He goes back, finds out that Sandra Marling was actually Mavra, and he kills her (she's been dead all this time and he didn't know it!) and claims the book for himself. When Mab "last saw it", it was with TTH as he went back to the future. (This pretty much requires the Sandra=Mavra theory to be accurate)
Personally I favor the last one (WoK theory) because it gives Harry a reason to go back to that time period. Interrogating infected-Lea seems like a good second choice, but it could also be a sub-plot of the main one.
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I'm going to add the importance of Murphy to pg. Harry's car getting hit brought Murphy into the mix. When charity prays for heaven's help after the baby hair doesn't work, Murphy arrives and suggests tracking Molly by charitys blood.
Murphy has access to Harry's apartment and can bypass the wards.
She knows about the lab.
Murphy involvement coincides with your points on mavens being involved and the Word in play. It was during Murphy's vacation that the Word/mavra plot played out. And it was Murphy that was the ultimate target of the blackmail.
And Murphy goes to arctic tor.
I'd say let's not completely dismiss some Mab=Murphy angle, where there is a empowered Murphy following Harry around.
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I actually think it was Mab who fixed LC. She can drive a car or have someone do it. She would have access through Lea's garden. She is able to create incredibly complex schemes days and weeks in advance. And, as it has been said, she came out on top in the whole matter. Who knows how long she was trapped in the ice, or if that really completely incapacitated her?
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In support of the "Harry accompanied the fetches to the Carpenters' house" theory, I offer the following:
Or perhaps, remembering what was going to happen, and fearing the fetches would kill Molly rather than fetch her, Time-Travel Harry met them there and ordered them, as Winter Knight, to retrieve her and take her to Arctis Tor. When Molly opened the door and invited him and his friends in, the fetches crossed the threshold.
Either that, or he ordered them to fetch her, and told them to use his face if necessary.
That they got an invitation through the threshold was Harry's speculation. There's a WOJ to the effect that he's mistaken.
The fetches in PG hammered down the /Carpenters’/ front door, and that’s a threshold like the rock of frickin’ Gibraltar.
http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/
However, this particular WOJ was from well before Cold Days got published. Putting this under the lens of hindsight, I don't think this means they were just that beastly strong. I think it means they were able to hammer through the door because they were N-fected, and it freed them entirely from the usual requirement to respect a threshold.
Perhaps Maeve was hoping if Harry chased them back to Molly he'd choose to free dearly beloved Godmother Lea, or perhaps that something he saw at Arctis Tor would help sell her story that Mab had gone crazy.
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That they got an invitation through the threshold was Harry's speculation. There's a WOJ to the effect that he's mistaken.http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/
However, this particular WOJ was from well before Cold Days got published. Putting this under the lens of hindsight, I don't think this means they were just that beastly strong. I think it means they were able to hammer through the door because they were N-fected, and it freed them entirely from the usual requirement to respect a threshold.
Perhaps Maeve was hoping if Harry chased them back to Molly he'd choose to free dearly beloved Godmother Lea, or perhaps that something he saw at Arctis Tor would help sell her story that Mab had gone crazy.
I'm sure that's what Maeve intended, if it was her idea. But we still don't know who was behind that, as it could have been Maeve or Mab or TTH.
Scarecrow being infected would explain the hammering of the door, would explain the intelligence and recognition in Scarecrow's eyes, and would explain how Harry's magic didn't effect him (although the fear revelation later did that too).
But I'm (currently) kind of hoping that TTH was Scarecrow. I know it's not the case, but imagining it was TTH killing Glau for hitting Mouse with the van is cool. Not to mention TTH somehow knowing how to avoid his own spell, getting Molly to open her door for him, and positioning himself so that PGH would blast the fountain all seems cool.
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I think Bonnie came with him. She hasn't graduated to trashy romance novels yet; she's still on comics. And she would've been able to help Harry remember what the specific flaws were.
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He goes back, finds out that Sandra Marling was actually Mavra, and he kills her (she's been dead all this time and he didn't know it!) and claims the book for himself. When Mab "last saw it", it was with TTH as he went back to the future. (This pretty much requires the Sandra=Mavra theory to be accurate)
Is there a lot going for that theory? I have higher hopes for Mavra's long game than a reveal that Harry went back in time and killed her so shortly after she disappeared with the book. Plus if she wanted Molly to go warlock, I don't see why she wouldn't just turn her and train her as a sorcerous vampire.
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I'd prefer Ms. Marling to be a very bad disguise for a fae element of the Fomor court. It smacks of that same Fae identity joke as Ms. Sumerset(.... WAS it Mrs.?)
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Personally I favor the last one (WoK theory) because it gives Harry a reason to go back to that time period. Interrogating infected-Lea seems like a good second choice, but it could also be a sub-plot of the main one.
Don't think he needs the Word anymore. He mentioned before that he already knows how to perform the Darkhallow. If Lash's memories are either still in his memories or were transferred to Bonnie (for whom I think Minerva or Minnie would be a much better name), he wouldn't need to go back for any smaller details either. I like the usage of Little Chicago or time traveling baddie theories better.
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Is there a lot going for that theory? I have higher hopes for Mavra's long game than a reveal that Harry went back in time and killed her so shortly after she disappeared with the book. Plus if she wanted Molly to go warlock, I don't see why she wouldn't just turn her and train her as a sorcerous vampire.
No. Nothing to support it. Only Mavra's absence.
Don't think he needs the Word anymore. He mentioned before that he already knows how to perform the Darkhallow. If Lash's memories are either still in his memories or were transferred to Bonnie (for whom I think Minerva or Minnie would be a much better name), he wouldn't need to go back for any smaller details either. I like the usage of Little Chicago or time traveling baddie theories better.
I doubt Bonnie's going to be helpful, and I doubt he remembers the Word verbatim on his own. But it's possible.
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No. Nothing to support it. Only Mavra's absence.
I doubt Bonnie's going to be helpful, and I doubt he remembers the Word verbatim on his own. But it's possible.
Honestly, I got the sense that the Darkhallow itself was pretty simple. Grevane is even shocked at how straightforward it is. I think it's more a matter of power and timing than an intricate rite. You're essentially just, like, eating ghosts. Harry's already done that once. Twice, actually, if you count Ghost Story. I mean, Corpsetaker was able to pull off a miniature one without a body. Unless I'm totally misinterpreting things or forgot something.
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I doubt Bonnie's going to be helpful, and I doubt he remembers the Word verbatim on his own. But it's possible.
The only parts I'd really bet on him retaining without Lash to help him are how to raise Sue (because he's actually done it), and the Darkhallow and whatever Achilles' heel to the Black Court he threatened Mavra with having read from the Word before turning it over (because he's contemplated needing to use those).
And I'm not even really certain about the Black Court one, since he didn't use it when it would have come in handy against that Master who showed up in It's My Birthday Too. The Doylist reason was obviously that using necromancy again would have been crossing a line that doesn't fit with the light tone of a short story, but unless it's illegal because blampires are former humans, I don't see the Watsonian reason.
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Honestly, I got the sense that the Darkhallow itself was pretty simple. Grevane is even shocked at how straightforward it is. I think it's more a matter of power and timing than an intricate rite. You're essentially just, like, eating ghosts. Harry's already done that once. Twice, actually, if you count Ghost Story. I mean, Corpsetaker was able to pull off a miniature one without a body. Unless I'm totally misinterpreting things or forgot something.
The only parts I'd really bet on him retaining without Lash to help him are how to raise Sue (because he's actually done it), and the Darkhallow and whatever Achilles' heel to the Black Court he threatened Mavra with having read from the Word before turning it over (because he's contemplated needing to use those).
And I'm not even really certain about the Black Court one, since he didn't use it when it would have come in handy against that Master who showed up in It's My Birthday Too. The Doylist reason was obviously that using necromancy again would have been crossing a line that doesn't fit with the light tone of a short story, but unless it's illegal because blampires are former humans, I don't see the Watsonian reason.
I think the Darkhallow was only part of the Word. The rest, that he didn't cast and only skimmed, might have been more difficult.
Of course, that's assuming he didn't make a copy between recovering it and handing it over. JB could totally pull a surprise card and say that one of the things saved in his duffel bag was a copy of the Word. Although I doubt it.
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A bit that's forgotten by everyone (EXCEPT ME, I WILL BE VINDICATED) is the Lost Book in Small Favor.
In SF, Harry goes looking for a book on the Fae in his office, looking for information on gruffs. But... it's not there. Instead, there's a book of Calvin and Hobbes comics.
This is insane. Harry A) is a book nerd B) Has a well-organized library C) Has Bob to remember where all his books are and D) Has such a small social circle that no one could have easily taken it.
Whoever the time traveler is, "borrowed" that book. Harry makes the most sense by far.
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Also- I strongly, STRONGLY doubt that Mab fixed Little Chicago without any time travel schenanigans going on. Not only would that be an incredibly unsatisfying conclusion, it also makes no sense that it would have been a secret for so long.
Not to say that Mab doesn't keep secrets- just that this one would be pointless and boring.
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One point against Future Harry himself originally fixing Little Chicago is the conservation of history argument. It takes tons of power to go back in time and change significant things in one's own past. I think that pretty much precludes Harry from being the Original Fixer. Now, I could see that there was an Original Fixer and then in a different iteration Future Harry steps in place of this person.
I could also see a different Parallel Harry assisting our Harry out by fixing Little Chicago. This sidesteps the conservation of history argument. It also can sidestep the 'time travel' problem too. In Amber, different parallel worlds don't all have the same clock. So, there can be a parallel world where Harry" is quite advanced and he helps out this other parallel Harry (ourHarry). So, there is no time travel, nor is there conservation of history problems. This can be what is occurring with Cowl. Cowl arises from a parallel world that ticks faster than ours. He cross over into ours to mess things up. It just appears to be time travel when it really isn't.
<<If Shadows (Parallel Worlds) tick at different rates and travel between these are possible, then what appears to be time travel in some instances isn't exactly.>>
*I still argue that traversing between parallel worlds and traversing time can be fashioned into a higher function where there is a temporal component(s) to both.
One other thing to note. We should keep track of Harry's door. The difficulty people have in opening it. The carpet that gets hung up at the door. The door swelling. Etc. It's a bit weird that Jim spends so much time focusing on it. It might end up being a clue.
I know Murphy doesn't have as much trouble opening the door as Harry does.
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One point against Future Harry himself originally fixing Little Chicago is the conservation of history argument. It takes tons of power to go back in time and change significant things in one's own past. I think that pretty much precludes Harry from being the Original Fixer. Now, I could see that there was an Original Fixer and then in a different iteration Future Harry steps in place of this person.
I could also see a different Parallel Harry assisting our Harry out by fixing Little Chicago. This sidesteps the conservation of history argument. It also can sidestep the 'time travel' problem too. In Amber, different parallel worlds don't all have the same clock. So, there can be a parallel world where Harry" is quite advanced and he helps out this other parallel Harry (ourHarry). So, there is no time travel, nor is there conservation of history problems. This can be what is occurring with Cowl. Cowl arises from a parallel world that ticks faster than ours. He cross over into ours to mess things up. It just appears to be time travel when it really isn't.
<<If Shadows (Parallel Worlds) tick at different rates and travel between these are possible, then what appears to be time travel in some instances isn't exactly.>>
*I still argue that traversing between parallel worlds and traversing time can be fashioned into a higher function where there is a temporal component(s) to both.
One other thing to note. We should keep track of Harry's door. The difficulty people have in opening it. The carpet that gets hung up at the door. The door swelling. Etc. It's a bit weird that Jim spends so much time focusing on it. It might end up being a clue.
I know Murphy doesn't have as much trouble opening the door as Harry does.
It's not a concern if it's a stable time loop between the two points in time that existed both times the first time.
It's basically the same method that Merlin used to create Demonreach. Five times simultaneously at once. Only in Harry's case, the bridge (probably Demonreach) will exist in both times simultaneously, which will allow him to walk out into the world in the time of PG the first time it happened.
Ergo, no need for more complicated first-fixer.
As for power and knowledge of time travel, he's got plenty of each between Alfred, Mab, Vadderung, and Gatekeeper. I'm sure Uriel could help with the non-linear bits as required.
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Yeah, I had no problem with him doing time travel; the problem was with time travel plus changing his own past significantly. Your example though does sound reasonable. I still prefer someone other than Harry in the same timeline as he to do it. I'd consider a Harry in a Parallel world that ticks faster than ours being a possibility. He didn't have the problem of Little Chicago blowing up in his face, so he helped out our Harry. This would only be if Harry was the person who did it.
If it was Mab or someone else on her level like Vadderung, etc then the conservation of history, time travel concerns are mute.
As to Merlin and Demonreach, Merlin wasn't changing his 'own' past. If Harry is the Fixer and he is Time Traveling to do so, then he is changing his own past which is a distinction that didn't occur with Merlin and Demonreach.
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Yeah, I had no problem with him doing time travel; the problem was with time travel plus changing his own past significantly. Your example though does sound reasonable. I still prefer someone other than Harry in the same timeline as he to do it. I'd consider a Harry in a Parallel world that ticks faster than ours being a possibility. He didn't have the problem of Little Chicago blowing up in his face, so he helped out our Harry. This would only be if Harry was the person who did it.
If it was Mab or someone else on her level like Vadderung, etc then the conservation of history, time travel concerns are mute.
As to Merlin and Demonreach, Merlin wasn't changing his 'own' past. If Harry is the Fixer and he is Time Traveling to do so, then he is changing his own past which is a distinction that didn't occur with Merlin and Demonreach.
We don't know the times Merlin completed the spell. It might have been across the entire existence of Earth, or it could have been within his lifetime. He could very well have changed his own destiny/history and we wouldn't have a way of knowing.
Of course, the big difference between the two would be that Merlin was working during the time merges, whereas Harry wouldn't be.
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How about this option. Merlin from 5 (or more) parallel realities participated in the same event. They were linked in purpose and synced w/ some merged mind.
Think of what Harry could do with the other Harry's he encounters in Skin Game in his dreamscape with Molly. If Harry could work with them, together they could each do separate jobs, in different times, all at once. If Harry and they are able to learn to time travel. They could each go to different times to do a similar thing that Merlin was able to do.
It definitely makes things more understandable if the working is distributed and coordinated with his 'Shadow' selves.
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Possible counterpoint: Time Travel seems to be treated different than parallel universes. See Harry's comment in Proven Guilty; roughly "We're all time travelers. We just pulled into the passing lane for a while." (Granted, that's a flippant Harry comment. But still.)
More to the point: when Merlin did assemble Demonreach, Bob played it as a video of him weaving things simultaneously. If it was a bunch of alt!Merlins working in tandem, that's the sort of thing that Bob could easily explain, even to the idiot monkey that is Harry. Given that Merlin creating time loops like nobody's business could set up Harry doing the same thing. . . Something something QED.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Mirror Mirror will have something to say about this. Or at least heavily imply.
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Yeah, I'm sticking with the silly putty theory for now. Parallel Merlins working in tandem somehow seems like a longer stretch than a single Merlin doing it five times at once.
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If Harry goes back in time to fix Little Chicago, he isn't changing his own past. It's a case of a stable time loop in which the current timeline includes Harry's trip that fixes it. It's the You Already Changed the Past trope; from Harry's perspective, he's ensuring that the events in Proven Guilty play out the way they did for him during the events in Proven Guilty.
About the missing Fae book: Good catch, but it doesn't seem like a book is missing. From Small Favor, page 24 on Nook:
"I've seen these goat guys, or read about them before," I said. "Or at least something close to them. Where did I put those texts on the near reaches of the Nevernever?"
"North wall, green plastic box under the workbench," Bob provided immediately.
"Thanks," I said. I dragged out the heavy plastic storage box. It was filled with books, most of them leather-bound, handwritten treatises on various supernatural topics. Except for one book that was a compilation of "Calvin and Hobbes" comic strips. How had that gotten in there?
To me, the exchange indicates that Dresden knows there's an entry in one of the books, but not which one, so he's doing broad research with things that are available to him. The outlier is the Calvin and Hobbes book. Harry eventually finds the entry on the eighth one, so it doesn't look like anything is missing.
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How about this option. Merlin from 5 (or more) parallel realities participated in the same event. They were linked in purpose and synced w/ some merged mind.
Think of what Harry could do with the other Harry's he encounters in Skin Game in his dreamscape with Molly. If Harry could work with them, together they could each do separate jobs, in different times, all at once. If Harry and they are able to learn to time travel. They could each go to different times to do a similar thing that Merlin was able to do.
It definitely makes things more understandable if the working is distributed and coordinated with his 'Shadow' selves.
Modification: One Merlin from our timeline, travels to 5 different parallel universes, at a different time in each. Effectively, this makes Demonreach a 5D Pentagram, able to keep in entities that could travel in time as well as parallel dimensions.
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That works too. It bypasses him affecting 5points in a single timeline. It's far more reasonable to include parallel worlds in its creation since many of these entries do span across multiple realities and times.
It then means that to undo demonreach, demonreach needs to be destroyed in multiple parallel realities and/Or times.
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Modification: One Merlin from our timeline, travels to 5 different parallel universes, at a different time in each. Effectively, this makes Demonreach a 5D Pentagram, able to keep in entities that could travel in time as well as parallel dimensions.
Except he did all five at once. What you propose would be five builds at five different times.
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I think the five things at once can be explained by a hive mind that spans across time and parallel realities. He needs to be able to coordinate things precisely. As long as Merlin is able to reach this simultaneous check, then either mine or the modified one works.
This may be a tie into something like idharry. If idharry is a reflection of a starborn power that allows Harry "no master where you go, there you are", then Harry could connect to his alter selves.
In a similar fashion, Merlin (if he was a starborn) could do something similar. Now if the Idharry/idmerlin isn't restricted to starborn but some wizard power the same can be true.
We still don't know if Merlin only used one timeline/reality to create demonreach. With parallel realities we get more options.
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Except he did all five at once. What you propose would be five builds at five different times.
Point. Rethinking.
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Point. Rethinking.
The only way it'd work is what raidem is suggesting. That five Merlins became linked as one. Then the could either travel to five times in the same universe and complete the rituals once in tandem with one mind, with everything identical. Or they could link and travel to five different times in five different universes (Bob did say it could be more than just 4 dimensions) in tandem with one mind, with everything identical.
I find either less plausible than time putty, but people don't seem to find time putty particularly plausible either, so that seems fair.
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If you restrict yourself to one parallel reality, then you are making 5 stable time loops coinciding with Demonreach's creation all within that reality. I mean we have enough problems with one stable timeloop. To add 4 more is just adding trouble, which is why I think Demonreach's creation needs to get distributed among several parallel realities.
Also the hivemind/simultaneous aspect can be what a Grace bestowed on Merlin could facilitate. Though there may be other options that can be used short of a Grace/Mantle.
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If you restrict yourself to one parallel reality, then you are making 5 stable time loops coinciding with Demonreach's creation all within that reality. I mean we have enough problems with one stable timeloop. To add 4 more is just adding trouble, which is why I think Demonreach's creation needs to get distributed among several parallel realities.
Also the hivemind/simultaneous aspect can be what a Grace bestowed on Merlin could facilitate. Though there may be other options that can be used short of a Grace/Mantle.
That's why I think an angelic Grace is involved. A non-linear being would have to be involved for five times simultaneously.
But no matter what way you slice it, you're making five bridges. You're either combining five times with one guy, or making five mental bridges across time, or five bridges across time and universes.
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It's likely 5 slightly alternative versions of Merlin banded together and made it, linking the 5 timelines in one existence of intertwined history... this is likely why there are various versions of people who resemble Dresden in this one existence, each is actually from a slightly different existence that changed how they were personified by belief into different mythological figures, but share a quasi-fluid history. This could also be why the timeline fluctuations in the DF are wrote through Harry's end perspective, his memories are mushed together of different timelines... this also implies the Mandela effect is by and large responsible for our mythology such as it is from now 'memetic/dream' perspective.
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I favor the 5 different merlins cooperating theory.
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I mean imagine since the DF is a multiverse, when all the different versions went backward they gradually went up the flow of time itself until there were no other variant choice universes, they made DR in the beginning and it split off from there in a stable loop that produced five universes were merlin went back in time and made DR, and all 5 did so at the same time, coming in from different times.
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What I want to know is what five time periods? What makes those points in time important? I mean was it one year apart for each one? 100 years? Specific dates based on star charts? Will we ever know? Maybe they align with each time a Starborn can be born? Halloween? Would one of the points actually have been in the future, and not just 5 points in the past?
If Merlin actually pulled this off on his own I have to believe he took up a seriously powerful Mantle... Say from Cronos who was supposed to be the god of time. If that's the case he may have been elevated to some distant place in the nevernever, and that's why nobody knows what happened to him. Or maybe he runs around with an eye patch and is known to be jolly.
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It's likely 5 slightly alternative versions of Merlin banded together and made it, linking the 5 timelines in one existence of intertwined history... this is likely why there are various versions of people who resemble Dresden in this one existence, each is actually from a slightly different existence that changed how they were personified by belief into different mythological figures, but share a quasi-fluid history. This could also be why the timeline fluctuations in the DF are wrote through Harry's end perspective, his memories are mushed together of different timelines... this also implies the Mandela effect is by and large responsible for our mythology such as it is from now 'memetic/dream' perspective.
The biggest issue I have with five Merlins in five universes at five times theory is that it makes Demonreach five times as vulnerable.
If it was created in one timeline, then it has to be unmade in that timeline. But if it was made in five, then a successful attack on any of the others would destroy it. That's five times as much trouble.
Five Merlins coming to make it in one timeline would at least avoid that.
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The biggest issue I have with five Merlins in five universes at five times theory is that it makes Demonreach five times as vulnerable.
If it was created in one timeline, then it has to be unmade in that timeline. But if it was made in five, then a successful attack on any of the others would destroy it. That's five times as much trouble.
Five Merlins coming to make it in one timeline would at least avoid that.
Huge problem there... how would 5 merlins enter any one timeline without causing splinter universes by the action itself? The end result would be just as troublesome as they cascade outward. instead of twisting time together they'd fray it's continuing linearity.
See, I see it opposite, making it five times at the same time actually makes it harder to trouble with, as you must attack it simultaneously from all five in order to destabilize it's resonance. Hence I think why the attack HAD to come across time. It had to break time barriers in order to effect something that had already done so... if that makes any sense, if not let me know lol.
*would they not have to destroy the possibility of Merlin making the trip at all in order to negate any one timeline were he does so? probability combined with conservation of history, perhaps they change slightly with attacks upon their timelines but a new version still comes to a head of it?
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Huge problem there... how would 5 merlins enter any one timeline without causing splinter universes by the action itself? The end result would be just as troublesome as they cascade outward. instead of twisting time together they'd fray it's continuing linearity.
See, I see it opposite, making it five times at the same time actually makes it harder to trouble with, as you must attack it simultaneously from all five in order to destabilize it's resonance. Hence I think why the attack HAD to come across time. It had to break time barriers in order to effect something that had already done so... if that makes any sense, if not let me know lol.
*would they not have to destroy the possibility of Merlin making the trip at all in order to negate any one timeline were he does so? probability combined with conservation of history, perhaps they change slightly with attacks upon their timelines but a new version still comes to a head of it?
I'm not sure why you think five Merlins coming together in one timeline would cause issues. We're talking (or at least I am) about five stable splinterverses, each with their own Merlin. And those Merlins coming together to visit one timeline and working together to make Demonreach. They'd still have to make additional trips to the past/future of that timeline to make it five times there.
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I'm not sure why you think five Merlins coming together in one timeline would cause issues. We're talking (or at least I am) about five stable splinterverses, each with their own Merlin. And those Merlins coming together to visit one timeline and working together to make Demonreach. They'd still have to make additional trips to the past/future of that timeline to make it five times there.
Due to the complexity of the answer i'm going to forgo it in favor of asking about this,(I mean, just paradox issues alone, how would their existence be stable, and why would they go to one timeline when... er, nvm, for now lol) How do you separate 5 times at the same time into the statement of five times throughout time or in five timelines? It's not an interpretation I see easily.
I'm thinking, and I think we will see a smaller version of this in MM when someone has to fix the timeline issues, that DR is basically a bow tying together multiple existences, if not at the beginning tying all of existence together around 5 central 'root/trunk' universes(in keeping with the parallels of DR to Yggdrasil.
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The Never Never moves differently time wise. Hades for example slowed it way down. The prisoners are also held in a place where there are roots that are much too deep to be from tree's... Perhaps the 5 different times at the same time were 5 different places within the Never Never where time is moving differently from one another.
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The Never Never moves differently time wise. Hades for example slowed it way down. The prisoners are also held in a place where there are roots that are much too deep to be from tree's... Perhaps the 5 different times at the same time were 5 different places within the Never Never where time is moving differently from one another.
No, no. Merlin Made DR in our reality specifically. NN time isn't the issue, it's true time as seen by mortal linearity. An i'm not sure the actual passage of time would be important than, just that the precise 'time' is co-aligned in each different area to be at the same time from whichever standard time can then be measured from... the stars themselves perhaps?
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No, no. Merlin Made DR in our reality specifically. NN time isn't the issue, it's true time as seen by mortal linearity. An i'm not sure the actual passage of time would be important than, just that the precise 'time' is co-aligned in each different area to be at the same time from whichever standard time can then be measured from... the stars themselves perhaps?
The books have been completely vague on this. What makes you so sure? Harry's home for example was protected from the Never Never side by Leah, without Harry's knowledge. Why couldn't Merlin have been doing a lot of the work in the Never Never when constructing the Island?
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The books have been completely vague on this. What makes you so sure? Harry's home for example was protected from the Never Never side by Leah, without Harry's knowledge. Why couldn't Merlin have been doing a lot of the work in the Never Never when constructing the Island?
Negligible, DR exists IN reality. It's existence as a physical place/magical construct are it's resultant 'creation. Unless other event's/layers become apparent that's the one i'm counting... and I'm not so sure his actions didn't sync the other side automatically to what it became/is anyway. What if like Marcones bank the other side was just waiting for a connection?
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Negligible, DR exists IN reality. connection?
The Island does, the holding place of the things down below is not so certain to be in reality.
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In not so certain that Merlin created the entire demonreach prison. I think he ended up encapsulating demonreach prison around some of the already locked up inmates. So, there is a prison that predates merlins construction.
As to the argument about Merlin creating demonreach at different times all at once with the assumption that it is a single timeline really doesn't make sense. I mean, I'm known for out there time travel theories but for this to be true it exceeds my out there theories by far. My theories are typically a single time loop, not loop to the fifth power. This is why parallel realities are needed. We didn't know much about parallel realities but we were introduced to them in the same book that Bob models Merlin creating demonreach. There very well may be realities that spun off where Merlin didn't create demonreach. We are restricted to a set of realities so far where it has been created.
A side note. In amber, amberites can actually choose shadowworlds and have them be at a time, define by their imagination. So say Merlin is an appetite or is working with one, he can choose a parallel earth that looks as if it was 1000 years ago, but it isn't time travel into the past, it is just a world that ticks slower or was made after another. So we have another option where Merlin chooses 5parallel worlds at different stages of time to create his demonreach prison. It is only created once on each world. But Merlin creates all of this at the same time.
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In not so certain that Merlin created the entire demonreach prison. I think he ended up encapsulating demonreach prison around some of the already locked up inmates. So, there is a prison that predates merlins construction.
Yeah. The Island itself is on Earth but the magic woven around it could have been done on Earth, and different planes in the NeverNever. Considering the nature of the things locked up it would make sense that the NeverNever would have spells too. I mean if it didn't they would have a back door escape so to speak. The reason Harry didn't get killed was as I pointed out before, Leah had protected his home from the NeverNever.
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The Island does, the holding place of the things down below is not so certain to be in reality.
That's not tenable, it shows no direct travel to the NN and Harry in the first room after the staircase(in the prison proper) was still in the mortal realm, in fact Mab was still in the mortal realm when she stayed with him as her power stayed with her.(See SK, Aurora and Elaine's convo on trying to kill Harry)
Always considered trapping them inside reality to be the whole point, it prevents them from manifesting elsewhere but leaves their power/balance inside the mortal realm.
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Yeah. The Island itself is on Earth but the magic woven around it could have been done on Earth, and different planes in the NeverNever. Considering the nature of the things locked up it would make sense that the NeverNever would have spells too. I mean if it didn't they would have a back door escape so to speak. The reason Harry didn't get killed was as I pointed out before, Leah had protected his home from the NeverNever.
Might be the outer gates you describe there.... or just the Dreamland entrance (from Tibet?)
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Snip:
As to the argument about Merlin creating demonreach at different times all at once with the assumption that it is a single timeline really doesn't make sense. I mean, I'm known for out there time travel theories but for this to be true it exceeds my out there theories by far. My theories are typically a single time loop, not loop to the fifth power. This is why parallel realities are needed. We didn't know much about parallel realities but we were introduced to them in the same book that Bob models Merlin creating demonreach. There very well may be realities that spun off where Merlin didn't create demonreach. We are restricted to a set of realities so far where it has been created.
But, raidem, that's part of the whole deal. Merlin is an uberWizard, so far beyond that even Bob can't totally grasp what happened. It's quantum physics magic: if you understand it, you really don't understand it.
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Also, Bob showed Harry that time passed between events occurring in the same place. He showed trees growing and dying. Why do all that if it was a different island with different trees in a different timeline?
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The trees bit is essentially stating time passes.
The same location can be on 5different worlds at 5different Times. I really do believe parallel realities are going to be part of how Merlin created demonreach.
One fallback, though. It seems like each layered spells was building on top of each other, but the bowtie was the all at once.
We do know that demonreach had to dumb it down for Bob. So Bob's model about Merlin creating demonreach isn't necessarily exact or everything.
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That's not tenable, it shows no direct travel to the NN and Harry in the first room after the staircase(in the prison proper) was still in the mortal realm, in fact Mab was still in the mortal realm when she stayed with him as her power stayed with her.(See SK, Aurora and Elaine's convo on trying to kill Harry)
Always considered trapping them inside reality to be the whole point, it prevents them from manifesting elsewhere but leaves their power/balance inside the mortal realm.
The cave ceiling a thousand feet below ground level being full of tree roots that Harry narratively lampshades as being impossible under the conventional rules of nature is a pretty big hint there's something else going on with the cave. The stairwell down below and the barrier to the "minimum security" anteroom both pretty much melted out of previously solid material - that's plenty of opportunity for Alfred opening a gate so skillfully that Harry can't even tell it is a gate (another thing he's lampshaded the real pros being able to do).
I don't really buy that it's in the Nevernever either, though. Your reason that Mab was causing the long winter in Chicago by her presence in the cave taking care of Harry in GS is one solid point. Another is that it doesn't really fit with the surface reflecting onto some super-lethal patch of the NN, and putting supernatural supermax right in the Nevernever doesn't seem all that secure against some ungodly powerful creature of the spirit realm deciding to jailbreak its buddy by brute force either. Mainly, though, what seals it for me is that Harry didn't melt and die shortly after returning to Chicago because of all the cells that had been built on being fed intravenously by the tree roots reverting to ectoplasm.
I'm betting it's some sort of weird pocket dimension that Merlin made. Loosely related to how Bob said Harry could create a demesne within the NN if he wanted to invest sufficient effort, but Merlin's much more advanced technique let him put it in between worlds instead.
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but what else did he do?
All this talk about making Demonreach, and rereading the bits in Cold Days to research the subject, led me to another thought that relates to this. Maybe it's come up before, but I don't recall it, so...
Was the Ladies' attack on Demonreach really the extent of the temporal attack? They just used time dilation to make their spell hit at multiple times?
It feels like the whole "throwing the rock" analogy was wasted on what ended up being an attack that took place immediately before the explosion.
There were three barges set to attack, and the attack from the Ladies, for a total of four.
But what if there was a fifth? What if Maeve also attacked during Proven Guilty, sending energy forward to land simultaneously with her planned future attack?
It'd fit the thrown stone analogy, it'd give Harry something to do while there, it'd link the two times we saw time dilation, and it'd explain how Mab knew when the trigger had to be pulled on Maeve's last redemption offer.
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The rock throw and hit had to be on essentially within hours of each other per vadderung. There did seem to be a big source of energy but I thought it was the tapped demonreach leyline.
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The cave ceiling a thousand feet below ground level being full of tree roots that Harry narratively lampshades as being impossible under the conventional rules of nature is a pretty big hint there's something else going on with the cave. The stairwell down below and the barrier to the "minimum security" anteroom both pretty much melted out of previously solid material - that's plenty of opportunity for Alfred opening a gate so skillfully that Harry can't even tell it is a gate (another thing he's lampshaded the real pros being able to do).
I don't really buy that it's in the Nevernever either, though. Your reason that Mab was causing the long winter in Chicago by her presence in the cave taking care of Harry in GS is one solid point. Another is that it doesn't really fit with the surface reflecting onto some super-lethal patch of the NN, and putting supernatural supermax right in the Nevernever doesn't seem all that secure against some ungodly powerful creature of the spirit realm deciding to jailbreak its buddy by brute force either. Mainly, though, what seals it for me is that Harry didn't melt and die shortly after returning to Chicago because of all the cells that had been built on being fed intravenously by the tree roots reverting to ectoplasm.
I'm betting it's some sort of weird pocket dimension that Merlin made. Loosely related to how Bob said Harry could create a demesne within the NN if he wanted to invest sufficient effort, but Merlin's much more advanced technique let him put it in between worlds instead.
Technically, I agree entirely. But for simplicities sake I wasn't going to add that variable to my own deduction because it just get's more confusing...
But how about... DR is on earth and at it's center it reaches through to the NN sanctum like it's an active portal between the two? i'd already considered the idea for something else.
*what I mean to say is inside the prison, Reality and NN overlap each other in existence.
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But what if there was a fifth? What if Maeve also attacked during Proven Guilty, sending energy forward to land simultaneously with her planned future attack?
It'd fit the thrown stone analogy, it'd give Harry something to do while there, it'd link the two times we saw time dilation, and it'd explain how Mab knew when the trigger had to be pulled on Maeve's last redemption offer.
I'd be happy with that, though as Raidem pointed out, the amount of energy involved required closer temporal proximity, according to Odin (Woden? Wodanaz? Vadderung lacks familiarity, so I've often wondered why he doesn't present himself as Odin—don't the old gods gain in power by spreading stories about themselves? Or am I confusing Vadderung with Wednesday again? Guhll-dang-it, I read too much).
Still, I could actually see Maeve in Proven Guilty traveling forward in time to augment her future attack on Demonreach, and Harry being forced to stop it from happening.
Alternately, and to possibly make it fit with Vadderung's explanation, Maeve was attacking from Proven Guilty's timeline (while Mab was distracted with other things and Lea was on ice) at a point in Demonreach's timeline that was within a few hours of the Cold Days events. So yes, the attack is coming from within a day of the events, but the punch is being thrown years in advance.
It always bothered me why Maeve and Lily waited to do their assault until Harry was alive and kicking. It never made any sense. Why not do it while Harry was a ghost (I get it, Mab was on the island), but they've had years to do it from BEFORE Harry was even the Warden. I've always kind of assumed that Harry claiming Demonreach and personifying the island's genuis loci made it stronger (cuz now it has a Warden), but also made it vulnerable, since now it's a physical thing that can be assaulted, if that makes sense.
Even if you accept that it had to be done on Halloween (because Maeve also wanted to kill Lily, or the attack required it for some other technical reason), there were several Halloweens' worth of missed chances, and a few shots at it before Harry was awake.
Therefore, I propose the following:
1. Maeve saw that Demonreach would have a Warden in the future. This would allow an assault to actually have a chance to succeed.
2. Maeve's infection was discovered by Mab somewhere around Proven Guilty. I believe she was outed by Lea during one of her lucid periods.
3. Maeve, realizing that she wouldn't have much of a chance to do something as big as blowing up Demonreach with Mab looking over her shoulder so closely all the time, hatched a plan to hit Demonreach from multiple points.
4. With Mab distracted by the events of Proven Guilty, Maeve took her chance and sent her attack, whatever form it took.
5. This locked Maeve into her tight timeline; she had to initiate her other attack within a certain timeframe of the one she had sent, so she manipulated events as best she could in order to keep the Warden dead. She thought she might've succeeded until he showed back up in Arctis Tor, but by then it was too late to change her plans.
6. Cold Days happens.
I think that might work, but what do I know?
Also... who summoned He Who Walks Before? Did we ever get an answer to that? Because I sure as heck don't remember it.
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Say Demonreach was built on 5 parallel realities exactly the same except for the time at which Merlin lays down the foundations for the prison. The foundations of the prison are done at different times in reference to a standard timeline. But they are synced such that the spells interlace, resonate at nearly the same time.
To undo Demonreach, one option is to go back in time and prevent Merlin laying down the foundations at anypoint in time or parallel reality. I don't think there is enough power to undue this act as you first have to fight against conservation of history, then you have to fight against metaphysically significant events, and then you have to fight against Odin's admonition of the high price of traveling back in time to change the past with huge unknowns resulting in such an event. There also would likely be huge temporal waves warning people of the impending attack. So, that wasn't what occurred.
Next, what likely happened was something in a close to parallel reality to our Dresdenverse time that got attacked. Since Demonreach was created in say 5 times, I think their is a clock for each of these times/parallel realities starting off at the point of Demonreach's creation. In other words, five parallel worlds are/were perfectly aligned time wise at the moment of Demonreach creation. So when 200 years passes, time on each of the parallel worlds could be 600AD, 800AD, 1000AD, 1200AD, 1400AD, 1600AD depending upon the date of it's creation. So since Demonreach was attacked in our reality in 2014ish, it would need to be attacked in the other realities on staggered dates in the 5 realities in total possibly all at once.
It always bothered me why Maeve and Lily waited to do their assault until Harry was alive and kicking. It never made any sense. Why not do it while Harry was a ghost (I get it, Mab was on the island), but they've had years to do it from BEFORE Harry was even the Warden. I've always kind of assumed that Harry claiming Demonreach and personifying the island's genuis loci made it stronger (cuz now it has a Warden), but also made it vulnerable, since now it's a physical thing that can be assaulted, if that makes sense.
Even if you accept that it had to be done on Halloween (because Maeve also wanted to kill Lily, or the attack required it for some other technical reason), there were several Halloweens' worth of missed chances, and a few shots at it before Harry was awake.
Therefore, I propose the following:
First, I think Demonreach had to be awakened in order for it to be made vulnerable. So Harry had to claim Demonreach in Turn Coat before the Cold Days attack was even possible. Next, I think Harry's unique nature of being Starborn, Warden, and being vulnerable to Winter Lady is what was the pivotal pieces Outsiders needed before Cold Day's attack could commence. There are other likely required setups that needed to occur. I like the idea that the Cold Days attack had already attacked and was completed at least in one reality already, so the main events were fairly set in stone. So, the Cold Days attack we viewed was in a staggered parallel reality where a 'future' Cold Days plot had already occurred in our favor but may have played out in some ways differently. This makes in some sense our Cold Days a clean up operation and gives new light on Vadderung's comment to Harry "Maybe you already have" in answering Harry's question "Can I do this?"
This then allows for plots in some other staggered realities to occur. But, I think it's fairly safe to assume that once Demonreach is safe in one parallel reality, it likely is in all unless the Outsiders attempted to redo the attack by traveling back in time or choosing a different parallel reality to make the push into. (That is if Demonreach can even be undone by attacking it in only one parallel reality.) If it can't be undone once an assault fails in one staggered reality, then the Outsiders plan isn't really the destruction of Demonreach after that but to maximize the destruction short of it, like having the Warden release all of it's Prisoners voluntarily by having Maeve command Harry to release them.
As to PG and Cold Days, I think there will end up being a link between the two and another book will start tying each and it together. I think we will learn more about the importance of those individuals that ended up at Arctis Tor in PG. Murphy, Molly, Charity, Thomas, Lash, Lasciel via Lash, Harry. We already know the importance of Molly and Harry; though we will likely learn more.
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Haven't read every post but will ask a few questions.
1. Why the time period of Proven Guilty?
2. What is the expected outcome?
3. Can Harry go against the time conservation principle?
4. How can he time travel?
My guess about how he time travels is he will use the Lay line, or one of the prisoners on the Island.
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Haven't read every post but will ask a few questions.
1. Why the time period of Proven Guilty?
2. What is the expected outcome?
3. Can Harry go against the time conservation principle?
4. How can he time travel?
My guess about how he time travels is he will use the Lay line, or one of the prisoners on the Island.
1 Not the only one I see, but... cause Molly and her future always directly effected Harry and his own?
2 What would have happened without the event's of PG, esp the GK time travel plot? Molly and Harry on the run for their lives is the greatest probability I think.
3 Bob specifically explained how to do so. The thing your trying to avoid is actually violating free choice while doing your TT.
4 Lotsa ways, but or this one i'll go with LC, it creates a thaumaturgic connection in the future to the past when it was 100% accurate. the energy build up in one spot was someone coming through it. This is actually two fold, it causes the need for LC to be fixed, and since Harry would never have tried to use it without the GK's message he would not have originally died in the attempt(this is them fixing the conservation method to prevent paradox/splitting). Farther, in the original, he had time to wait and had eventually come to rely upon Lasciel when he ultimately did use it. This is a big point in the books, he admits he wouldn't try it if it wasn't necessary(which it wasn't anyway but ;p go figure)
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3. Can Harry go against the time conservation principle?
I've been thinking about this quite a bit with regards to Proven Guilty, and I'm not sure that the Rule of Conservation of History will (necessarily) apply here, at least in the grand scheme of things; I think that Dresden, heading back to Proven Guilty, already helped shape the events of Proven Guilty, so Time Travel Harry's presence is already part of this "history." Because the books only ever detail the already-changed timeline, I think that the only danger to Conservation of History is if Harry doesn't go back. Basically, I think that Harry had created a stable time loop, and any adventure into the past will reveal that he had already changed it. This may manifest itself as Harry preserving the timeline as best he can while someone is running around trying to muck it up, and inadvertently causing some of the events of Proven Guilty.
Does that make sense to anyone else, or am I just talking out of my posterior?
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I've been thinking about this quite a bit with regards to Proven Guilty, and I'm not sure that the Rule of Conservation of History will (necessarily) apply here, at least in the grand scheme of things; I think that Dresden, heading back to Proven Guilty, already helped shape the events of Proven Guilty, so Time Travel Harry's presence is already part of this "history." Because the books only ever detail the already-changed timeline, I think that the only danger to Conservation of History is if Harry doesn't go back. Basically, I think that Harry had created a stable time loop, and any adventure into the past will reveal that he had already changed it. This may manifest itself as Harry preserving the timeline as best he can while someone is running around trying to muck it up, and inadvertently causing some of the events of Proven Guilty.
Does that make sense to anyone else, or am I just talking out of my posterior?
Makes Total Sense. Think Harry Potter 3 (Prisoner of Azkaban). Harry P's dad didn't show up. It was Harry P.
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I've been thinking about this quite a bit with regards to Proven Guilty, and I'm not sure that the Rule of Conservation of History will (necessarily) apply here, at least in the grand scheme of things; I think that Dresden, heading back to Proven Guilty, already helped shape the events of Proven Guilty, so Time Travel Harry's presence is already part of this "history." Because the books only ever detail the already-changed timeline, I think that the only danger to Conservation of History is if Harry doesn't go back. Basically, I think that Harry had created a stable time loop, and any adventure into the past will reveal that he had already changed it. This may manifest itself as Harry preserving the timeline as best he can while someone is running around trying to muck it up, and inadvertently causing some of the events of Proven Guilty.
Does that make sense to anyone else, or am I just talking out of my posterior?
Well, since we are already going with this as the set up explanation. I'll say there has already been a stable time loop back in time in which Murphy ascended to Mab. So, there isn't much danger to 'conservation of history' as long as Murphy does go back to ascend to be Mab.
Hmm. Maybe there will be a Murphy that ascends to become Mab during Proven Guilty somewhere in some parallel reality. Murphy could ascend to become 1000+ years ago, during Proven Guilty, around the time of Cold Days, or sometime in teh future. These would be events in our reality or parallel realities in which Mab was potentially 'vulnerable.'
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About the missing Fae book: Good catch, but it doesn't seem like a book is missing. From Small Favor, page 24 on Nook:
To me, the exchange indicates that Dresden knows there's an entry in one of the books, but not which one, so he's doing broad research with things that are available to him. The outlier is the Calvin and Hobbes book. Harry eventually finds the entry on the eighth one, so it doesn't look like anything is missing.
I had misspoke, before- what I actually meant to say is that a time-traveler took some OTHER book, not related to Gruffs. Maybe he needed a book, but didn't want a gap in the spines to show, and so used a different one?
Not sure, to be honest. However, I do think that a time traveler is responsible for that book there. It's not like Harry is reading Calvin and Hobbes down in his lab, nor would he store the book there!
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I had misspoke, before- what I actually meant to say is that a time-traveler took some OTHER book, not related to Gruffs. Maybe he needed a book, but didn't want a gap in the spines to show, and so used a different one?
Not sure, to be honest. However, I do think that a time traveler is responsible for that book there. It's not like Harry is reading Calvin and Hobbes down in his lab, nor would he store the book there!
I think it's Bonnie's:
I think Bonnie came with him. She hasn't graduated to trashy romance novels yet; she's still on comics. And she would've been able to help Harry remember what the specific flaws were.
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I think Bonnie came with him. She hasn't graduated to trashy romance novels yet; she's still on comics. And she would've been able to help Harry remember what the specific flaws were.
That sounds plausible. Makes more sense then bringing Maggie along, too; Bonnie can contribute in a meaningful fashion.
But, you know, why bring Bonnie and not Bob? (Well, obviously, something's going to happen that makes Bonnie a better, or indeed the only . . . Oh. Oh, no.)
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Bonnie likely see's more of existence than Bob does being born from angelic roots, she probably see's the 'faith-length' and it's attributes easier. Like space/time...
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That sounds plausible. Makes more sense then bringing Maggie along, too; Bonnie can contribute in a meaningful fashion.
But, you know, why bring Bonnie and not Bob? (Well, obviously, something's going to happen that makes Bonnie a better, or indeed the only . . . Oh. Oh, no.)
Nothing so complicated. Bob is with Butters now. Harry has Bonnie.
And Maggie going along certainly seems like a Longshot. But it'd be interesting.
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And Maggie going along certainly seems like a Longshot. But it'd be interesting.
I could see Jim making it an accidental time travel when maybe Harry has Maggie on the island. And now not only does Harry have to sneak and hid from himself he also has to do so with Mouse and Maggie in tow.
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I could see Jim making it an accidental time travel when maybe Harry has Maggie on the island. And now not only does Harry have to sneak and hid from himself he also has to do so with Mouse and Maggie in tow.
That's what I was thinking. That Demonreach would be the origin of the time travel method, and she'd accidentally be sent back as well because she was hiding in the cottage or something. But the odds of that happening in a believable fashion during a planned time travel event seem low.
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I'm listening to Proven Guilty now. And I just got reminded of Harry and Mab's talk in the elevator after visiting with Nicodemus in Skin Game. The parallel is Harry and Murphy's talk in the elevator at the hospital. It makes me somewhat wonder if Harry will bring along Murphy in his time travel trip back to Proven Guilty. Maybe even this future Murphy is at times who Harry interacts with. That or Mab speaks to Harry via Murphy. Mab/Murphy time travels into the past to participate in PG. Etc. Etc.
So, a Mab in one parallel reality requests the services of another reality's Mab to deal with a situation that strictly confined/limited Mab's ability to act. She gets around it by bringing in another Mab, a destined Mab, a Winter Lady, a destined Winter Lady, or herself all accompanied by the Winter Knight.
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Snip:
But, raidem, that's part of the whole deal. Merlin is an uberWizard, so far beyond that even Bob can't totally grasp what happened. It's quantum physics magic: if you understand it, you really don't understand it.
Speak for yourself.