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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on December 28, 2017, 09:33:45 PM

Title: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on December 28, 2017, 09:33:45 PM
I realize this board is for discussion about Dresden Files.  There however is links between DF and Star Wars in the role of hidden familial relationships and ongoing allusions to the Star Wars universe within the Dresden Files.  So, going forward any discussion about the movie and speculation concerning it will be spoiled and I ask that you include spoiler tags too to safeguard the errant wanderer that doesn't get the clue in the title.

So, here goes my theory:
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Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Snark Knight on December 28, 2017, 11:33:32 PM
You've actually seen TLJ, right? The parentage question was answered in the actual movie.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 29, 2017, 12:17:28 AM
For many, the answer was found to be lacking.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on December 29, 2017, 12:32:35 AM
Yeah. You actually believed it [that the parentage question was answered]?  I don't buy it. 

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Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 29, 2017, 12:57:47 AM
I am not saying I believe it. In fact, I don't want to believe it. It goes against the grain of Star Wars being the Skywalker saga. But, I suspect that it will be so in order to appease certain non-plot related needs.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on December 29, 2017, 01:13:18 AM
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I stumbled on an article about the expanded universe and new movies.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/what-the-force-awakens-borrowed-from-the-old-star-wars-1749328107

Read this.  As someone who is familiar with EU cited in the passage, it's why I'm still speculating about her parents and not accepting the answer that others do in The Last Jedi.
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So, Disney is do some mixing and matching and some distractions right now to keep us off guard as they role out their movie where people who have read the expanded universe may already have an idea of where they are going, because it's already gone there before.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on December 29, 2017, 03:34:40 AM
Spoilers. The big bad in the Expanded Universe is a 100,000 year old lady named...

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Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sully on December 29, 2017, 05:55:09 AM
Or maybe both disney and star wars EU are both full of mediocrity and clumsily used tropes?

Neither IP is known for their subtlety or respect for canon & continuity here.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kindler on December 29, 2017, 02:04:56 PM
Honestly, I was so disappointed in the movie that I didn't even care about Rey's parentage being "answered." Whether it's true or not to me, functionally, is meaningless. After this movie failed to provide any sort of payoff from events built up in The Force Awakens, all I can say is that the next one better be written by someone competent.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on December 29, 2017, 03:04:12 PM
Yeah, I hope there is more of a spark to this next movie.

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Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rasins on December 29, 2017, 04:24:50 PM
And what was the deal at the end, where the two little boys were telling the story of the battle between Luke and Ben, then showing one of them going out to sweep and using the force?

I think that could totally be a hint that there are lots of force users out there that are not getting trained, but could be gathered.

Also, I believe that ...

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Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: WereElephant on December 29, 2017, 04:38:37 PM
Curious to know what Harry, Molly, Thomas, and Butters think of the new movies. And the franchise as a whole.

I'm guessing Harry and Butters are original trilogy sticklers who refuse to acknowledge the prequels, though Butters is up on pre-Phantom Menace Expanded Universe. And despite anything Harry says, I bet he thinks the Ewoks were cute, to Thomas' and Butters' disgust.

Thomas, despite his disdain for the portrayal, feels something of a sympathy with prequel Anakin, always being tempted by a darker side, but also a contempt for his weakness at dealing with it. He has only seen the movies and the Clone Wars animated series.

Molly enjoys all of it, understanding that just because it has imperfections doesn't mean it should be condemned. I'm hoping she brings some Star Wars-esque beings into the Winter Court.

None of them like Porgs.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rasins on December 29, 2017, 05:06:52 PM
Curious to know what Harry, Molly, Thomas, and Butters think of the new movies. And the franchise as a whole.

I'm guessing Harry and Butters are original trilogy sticklers who refuse to acknowledge the prequels, though Butters is up on pre-Phantom Menace Expanded Universe. And despite anything Harry says, I bet he thinks the Ewoks were cute, to Thomas' and Butters' disgust.

Thomas, despite his disdain for the portrayal, feels something of a sympathy with prequel Anakin, always being tempted by a darker side, but also a contempt for his weakness at dealing with it. He has only seen the movies and the Clone Wars animated series.

Molly enjoys all of it, understanding that just because it has imperfections doesn't mean it should be condemned. I'm hoping she brings some Star Wars-esque beings into the Winter Court.

None of them like Porgs.

I don't understand why everyone was so down on the Porgs.

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Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kindler on December 29, 2017, 08:23:08 PM
I don't understand why everyone was so down on the Porgs.

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Personally, I found their presence to be overused. It's the type of RANDOMM XD humor that is currently popular but I find annoying. A couple of scenes are fine, but they were basically Chewbacca's entire character arc in the movie.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on December 29, 2017, 09:59:48 PM
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And what was the deal at the end, where the two little boys were telling the story of the battle between Luke and Ben, then showing one of them going out to sweep and using the force?
I think that could totally be a hint that there are lots of force users out there that are not getting trained, but could be gathered.
Yeah, the expanded universe never really force users as being all that rare.  I mean in the movies you'd think Luke, Lea, Vader, Emperor, Obiwan, etc were the only ones who were force users/potentials. In the EU, there are many force communities out there in the galaxy, with many people having some, medium, and strong strengths in the force.

Oh, and I can't wait to see DJ next time. (DJ Don't Join - the Codebreaker)
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Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Avernite on December 29, 2017, 10:35:53 PM
Eh, I see plenty of opportunity for both the film to have the correct answer and be utterly misleading:

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Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: groinkick on December 30, 2017, 12:39:28 AM
Speaking of Star Wars has anyone seen the evidence that Jar Jar was supposed to be a Sith, possibly Palpatines master in the prequels?  This youtube video is somewhat convincing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yy3q9f84EA

(http://country929.com/files/2015/12/jar-jar-binks-a-sith.jpg)
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on December 30, 2017, 03:18:20 AM
Haha. No. 

I could see though, in line with some of what I've said before, that Jar Jar's 'clumsiness' is part of an innate force talent.  Though the point at which he stops being clumsy is a clue that he has then become vulnerable and made into Palpatine's tool or he becomes deadly serious and cautious.  In the books, Palpatine's master was still alive and active during the Phantom Menace despite Palpatine believing him dead.

It be pretty cool to find Jar Jar Binks come back to us as a wizened jedi/sith.

If you draw back the curtains far enough in the expanded universe, you have Abeloth in cycles breaking free of her prison manipulating events more until she is once more fully imprisoned.  These cycles correspond with the rise and falls of the Sith and Jedi. Abeloth is imprisoned within the MAW, a group of black holes near which there exists a tight passage to a safe spot within a center of gravity of the cluster.  The MAW is part of the created prison complex near the Kessel system and it is this black hole cluster (MAW) that Han Solo and others talk about when they allude to the Kessel Run.  They have to get close but not to close.  So that's it!!! Maybe the Kessel Run, the Maw, and Han's boast about it being 12 parsecs will be relevant in the next movie.  They will uncover a secret passage into the MAW installation. (The expanded universe already went there).
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: groinkick on December 30, 2017, 06:04:20 AM
Haha. No. 

I could see though, in line with some of what I've said before, that Jar Jar's 'clumsiness' is part of an innate force talent.  Though the point at which he stops being clumsy is a clue that he has then become vulnerable and made into Palpatine's tool or he becomes deadly serious and cautious.  In the books, Palpatine's master was still alive and active during the Phantom Menace despite Palpatine believing him dead.

It be pretty cool to find Jar Jar Binks come back to us as a wizened jedi/sith.

If you draw back the curtains far enough in the expanded universe, you have Abeloth in cycles breaking free of her prison manipulating events more until she is once more fully imprisoned.  These cycles correspond with the rise and falls of the Sith and Jedi. Abeloth is imprisoned within the MAW, a group of black holes near which there exists a tight passage to a safe spot within a center of gravity of the cluster.  The MAW is part of the created prison complex near the Kessel system and it is this black hole cluster (MAW) that Han Solo and others talk about when they allude to the Kessel Run.  They have to get close but not to close.  So that's it!!! Maybe the Kessel Run, the Maw, and Han's boast about it being 12 parsecs will be relevant in the next movie.  They will uncover a secret passage into the MAW installation. (The expanded universe already went there).

Have any theories on George Lucas saying Jar Jar was the key to everything?
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on December 30, 2017, 04:12:53 PM
Well, did he mean anything much by it?

Let's say there is meaning there. Crazy wag time. But first background.

First,
Abeloth or something similar is locked up in the maw.
The ones are force like entities represented by tarot cards father, mother, son, daughter, servant.
Mother went missing, mortal Servant filled in mother's role.  Servant grew afraid of her death so drank of forbidden pools of knowledge gaining immortality but turning her into dark side creature abeloth. Son and daughter, brother and sister, duty then becomes to keep servant imprisoned within the maw.

Vader uses a particular weapon to kill the ones, brother and sister. And abeloth is now nearly, if not fully, free. I found a website that better describes everything but I'm on my kindle so can't link it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Ones

Crazy wag:
Jar jar comes onstage to represent the ones, or is representing abeloth.  I'm more inclined to go with the idea that jar jar is or becomes a representative of the ones.  In the books, the Sith are the ones who are unknowingly representing abeloth.  So, she is the true phantom menace that is alluded to in the title.

In conclusion, jar jar binks is or becomes a representative of the Father who tasked him with locating, verifying the chosen one who would bring balance to the force.  Jar jar is following this path that will ultimately lead to abeloths destruction for good though there were many casualties along the way. He set Palpatine up to finally reveal himself.

Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: jonas on December 30, 2017, 07:27:54 PM
So... having not yet seen tlj I didn't think to have much to say, however, I was wrong lol.(which means i'm not bothering with spoiler tags btw)
First the whole restore balance and destroy the sith thing, he did. He did destroy the Sith when he betrayed the emperor, and when a whole bunch of light exists but no darkness, there isn't balance. Stop looking at it through the jedi's now obvious stupidity on what is balance. He reset the balance pretty well.
Ok so, most of the expanded universe is down the trash shute, which... things HAVE been known to survive.. but still. New canonical novel 'origins of the Jedii' is an absolute must for understanding some things reference though, Ashara and Bogan represent the light and the dark respectively, they are considered the incarnations of it in the old school before the split jedii who knew that you have to stay suspended between the light and the dark and not sway to either, true balance.(this also appears in other new works, in the clone wars cartoon(iirc) a being tells a jedi HE is Ashara and Bogan because he knows balance and the jedi does not.
Combine this with raidem's offhand reference about something in the force and the simple mention of snoke(in trailer, of darkness rises and light to meet it) leads me to believe perhaps.. just maybe, Ashara and Bogan were two very dynamically opposing force users who became the first two and most powerful force ghosts and have been mucking about with everyone else who uses it ever since...?
actually kinda hope not cause that would be too damn reminiscent of my DF theories.. The circle would be complete, those who were originally copied from have now become the copiers...
*which might make the resurgence of 'twins' Ashara and Bogan reborn, again and again(which would make the Novel have another hidden meaning, as it
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Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Snark Knight on January 01, 2018, 01:52:35 AM
I am not saying I believe it. In fact, I don't want to believe it. It goes against the grain of Star Wars being the Skywalker saga. But, I suspect that it will be so in order to appease certain non-plot related needs.

I wasn't really comfortable with the 'nobody important' answer either, given that #7 hinted so strongly that her parentage was significant somehow. But if they reverse that again in 9, it's going to come across as just cheap writing to keep changing their minds. It's possible Ren was lying or wrong (say, not recognizing a son or daughter of Kenobi as significant, making Rey his granddaughter), and it's not like 8 wasn't already pretty full of cheap and inconsistent writing, but I'd be kind of surprised if they change tracks again on this issue.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 01, 2018, 02:00:32 AM
I wanted to love it; but, I kept seeing more socio-political points and less plot points.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 01, 2018, 02:49:30 AM
I just read more about jar jar.

He has made a return to naboo as a clown in a book that is Canon. He is trying to make people happy. He knows he made mistakes. And the people of naboo have ostracized him but the kids like him, thus he is a clown.

I think there is other sources that have Palpatine sending him off to an undisclosed location.  And I think those same sources have him going on several missions with Jedi etc and doing well so he could very well have learned much in politics and fighting missions since we have seen him last.

Palpatine had a contingency plan in case of his own death and it involved jakku, specifically blowing up the planet while both empire and republic forces were fighting near it.  And then having a remnant go to the unknown regions.
He also wanted many planets scorched including naboo. If the empire couldn't protect him, it didn't deserve to live.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: groinkick on January 01, 2018, 04:34:07 AM
I wanted to love it; but, I kept seeing more socio-political points and less plot points.

Unfortunately it appears that the nerds last refuge (Star Wars, new Star Trek series, Ghostbusters, certain comic book related things) have been hijacked for this purpose, and it's sad.  As a nerd I enjoyed a magical world to get away from the stresses of the real world only to find even my fantasy worlds are now being infringed on.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: groinkick on January 01, 2018, 04:37:51 AM
I just read more about jar jar.

He has made a return to naboo as a clown in a book that is Canon. He is trying to make people happy. He knows he made mistakes. And the people of naboo have ostracized him but the kids like him, thus he is a clown.

Well the theory that I posted the link to it's believed Lucas pulled out of the Jar Jar being a sith because of the fan backlash against him.  People just could not stand the character.  Lucas saying that Jar Jar was the key to everything, and Jar Jar being from the same planet as Palpatine along with all the other stuff I think is convincing.  I think Jar Jar was supposed to the be the dark sides Yoda...  Weird, funny, unsuspecting until you realize the real power, and evil behind him.  I think a lot of subtle hints were dropped as the video suggests so that only after the truth is revealed, fans could go back and see the logic of it.  Like Jar Jar standing beside Palpatine at the funeral...  That shot was very similar to shots of Palpatine and Vader.   

(https://oja.la/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/palpatine_jar.jpg)

(https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.e__CAp_5Ve6NwERA1JHjbQHaDJ&pid=Api)

I don't really think that the positions of Jar Jar/Palpatine and on the opposite side is Obiwan/Anakin with the princess stuck in the middle (anakins future love interest and reason for him going dark side) is an accident.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 01, 2018, 08:37:32 AM
Unfortunately it appears that the nerds last refuge (Star Wars, new Star Trek series, Ghostbusters, certain comic book related things) have been hijacked for this purpose, and it's sad.  As a nerd I enjoyed a magical world to get away from the stresses of the real world only to find even my fantasy worlds are now being infringed on.
Well said, groinkick, well said. It makes me feel old and stained that that which I loved when I was younger has become a part of someone else's force-fed message.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 01, 2018, 03:42:24 PM
In the expanded universe, Jar Jar Binks was a senator allied with Palpatine.  Palpatine often sent him on missions or Binks went on missions.

One such mission has him:
While attempting to escape, Binks accidentally destroyed Amidala's yacht with a magnetic crane; ruining their chance to contact for help. He donned a Jedi robe Amidala had stored in her back closet, which led the droids to mistake him for a Jedi.

I think Jar Jar turns out to be an untrained natural Jedi that learns while on missions among Jedi.  I now need to watch the animated tv star wars series clone wars.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: groinkick on January 01, 2018, 06:44:42 PM
In the expanded universe, Jar Jar Binks was a senator allied with Palpatine.  Palpatine often sent him on missions or Binks went on missions.

One such mission has him:
While attempting to escape, Binks accidentally destroyed Amidala's yacht with a magnetic crane; ruining their chance to contact for help. He donned a Jedi robe Amidala had stored in her back closet, which led the droids to mistake him for a Jedi.

I think Jar Jar turns out to be an untrained natural Jedi that learns while on missions among Jedi.  I now need to watch the animated tv star wars series clone wars.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks

What they really need in the Star Wars universe is a time traveling story where in universe present day Jedi get to meet the Jedi/Sith of old.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 01, 2018, 08:32:25 PM
Lol, I was thinking of how to fit time travel into star wars.  Here it goes.  DJ, played by benicio del Toro, is a time traveling Cade Skywalker type character descended from say rey, if she is Luke's daughter, or from kylo ren.  Cade Skywalker appears 100 years after return of Jedi and is part of a story that is made into comics in expanded universe.  DJ's story will be made in early 2018 into comics.  So I'm suggesting that dj has traveled from the future to the present to assist with something in tlj and much more coming soon in star wars plots.

There.  I have now fulfilled my obligatory time travel theory and offering for star wars.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: knnn on January 02, 2018, 03:40:18 AM
Nononono, Time travelling Rey is her own mother (maybe with Ben Solo as the father each time).    That explains the weird infinite mirror sequence that otherwise did absolutely nothing for the story.   

It also explains  her amazing power -- she's building up her "genetic midicholrians" in an infinite loop until she's powerful  enough to stop time itself.   Oh, and "bring balance to the universe" whatever that means.   

See, I can write plots to Star Wars movies too.    :P
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 02, 2018, 10:13:59 AM
Ohh, I think my 5 year old son could write a Star Wars plot that equals the quality of TLJ. :P
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: knnn on January 02, 2018, 03:07:45 PM
I've always thought this one was pretty good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYNDssdsVnM

 ;)

(I could never be one of the extras in the background.  I'd be grinning ear to ear the whole time).
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Cozarkian on January 02, 2018, 04:29:40 PM
I actually had he same thought during he movie about Holding and Skywalker being Rey's parents and Luke not knowing.  I think Holdo would have returned for Rey by now if  Holdo knew Rey was on Jaku, which means Holdo must have hired someone to take Rey to safety and that person didn't return, so Holdo thinks her daughter is dead.

I hate the theory after what Holdo did, though. Either Holdo is dead and Rey didn't get a reunion, or Holdo isn't dead, which defies belief. I suspect the latter, because the new movies have had ridiculous power creep in the things that untrained novices accomplish (including both Leia and Rey) as well as the general power level of what is possible (Kylo is more powerful than Vader, Snoak than Palpatine, and dead Yoda can cause lightning strikes).

I wish it were true that Rey's parents were schoolbags and this is a maturation story that great people can ride above a disadvantaged past, but I think this will be a story of a certain bloodline (Skywalker) having special destinies.

Fear, hate and anger lead to the dark side. Rey's fear is that she isn't special and that her parents didn't love her. Kylo uses the classic dark side tactic of playing on that fear to try to convert it to hate and anger (see Vader using Luke's fear that his friends will die as lure in Empire and Palpatine the same in RotJ). Kylo told her what he thought would benefit him, not what he actually saw.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 02, 2018, 05:09:52 PM
I think there is a statement that Kylo didn't lie but that doesn't mean that he knows the whole truth either.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 02, 2018, 06:21:02 PM
Yeah. I saw that statement too. I think the statement went further in suggesting the director 'thought' it to be true at the time and so I point out the following:

It should be noted too that there is a different director for the last jedi (Rian Johnson) than who directed/will direct (J. J. Abrams) both the force awakens and the last movie of the trilogy. 

On the topic of time travel in Star Wars, I did find that time travel does exist in Star Wars and not just because of time dilation.  Most of the 'regular' time travel is because of hyperdrive malfunctions, shielding malfunctions that protects against time dilation, travel too close to intense gravity wells, etc.
The real 'time travel' occurrences I see included Mace Windu going to a particular temple to return a particular artifact that was placed in Jedi safekeeping thousands of years ago.  This ancient civilization that had died out I think long ago had a prophecy and idolized this particular hero.  Well, Mace returned this artifact to a statue that weirdly enough had a uncanny resemblance to himself.  Once he placed the artifact upon the statues outstretched hands, Mace was transported thousand+ years ago onto an ancient battlefield where he helped turn the tide of battle. At some point, he returns to his present and when he informs the Jedi Council, he is told that the Jedi were awaiting the fulfillment of this prophecy and had believed it to be him and therefore had sent him to complete the loop.

I think there are other instances of 'real' time travel too but not much.

Well, I can believe Rey is her own Mother, but that is consistent if she is a Clone but that doesn't require Time Travel.  And, I could accept that Rey will have some power over time itself per darside Mirrors. I'd adapt that ability and say she could pass that ability down to her descendants.

So, I'll apply my Murphy/Marcone theory onto Rey/DJ.  In Dresden Files, Marcone descends from Mab/Murphy with time travel in the mix where Marcone finds himself around a time of Murphy's relative 'youth'.  DJ descends from Rey with time travel in the mix where DJ returns to a time around Rey's relative 'youth'. :)

As to bringing balance to the force, I've already pointed out the big bad in the expanded universe which is now legend and not canon but may be refashioned into it again.  The big bad is Abeloth, a 100k year old female/force entity that was corrupted when she did what was forbidden. She was imprisoned within a black hole cluster where safe navigation within the cluster was extremely difficult.  She had insanely intense ability to influence the force and those using it to cause those using it to suffer force psychosis, the desire or urge to go all homicidal.  So, she is or could be an indirect cause of Luke having temporary homicidal ideation with respect to Ben, Anakin's mass murder of the Jedi on Coruscant, etc etc.  Luke's journey to the island and him cutting himself off from the force could be a way to protect himself from being influenced again by this identity that is so strong within the darkside.  It should be noted however that Abeloth bathed herself in both the 'Wellspring' of darkside and lightside of the force.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Cozarkian on January 02, 2018, 07:05:42 PM
I think there is a statement that Kylo didn't lie but that doesn't mean that he knows the whole truth either.

Interesting. I checked and according to the director, Kylo said the truth about what he saw, while the director admits he doesn't know if the last movie will add further insight.

Thus, we might still have something like Rey's parents knew she was force strong and had to sell her to try to get to the Jedi academy to find her a tutor and for some reason or another were unable to return.

Maybe they actually won't make Rey a chosen one and we will instead just have the disappointment about how poorly and unbelievably the reveal was done.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rasins on January 03, 2018, 05:13:11 PM
Can anyone explain the Sith structure, one master, one apprentice that was mentioned in Episode I?

Can there really only be 2 Sith in the entire Galaxy?
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Cozarkian on January 03, 2018, 06:16:58 PM
Can anyone explain the Sith structure, one master, one apprentice that was mentioned in Episode I?

Can there really only be 2 Sith in the entire Galaxy?

Jedi/Sith are opposed religions. Not all light side force users have to be Jedi and not all dark side users alhave to be Sith.

The always 2 comes from the practice the Sith have of internal betrayal - recall in the original trilogy Vader wanted to team up with Luke and overthrow the emperor. Layer, Palpatine tried to get Luke to kill Vader.

It isn't that there can literally only be 2, it is that the master tests potential apprentices by having then kill the current apprentice and apprentices become Masters by killing their master.

Note that Snoak appeared willing to let Rey join without killing Kylo Ren, which suggests Snoak isn't Sith.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 03, 2018, 06:35:28 PM
Quote
Can anyone explain the Sith structure, one master, one apprentice that was mentioned in Episode I?
Can there really only be 2 Sith in the entire Galaxy?

In the expanded universe, the template for Sith is one to one, Master to Apprentice mainly. There are exceptions. Before I go into some of these, I'll state that no, there is no restriction on the number of Sith in the galaxy.  Although there number tends to be low because they end up backstabbing each other in their competition for power.

Palpatine had two apprentices he played against each other. Vader and some other, I forget his name.  I'm not sure if he was a Force wielder or just adept at something else but my memory suggests he was a Sith too.  Vader ended up having a Star Destroyer shoot his shuttle down while he was approaching Coruscant. 

Later on in the expanded universe, Luke and Ben Skywalker get ambushed by a group of Sith which proves there are more than two in the galaxy.  The group of Sith try to take out Luke try to take each other out in the ambush and Luke and Ben end up surviving it.  Sometime after that in going up against Abeloth, the Jedi and Sith team up to take her out. So, I'm sure I could have done better but these examples show that there are multiple Sith in the galaxy, that there is a template for master/apprentice with Sith, and that there are also temporary exceptions for 'apprentices' to prove themselves in competition among themselves to gain/keep the master.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: groinkick on January 03, 2018, 06:52:03 PM
Can anyone explain the Sith structure, one master, one apprentice that was mentioned in Episode I?

Can there really only be 2 Sith in the entire Galaxy?

This will explain it in detail.  I believe the rule of 2 started with Darth Bane, but other Sith did not hold his belief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kb5TyWS4qA
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rasins on January 03, 2018, 07:00:58 PM
Regarding the Sith then .... how do their numbers expand?  If Vader had survived and Palpatine too, would Vader eventually become a "Master" Sith and sought out his own apprentice, and Palpatine getting another?
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 03, 2018, 07:06:23 PM
Vader would only become Master if he killed Palpatine.  Palpatine killed his Master thereby becoming the leader/Master.  Palpatine knew Vader at some point would try to kill him, that is the Sith way.

So, Vader got his promotion, switched to the lightside, and died nearly all at the same time :).
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: groinkick on January 03, 2018, 07:14:35 PM
Regarding the Sith then .... how do their numbers expand?  If Vader had survived and Palpatine too, would Vader eventually become a "Master" Sith and sought out his own apprentice, and Palpatine getting another?

Actually the way Lucas had it originally, Vader was evil.  He was not going to go light side at the end.  It was Vader vs Palpatine for Luke's loyalty.  So you could say that they both planned on killing the other, once they had Luke on their side.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: groinkick on January 03, 2018, 07:19:03 PM
Regarding the Sith then .... how do their numbers expand?  If Vader had survived and Palpatine too, would Vader eventually become a "Master" Sith and sought out his own apprentice, and Palpatine getting another?

The idea is that the fewer Sith there are, the more power they have access to.  In theory if you have a lot of Sith, there is less power to draw upon.  The rule of 2 is just that, a rule.  It's not an iron clad law.  For example Palpatine had Darth Maul, and Count Dooku, breaking the rule of 2.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 03, 2018, 07:21:34 PM
Who cares of how Lucas had it 'originally.'  I mean how many different takes, screenplays, drafts do they consider before they finally decide on final product.  It's been 30+ years how Lucas finally decided to play it out in the original trilogy.

You can see however that Palpatine in the trilogy decided to play son against father and whoever won would be his apprentice.

The rule of 2 was also protection against the Sith history of internal fratricide on steroids.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: jonas on January 03, 2018, 08:22:38 PM
Can anyone explain the Sith structure, one master, one apprentice that was mentioned in Episode I?

Can there really only be 2 Sith in the entire Galaxy?
The rule of two(which is a book of the same name iirc) was invented(iirc lol) by Darth Bane as a way to prevent the infighting and civil wars of the Sith order of earlier days. Supposed to be the apprentice surpasses and ergo kills the master and finds his own apprentice, or finds apprentice and teams up to kill master, ect.

Interesting, I feel like because of the way balance works and this new 'light rises to meet it' concept might have made the Sith stronger as they represented a larger portion of the balance. Which is a neat way to explain Palpatine's ridiculous overpowerment.
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The rule of 2 was also protection against the Sith history of internal fratricide on steroids.
THAT lol, so that...
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rasins on January 04, 2018, 06:17:36 PM
Okay, so we know that going dark can be a choice, just like living on the light side is a choice.

If  you go to the dark side, does that "automagically" make you want to kill other force users?

Isn't that kind of self-destructive for the Sith.  I mean, I know it doesn't have to make sense, but still ...
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: groinkick on January 04, 2018, 06:46:36 PM
If  you go to the dark side, does that "automagically" make you want to kill other force users?

No.  The act of going to the darkside requires really negative emotions.  So the type of person to cross over is most likely the type of person who is ambitious, violent, and paranoid.  Those are the characteristics that make them dangerous.  They aren't automatically murderers of other force users though.  For example Darth Plagus wanted an equal to rule the galaxy with.  Unfortunately for him Sidius didn't feel the same way.  Another Darth ended up being killed because he had feelings for the female he'd taken on as an apprentice, she wanted to rule though. 

Dark side users use all their emotions while light side typically do not.  Anakin went over to the dark side because of the love of a woman, and his willingness to do anything to save her, which is why Jedi aren't allowed to have to have romantic relationships. 

Once again, there were Sith in the past who wanted there to be a lot of other Sith.  It was Darth Bane who became Emperor who started the trend of only 2. 
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rasins on January 04, 2018, 07:08:23 PM
No.  The act of going to the darkside requires really negative emotions.  So the type of person to cross over is most likely the type of person who is ambitious, violent, and paranoid.  Those are the characteristics that make them dangerous.  They aren't automatically murderers of other force users though.  For example Darth Plagus wanted an equal to rule the galaxy with.  Unfortunately for him Sidius didn't feel the same way.  Another Darth ended up being killed because he had feelings for the female he'd taken on as an apprentice, she wanted to rule though. 

Dark side users use all their emotions while light side typically do not.  Anakin went over to the dark side because of the love of a woman, and his willingness to do anything to save her, which is why Jedi aren't allowed to have to have romantic relationships. 

Once again, there were Sith in the past who wanted there to be a lot of other Sith.  It was Darth Bane who became Emperor who started the trend of only 2.

So the Sith could start up a temple and start recruiting force users and training them like the Jedi did, since the Sith Emperor is now long gone?
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: groinkick on January 04, 2018, 08:11:03 PM
So the Sith could start up a temple and start recruiting force users and training them like the Jedi did, since the Sith Emperor is now long gone?

Absolutely
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 04, 2018, 10:20:24 PM
After Luke, the Jedi's and Sith defeat Abeloth, Luke comes to the conclusion that the galaxy needs both the Jedi and the Sith to maintain the balance in the force.  Abeloth existence was what had imbalanced it; her destruction, I'm assuming, is what the supposed Chosen One, Anakin, would directly/indirectly lead to. So, Anakin's family/descendants leading to the destruction of Abeloth may be the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Again, Abeloth played a large part in the force psychosis that would plague force users which often led them to go all homicidal all of a sudden.  Her manipulations of the force were largely confined until cracks in her prison began to appear, she then had more influence etc.  This was a cycle as other stronger force entities would reseal her prison.  These force entities (father, son, daughter) were immortals, celestials that are bound to the force. Apparently the chosen one, Anakin, could have power over them and with dagger of mortis could kill them or at least seem to.  Abeloth was an lady that came to the planet Mortis to learn from these celestial where she became the Servant who would later do that which was forbidden her, drink of two pools of knowledge.  The pools of knowledge were like the lightside and darkside wellsprings.  The daughter and son were each identified and associated with one, either light (daughter) or dark (son). Upon finding the Servant corrupted, the son and daughter then set out to imprison the servant. (father probably participated as well)

father, son, daughter are about 1 Million years old
servant is 100k years old
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Foxed on January 04, 2018, 11:53:07 PM
What.

What.

First of all, [suspicious]Holdo is almost certainly a lesbian[/suspicious].

Second of all, I like the implication that Rey's parents are actually [suspicious]nobodies, unimportant except someone (maybe even the Force itself!) may have used Plagueis's technique to conceive Rey or augment her Force connection[/suspicious]. Makes it true... From a certain point of view.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: forumghost on January 05, 2018, 12:07:10 AM
No.  The act of going to the darkside requires really negative emotions.  So the type of person to cross over is most likely the type of person who is ambitious, violent, and paranoid.  Those are the characteristics that make them dangerous.  They aren't automatically murderers of other force users though.  For example Darth Plagus wanted an equal to rule the galaxy with.  Unfortunately for him Sidius didn't feel the same way.  Another Darth ended up being killed because he had feelings for the female he'd taken on as an apprentice, she wanted to rule though. 

Dark side users use all their emotions while light side typically do not.  Anakin went over to the dark side because of the love of a woman, and his willingness to do anything to save her, which is why Jedi aren't allowed to have to have romantic relationships. 

Once again, there were Sith in the past who wanted there to be a lot of other Sith.  It was Darth Bane who became Emperor who started the trend of only 2. 

There's also the fact that if you want to use the Dark Side effectively the only way to do so is to negative-feedback-loop all of your negative emotions for more power. You have to stack Rage onto Rage onto Rage until you're basically a frothing, rabid lunatic likely to go off at the drop of a hat.

A Sith would take the time you... I dunno, cut them off in traffic, and deliberately twist that into a bigger and bigger attack on their person, so that they could feed on the emotions that came with it for power. They're intentionally wallowing in their own negativity.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: jonas on January 05, 2018, 02:18:12 AM
There's also the fact that if you want to use the Dark Side effectively the only way to do so is to negative-feedback-loop all of your negative emotions for more power. You have to stack Rage onto Rage onto Rage until you're basically a frothing, rabid lunatic likely to go off at the drop of a hat.
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That's the Sith methods of grasping the dark side as the 'true' force. The jedi 'light' was actually developed second from the original Grey methods.

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A Sith would take the time you... I dunno, cut them off in traffic, and deliberately twist that into a bigger and bigger attack on their person, so that they could feed on the emotions that came with it for power. They're intentionally wallowing in their own negativity.
That's true for sith though sure.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 05, 2018, 09:47:28 AM
Well, if the Sith need to wallow in negativity; they should join Twitter.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: forumghost on January 05, 2018, 12:09:50 PM
Well, if the Sith need to wallow in negativity; they should join Twitter.

I don't know that Twitter's quite dark enough for the Sith. They'd probably go for Tumblr, or a Youtube comment section.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rasins on January 05, 2018, 04:24:41 PM
Well, if the Sith need to wallow in negativity; they should join Twitter.
I don't know that Twitter's quite dark enough for the Sith. They'd probably go for Tumblr, or a Youtube comment section.

Or KIK.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: twobee on January 07, 2018, 07:59:31 PM
I have to disagree with, apparently, most of the people on this thread. I really liked TLJ, in fact, I thought it was quite possibly the best Star Wars movie so far. They had an interesting plot that never went quite the way you'd expect. Had a good mix of drama with some lighthearted moments that I thought worked well. They had some cute, kitschy critters, but were restrained in their use enough that they didn't become cloying or distracting. The action scenes were well-done and actually advanced the plot.  And I really liked the interaction between Luke and Rey.
I understand that some people were disappointed at the notion that Rey's parents were nobodies, but I thought that actually made the most sense in the context of the story. First of all, having her be the secret daughter of Luke, or even Obi-wan, would have been pretty contrived. Second, it was the most dramatic and heartbreaking discovery for Rey. For Luke, pretty much the worst thing he could have discovered was that Darth Vader was his father. For Rey, it was learning that her parents were nobodies and couldn't give her the answers she was seeking. I really hope they don't backtrack on this and try to make her actually the daughter of some important character, and I will be very disappointed if they do
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: jonas on January 07, 2018, 08:22:57 PM
See... I think her mom was a nobody... I think her dad was very confused and pissed off until his wife convinced him she never had sex ;)
if there is a fissure in the force then of course it's going to keep manifesting to try and achieve balance.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 08, 2018, 09:47:28 AM
Good one, jonas.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kindler on January 08, 2018, 04:06:44 PM
I have to disagree with, apparently, most of the people on this thread. I really liked TLJ, in fact, I thought it was quite possibly the best Star Wars movie so far. They had an interesting plot that never went quite the way you'd expect. Had a good mix of drama with some lighthearted moments that I thought worked well. They had some cute, kitschy critters, but were restrained in their use enough that they didn't become cloying or distracting. The action scenes were well-done and actually advanced the plot.  And I really liked the interaction between Luke and Rey.
I understand that some people were disappointed at the notion that Rey's parents were nobodies, but I thought that actually made the most sense in the context of the story. First of all, having her be the secret daughter of Luke, or even Obi-wan, would have been pretty contrived. Second, it was the most dramatic and heartbreaking discovery for Rey. For Luke, pretty much the worst thing he could have discovered was that Darth Vader was his father. For Rey, it was learning that her parents were nobodies and couldn't give her the answers she was seeking. I really hope they don't backtrack on this and try to make her actually the daughter of some important character, and I will be very disappointed if they do
Lots of spoilers, cuz the plot of the movie is where I have problems.

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I loathed this movie. For me, it is a fresh black mark on a series struggling to regain its narrative feet after a disappointing prequel trilogy. Especially coming off the excellent Rogue One, I wanted my money back at the end.

Anyone is free to disagree with me; I'm not telling anyone that they're not allowed to like something, or that they're wrong for liking it. But the whole thing, start to finish, left a horrible taste in my mouth, and I just wound up mad. I get that they wanted to do something different, which is cool, but their way of doing that was mocking what was old. That's not fair; it's a slap in the face to fans of the original.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Foxed on January 08, 2018, 05:15:44 PM
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Was she wrong, though? I thought the movie did an excellent job showing us she was right about a protagonist we had grown to love.

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It's almost like you understand the movie. And they would have thought that because those actions were that. The problem is in mythologizing those actions and then acting on that myth.

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It's almost like he wanted to see Rey again. Jesus, you pick that as what doesn't make sense? It makes perfect sense! The motive is clear!
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kindler on January 08, 2018, 08:55:09 PM
I fundamentally disagree with you on just about every point. I'll concede Finn has
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. The rest is still, in my opinion, bad.
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And yes, I'm going to blame Holdo,
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.
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As for the theme of the movie,
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That's all I have to say; we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Again, like what you want.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: forumghost on January 08, 2018, 09:25:48 PM
I mean, themes are great and all that, but when the theme of a Star Wars movie is 'Fuck Star Wars'...

That's kind of a fundamental issue, to me.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Foxed on January 08, 2018, 09:36:19 PM
The theme wasn't Fuck Star Wars. It was about saving the good parts and making new Star Wars.

You can not like the theme, but you can't call everything that plays into the theme useless. That's crazy.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: forumghost on January 08, 2018, 10:04:59 PM
That would be crazy. By all means, please point out where I said that, and then explain to me what 'good parts' the current series wants to save.

Because so far the message of the movies has been
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TLDR: New movies are shit because they're busy trying to tear down the old movies to prop themselves up, instead of trying to be good on their own merits.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 08, 2018, 11:36:08 PM
I think that preaching socio-political messages  as plot points does not work for sci-fi movies.  Focuse on making the movie good and the message will get across.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 08, 2018, 11:42:07 PM
I'll laugh if another company buys the rights to star wars and then voids these last few movies Disney did calling them legends and starting over.  It would give the fans of the new movies a taste of what it feels like to be an expanded universe fan.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: jonas on January 09, 2018, 12:29:52 AM
I'll laugh if another company buys the rights to star wars and then voids these last few movies Disney did calling them legends and starting over.  It would give the fans of the new movies a taste of what it feels like to be an expanded universe fan.
*Snickers*
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kindler on January 09, 2018, 04:04:55 PM
TLDR: New movies are shit because they're busy trying to tear down the old movies to prop themselves up, instead of trying to be good on their own merits.

Honestly, that was my biggest problem with The Last Jedi. I liked the Force Awakens, and still do (I know it's popular to dump on it now, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with nostalgia). TLJ felt like an overcorrection to the criticism leveled against the Force Awakens about said nostalgia. Like I said before, you can do new stuff, but Newness is not a virtue in and of itself, and doesn't require "killing the past." There were bright spots; I liked the opening sequence, I thought Rey and Kylo were good, and about half of Luke's scenes were good (but I really didn't need to see him drinking blue milk fresh from an udder, for instance).

I think that preaching socio-political messages  as plot points does not work for sci-fi movies.  Focuse on making the movie good and the message will get across.

I generally agree. I think it dragged down the movie, especially Rose's character, whose only role seemed to be telling everyone around her that they were stupid. It felt like self-insert fic. That and, you know, grinding the movie to a halt to talk about animal cruelty.

I'm just mad because I really, really, really wanted to like it, and this movie felt like it was insulting me for liking the ones that came before it.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Talby16 on January 10, 2018, 04:33:34 PM
A little late to the party, but I read an interesting take on the whole bringing balance to the force issue. I will try to find the author, but essentially the assertion was that Anakin brought balance to the force by killing the Sith Order. Since Darth Bane the Sith have lived by the rule of 2 keeping the number of dark side users artificially low. Granted, there were other dark side users out there (Nightsisters for example), but nothing like the Sith Empire of Old. So on one side you had thousands of Jedi using the light side versus a limited number of Sith tapping into the Dark Side. That was the imbalance. By killing Palpatine and then dying Anakin killed the Sith legacy and the majority of the Sith teachings (outside of Holocrons) was lost. This, along with the previous destruction of the Jedi Order, would allow for an organic growth of light and dark side users and restore a balance between the two sides.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rasins on January 10, 2018, 07:33:27 PM
I like that Talby.

I'd heard a different theory about it once.

Basically the Jedi were protecting the ecosystem from Pollution.

Imagine a beautiful meadow/pond ecosystem in perfect balance.  Predator/Prey were in balance.   Any impurities were filtered through the system all was good.

Then the Sith came along and started dumping toxic waste into this ecosystem.

The Jedi were supposed to prevent it, and eventually were unable to and it would require a savior (The One Who Will Restore Balance).

I think I like your's better.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kindler on January 10, 2018, 07:49:25 PM
A little late to the party, but I read an interesting take on the whole bringing balance to the force issue. I will try to find the author, but essentially the assertion was that Anakin brought balance to the force by killing the Sith Order. Since Darth Bane the Sith have lived by the rule of 2 keeping the number of dark side users artificially low. Granted, there were other dark side users out there (Nightsisters for example), but nothing like the Sith Empire of Old. So on one side you had thousands of Jedi using the light side versus a limited number of Sith tapping into the Dark Side. That was the imbalance. By killing Palpatine and then dying Anakin killed the Sith legacy and the majority of the Sith teachings (outside of Holocrons) was lost. This, along with the previous destruction of the Jedi Order, would allow for an organic growth of light and dark side users and restore a balance between the two sides.

That's what I've always thought; Anakin reduced the number of Jedi to two (Yoda and Obi Wan) to match the number of Sith (himself and Palpatine).

I'm ignoring Extended Universe stuff. I never bothered with any of it (aside from a couple of the Wedge Antilles books a while back, because they're funny).
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Talby16 on January 10, 2018, 07:58:21 PM
I think it also has to do with the concentration of power, not just the absolute number of light and dark side users. The Sith were keeping the number of dark side users low and concentrating the use of the dark side in a few. Thus the dark side was not getting used much, but when it did it had much wider implications (starting a war, toppling the republic, setting up an Empire etc). Contrast that with the light side which had thousands of Jedi using their power on a daily basis to settle all kinds of relatively minor conflicts. It was that imbalance in power usage/access that Anakin corrected.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 10, 2018, 09:17:59 PM
I don't really like your explanations of how Anakin restored balance to the force though I can buy into the Anakin kills Palpatine which finally begins the balancing of the force.  I do believe we will find even with the Disney star wars movies that there is a big bad imprisoned within a black hole cluster which the Kessle run has to navigate around. This then possibly ties Han solos kessel run with finding the unknown safe route that allowed him to do it in under 12 parsers which everyone knows is impossible and believed to be  just hyperbole.

This then means the chosen one's lineage and not necessarily himself is who all together bring balance to the force.

I was looking more at the Canon trilogy of books set after return of the Jedi. Palpatine foresaw the possibility of himself dying and issued contingency orders that ultimately led to the new orders creation.  Two things that wasn't completed in the contingency was the destruction of jakku, Palpatine had planned for Sith artifacts to be dropped in jakku core via mining shaft which would initiate explosion and result in the subsequent destruction of planet and ships in orbit. Jakku was meant to be the last battle between empire and rebels with both their fleets destroyed in the planetary explosion. There was a plan that lured the rebels there which succeeded. The second thing that wasn't accomplished, scratch that was accomplished, was the scorching of a multitude of planets within the empire to include naboo, coruscant, etc.  Palpatine believed if the empire was so weak as to protect him, it should die with him.  He also didn't want someone to inherit his empire.

So the people responsible for the contingency, for the battle at jakku, for the kidnapping of some jakkus children became the core of the later new order after they set out for the unknown regions.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: knnn on January 10, 2018, 09:37:54 PM
All in all I felt this was a disappointing movie.  I think the actors did really good jobs with the lines they were given, but the plot was abysmal, full of holes and way too long.

Some examples:

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Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 10, 2018, 09:46:28 PM
2.  Based off canon, Palpatine gave secret orders regarding a contingency where he sent several fleets and military assets in case of his death some of which was to seed the new order within the unknown regions. So he could have ordered them there postdeath plans Or they naturally assembled.

4.  Hux was the son of brendol hux one of the leaders of the contingency. After his death at the hands of phasma in a conspiracy with younger hux,  hux takes over his father's position as one of the leaders of the new order. 
Prior to his father's death, he is looked favorably upon by gallius rax, Palpatine's trusted admiral that personally carries out Palpatine's contingency.  I think either Palpatine or rax had larger plans for him which I believe is why he is in charge.  He is maybe viewed as having a big role to play in events by those in the force who can see into the future.  That would be my guess.   

I believe we will see  a revisit to jakku as Palpatine was very interested at a particular dig site, which is where he met gallius rax as a little boy. Rax would later make child soldiers out of those from jakku, and the orphanage from which he came that wads nearby the dig site.  Some of these child soldiers were shaped into vicious killers by hux's father, but was transferred to younger hux by orders of rax.  So although I kinda repeat the story, it should be noted that rax, the person most apprised of Palpatine's plans, placed younger hux in his position along with many other child fighters that would form the base of the new orders military might.  Please note,  those child fighters came from jakku.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: forumghost on January 10, 2018, 10:16:03 PM
2.  Based off canon, Palpatine gave secret orders regarding a contingency where he sent several fleets and military assets in case of his death some of which was to seed the new order within the unknown regions. So he could have ordered them there postdeath plans Or they naturally assembled.

Actually, the new canon is that in the event of his death, the Imperial Fleet was to engage in something called "Operation Cinder" which can be summed up as "A Galaxy not ruled by me doesn't deserve to live, Kill Everything".

He literally ordered them to burn every world in the Empire for failing to keep him alive.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 10, 2018, 10:28:23 PM
There was the Contingency, as I outlined.

Operation cinder I talked about too but not by that name which is just part of the Contingency. Read 3rd paragraph of my first comment on this thread.  The second thing that wasn't accomplished...scratch that was accomplished...was the scorching of a multitude of planets...

I also have previously referred to operation cinder in the thread before but Canon also has Palpatine ordering a regrouping of ships after his death that wasn't involved in cinder.  Those big starships crashed on jakku was part of a battle Palpatine intended to happen.  It just didn't happen along with the entire planet going up in a blast taking out both fleets at once.  And yes, the empire fleet at jakku wasn't the only assets he had.  And they had ultimate orders for them to reassemble in the unknown regions as ordered via rax. The trilogy books are Canon.

I'm going with it being a part of the Contingency.  Yeah cinder was just part of the Contingency I just viewed its wiki.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: knnn on January 11, 2018, 01:09:44 PM
See, that's exactly where the movie failed.   

If the Contingency exists in the movie canon, then have some admiral mention doing a resupply run instead of wasting our time essentially preaching the evils of war profiteering.   Unless the purpose of the scene is some kind of lame red herring (lame because of the aforementioned holes in the logic), this is just extra bloat in an already over-long movie.

Same thing with Hux.   If Hux is given loyalty because of who his father was, let someone mention it **onscreen**.  A simple mutter "if it wasn't for the Emperor's faith in your father..." would tighten things up much so better than an extra 15 seconds of infinite mirrors.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 11, 2018, 03:33:14 PM
You are absolutely correct.

The Canon trilogy was hardly referenced at all save for the fact that the remains of the Super Star destroyer and other ships were seen crashed on Jakku.  And, the New Order's rise was hardly, if at all, linked to Palpatine's Contingency orders via Gallius Rax, who died when he personally attempted to overload Jakku's core using Sith artifacts but was killed by his own Grand Admiral Sloane.  Rax last order, while he was dying, was for her to assume command of the mission to the unknown regions to help create this new order.

I didn't learn more of it until after watching the movie and creating this thread.

I could see a cloned palpatine being a possibility in the Contingency now after reading a brief synopsis about the canon trilogy.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kindler on January 11, 2018, 06:14:15 PM
I could see a cloned palpatine being a possibility in the Contingency now after reading a brief synopsis about the canon trilogy.
I'm of two minds about that possibility. One, it would be cool to have a Big Bad that wasn't all talk, but Two, I really, really hope we don't have any clone business with regard to resurrecting dead characters. Have Kylo find the equivalent of the original Sith temple, or have Palpatine as a Force ghost advising him so he's less of a petulant boy.

Also, Knnn, I'm not all that upset with Kylo being in charge of the First Order; you saw how well it worked out for just that limited engagement. I'd kinda like to see what it's like to have an unstable, uber-strong, emotional wreck in charge of a massive war machine. One of the things I always wanted to see was Vader in charge, because I always thought he'd be awful at it. You can't just forcechoke your officers into submission every time they disagree, you know?
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 11, 2018, 06:20:18 PM
Well my guesses for the big bad are Cloned Palpatine, Cloned Snoke, or some big bad that I've talked about like Abeloth or one of her manifestations outside of her main self.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: lt_murgen on January 11, 2018, 06:59:01 PM
...Palpatine had planned for Sith artifacts to be dropped in jakku core via mining shaft which would initiate explosion and result in the subsequent destruction of planet and ships in orbit. ....

I think this is the key to Rey.  A force sensitive child growing up in a sith and death tainted environment.  You could pull at KOTOR 2- Jedi General thing, where she (as a child) cut herself off from the Force.  Her contact with Kylo made a connection back to the force for her. 
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 12, 2018, 05:25:07 AM
Yeah we still don't yet know what inadvertent effects were caused by those Sith objects, Palpatine observatory, digsite, etc.  Palpatine also believed Jakku to be important to the galaxy for some reason which is why he was so focused on it.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Quantus on January 12, 2018, 02:08:59 PM
I didnt mind most of the things that people are bothered about, in that Im ok with Snoke's backstory being unimportant, and Im actually really pleased that they didnt try to tie Rey into on of the established Bloodlines (and especially showing the random orphan kid developing force powers at the end) as Im not in the camp that says Star Wars /has/ to remain the Skywalker Saga forevermore. 

I do really with they'd spent even a throw-away line on how the First Order gained so much resources.  The Contingency from the Expanded Universe makes a whole lot of sense but Id never heard of it until one of the guys at work mentioned it.  That was the main thing I wanted explained definitively: how the blood hell did the First Order gain so much resources both militarily and economically in such a short amount of time. If they were simply conquering and looting Planets it would be one thing, if they stumbled across a cache of Empire weapons that's another, but either way Id like them to address it directly.


PS.  The line that made the movie for me: "Watch your Language, R2!"
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 12, 2018, 08:53:34 PM
How did the Rebellion take down the Empire and in 20+ years lose everything they had gain?
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: forumghost on January 12, 2018, 09:01:38 PM
How did the Rebellion take down the Empire and in 20+ years lose everything they had gain?

Gross incompetence on behalf of both parties + Author Fiat.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 13, 2018, 12:08:50 AM
How did the Rebellion take down the Empire and in 20+ years lose everything they had gain?

My quick review showed that there were fractures within the New Republic, with Imperial Operatives either working as and/or working with Republic Senators.  Some Senators were involved in side deals that helped the New Order and these were kept hidden.  The Republic Senate often was stalemated into lack of action.  So, the Republic essentially disbanded their military while the New Order created/regrouped theirs.

Lea, tired of the New Republics stalemate, created the Resistance so as to finally take action against the New Order and work toward exposing it so that the New Republic would finally act.  Many of the great heroes of the Rebellion then joined her resistance which is how Admiral Ackbar came to be with Lea.  He came out of retirement to help knowing that the New Republic was failing and that a Resistance needed to be created to do what the Republic was failing to do.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Talby16 on January 13, 2018, 04:28:55 PM
The remnants of the Empire retreated into the Unknown region where the Emperor had seeded some caches and factories with the help of Grand Admiral Thrawn. Meanwhile, as raidem said, the New Republic stagnated between the opposed sides of those who wanted a more centralized leadership (an Empire without the evil) vs those who wanted a decentralized  leadership with control resting in the hands of the sectors/planets.  A side effect was the downsizing of the military. Resources were being diverted to the First Order and they gained a foothold in the outer rim. Once the First Order started moving openly they started conquering and plundering planets.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 13, 2018, 06:48:54 PM
Good point on Grand Admiral Thrawn.  He was the greatest character in the expanded universe.  I also loved the facts related to his downfall.  :)

Anyone want to ask what they are, and who they apply to?  And, how some of those same facts could be used to verify if Rey is related to the Skywalker line?  Anyone?

Anyone know what I'm talking about before I spoil it?
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: HistoryDave on January 13, 2018, 07:28:01 PM
Last Jedi was a dog's dinner of a movie.  Visually interesting, but designed to deconstruct everything about the established universe and characters.  Harry, who chose to live in an apartment that never changed and with a classic Star Wars poster, will hate this movie. 
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 13, 2018, 08:03:55 PM
He would have liked The Force Awakens though. It had promise.  I mean you could see where things were borrowed from there to put over here in a different spot, but they were alright tweaks as long as Rey indeed fulfilled the role of Luke's daughter or at least a Skywalker descendant somehow.  If that is destroyed and there are no Luke children to replace Ben Skywalker nor Luke's love interest like Mara Jade, I'm going to be quite mad.  LIVID.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 13, 2018, 10:05:06 PM
Good point on Grand Admiral Thrawn.  He was the greatest character in the expanded universe.  I also loved the facts related to his downfall.  :)

Anyone want to ask what they are, and who they apply to?  And, how some of those same facts could be used to verify if Rey is related to the Skywalker line?  Anyone?

Anyone know what I'm talking about before I spoil it?
I know you are itching to spoil it Raidem. So go ahead.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 13, 2018, 10:29:04 PM
OK.

Grand Admiral Thrawn is like a HUGE genius at naval operations against his enemies.  He is nearly unbeatable.  He is guarded by fiercely loyal guards that have their own history with the Empire and they regard Vader as their savior from a poison plaguing their planet.  So, Thrawn sends a group of these assassins to kidnap Lea (or assassinate, but I think it was kidnap).  Before I go on, they have an extremely acute sense of smell where they can even differentiate a person's bloodline based on their smell.  Ok, now getting back to the story.  In their mission to kidnap Lea, they become aware via her smell that Lea shares a close bloodline with Vader.  This throws a wrench in the guards plans as they are fiercely loyal to the Empire because of their loyalty to Vader, not really any other reason that is strong as that one.  So, I forget the specificity of the plot at this point but basically Lea proceeds to convince them that the Empire actually poisoned their homeworld and that they should assist the New Republic instead of Thrawn.  However convincing her arguments were, they truly and highly respect Lady Vader so the higher ups began to shift toward Lea unbeknownst to the Imperial Remnants.  Now for another aside, these Noghri are like the galaxies best assassins.  I mean Emperor Palpatine went so far as to wipe out any historical record of their planet so he could have them as his assets in taking out his enemies, etc. So, getting back to the matter at hand, Thrawn wasn't aware of this tidbit about the Noghri: that they would essentially hold higher loyalty to Lady Vader than him.  So, Lea convinces the Noghri to help in one of the battles against Thrawn.  And right when Thrawn learns that Noghri assisted the New Republic in the battle, his Noghri bodyguard assassinates him.  This ends the threat of Thrawn, or at least the original Thrawn. 

How could this tie in with answering Rey's bloodline question?  Well, if Thrawn and these Noghri bodyguards (or just the Noghri) are in the next movie and they come across Rey, they may be able to sense her familial bloodline back toward the Skywalker family tree.  I guess it depends on how sensitive their senses are and how diluted subsequent generations of Skywalker's pheromones or such become.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 13, 2018, 11:42:21 PM
Interesting story. Might need something more significant than DNA-smell. But, interesting story.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 14, 2018, 01:13:52 AM
Maybe they just get an impression and then confirm it with DNA test.

That or its an innate force smell ability.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Talby16 on January 14, 2018, 02:35:22 PM
Just to add a bit to raidems recounting of the story. The Noghri's homeworld was originally poisoned during the clone wars. A battle took place above their planet and one of the capital ships crashed poisoning the land and preventing the agricultural society from growing any crops. A few years later Darth Vader was the first outsider to make contact with the Noghri and blamed the rebellion for the disaster (even though it happened during the Clone Wars). He promised the Empire's help in restoring the Noghri's planet and gave them droids that worked at cleansing the land. In return the Noghri served the Emperor and later Thrawn. Then, as raidem said, the Noghri were sent to capture Leia in order to take her unborn twins and Noghri recognized Leia as a daughter of Vader. They took her to their world where she was able to convince the Noghri that they had been duped. She took apart a robot and showed them that the robots were actually further damaging the land and slowing the recovery process as well as proving that the battle was not the rebellion's fault. The Noghri served Leia afterwards and one of the Noghri guarding Thrawn assassinated him in the middle of a huge battle causing the Empire to leave the engagement despite having the upper hand.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: raidem on January 14, 2018, 02:44:58 PM
Thank you Talby16.  It lines up quite well with what I remember in the books.  I just didn't have the time nor the accurate recall to go further into the specifics.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Talby16 on January 14, 2018, 03:35:43 PM
Thank you Talby16.  It lines up quite well with what I remember in the books.  I just didn't have the time nor the accurate recall to go further into the specifics.

Always glad to lend my Star Wars knowledge.
Title: Re: Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sully on February 26, 2018, 04:19:28 AM
On Raidem's theory:

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