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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on June 07, 2021, 02:45:46 AM

Title: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: morriswalters on June 07, 2021, 02:45:46 AM
Here we have a secret that a lot of people know about Harry.  The question is why won't they tell him, isn't it? In fiction that can only mean one thing. Whatever is going to happen will be interfered with if Harry finds out early. It reeks of time travel. ::) >:( 

Another interesting idea(to me) is the castle.  Why introduce it?  And why place it at Harry former home? Was Jim laying foundations? The Marcone's vault was the key to opening a portal into Hades domain. Is the Castle the key to opening a portal somewhere else? :)

What kept Mab from marrying Lara? Think about this one. Is Lara Mab's  mortal child?
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“Not possible,” Mab said. “If it was work I could do myself, I would.” Which . . . I believed, actually. “Why not?” “Certain aspects of my power have to do with choices I made when I was mortal,” she said. “There would be . . . compatibility issues. This is part of the task the Knight was designed for.”

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 395). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Did Mab have a child with Papa Raith?  Jim reuses ideas and Margaret did leave Thomas to his own devices. That would be one hell of a compatibility issue. :o

I got a ton.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Arjan on June 07, 2021, 06:43:39 AM

Here we have a secret that a lot of people know about Harry.  The question is why won't they tell him, isn't it? In fiction that can only mean one thing. Whatever is going to happen will be interfered with if Harry finds out early. It reeks of time travel. ::) >:( 

Another interesting idea(to me) is the castle.  Why introduce it?  And why place it at Harry former home? Was Jim laying foundations? The Marcone's vault was the key to opening a portal into Hades domain. Is the Castle the key to opening a portal somewhere else? :)
Harry needs a home in Chicago. It needs to be cool and defensible and it needs space for allies.
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What kept Mab from marrying Lara? Think about this one. Is Lara Mab's  mortal child?Did Mab have a child with Papa Raith?  Jim reuses ideas and Margaret did leave Thomas to his own devices. That would be one hell of a compatibility issue. :o

I got a ton.
The same reason Molly can't have sex. It has all to do with the maiden-mother-crone complex. She has a role in winter and she can not abandon it. It would harm the story and so endanger the whole of fairy. Also her mantle would probably stop her.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Mira on June 07, 2021, 09:14:53 PM
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The same reason Molly can't have sex.

Or is limited as to whom she can have sex with.  Either Mab had her daughters before she became Winter Lady, then Queen, or she was able to have sex with a select few.  Ritual or not, Mab had sex with Harry when he became her Knight, or rather he mated with Winter.  It could be if it was during her fertile time, Maeve and Sarissa were the product of Mab and some other Winter Knight's mating.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Arjan on June 07, 2021, 09:42:11 PM
Or is limited as to whom she can have sex with.  Either Mab had her daughters before she became Winter Lady, then Queen, or she was able to have sex with a select few.  Ritual or not, Mab had sex with Harry when he became her Knight, or rather he mated with Winter.  It could be if it was during her fertile time, Maeve and Sarissa were the product of Mab and some other Winter Knight's mating.
Mab obviously can have sex as a winter queen because she is not the maiden and not the crone but there are restrictions caused by her role.

Lara is not really father material.

Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Snark Knight on June 08, 2021, 01:11:25 AM
Maeve and Sarissa were the product of Mab and some other Winter Knight's mating.

There was a WOJ that their father was a "famous Austrian composer" ... and I don't think any of them went down in history as notably brutal figures.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Mira on June 08, 2021, 01:56:19 AM
There was a WOJ that their father was a "famous Austrian composer" ... and I don't think any of them went down in history as notably brutal figures.

Which begs the question, was Mab, Queen then?  Or not?
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: morriswalters on June 08, 2021, 02:30:02 AM
Harry needs a home in Chicago. It needs to be cool and defensible and it needs space for allies.
Castles are a pain to heat.  And they're expensive to maintain. The Brownies are going to want a raise. Which is why a castle would be up for sale. But it was obvious in Ghost Story that the castle was going to end up in Harry's hands.  answer too ordinary.

Per the quote I gave you whatever it is happened while she was still mortal and as such has nothing to do with her being Mab.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Arjan on June 08, 2021, 03:25:37 AM
Castles are a pain to heat.
Gargoyles, winter knigts and spirits of intellect don't mind.

But Marcone and his associates did so I think some of the rooms are well heated and isolated.
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And they're expensive to maintain. The Brownies are going to want a raise.
De brownies were summer and Lilly's. They are gone now.
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Which is why a castle would be up for sale. But it was obvious in Ghost Story that the castle was going to end up in Harry's hands. Answer too ordinary.
Even more when he discovered his lab was still there.
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Per the quote I gave you whatever it is happened while she was still mortal and as such has nothing to do with her being Mab.
It had to do with the choices she made as a mortal which resulted in becoming Mab. But her children she got when she was Mab. They were only a few hundred years old and Mab is much older. She could and maybe even had to get them when she became queen.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Mira on June 08, 2021, 02:34:06 PM
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Castles are a pain to heat.

A guy who used to take cold showers in the dead of Chicago's winter wouldn't be bothered by lack of heat, but his little girl might be...
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Yuillegan on June 09, 2021, 11:27:12 AM
Agree about the time travel stuff.

One the one hand, Jim is always looking for new ways to torture Harry and create more problems. So undoubtedly the castle will factor in that somehow. On the other hand, Jim clearly felt it was time for Harry and his daughter to have a home again. It's part of the same idea that says Harry should also be a good, full-time Dad whilst also saving the world. Superman but also a farmer, type thing. Whether you agree with it or not (and I know the Maggie stuff is controversial in the fandom, particularly Harry now being her full-time Dad) this is almost certainly going to be a part of it. The Castle will be there at least until the BAT I am sure. Whether Harry lives there the whole time is another matter.

The Mab is Lara's mother stuff would be just crazy. But interesting. I think I need to hear more to be convinced. Any other evidence for it?
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: morriswalters on June 09, 2021, 03:44:20 PM
Not a lick other than what I cited. Mostly just me juggling pieces of the books and tossing random interesting thoughts into the fray. Using the phrase "compatibility issue" is kind of strange, as is the fact that it was from a choice she made as a mortal.

Then there is this.
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tension-tightened faces. “Old woman,” Corb taunted. “I remember you as a bawling brat. I remember your pimply face when you rode with the Conqueror. I remember how you wept when Merlin cast you out.” Mab’s face . . . . . . twisted into naked, ugly, absolute rage. Her body became so rigid, so immobile, that it could not possibly have belonged to a living thing. “Tell me,” Corb purred. “If he was yet among the living, do you think he would still love you? Would he be so proud of what you’ve become?”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (pp. 278-279). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
So Mab and Merlin were a thing. Yet he cast her out, for what?  Having a child with a succubus?

Cold Days pretty much lays out the blueprint for time travel as Jim apparently sees it. Branching time and the multiverse.  He has Odin imply that this has all happened before.  It may be a Groundhog Day type of loop or something like it and in a WOJ Jim says he's going to use the time travel book to fix the continuity issues.

The castle is a perfect takeoff point for time travel through portals. If it is Merlin's castle then the portal affinity would be there is you assume that Harry will go back and become Merlin.  The set pieces would be Eb's death and Harry coming into possession of Merlin's diaries.  The reveal of the true nature of Bonea. 

A short ride through my nightmare. 
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Yuillegan on June 11, 2021, 06:55:08 AM
Yes, was definitely an odd turn of phrase and a big hint.

The quote you use always made me think that Mab originally was Morgan Le Fey. Morgan and Merlin always had a bit of a tumultuous relationship after all...according to some version he was her master and teacher of magic. Which would fit some of her feelings she seems to have for him. Perhaps she went too far trying to do the right thing...and even though Merlin ended up accepting it he was horrified by her and banished her as punishment. Who knows?

I think you're right about Cold Days. We won't get anymore information on all that until Mirror Mirror of course, but the foundations are in place. I expect Jim will attempt to fix the issues but I am not going to get overly optimistic about his chances. It would be difficult for ANY author and he has to do it in such a way as to not create even more errors. Not that I am upset about this. It's just part of dealing with big works of fiction.

I think you're on the money about the castle.

I...am not sure what to think about your nightmare. I think part of my brain immediately attempted to reject it. On the other hand you could well be right. It makes a sort of sick sense. I don't yet know if I like it or not...I'll probably have to see it done (if that's what happens) to see how I really feel. The only quibble is Harry in Demonreach. I have zero idea why he would talk to a past version of himself in a British accent. And then be so unlike himself to his future self. Vadderung is more like a future Harry in his mannerisms than the Prisoner. At least that's my reading.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: morriswalters on June 11, 2021, 02:15:38 PM
Harry in Demonreach would know what's coming and what price he will pay and what his choices will cost him. Jim foreshadowed Molly's possible fall from grace and in the end I think she will backstab Mab for giving Lara what she can't have.  This possibility was foreshadowed when Harry soul gazed her.
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The last reflection of Molly wasn’t the girl. Oh, it looked like Molly, externally. But the eyes gave it away. They were flat as a reptile’s, empty. She wore all black, including a black collar, and her hair had been dyed to match. Though she looked like Molly, like a human being, she was neither. She had become something else entirely, something very, very bad.
This sounds a lot like Mab's judgement form.  Another of the other things he sees in the soul gaze is the Molly like this.
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One was an emaciated version of Molly, as though she’d been starved or strung out on hard drugs, her eyes aglow with an unpleasant, fey light.
Which of course foreshadowed Ghost Story.

I think he's coming back to try and do at least three things, save the mortal who became Mab, save Molly and fill Demonreach in the final showdown in the Bat.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Arjan on June 11, 2021, 03:16:05 PM
Harry in Demonreach would know what's coming and what price he will pay and what his choices will cost him. Jim foreshadowed Molly's possible fall from grace and in the end I think she will backstab Mab for giving Lara what she can't have.  This possibility was foreshadowed when Harry soul gazed her.This sounds a lot like Mab's judgement form.  Another of the other things he sees in the soul gaze is the Molly like this.Which of course foreshadowed Ghost Story.

I think he's coming back to try and do at least three things, save the mortal who became Mab, save Molly and fill Demonreach in the final showdown in the Bat.
Mab’s judgement form is more terrible and majestic. I thought it was just Molly as a full blown warlock.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Avernite on June 11, 2021, 05:02:30 PM
Once Harry Prime is gone Merlin will appear.  Mab will be revealed as Harry's true love and will meet the fate of his other loves when she is back stabbed by Molly who will complete her trip to evil. And so on.
And of course Molly then becomes MAB later. So she killed herself, somehow, and later travels back in time. At which point early-Harry/Merlin will cast her out to become the cold Mab from the current still-human Molly.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: morriswalters on June 11, 2021, 05:07:48 PM
It was early days in Proven Guilty.  And until that point I don't think that Jim had shown Mab in that form. But I ain't married to the idea.  But if I was Mab I'd wear body armor going forward.
And of course Molly then becomes MAB later. So she killed herself, somehow, and later travels back in time. At which point early-Harry/Merlin will cast her out to become the cold Mab from the current still-human Molly.
Well it's your book when you read it, so if it works, it works.  This is the book I'm writing in my head since I won't live to see the BAT assuming that Jim actually gets there.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Mira on June 11, 2021, 05:33:00 PM
It was early days in Proven Guilty.  And until that point I don't think that Jim had shown Mab in that form. But I ain't married to the idea.  But if I was Mab I'd wear body armor going forward.Well it's your book when you read it, so if it works, it works.  This is the book I'm writing in my head since I won't live to see the BAT assuming that Jim actually gets there.

Perhaps in the next life we can compare notes? ::)  Because I doubt that I will live to see the BAT as well.. :(
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: morriswalters on June 11, 2021, 06:43:43 PM
Perhaps in the next life we can compare notes? ::)  Because I doubt that I will live to see the BAT as well.. :(
I don't want a next life, one was enough. I had high hopes until 6 years no books, but it is what it is.  I'll write my own BAT instead.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Yuillegan on June 12, 2021, 02:42:34 AM
Harry in Demonreach would know what's coming and what price he will pay and what his choices will cost him. Jim foreshadowed Molly's possible fall from grace and in the end I think she will backstab Mab for giving Lara what she can't have.  This possibility was foreshadowed when Harry soul gazed her.

This sounds a lot like Mab's judgement form.  Another of the other things he sees in the soul gaze is the Molly like this.

Which of course foreshadowed Ghost Story.

I think he's coming back to try and do at least three things, save the mortal who became Mab, save Molly and fill Demonreach in the final showdown in the Bat.
But Harry in Demonreach doesn't solve why Harry would put on a very credible British accent to fool his younger self. Until you can figure that one it's a fairly big hole in the idea.

Molly could backstab Mab...or Harry. A woman scorned and all that...

What's interesting about "dark" Molly is that she could represent any number of things. A warlock was most obvious at the time, but yes also a darker, more sinister Winter Queen. Perhaps what Mab was concerned about. The set-up that I can see is that Harry will have to kill Molly. He really doesn't want to, but just like with Susan, he will have to. It's about terrible choices. Molly is on a very dark road. Harry is partly responsible for that. The amount of times Jim has foreshadowed or mentioned that Dresden will have to kill Molly or Molly will go dark side or Molly should be stopped before she goes bad, is massive. I don't know that even Jim knows how exactly he will present this choice in the future but I am sure it's coming.

Often with time travel stories, in going back to try and change the past the character ends up setting in motion the very events they were trying to stop. The ontological paradox. I am not saying this is the case, but Vadderung made it very clear why it wasn't a good idea to try and change the past for any reason. Better to shape the future via action in the present.

I like how long the Molly=Mab idea has been going around. I think it was Ms. Duck who first started it years ago. Time will still tell on that one.

It was early days in Proven Guilty.  And until that point I don't think that Jim had shown Mab in that form. But I ain't married to the idea.  But if I was Mab I'd wear body armor going forward.

Well it's your book when you read it, so if it works, it works.  This is the book I'm writing in my head since I won't live to see the BAT assuming that Jim actually gets there.
I don't know why Mab hasn't been wearing armour all this time. Seems crazy to me.

I don't know your situation, but if you feel like you're getting close to the end I would encourage to to write to Jim and ask him about it. In the past, he has given people advance copies of the next book. Such as people with terminal illnesses etc. Perhaps he might tell you where it's all going. I hope you're doing okay though Morris.

I don't want a next life, one was enough. I had high hopes until 6 years no books, but it is what it is.  I'll write my own BAT instead.
Why not? It's your life. Might be fun to write your own BAT anyway. You might even prefer it to whatever Jim may end up writing.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: morriswalters on June 12, 2021, 04:49:37 AM
But Harry in Demonreach doesn't solve why Harry would put on a very credible British accent to fool his younger self. Until you can figure that one it's a fairly big hole in the idea.

Often with time travel stories, in going back to try and change the past the character ends up setting in motion the very events they were trying to stop. The ontological paradox. I am not saying this is the case, but Vadderung made it very clear why it wasn't a good idea to try and change the past for any reason. Better to shape the future via action in the present.
Okay, why a British accent? Because it's an easy lie. EOS.
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“I’ve never heard it phrased quite like that, but it’s accurate enough. In any event, overcoming that inertia requires tremendous energy, will, and a measure of simple luck. If one wishes to alter the course of history, it’s a far simpler matter to attempt to shape the future.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 214-215). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
This is what you're quoting and I think you are misreading it.  It's gibberish if taken straightforwardly. You can't change history by shaping the future.

Here's how you might do it for a story.  Who fixed LC? If Harry did it, how do you escape the paradox? Because someone in the future told you you needed to.  And it would be helpful if you changed the future by changing that person now. So if you changed Lasciel's shadow, you produce Bonea who can put the pieces together at the right time and send you back, to do everything you might need to do.  It's established that Lasciel knew everything, all of Harry's secrets. You shaped the future by changing her and she changes your past. This closes the loop.  Bonea knew because Lash broke Little Chicago. And she could sabotage LC because she could make Harry see exactly what she wanted him to see.  Like Sheila.

That's my solution to the bootstrap paradox. Dazzle them with footwork.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: groinkick on June 12, 2021, 07:50:01 PM
Lara is Mab's daughter???  Lord Raith is like 2,000 years old.  She is his eldest living child, so in theory maybe she is old enough...  Also with their marriage that would make Mab Harry's mother in law...  I mean how could Jim pass up an opportunity like that?  Mother in law from hell?  Not quite but pretty darn close!
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: groinkick on June 12, 2021, 07:53:49 PM
Okay, why a British accent? Because it's an easy lie.

Here is my theory on this, and how Jim was able to fib on it while telling the truth.  I do believe that person is either King Arthur, or the original Merlin.  It's true their English would be way different.  However I believe the Island allows Harry to understand anything that Harry wants to communicate with.  There were all manner of things trying to whisper to him.  Chances are they have been there for so long, and don't even know English, and yet Harry understood them.

If the person was say German, or Chinese, I think Harry would understand them but hear their accent even if they were speaking there native language.  It's all tied to the Island, and that no words are actually being spoken at all.  It's a form of telepathy.  So they think it, the Island deciphers it, and Harry understands it.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Yuillegan on June 13, 2021, 12:06:53 PM
Okay, why a British accent? Because it's an easy lie. EOS.

This is what you're quoting and I think you are misreading it.  It's gibberish if taken straightforwardly. You can't change history by shaping the future.

Here's how you might do it for a story.  Who fixed LC? If Harry did it, how do you escape the paradox? Because someone in the future told you you needed to.  And it would be helpful if you changed the future by changing that person now. So if you changed Lasciel's shadow, you produce Bonea who can put the pieces together at the right time and send you back, to do everything you might need to do.  It's established that Lasciel knew everything, all of Harry's secrets. You shaped the future by changing her and she changes your past. This closes the loop.  Bonea knew because Lash broke Little Chicago. And she could sabotage LC because she could make Harry see exactly what she wanted him to see.  Like Sheila.

That's my solution to the bootstrap paradox. Dazzle them with footwork.
Is it? Seems like it would have been easier not to talk to Dresden, not to mention Dresden's not exactly a great actor at the best of times. If he had dramatically improved his lying, why not talk in another language? He also clearly had enough psychic power to throw Dresden's mind out, even from his cell. He didn't have to talk to Dresden at all. He didn't even WANT to talk to Dresden.

To be fair, all time travel explanations are mostly gibberish. It's only possible (as far as we know) at a quantum level. And not in any way that we could use to effect that sort of change. I am not stating you can change history by shaping the future, and I don't think Vadderung was either. That would literally be going to the future to change the past.

What I believe that quote is saying, and I could be wrong, is that if you wish to change what might be (the future) it's a lot simpler to change things in the present. This requires a few elements. You would have to know what the likely future is and be able to make reasonable predictions about it. You would also need to have the tools to be able to change the pivotal events that would lead to those future outcomes. Like diverting a great river with well placed rocks or newly dug trenches. Somewhat like what Mab said in Battle Ground to Harry...and she said there was always a cost. All of which assumes the future can be changed in the first first place...isn't destiny supposed to have a say? Yes, I believe Mab said destiny is a stone-cold bitch.

You're LC proposal is an interesting one. But still a time loop, unless I am much mistaken. Which is a sort-of paradox I think. But perhaps I have misunderstood it. Harry changes Lash, which causes Lash and Harry to have Bonea, which causes Bonea to eventually become the Archive who eventually tells Harry to go back and fix LC because he would die then otherwise...and he then comes back to his present. Yes? Plus whatever other fixes in the timeline were needed.

Here is my theory on this, and how Jim was able to fib on it while telling the truth.  I do believe that person is either King Arthur, or the original Merlin.  It's true their English would be way different.  However I believe the Island allows Harry to understand anything that Harry wants to communicate with.  There were all manner of things trying to whisper to him.  Chances are they have been there for so long, and don't even know English, and yet Harry understood them.

If the person was say German, or Chinese, I think Harry would understand them but hear their accent even if they were speaking there native language.  It's all tied to the Island, and that no words are actually being spoken at all.  It's a form of telepathy.  So they think it, the Island deciphers it, and Harry understands it.
Well I think you're right about the psychic translator. But I will add something. Almost every British character, or character/being with a British accent, is a villain in the series. Likely this is a leftover from a well-known trope. In point of fact, even some of the British characters that are not out-and-out villains...are still suspect.

So even if this person is Harry, or King Arthur, or whoever...they have a better than not chance of being a villain.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: morriswalters on June 13, 2021, 01:46:18 PM
Jim picked time travel when he said that book 20 would be the time travel book. So like or don't like it, somebody is going to do it. 

There are only two ways to go.  You can go back or you can go ahead. If you go forward which future do you go to.  This is how we live, do your best and hope it all works out.  Or you can go back and set up the tools to help you make those decisions.

All I'm suggesting with Bonea is that she can be used to avoid the bootstrap paradox. How does Harry survive  so that he can go back to fix LC.  If LC was fixed without time travel then there is only two characters on the page who could have fixed it, and there is no mystery.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Yuillegan on June 13, 2021, 02:33:19 PM
Oh I like it, and I am sure he will do it. Not everyone feels the same of course. I was speaking more generally about time travel.

Well, we're all going ahead technically. Just one small amount of nanoseconds at a time, rather than big jumps of hours, days, months, years, decades etc.

I'll be interested to see what route Jim plans with the future. Is it one, pre-ordained timeline? Or is it multiple possible timelines, alternate universes? How do you even find them and select the right one?

Jim has compared it to bandwidth before. Do you turn a dial?

I think LC has to be a separate discussion. Too many issues with that problem alone, which I get the TT with Bonea is attempting to fix. But so far it's hard to see how they avoid the paradox...do you mind explaining it another way? My old brain isn't firing on all cylinders I think. Also, how does Dresden return after he goes back to fix LC? Where does he go from there?
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: Snark Knight on June 13, 2021, 04:46:55 PM
And of course Molly then becomes MAB later. So she killed herself, somehow, and later travels back in time. At which point early-Harry/Merlin will cast her out to become the cold Mab from the current still-human Molly.

Then how would Corb remember her as, apparently, a teenager? She's already twenty-something.
Title: Re: Wild WAG Sunday
Post by: morriswalters on June 13, 2021, 04:58:10 PM
The bootstrap paradox is about how information moves from the present to the future.  If Harry dies on first use of LC how does he know to fix it so that he doesn't die.  This is a discontinuity. It's like drawing a circle with a gap.  How do you bridge the gap? Anybody can do it who has knowledge of both events.

1.  Lash breaks LC in order to convince Harry to pick up the coin.
2.  Harry doesn't die on first use.
3.  Lash knows that someone interfered, but not who.
4.  Lash is changed by Harry.
5.  In the future Bonea shares the info and they go back.

Being Merlin in the past is about putting in place all the tools that will be needed in the BAT.  It isn't about changing the past.  Harry has already done these things as Merlin.  The loop is once and done.  This is what he was born to do.  Bonea as Lash was a Fallen through all these events and knew of them.  She is the one who closes the  gap.  The events up until Harry reemerges from his cell have always happened.  Harry didn't die on first use or any of the other times he has faced death. Which is why Odin says,"Perhaps you already have.", when Harry asks if he can stop the attack on Demonreach. Odin doesn't know how, he only knows that he did.