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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on July 11, 2023, 07:47:56 PM
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Is that the White Council pushing back to protect humanity? If humans are “so dangerous” in large groups why did these supernatural nations allow the population to get so large and powerful?
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Because the White God told the pantheon gods to get out of reality and have nothing more to do with humanity or to surrender their immortality and stay.
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Because the White God told the pantheon gods to get out of reality and have nothing more to do with humanity or to surrender their immortality and stay.
At last I am not a lone voice in the wilderness. Mab is the maximum power lever the WG will allow in the mortal world, anyone more powerful had to divest themselves of power (Odin) stay in the Never Never (Hades), or end up in Demonreach (Ethnui). It should be noted the WG had three champions in play when Ethnui came out of hiding Harry, Butters and Sanya (with the latter two there to save Harry from himself so he could do his thing).
I believe the White God is also responsible for thresholds and the protection they offer to humanity and perhaps dawn breaking down magic, as well as many of the limitations the Supernaturals operate under.
This left the Supernaturals powerful enough to be a threat and a spur to humanities evolution, technology and civilisation.
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I do think that the Pantheon Gods had a role in this but not so much in holding down humanity as they held down science.
The Pantheon Gods all wanted their specific worshipers to flourish as that increased their power. They also wanted to keep the Outsiders away. In the past, various pantheons guarded the Outer Gates and that is to the benefit of all humanity.
As humanity grew, so did science and technology, which are the forces which allow humanity to resist the Supernatural Nations. The Supernaturals want to keep humanity down, but the tipping point in the race against science came during the Renaissance. After that, humanity expanded too quickly for them to keep up.
So they went into "hiding". The strongest faction, the Fae Courts, still had the role of Outer Gate protectors and the rest need humanity in various predator/prey relationships.
And there we have the White Council, zipping around the planet and interfering when the predators get too much of an upper hand or turn abusive. The Angels step in when their renegades or the Outsiders break the rules but usually work through agents and behind the scenes.
So, humanity keeps moving forward, in large part blissfully unaware of the conflicts in the magical world but there are factions with knowledge outside the White Council. I think the ultimate goal of the Dresden Files is for humanity to put together the magical and scientific worlds and take charge of it's own destiny.
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We have WOJ the Greco- Roman pantheon held the Gates before the Fae and that elements of that pantheon poured power into the Mantles of the Winter Court, Harry’s guess as to the mothers names indicates that.
We also have a WOJ that his wrestling book involves much of that pantheon are pro-wrestlers suggesting they accepted the power down option and are tapping the adulation of their fans to maintain that power. I suspect many wanted ‘out’ like Mac from the perpetual conflict.
All the original gods, angels and Titans existed before linear time, the White God created linear time for humanity to evolve, and in doing so expelled the Outsiders, I suspect because the White God is a version of the singularity, and will only come into existence when humanity, and its technology reach a certain point which has yet to happen, but will in the BAT. When created the White God is not bound by linear time but still has to close the circle and the Outsiders want to disrupt that destrying the Outer Gates. The Fallen on the other hand want their version of the White God created, hence the Fall. The Fallen and the Outsiders therefore have their own agendas which occasionally intercept this is why Nicky thinks he is a saint, he is trying to bring about the Fallen version of the White God, with Lucifer as the core of that entity and why he fears Fallen cooperation with Outsiders which is where Cowl comes in, who has his own agenda as Master of the Future, perhaps his own version of the White God with him as the core of that entity.
The creation of the Denarians and in response the Swords were the opening gambit in the battle by the Fallen for control of the White God, we are in the endgame as Listen indicates with the control of the White God being decided by the Starborn/Destroyer i.e. Harry. Harry is not going to be the core entity of the White God though. I think that will be either Uriel or Michael (although the latter is good candidate for taking up the Kringle Mantle when Odin dies in the BAT/Ragnarok) Harry is John the Baptist to the White God. He could become the White God, because the White God is an Intellectus, and Harry is an unreliable narrator and makes mistakes in the narrative.
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... As humanity grew, so did science and technology, which are the forces which allow humanity to resist the Supernatural Nations. The Supernaturals want to keep humanity down, but the tipping point in the race against science came during the Renaissance. After that, humanity expanded too quickly for them to keep up ...
This, I think. But in particular: I don't think most of the Supernaturals really "get" science, don't understand what a tremendous potency it can have.
And as Harry often says, they generally run very-conservative in outlook, slow to act & even slower to recognize that they might need to act.
Exponential population-growth & humanity's observe/experiment/improve rinse-lather-repeat treatment of the natural world really combined in ways that I suspect only the Denarians (and a very few others) had recognized would happen (I bet the Black Death was Anduriel's attempt to slow down humans!).
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We have WOJ the Greco- Roman pantheon held the Gates before the Fae and that elements of that pantheon poured power into the Mantles of the Winter Court, Harry’s guess as to the mothers names indicates that.
The Dresden Files Podcast interview of December, 2020, has Jim saying that the various pantheons traded off until TWG told them to scram. Then a sponsor came forward to set up the fae courts. The fae had always been the foot soldiers guarding the gates and the pantheon gods provided the muscle. The sponsor replaced the pantheon gods in backing up the fae and put Winter (and some Summer) on the job at the Outer Gates.
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At last I am not a lone voice in the wilderness. Mab is the maximum power lever the WG will allow in the mortal world, anyone more powerful had to divest themselves of power (Odin) stay in the Never Never (Hades), or end up in Demonreach (Ethnui).
I believe the White God is also responsible for thresholds and the protection they offer to humanity and perhaps dawn breaking down magic, as well as many of the limitations the Supernaturals operate under.
This left the Supernaturals powerful enough to be a threat and a spur to humanities evolution, technology and civilisation.
I don't think it's LET so much as can handle. Angel's are bigger for instance? Though I think they have a specific quality of being exactly the same on every level. They reflect in reality what they are in totality? Though, this I think is part and parcel of the cycles alluded to. Woj is they do believe they're the originals, but just a bit of thinking about how dragons used to hold the same positions of authority and were involved in actually shaping Earth and that seems wrong.
I think the primary difference between TWG and angels power wise is actually, home turf advantage, guest rites(falling is an action that causes revocation, breaking of guest rites) and of course, outsiders trying to zombie beat their way in with the walkers just busting in spiritually as whisps of nothing holding 44's to mug reality for bits to use as its own.
I agree, sorta. It's the things he champion that are aligned with guest law. Love, hope and faith are part of what define reality and their effects pervade it. Easiest seen with the fae. Love forms thresholds which they must respect. Faith is in keeping ones faith, ones word and hope is doing ones duty
I suspect because the White God is a version of the singularity, and will only come into existence when humanity, and its technology reach a certain point which has yet to happen, but will in the BAT. When created the White God is not bound by linear time but still has to close the circle and the Outsiders want to disrupt that destrying the Outer Gates. The Fallen on the other hand want their version of the White God created, hence the Fall.
.want to BD their own WG mostly, especially Nic. Though with Marcones selfless evil, we'll see..
Now your speaking my language tho because yes, yes, yes. It keeps happening.. Merlin and DR are just the most recent variant(and maybe not even that considering)of the full circle.
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There is a WOJ that the Enlightenment was a WC project of a previous Merlin. Plus most supernaturals seem to view humanity has cattle. And probably helped humanity to develop especially the white court. Since they believe cities are kennels
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The White Court treat humans as prey, deer to be taken from the wild, the Red Court preyed them as cattle. They consider Wizards, capable of fighting back as some sort of mutant. I do wonder if the White and Red Courts are responsible for Wizards through the process of natural selection. Those humans best equipped to detect vampires and fight back are those which survived and bred. In parallel those humans able to make tools and weapons to fight back were also naturally selected.
The curse on wizards causing them to hex technology may also be from the White God to force these two lines of natural selection to compete against each other in dealing with the supernatural . It may end when the circle is complete. The earlier version of the curse (facial disfigurement and souring milk )etc had exactly the same purpose, keeping wizards from joining in with wider society.
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It's not a curse, they're spirits of luck. Of wyrd things happening in the old school meaning. Milk was left out to sour because it was believe it attracted bad luck spirits to bleed their energy off into. Now it happens with things usually taken to freak chance. You're right about the beings being fed into the courts, but the parts intentionally left out.. like Lachesis' loom.(shown in MW cottage intentionally)Magic is what has classically been the way Fate enforces itself, especially active fate. When free will became standard they had to shove that power somewhere, they gave it to wizards via giving it to humanity with free Will. Greco Roman held the wall eh? Well Greco Roman still had both humans and Gods bow to Fate. Now they don't.
I'm sure I'm forgetting something 🤔
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Exponential population-growth & humanity's observe/experiment/improve rinse-lather-repeat treatment of the natural world really combined in ways that I suspect only the Denarians (and a very few others) had recognized would happen (I bet the Black Death was Anduriel's attempt to slow down humans!).
And likely more plagues besides.
The interesting question is, was that for simple mustache-twirling villainy, or a sense of purpose? Such as, trying to constrain the population of possible Outsider-summoners?
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... The interesting question is, was that for simple mustache-twirling villainy, or a sense of purpose? Such as, trying to constrain the population of possible Outsider-summoners?
Why not both?
I mean... they aren't "generic" villains, they're out to win souls for Hell.
Remember how Chauncy talked about his mother in Book 1 -- they thought she was coming to them (until her sudden redemption-arc with Malcolm Dresden).
But I'm pretty sure Anduriel (like Mab) usually makes layered & multifaceted plans, that advance multiple agendas at once.
So, Black Death ==> make people miserable ==> more people despairing & desperate, and doing Bad Things(tm)
But also: destroy literacy in Europe, set back multiple sorts of progress, etc. Keep humanity downtrodden.
I'd bet on some specific other things, like destroying the Church's cache of records on Denarians.
I'd also bet on other Denarians' involvement, and specific agendas of theirs, over & above whateve Anduriel was working on.
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Some good points.
Would like to add my own Headcannon WAGS:
Odin is the former Gatekeeper- One eyed, Soulfire and everything.
Einherjaars original purpose was to Guard the Outer Gates. The Cream of Dead Warriors gets you a steady supply of Millions over the Millenia.
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Is that the White Council pushing back to protect humanity? If humans are “so dangerous” in large groups why did these supernatural nations allow the population to get so large and powerful?
The Council and the Church between them cut a lot of the major supernaturals down to size, one way or another, and even in the modern world, the human race shelters in the protection of both, mostly without knowing it.
The Council themselves intentionally encouraged the rise of the Enlightenment and the acceptance of the scientific method, per WoJ a while back. It kind of got out of hand from their POV, but it still limited the power of the other supernaturals. The technological/industrial/high tech agricultural revolution, in turn, enabled the immense population increases of the last few centuries.
A lot of the supernaturals would probably love to cut the human race back down to size, but, again, the Council and the Church are in the way, and humanity is strong on its own now too, and the supernaturals are riven by their own rivalries as always.
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I think The Denarians attempt of an apocalypse by releasing the Black Plague was a method of stopping the advancement of humanity is science, culture, standard of living etc
The theory that the Black Plague/ Dark Ages set humanity back centuries isn't anything new.
We know the Denarians had a hand in that and that the OG Merlin did his best to preserve humanity- saving the Library of Alexandria, setting up the Catholic Church as a repository of knowledge, helping set up the Fae Courts.
It makes sense he had Supernatural enemies fighting against him on those fronts Denarians being one of the front runners, probably Drakul, as well and atleast one or two dragons depending on the Arthurian myth.
The interesting pivot for me about Supernatural influence on humanities advancement is
1. The Venatores. Who have arguably done countless damage to various supernatural beings over the millenia.
2. Kemmler: WW1 was a melting pot of advanced technologies of the time used in war. Do you think Kemmler could have pulled off such a monumental war without those advancements. i.e. the rest of the twentieth century that followed.
3. White Council Wizards themselves probably didn't anticipate how advanced computer systems would be developed and that they'd be at a severe disadvantage in the modern world because of it. WC was a victim of their own success of the advancement of humanity.
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Jim has actually talked about this at cons and the like. A lotof it is on the white council. They patronized and mentored many of the great minds of the Renaissance and englightenment eras, and presumablythey helped stuf a lot of the big bad dudes into demoreach. Any given supernatural being isn't necessarily going to understand the significance of one particular monkeyworking out that you can skip the river part of a water wheel if you boil water in an enclosed space to generate steam, for example. I'm betting most of the beings who would really have worked hard to stop humanity's ascension didn't realize what was happening until the indistrial revolution was already underway. The less perceptive of them would probably have seen it as a good thing. The apes figured out fertilizer, sanitation, and engines, so they quadrupled their population in a century? Yay! More food. A human in 1800 wasn't all that much better off against a supernatural threat than one in 1080. Maybe worse off, because the authorities of the day were saying magical nonesense was a hoax. But cut ahead 150 years and suddenly they have radios, machine guns, and man portable high explosives.
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Consider Nemesis repeating"apocalypse is a state of mind". The denarians aren't creating the apocalypse, they're feeding off of the little apocalypses they create. Which prevents others from being impowered by, or concentrating too much "apocalypse" energy into any one spot.
Causing pain and suffering=more power for bonded denarian yea? They're feeding. And what does the intentional placement of an Apex predator on a food chain do to competing predators trying to move into the same area? Pretty much that.
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If I were a cattle rancher, would I consider myself more rich with more cattle or with less cattle? Particularly, when the cattle feed, clothe and largely police themselves. I think that is they answer.