A MOMENT OF SILENCE, PLEASE?Have you heard that Jim's now planning for the next book Twelve Months to be about Harry dealing with his trauma?
On my first read, Murphy's death and Harry's response, as well as the memorial service, felt REALLY . . . rushed? Unexplored? I understand Harry couldn't stop to process, but we can hear his whole internal monologue, and thoughts of Murphy seemed to fade away almost insultingly soon after she herself did. Especially when Harry said, "it would hurt, but I would heal"--I get the stoicism, but that just felt SO abrupt and rather out of character? I'm quite worried about the "chilling effect" of Winter on Harry . . .
... We've met Murphy's family!
I really hope it's the former. Jim can write a book that takes place over the course of something more than a few days. None of his other books take place in the crunch of time that we usually see in the DF.
Yeah. I didn't mean physical trauma. Harry didn't really have much/any from BG to deal with, at least compared to his typical outing.
Have you heard that Jim's now planning for the next book Twelve Months to be about Harry dealing with his trauma?
I made the mistake of skimming Reddit for reactions first, and found a vein of anti-Karrin sentiment that surprised me and bummed me out! :-\)There's a lot of hate for Murph and I don't really get it. If she was the same character from Fool Moon, I'd get it, but she's not. She's grown a lot.
...
Also, as a footnote, I really want better for Molly than gradually wearing down the guy she's idolized since high school who's never seen her that way . . . for years now . . . !
So, this is my first-ever post here.Welcome! :)
I started reading these books in my late teens, and I felt like it was one of the first times I'd seen my own anger and struggles with trust reflected in a character I could both admire and relate to so closely.
Hey, two things I want to point out. With some of us fans, it wasn't Murphy hate. It was Murphy fatigue. She was it every book. The only break for the character was in DB. If she had taken more time off instead of being a workaholic, maybe we wouldn't have had fatigue of her.
And a personal pet peeve. Molly isn't a recent teen anymore. She's on the downhill to 30. I know that people while reading imprint a character to how they look when they are first introduced. But this is the Dresden Files. Everyone grows up and changes. With everything she has gone through, mentality she is probably over 30. She still loves Harry, but isn't actively pursuing him anymore. She knows what is more important and responsibilities come first.
Ok, I'm done on my soapbox. Sorry for the rant.
There was a lady cop of 5’0,LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who steadfastly refused to grow,
When attacked by a troll,
Her eyes she did roll,
And gave it maximum woe.
It was Murphy fatigue. She was it every book. . . . Molly isn't a recent teen anymore. She's on the downhill to 30.
I don't mean to argue with anyone who does experience Murphy fatigue! Different personalities, different character resonances! I think part of what's happening for me--I do like to "plug myself in" as a character, and (being a woman) once a character is gorgeous, BAM! up goes the wall. I'm never going to be able to imagine myself *as* Molly, or *as* Lara. Like, every time they're described, I kinda feel badly about myself. ::) Without Murphy, I go from being *in* the story, to a spectator. (I'm literally a short blond disaffected Catholic 35-year-old . . . named Karen.)
I really like the poetry y'all. ;D
I'm glad to hear it now!
I think I freaked myself out that the quick acceleration of Lara/Molly meant that Jim himself has gotten tired of Karrin and writing her. (I made the mistake of skimming Reddit for reactions first, and found a vein of anti-Karrin sentiment that surprised me and bummed me out! :-\)
In terms of "played for laughs," I think the ground frosting over around Molly as she and Lara walked away after Mab's pronouncement was meant to be funny . . . but it was definitely too soon for me!
Also, as a footnote, I really want better for Molly than gradually wearing down the guy she's idolized since high school who's never seen her that way . . . for years now . . . !
But I mourned Murphy too. OK, I admit I didn't really mourn Murphy but more Harry's loss. I don't have any particular feelings for or against Murphy, but I like what she means to Harry.That's where I'm at. I never really felt that Murphy added anything unique in the books.
That's where I'm at. I never really felt that Murphy added anything unique in the books.
I don't think Jim can do homoerotic, but it might be interesting. His only foray into the subject was awkward.Well, intentionally anyway, this was the book where Harry got so distracted staring at Marcone's muscles that Marcone had to call him back to reality (and converted Priscellie).
Well, intentionally anyway, this was the book where Harry got so distracted staring at Marcone's muscles that Marcone had to call him back to reality (and converted Priscellie).
There is also all the Bradley stuff which is also unintentional.
“Here,” came the answer. He came walking around the curving path toward us a few moments later, wearing only his undershirt beneath his heavy denim jacket. I hadn’t seen him wearing that little before. Michael had some serious pecs. Maybe I should work out. He was carrying with both hands part of his blue-and-white denim shirt folded into a careful bundle in front of him.Upon further consideration, maybe he's a bit more bi than he's willing to admit.
Sanya came along behind Michael, soaking wet, his chest bare underneath his coat. Never mind Michael’s pecs. Sanya made us both look like we needed to eat more wheat germ or something. He was carrying Esperacchius and Amoracchius over one shoulder—and Kincaid over the other.
[1]As a cop as a foil for the P.I. Harry, she was perfect. [2]When she got booted off the police force he had a hard time getting her to fit anywhere.1. I don't really see that. 2. I think it would have been easy enough to find a role for her.
1. I don't really see that. 2. I think it would have been easy enough to find a role for her.Oh they are better than expected. ;D
Everyone's forgetting Luccio. So right now Harry's done the deed with 3 women who are still alive and two who aren't. I'm not saying those are good odds.
1. I don't really see that. 2. I think it would have been easy enough to find a role for her.
You have to remember how she was in the first three books. She was a thorn in Harry's side, being an obstacle for him to work around, or a distraction. It wasn't until book 4 that the dynamic changed.
As for finding a place, she was losing pace to the rest of the group. She wasn't getting a power up. And she was black balled from any law enforcement agency, which was who she was to the core of her being. She lost her job for Harry, which the trade off for losing it was her being able to have a relationship with him. So no job, losing step to the supernatural group, no powerup to work with, there really wasn't a place for her anymore that was in the main part of the story. She was just slowing Harry down.
You have to remember how she was in the first three books. She was a thorn in Harry's side, being an obstacle for him to work around, or a distraction.I think it was just the first two books. I can see an argument for a distraction in GP, but I disagree.
And she was black balled from any law enforcement agency, which was who she was to the core of her being.People change, especially when they have to.
As for finding a place, she was losing pace to the rest of the group. She wasn't getting a power up. ... So no job, losing step to the supernatural group, no powerup to work with, there really wasn't a place for her anymore that was in the main part of the story. She was just slowing Harry down.Murphy's physical prowess was never what made her a threat to the supernatural. They all had her beat physically. It was her willingness to admit the supernatural existed and then deal with it intelligently. Jim could have easily moved her into a command and control position instead of a combat position. She would have been perfect for helping Harry run whatever group he's planning on going with if she could have adjusted to not being on the front lines. She had done that in plenty of books. Sure, she was moving away from it by BR, but she was still filling a largely non-combat role as late as TC. She was also being more of a leader than we've ever seen her be in GS. The groundwork was all there for a difficult, and maybe failed, transition from a front line soldier to a leader.
Murphy's physical prowess was never what made her a threat to the supernatural. They all had her beat physically. It was her willingness to admit the supernatural existed and then deal with it intelligently. Jim could have easily moved her into a command and control position instead of a combat position. She would have been perfect for helping Harry run whatever group he's planning on going with if she could have adjusted to not being on the front lines. She had done that in plenty of books. Sure, she was moving away from it by BR, but she was still filling a largely non-combat role as late as TC. She was also being more of a leader than we've ever seen her be in GS. The groundwork was all there for a difficult, and maybe failed, transition from a front line soldier to a leader.I think Her trying and failing to make the transition only to fall into a some form of depression or desperation that would have her seek a way from some faction to get back in the field and have Harry and Karrin having to deal with the fact that like Harry being the WK, she would have someone that would give her orders that may put her on opposite Harry would have been better then what we got with the almost lazy way Murph's death was done and Harry brushing off the hurt and grief of her death off BS after Butters snaps him back to his senses. That Butcher gave us in BG
I know I said I didn't care what Jim did with her the last time we had this debate, but I'm starting to think her trying to make the transition, failing, and then dying as she takes the field would have made a better end to her character arc than her never really trying in the first place.
I'm still undecided on whether her trying and succeeding would have been a better or worse story choice than what we got. It probably would depend entirely on the execution.
I think Her trying and failing to make the transition only to fall into a some form of depression or desperation that would have her seek a way from some faction to get back in the field and have Harry and Karrin having to deal with the fact that like Harry being the WK, she would have someone that would give her orders that may put her on opposite Harry would have been better then what we got with the almost lazy way Murph's death was done and Harry brushing off the hurt and grief of her death off BS after Butters snaps him back to his senses. That Butcher gave us in BG
“I approached the Merlin, catching him unawares, kissing him long and hard.”
“Shagnasty, well that speaks for itself
We will see murphy in memory form in Twelve Months I do not doubt like we have Malcolm, very likely to see her physically in Mirror, Mirror.
So no job, losing step to the supernatural group, no powerup to work with, there really wasn't a place for [Murphy] anymore that was in the main part of the story. She was just slowing Harry down.
On the other hand, I always suspected that losing Murphy would be the thing that flips Harry "dark"--and yes, he freaked out, but no, (with an assist) he didn't flip. That was a refreshing anti-trope. Of course Rudolph's still out there . . .
On my first read, Murphy's death and Harry's response, as well as the memorial service, felt REALLY . . . rushed? Unexplored? I understand Harry couldn't stop to process, but we can hear his whole internal monologue, and thoughts of Murphy seemed to fade away almost insultingly soon after she herself did. Especially when Harry said, "it would hurt, but I would heal"--I get the stoicism, but that just felt SO abrupt and rather out of character? I'm quite worried about the "chilling effect" of Winter on Harry . . .
I hope Twelve Months allows Harry to investigate his father’s death and his adoption by Justin, it would allow him to deal better with more recent trauma like the loss of Murphy, and the Wardens, and the folk in his banner. To properly assess his future, Harry needs to know his past.
Hey, two things I want to point out. With some of us fans, it wasn't Murphy hate. It was Murphy fatigue. She was it every book. The only break for the character was in DB. If she had taken more time off instead of being a workaholic, maybe we wouldn't have had fatigue of her.
Murphy’s new status as a follower of Odin
I think that more or less is the problem Jim ultimately had with her. As a cop as a foil for the P.I. Harry, she was perfect. When she got booted off the police force he had a hard time getting her to fit anywhere. He had turned her into a moralizing five foot nothing wonder woman, which didn't add a whole lot to the books.
Elaine is still breathing which makes her a possible villain. I don't think Jim can do homoerotic, but it might be interesting. His only foray into the subject was awkward. Mab was virtual, the real Harry was back broke in Chi Town during the brief but torrid live stream. But she may yet be toast anyway.
I just don't see how Murphy has been a foil for Murphy. I really think she was more like Harry than different from him. Butters (before he became a Jedi), Michael, Marcone, Nicodemus, and maybe even Carlos are all better foils for different aspects of Harry's character than Murphy was. I'm not big on literary analysis, so I could be missing something. I prefer a more Watsonian approach.
but I'm starting to think her trying to make the transition, failing, and then dying as she takes the field would have made a better end to her character arc than her never really trying in the first place.
I'm still undecided on whether her trying and succeeding would have been a better or worse story choice than what we got. It probably would depend entirely on the execution.
I'm just wondering how Jim killing Murphy is going to hurt his fan base and yes he pleased the Murph-haters, but was it worth the cost I wonder have had a lot friends that are not happy and feel like Butcher wasted their time and money for 17 books only to get a giant middle finger.
I guess one has to look at it as Gard did, the whole of her life, but I wouldn't call it death with dignity..
I really hoped that Murphy would die by a freshly killed Jotun falling on her rather than something like death by Rudy, once it became apparent she had been marked for death.
I mean there were interesting dark way to explore such characters, but ulimately Jim is well not that dark of a writer. He'll rather kill a character, than push it really into darkness, unless it's straight up villain. I think in a way it's simmilar with Thomas who also was sort of killed in Battle Ground. I mean we get really dark in quite gutwrenching way with him in Turn Coat, but it basically passed in a next book when he was needed for team!Dresden this darkness was basically gone, then we get solving his true love by more powerful force of threesomes, and in book 14 he's ally again. (Sure it ended with Justine's nemfection but that fabular aspect - not character development).
If Thomas was Nemfected and did it as part of a plan, but was hurt too much and was not able to use his Awesome Walker Powers before getting stuck in coffin, I'd way way prefer it.
Basically rather than one Justine make it live five people influenced by bilocating Walker - making this Xanatos Gambit more believable.
Well in theory change happened between Changes and Cold Days, and what sort of ripped Thomas out of whampire life was Dresden's death.
In "Changes" he is theoretically on bad guy side still, he even is bit selfish and goes full to Dresden help after he realises he is threatened by curse as well.
I also think he was trying to push Harry away. He did kill to live, and he's trying to deal with it. Maybe he even enjoyed it in the moment. But I think his "I did it and I love it, that's what I am now." was hiding his pain at what he did. I don't think he was as dark side as he was putting on.
Well in theory change happened between Changes and Cold Days, and what sort of ripped Thomas out of whampire life was Dresden's death.This.
In "Changes" he is theoretically on bad guy side still, he even is bit selfish and goes full to Dresden help after he realises he is threatened by curse as well.
I also think he was trying to push Harry away. He did kill to live, and he's trying to deal with it. Maybe he even enjoyed it in the moment. But I think his "I did it and I love it, that's what I am now." was hiding his pain at what he did. I don't think he was as dark side as he was putting on.Also this.
Or Harry gets married to Molly and Lara at the same time.
Although to be honest I wish that he had made Rudolph do it on purpose so that Harry could have justifiably killed him on the spot because that would have been far more delicious.
"Look. This happens to everyone the first time. Normally when you kill a man. But for you a dog. So what? There's no shame in it. You remember your first time, Garo? My first time, Afghanistan. We were moving through a house and... suddenly a man was there and I shot him in the stomach. Yeah, that's a real war story. There are never any good stories like in movies - they're shit. A man was there, boom... stomach. I was so scared I didn't pull the trigger again for the rest of the day. I thought, well, that's it, Bacho. You put a bullet in someone. You're not you anymore. You'll never be you again. But then you wake up the next morning and you're still you. And you realize: that was you all along. You just didn't know."
--It gives Harry a Vengeance Angle, more so than he had. It makes it really personal, and given that she was in 17 books with him, it particularly well established. I love a good revenge.
I'm not sure that's where it's going. Especially since Rudolph was beaten and Ethniu imprisoned.
I mean I dont think Ethniu was really the main player. As always, something else is going on behind the scenes, and when Dresden finds out what it is...its gonna be clobbering time.
Ultimately the direction I hope the story goes in is that Murphy becomes Harry's main vengeance/sorrow, and he stays up late drinking and smoking and hanging around Macs bar. He will start his "Winter Harem" with at least Molly and Lara as members. He puts both intellectus's on the end of his staff so that they can utter witty male/female banter in battle. Castle Dresden will have its walls lined by Harry's dead enemies heads on spikes. Also Dresden starts using Murphy's glock as his primary sidearm. Dresden will finally unleash the potential Mab saw in him from the beginning, to become a righteous killing machine laying waste to all the bad guys in the story.
kat7: I just wanted to say that Murphy was a very good character and she will be missed. And I suspect we will see some version of her again, perhaps flashbacks in 12 months, and an alt-version in Mirror Mirror.We see her again because mirror mirror Murphy decides to follow a better Harry into a better world ;D
(I have not read the whole thread yet)
Seriously, perhaps in MM, Harry can soulgaze Murph?
All well and good, but what is the point of all of this? How does it further the story?Well Mirror Mirror Murphy is actually a valkyrie and can stay at Harry’s side until the end ;D
All well and good, but what is the point of all of this? How does it further the story?
As I said, it could show us something that we will be waiting to happen for many books. Her reaction will tell us things too. MM Murphy is, as far as I know, our Murphy (in the sense that she is not the one taking divergent actions). She is not inlove of his Harry, she probably is not her friend either, but her character is the same. So when she sees our Harry she will react more or less like our Murphy would. And Harry would have a lovely memory of her for ever.
"Because we don't like that Murph is dead" is literally the main reason for everyone saying she needs to come back from Mirror Mirror/Gard was wrong and she can show up as a Valkyrie/Whatever other third reason.
Which, fair enough, there are characters I'd like to see again (in both this and other series). But realistically speaking most of the time characters are killed it's because their part in the narrative is done.
So no, there's no real furtherance in the story in bringing Murphy back. But yeah, people will miss her and want her to return.
All well and good, but what is the point of all of this? How does it further the story?
Well Mirror Mirror Murphy is actually a valkyrie and can stay at Harry’s side until the end
She is not inlove of his Harry, she probably is not her friend either, but her character is the same. So when she sees our Harry she will react more or less like our Murphy would. And Harry would have a lovely memory of her for ever.
"Because we don't like that Murph is dead" is literally the main reason for everyone saying she needs to come back from Mirror Mirror/Gard was wrong and she can show up as a Valkyrie/Whatever other third reason.
Which, fair enough, there are characters I'd like to see again (in both this and other series). But realistically speaking most of the time characters are killed it's because their part in the narrative is done.
So no, there's no real furtherance in the story in bringing Murphy back. But yeah, people will miss her and want her to return.
And we may see non powered up warrior princess Murphy in the BAT when the rules are thrown out the window, but by then the Murphy we knew is long gone. She may not even have her memory anymore
I don't know why we assume it's gonna be lovely on his side.
It won't be lovely on his side, but we won't know what Murphy sees, only how she reacts. But we will see what he sees, and that would be lovely because I don't think fundamentally is going to be that different to what he saw under his Sight.
That is it. Because mirror. Harry made the wrong choice mirror reality is crumbling despite’s Mirror Murphy the Valkyrie’s desperate efforts to prevent it. At the last moment she and Harry escape the mirror world to Harry ‘s original world and together they promise each other to do everything to save this world from the outsider collapse.
We'll see. And well he'll probably gonna SG himself - so it's possible we will know what Murphy sees.No! That is what Mirror Harry the denarian necromancer with his vampire ally Mavra tried to do but Murphy escaped that fate by becoming a Valkyrie.
No please, please - no alt!Murphy in our universe. Kill her if you must, but just no.
(Unless she's a blampire and will fight Einherjar!Murphy in "Stars and Stones")
We'll see. And well he'll probably gonna SG himself - so it's possible we will know what Murphy sees.
No please, please - no alt!Murphy in our universe. Kill her if you must, but just no.
(Unless she's a blampire and will fight Einherjar!Murphy in "Stars and Stones")
No, whatever is inside MM Harry soul is not the same that is in OG Harry.
And I will say it again, I dislike the idea that Harry can change so much, so we better have an scenario where Harry does one or more bad decisions and that makes him vulnerable to dark forces that possess him. Not that he himself become evil.
Gosh, I really don't care for MM so much. I am dying for reading 12M though.
Me too.
But how sure is it that there will be a whole book. I have watched one interview where he said that. But to me it sounded like it was a new idea, that he doesn't know how to write that, but he feels, there has to be something about dealing with trauma in between.
I have the feeling, and I would be OK with this, if 12 Months would be a short story collection of 12 stories taking place in the 12 months between BG and the wedding.
Hopefully there won't be a wedding... But a collection of twelve short stories would be good, depending on how long it takes to get them out.Well, in an ideal world there will be an announcement at Christmas: "Hey weirdos, look what I've done. In the 6 years since Skin Game I have not only written a new book and splitted it in two, but I have also created a new short story collection, you can purchase NOW!"
I think the narrative structure of Twelve Months is going to be more like that of a fix up novel i.e. in the Golden Age of SF a writer would publish a number of connected short stories in the monthly magazines but would then republish them as a novel with additional and connective material. We have already had Christmas Eve.Jim doesn't seem capable of something like Foundation. I like him, but his latest outing isn't at anywhere near that level. The editors on those magazines would have smacked Jim silly. Twelve Months seems more like, I need to pay off my construction loans, then I need to write a book about Harry dealing with trauma.
No, whatever is inside MM Harry soul is not the same that is in OG Harry.
And I will say it again, I dislike the idea that Harry can change so much, so we better have an scenario where Harry does one or more bad decisions and that makes him vulnerable to dark forces that possess him. Not that he himself become evil.
Jim doesn't seem capable of something like Foundation. I like him, but his latest outing isn't at anywhere near that level. The editors on those magazines would have smacked Jim silly. Twelve Months seems more like, I need to pay off my construction loans, then I need to write a book about Harry dealing with trauma.
Dunno. I think if he wanted to pay off construction loan he would just invent extra book later dealing with some thrilling but not necessarily useful for metaplot shit - rather than delving into new risky territory of book unlike others. TI'd be careful assuming anything about a book that hasn't been written.
WOJ is - and I do not like it, but it is - that what's revealed by soulgaze is almost never changing. If Dresden has potential to become Darth Dresden but also Sir Harry we know - it will be shown in his soul - like Molly soul showed her potential of multiple fates, not just her current state.
So maybe it's not be 100% identical but quite probably 99%.
I'd be careful assuming anything about a book that hasn't been written.
Ah, but is it a process of pressure and change, or is it a process of polish and refinement? One could argue that the events that “changed” you in actuality only revealed a truer facet of your soul than had previously been perceiveable–that those events only changed you inasmuch as a rough diamond is changed by a master jeweler’s tools. The diamond doesn’t become an emerald–it just becomes a more beautiful and quinessential diamond.
(Just Devil’s Advocating here, for the most part, and throwing that thought out.)
In any case, it may just be possible for a person to change enough for a soulgaze to reveal something else–but it would have to be an utterly incredible kind of change. Something along the lines of the billionaire executive who, after a near-death experience, gives all his worldly goods to charity, leaves home in his pajamas, and takes up a life of underwater basket-weaving and meditation. And even that seems a little mild to me, thinking of it.
Anyway, it’d take a truly epic change of heart and mind–to the point where you would practically *be* a whole different person, and not just a person who happens to be you with a lot more life experience to inform his outlook.
(And, in fact, there’s all sorts of theories about people who this happens to after a near-death experience, regarding “walk-in” souls who come and inhabit a person near death, changing them and becoming a kind of inner Yoda to the “native” soul.)
All of the above, of course, is more or less a discussion of angels dancing on the heads of pins, but it’s fun.
About the fateful moment, a reddit user mentioned this
In Changes, cap 34 there is a whole scene where they spoke about terrorists, as in, "ok, no vampires but terrorists" and all that jazz, but there is also an interesting foreshadowing.
Rudolph says "They aren't paying you any more slack, bitch. You are gone." and then Harry thinks
"Something dark and ugly stirred in my chest, and the sudden image of Rudolph pinned to the wall by a ton of cristalline ice popped into my brain."
Not only foreshadowing but...could it be a wizard premonition?
Seriously, perhaps in MM, Harry can soulgaze Murph?