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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Willowhugger on December 25, 2006, 06:24:48 AM

Title: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Willowhugger on December 25, 2006, 06:24:48 AM
An interesting question and especially appropriate one to fiction where the protagonist might be a vampire, wizard, world's greatest fighter, or so on.

:-)
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: terioncalling on December 25, 2006, 06:52:41 AM
Should never be too powerful.  If they're too powerful, then there is nothing to throw them up against.  The good protagonists are the one's where they have weaknesses that can be exploited by those around them and not be all powerful.  They can be beaten down but will get up and fight back though they're beaten and battered to hell'n back.

Harry's a grand example of a good protagonist in my opinion.

Hence why Superman has never been a good protagonist in my mind.  He's just too powerful and the only thing that can bring him down is kryptonite.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Willowhugger on December 25, 2006, 07:14:21 AM
Hence why Superman has never been a good protagonist in my mind.  He's just too powerful and the only thing that can bring him down is kryptonite.

Well obviously something works about Superman because he's been 70 years at this point without missing a beat and will easily make it to 100.  I think the biggest problem with Superman is the "perception of power" with him.  Superman can't accomplish everything but everyone feels he can. 

Oftentimes, the perception of a lead's power is more important than his actual level of it.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagonist be?
Post by: SirThinks2Much on December 25, 2006, 09:55:18 AM

Well obviously something works about Superman because he's been 70 years at this point without missing a beat and will easily make it to 100.  I think the biggest problem with Superman is the "perception of power" with him.  Superman can't accomplish everything but everyone feels he can. 

Oftentimes, the perception of a lead's power is more important than his actual level of it.

A very good point. No matter how powerful a character is, if everyone just expects him to do everything, his limitations will become evident. Also, he'll cross the moral line of letting people decide their fate for themselves.

To quote Luthor from Superman: Red Son: "Why don't you just put the whole WORLD in a BOTTLE, Superman?"

In response to the OP, though, every protagonist should have a weakness that actually can hinder his/her performance. Take for example, Vampire Hunter D: he's got the goods, i.e. immortality, super strength/speed, some vampiric abilities--but is susceptible to sunlight and the darker side of his vampiric nature. Not to mention that everyone, human and vampire included, tend to hate his guts. (okay he kills all the bad guys anyway, he's kind of a bad example.  :P )

In any case, a character can have weaknesses aside from physical limitations. Psychological, emotional, and personality issues can affect a protagonist negatively.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Abstruse on December 27, 2006, 03:49:54 PM
Your protagonist's power is directly related to the antagonist's power.  He should have JUST enough power to be able to beat the antagonist at the end, but only by the skin of his teeth and probably by using several things to his advantage (situational conditions, the Holy Magic Artifact of Gobbledygook, etc).  Your main character can be a god as long as there's a stronger god smacking him down.  Audiences love rooting for an underdog, but at the same time in most genres, they want larger than life characters.  So your wizard/vampire/psychic alien android may be able to destroy and entire city with his powers, but the bad guy better be able to destroy the whole state (which is much more impressive in my hometown because I live in Austin, TX).

Oh, and remember that the baddie in Book 2 has to be stronger than the one in Book 1, otherwise it's boring.  I mean, who wants to see Rocky kick the crap out of a heavyweight champion, then in the sequel fight some high school nerd?

The Abstruse One
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: blgarver on December 27, 2006, 05:10:36 PM
I'd tend to agree that Harry is a pretty good protagonist.  He's uber powerful, but he pays a price for his power, which often leaves him vulnerable for attack from one of the several enemies.

That's another cool thing about Dresden; no matter what his immediate goal is, he's got a handful of other baddies trying to get him while he's down.  So his real power is his skill at juggling all the difficulties he's going through.  That's a mental fortitude that doesn't really have anything to do with his magic ability.

This is something I need to work on in my own writing; raising the stakes, really piling it on the main character.

Protagonists like Superman have always bugged me.  One of my favorite rivalries is the one between Wolverine and Magneto.  All the X-Men are pretty awesome protags too.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Josh on December 28, 2006, 06:54:17 PM
In forming a character, I always try to enact a price for whatever power they have. If they have some great gift that lifts them above the commonfolk, then they're going to pay for it! Their power demands some sacrifice, which then makes them (hopefully) a bit more of an indepth, conflicted character and one who is more interesting to see how they not only employ that power, but how they deal with the cost. For instance, in one story I've written, the character is extremely powerful and is able to employ all manners of magic around him while most people are limited to one style. The only problem is, in order to access said powers, he must rip them away from those who have them, which tends to destroy their will to live. He doesn't really like doing this, being all moral and stuff. The antagonist has similar abilities, and, of course, has no qualms about doing whatever is necessary for the power. So...yes, way powerful, but that whole struggle and balance can become a deeper part of the story itself.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Abstruse on December 28, 2006, 11:31:10 PM
Don't forget your price for the power can simply be all the crap they have to go through because they have the powers.  Most of Harry's problems aren't due to him using magic, it's due to his belief that his power gives him strength he should use to help and protect people.  He could easily pay his bills and even become wealthy using his abilities to sell hocus pocus to country singers on heroin or other rich folks.  And that's not even counting all the flat-out illegal ways he could get money.  He could live very comfortably...but he chooses not to.  He chooses to do the right thing.  And in doing the right thing, he brings the White Council, the Red Court, the Black Court, Winter Queen, and whoever else he pisses off all upon himself.  So keep that in mind too.

The Abstruse One
Darryl Mott Jr.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: blgarver on December 29, 2006, 04:49:33 PM
Don't forget your price for the power can simply be all the crap they have to go through because they have the powers.  Most of Harry's problems aren't due to him using magic, it's due to his belief that his power gives him strength he should use to help and protect people.  He could easily pay his bills and even become wealthy using his abilities to sell hocus pocus to country singers on heroin or other rich folks.  And that's not even counting all the flat-out illegal ways he could get money.  He could live very comfortably...but he chooses not to.  He chooses to do the right thing.  And in doing the right thing, he brings the White Council, the Red Court, the Black Court, Winter Queen, and whoever else he pisses off all upon himself.  So keep that in mind too.

The Abstruse One
Darryl Mott Jr.

Yeah, this is very true.  Dresden does have iron will, that's for sure.  And it makes you wonder about your own character; whether or not you'd be able to stick to your morals.

I think I would be, for all of you familiar with D&D, a Chaotic Good character if I had some sort of wild powers.  I'd use them to benefit myself as long as there was nothing inherently immoral about whatever task I was doing.  Unlawful is different than immoral.  For the most part I'd be a law abiding bad ass, but not all laws are driven by moral fiber.  Like trespassing or stupid stuff like that.  I'd probably break a few laws here and there, but still try to do the "right" thing in the moral sense.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: The Corvidian on December 30, 2006, 06:05:28 AM
One of my protagonists is very powerful, but he has to hide it. He has been reborn many times, and over these lifetimes, he as picked up knowledge, wisdom, and a few enemies. Also, if he were to use his full power, it would draw attention to him, because a couple of monastic orders think that he is the reincarnation of their founders. They keep trying to get him to come and lead them, and he has had to refuse them on more then one occasion, & once very violently. He also made an enemy of a group a few lives back, and the few members are trying to get even for supposed past transgressions.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Dom on January 01, 2007, 02:20:31 AM
I know that it makes good storytelling, but one part of me is wondering why magic has to have some horrible downside.

I keep thinking of, oh, art.  Drawing, or writing stories.  Both are rather magical to people who never do them, but there's no universal Downside or Punishment for being an artist or author.  And you can still make loads of bucks doing it without being unethical, if you're really really good.

And then I was thinking of another profession, like, I dunno, stuntman.  Totally different upsides, downsides, and risks.

And then, other talents and careers.

Not sure where I'm going, just a little thought nibbling away at my grey matter...maybe it should be its own thread...
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: fjeastman on January 01, 2007, 03:23:56 AM

Protagonists need to be capable.  They've got to be interesting and provide the reader with vicarious thrill.  I mean, I know I'd like to be able to point a stick and say a word and blow up a car.  That would be excellent.  But I can't.  That Harry can is cool.

But I don't think they have to be super-powered.  Even in a supernatural storyline.  They have to be capable of overcoming the opposition ... but, to make a character human, they need flaws.  And sometimes I think authors give powerful characters unreasonable flaws to provide broadside weaknesses to be exploited.

Usually the progression seems to be ... "Protagonist identifies self as normal or weak, but has special power that makes them center of story."  Then, "Protag discovers something special, possibly unique, about themselves and their power."  Such as Harry being very strong with fire evocations, if a bit wild, and having a mysterious background that we'll probably find makes him rather unique among wizards ...

At the same time, coming from an enjoyment of traditional crime/gumshoe novels ... your main character doesn't have to gain progressively cooler and more explosive powers.  Over time, Spenser (Robert Parker's character) hasn't sprouted any new capabilities.  He's always been a hard-hitting smart-talking P.I. who doesn't know when to stop.  Actually Parker has been revealing that Spenser is slowing down, getting older.  Same with John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee.  By the end, Travis McGee was getting older, less willing to brawl.

I think a long-running supernatural series could, seriously, have a normal human protagonist with no developing ability, no godlike power. 

--fje   
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: NewClassic on January 02, 2007, 08:51:28 PM
It really really depends on the situation in question, and how you intend to write the character. Which includes long-forwarded developments for that character.

For an example, I'll use a rich boy who's small, nearly crippled with a inactive tumor. The boy in question is small, nonmuscular, unable to run due to his tumor, and mentally capable to be studious, but no where near smart enough to be witty and clever in his actions. Our character runs into a terrible crash with a violent, vengeful assassin. The assassin vows that he will never forget the day. Our rich protagonist hires a bodyguard. The bodyguard is more of a nanny than a gun. The nanny uses his intelligence to add to his fee and hire a gun as well, leads the boy through many traps using simple intelligence, and the hired gun to help throw in a punch where needed.  The boy himself is far disabled, but his nanny and the nanny's gun play to his strength (money), and theirs (brains and guns, respectively.)

Or we could just have a superpowerful character (Let's pretend we've got a character like Merlin from the Dresden Files) who has enough ability to kick-down some doors (or worlds) and stomp some bad-guys, but with his knowledge is incapable of doing the smaller touches of help for the long run, and when paired with powerful enemies (fairy and vamp courts.)

That kinda thing. I'd elaborate more, but I'm pressed for time. That's my 2 cents, at least.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: pathele on January 02, 2007, 09:34:08 PM
To me its about balance. If the character is very powerful, then he is very flawed and those flaws offset the power he wields. 
For instance, in one of the ST:NG episodes there was a planet where everything had been destroyed except one house. The creature who lived there wiped out an entire race with a thought, but the guilt was devastating to him (and he couldn't bring them back).
Ok, so maybe not the best example...

But look at Harry. He is very powerful. Much more powerful than he was in SF. But his "flaws" are mounting as well (ie, the fallen in his head, the anguish over Susan, the responsiblity for Molly, duties as warden, etc) 

just my thoughts.

-paul
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: NewClassic on January 03, 2007, 03:43:04 AM
Now that I have more time, I'm going to elaborate on my earlier posts a bit.

Protagonists deal in two major currencies:
Power and Potential.

Is the character powerful enough to deal with whatever conflict he's facing, or does he have the potential to later defeat his conflict. I'll put examples from Dresden Files and Codex Alera:

Ye be warned, read all of Jim's books, up to the newest, or you may be spoiled.
SPOILER A-FREAKING-LERT!


Power: As it stands, it's clearly shown that Harry can set flame to an ancient manor, killing everything inside save for the extremely powerful. He can also blow enough wind to re-route a concentrated, pressure-driven stream of gasoline set ablaze. Harry also has the option to instill in himself necromantic energy of epic proportions, to allow himself to be taught by a fallen Denarian, and a powerful winter fairy, to submit himself as the powerful Knight of the Winter Court, and summon allies as powerful as a demonic mercenary and the Blackstaff of the Senior Council. Add on the fact that Harry already wields enough metaphysical muscle to burn down buildings at will. Or, additionally, Harry has the power to put it all behind him and lead a peaceful life with friends, a life that isn't wrought with danger and worry. Also a world with Susan.

But Harry doesn't wield either of those powers, because Harry has the guilt of the people of Chicago, the Special Investigation of the CPD, and the friends and allies, including the weak or magicless. Harry has the option to gain power, enough so to perhaps crush the earth itself on a whim. But Harry doesn't accept this power because of the effects of it. So, Harry, barely powerful enough, scrapes by through clever plans, magical tricks and trinkets, and determined allies. And his enemies aren't always all-powerful. It's the difference between a police officer and a criminal. The criminal doesn't draw the line as early as the cop, if he even draws the line at all. Harry has to draw the line. To not kill with magic, to not blow up the innocent bystanders locked in the closet. Harry's power is checked by his conscious.

Potential:
Tavi has potential, in spades. He's among the most obviously powerful strategists in Alera. He holds allies among the Marat, and perhaps the Canim (maybe.) He's now coming into fire furies (maybe?), and quite probably many more. But the reason he's lived to make such allies and surpass amazing expectations isn't because he had power, it's because of his potential. He was given tools which he used where others would or could not. He effectively did what many could not. He played to his strength well despite his weakness, and lived to the potential he needed to overcome his conflict, not once, but twice. Because of this, he makes a strong protagonist because of his potential, not his power.

End FREAKING Spoilers.

So, in summary, a protagonist can hold his own with or without power. If he's powerful, he needs something to keep him in check, if he has potential, he must come into his potential, or die trying.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Josh on January 03, 2007, 06:31:36 PM
I know that it makes good storytelling, but one part of me is wondering why magic has to have some horrible downside.

I keep thinking of, oh, art.  Drawing, or writing stories.  Both are rather magical to people who never do them, but there's no universal Downside or Punishment for being an artist or author.  And you can still make loads of bucks doing it without being unethical, if you're really really good.

And then I was thinking of another profession, like, I dunno, stuntman.  Totally different upsides, downsides, and risks.

And then, other talents and careers.


Delayed response, but here's my thought on this. Art...well, let's take writing for example. It does have its price and its downsides. I do believe this. It costs you Time. It costs you lots of Time if you want to do it and do it well and make a modicum of success doing it, as many people will tell you. What is a downside to writing? Well, unless, like you said, you are really really (I'd throw in a few more really's) good, you aren't often going to make big bucks, even though the dream is there. So you are sacrificing a lot of time and effort and putting yourself through isolation and all that personal angst from the inner editor and critics and rejection from those nasty editors and agents who can't see the beauty of your story...for? A small advance and bad reviews perhaps? Even if you are a good, potentially great writer, the cost and effort only grows as your audience's expectations grow with each story. Sure, it's not as cut and dry as someone having to sacrifice their first born child to enact a spell, but there are costs and there are downsides. Perhaps "cost" and "punishment" aren't necessarily interchangeable terms in this regards (though they certainly can be for a better story, like you said). Everything worth doing has them...things you give up...areas that you are weaker in because of your focus on your passions. Is writing magical? Darn tootin'. Does it have its costs? Oh yez.

Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Richelle Mead on January 08, 2007, 03:03:32 AM
From a writer's point of view, it makes it very hard because a too-powerful protagonist is never in any real danger.  My succubus isn't overly powerful, but she is immortal, so...um, her life is never in peril.  Writing certain storylines has proven a real bitch because of this since I can't up the stakes.  Instead, I have to put her loved ones in danger.

I imagine this is true for any writer with a too-powerful character.  We read books to see triumph over adversity...or at least some kind of struggle.  Remove the struggle, and well...
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Slife on January 10, 2007, 03:37:40 AM
Just powerful enough to carry out the plot with difficulty.

Really high power levels can stil be done well. For example, think of the Chronicles of Amber.  The protagonists can create worlds almost effortlessly.  And it still works as a series.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Velkyn_Faer on January 25, 2007, 12:04:04 AM
One of the main things about Harry Dresden is he is powerful, but he still makes mistakes and still fights people just as or more powerful than him. There are many times you see him walking away from a fight limping, bleeding, and ready to pass out. He isn't a STAR WARS hero, who walks away without even breathing hard (I was a huge SW fan, so please don't get after me about that. I'm mostly speaking of the movies, not the books.) Power should be realistic, and as many people said, relative to their enemy.

However, I'd love to see a bestselling book where the protagonist tries and tries and tries his/her best....... but still loses, and the whole world goes to hell. Or something of that sort. I'm becoming fairly cynical to the stories where the 'forces of light beat back the forces of darkness against overwhelming odds and save the whole entire universe with twelve men, a stone wall, and two coils of duct tape.'

Velkyn
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: CrazyGerbilLady on February 07, 2007, 05:43:15 AM
My protagonist has power, and potential for more.  But she is inexperienced, accident-prone, and afraid of her own powers.  She has help in the form of a guardian angel, but he's limited in what he's allowed to do to help her out.  So she's really not only going to be fighting the bad guy but also her own issues.  My problem is going to be making sure I balance out the two conflicts.  I can tell I'll have a tendency to over-emphasize the inner issues and under-emphasize the bad guy!  I'd rather have the two balanced though.  We'll see.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: WonderandAwe on February 07, 2007, 04:42:31 PM
You also much consider the situation that your protagionist is in.  Let's use Harry Dresden for an example.  In a magical battle (where he has had time to prepare), Harry is pretty hard to beat.  In the last battle of Summer Knight, he was able to take out one of the major Fae powers because he had time to plan.  However, in other areas, Harry is basically screwed.  The scene in Death Masks, where Harry has to defend his actions at Bianca's mansion to the White Council, he royally screwed that up.  Tactful Harry Dresden is not.  If it wasn't for Mab, he would have been boxed up and served to the Red Court.  Harry's strengths, outthinking and taking down bad guys, don't really work when the good guys are gunning for you.

Title: Re: How powerful should a protagonist be?
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on February 07, 2007, 07:18:07 PM
A very good point. No matter how powerful a character is, if everyone just expects him to do everything, his limitations will become evident. Also, he'll cross the moral line of letting people decide their fate for themselves.

To quote Luthor from Superman: Red Son: "Why don't you just put the whole WORLD in a BOTTLE, Superman?"

The biggest problem I have with Red Son, which other than that I pretty much love unreservedly, is that for a Superman brought up the way that one was, the in-character answer is "Why not ?", and for a classic pre-CoIE Superman who is genuinely both massively more intelligent than everyone else in the world and good to the very core, he sdoes know better than you and he is right to run the world his way.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on February 07, 2007, 07:21:09 PM
Hence why Superman has never been a good protagonist in my mind.  He's just too powerful and the only thing that can bring him down is kryptonite.

Superman's weakness is his moral rectitude. Convince him that not doing what you want endangers innocent lives and he'll do what you tell him.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: prime_spirit on February 08, 2007, 02:27:38 AM
It is essentially the protagonist's story you're writing about and thus, he/she must have certain issues that the reader could relate to. Such as taking the bus or driving the car to work or take on the bad guys in a battlefield or sneak into the fortress. It's the choices the protagonist makes, rather than the best of his abilities (indeed maybe the lack of his abilities) which makes a charcter who/what we can love and cheer to.

Oh gods and freaks, I think I subconciously quoted JKRowling's Dumbledore of COS :o.

But still, the system works. The character grows, he loses his abilities and makes different choices. You question what if he still had the power and then which way would it force him/her to do the best thing or the right thing.

Indeed, I plan to make my character with super-potential and super-strong but her choices restricts her from acheiving top level. Not to mention getting crippled socially, physically, magically and emotionally (in that order). But remember, what makes a book is the characters. Plural. There are others that would support my protagonist along the way, those she had helped before. They wouldn't want her to give up no matter how much she just wants to lay down and disappear.

So it doesn't matter how tough/weak your protagonist is. Preferably, the tougher he is, the more people needed to bing him down. He could be a god with phenomenal cosmic power but it still comes down to either sacrifice his family/friends so their pure blood can heal the planet or rescue them to a temporary heaven and risk bleeding reality to the demons. It's the walk that goes with the talk ;).
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Cathy Clamp on February 12, 2007, 12:45:25 AM
I, too, like an antagonist that would NORMALLY be able to kick butt on the hero, except that something has happened to change the dynamics. Whether the hero has sought out help (like Harry asking for the werewolves' or Summer Lady's help, etc.) or has crafted some sort of response in the form of magic, etc.--it shouldn't be a walk in the park. Likewise, paying a price, even in a single title book, is a good idea. If it's easy, there's not enough conflict, IMO.  :D
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Erlkoeneg on August 29, 2007, 07:14:12 AM
I would say that it depends on the character, and what the situation is going to be.

Most characters defiantely need a cap, because that's much mroe realitstic.
But there are exceptions. Like one of my characters, Sam Crescent. The guy is basically omnipotent, so all of his conflicts are emotional/psychological. These conflicts are often made even mreo dificult by the fact that it is impossible for him to feel the emotion 'love'
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: jib on August 29, 2007, 07:49:56 AM
i think a protagonist must be different from everyone else, which means they must have qualities that make them better, stonger, cleverer, extraordinary or whatever. BUT the most important thing is that they remain human (even if they are vampire, werewolf or anything else). They need to have a certain amount of vulnerability to remain credible. They can develop new and amazing powers, but only inside the limits of the story, meaning new powers can't just pop up like daisies from the ground. They have to fit into the continuity and the protagonist's character. A protagonist should never be too powerful. Otherwise you end up having a second anita blake, who's pretty much unkillable, comes up with unexplained and ridiculous new powers just when she needs them and doesn't even have a proper story to justify all the 800 pages of way too graphic sex anymore. and we wouldn't want that, would we?  ;) anyway, that's what i think.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on August 29, 2007, 02:26:57 PM
A protagonist should never be too powerful.

I still disagree, and my favourite counterexample is Mike Carey's Lucifer, who in that setting is more powerful than anyone else except God, absolutely ruthless at the "will set the world on fire to light his cigarette" level, and still manages to get some fascinating stories and conflicts.  Partly because, in order not to get bored, he will play your game by your rules and win anyway; partly because he never, under any circumstances, breaks his word or tells anything other than the exact literal truth, but he does have a gift for letting people interpret what he says differently from how he means it.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Spectacular Sameth on August 29, 2007, 10:10:39 PM
If you give them too much power, you can always attack them emotionally, though that tends to get old sometimes.

For instance, the Green Goblin in the first Spider-man movie says it best "Attack his heart, Osborne. Attack his heart." So what'd he do? He injured Peter's aunt and threatened to kill MJ and a bunch of kids. This is why Spider-Man wears a mask...if people don't know who he is, then they can't hurt his loved ones, but he can't always protect them. While Spider-Man is still human and can be killed by a bullet or something like that...he still has the emotional weaknesses. Overpower, but with a price or overpower, but with something to protect.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: The Corvidian on August 30, 2007, 12:51:30 AM
Dresden also limits himself because he scared of what he might become, the very thing that he fights against. I think in a sense, he is attacking that part of himself that he hates and fears.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Spectacular Sameth on August 30, 2007, 02:00:07 PM
Part of him is also still afraid of getting burned more. It took him what? All of an entire book to just be able to light a candle with magic? Mental scarring as well as physical.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: DragonFire on August 30, 2007, 10:25:02 PM
Personally, I like to make my main antagonist a bad ass. He's usually tougher than my protaganoist, and he holds about 80% of the cards to.
I also like to have him/her have some tough flunky's that my protaganist can beat up. THat way, he shows he's competent and capable, yet he doesn't feel overpowered.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Shecky on August 30, 2007, 10:58:24 PM
Personally, I like to make my main antagonist a bad ass. He's usually tougher than my protaganoist, and he holds about 80% of the cards to.
I also like to have him/her have some tough flunky's that my protaganist can beat up. THat way, he shows he's competent and capable, yet he doesn't feel overpowered.

Hmm. Sounds like... Cowl?
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: DragonFire on August 30, 2007, 11:48:08 PM
Hmm. Sounds like... Cowl?

How so?
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Shecky on August 31, 2007, 12:54:17 AM
How so?

Let's see... "tougher than my protagonist" - Harry himself says Cowl's way above him in power, skill and general toughness. "Holds about 80% of the cards" - Cowl knows what's going on, Harry doesn't. "Tough flunkies" - Harry barely beats Cowl's pair, and that's with puh-sychology an' stuff.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: DragonFire on August 31, 2007, 01:07:15 AM
Let's see... "tougher than my protagonist" - Harry himself says Cowl's way above him in power, skill and general toughness. "Holds about 80% of the cards" - Cowl knows what's going on, Harry doesn't. "Tough flunkies" - Harry barely beats Cowl's pair, and that's with puh-sychology an' stuff.
WEll, yes, I generally like my antagonist to know his own plans. THat why he holds the cards.

As to the rest, well I mever claimed it was a unique way of creating a protaganist/antagonist power balance.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: meg_evonne on August 31, 2007, 02:17:07 AM
I think Butcher has the mix perfect.  Antagonist has it over the protagonist (who isn't too far behind) but manages to win w/ something human or some human characteristic.  Rowling same thing.  L'engle same thing. It's a mix that I happen to love and given the popularity of the authors, must be fairly conmon to tons of readers. 

One could say that Jesus was in the same boat, but that's another thread.   :D
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Shecky on August 31, 2007, 11:01:28 AM
WEll, yes, I generally like my antagonist to know his own plans. THat why he holds the cards.

As to the rest, well I mever claimed it was a unique way of creating a protaganist/antagonist power balance.


Oh, no, sorry, wasn't trying to say it wasn't unique or anything like that - simply showing that the formula is a well-used one. I mean, if the antagonist is weaker, the protagonist would whip him regularly, and if he were that much stronger, the protagonist could only win with sheer luck, loads of help and the like.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on August 31, 2007, 06:08:25 PM
I also like to have him/her have some tough flunky's that my protaganist can beat up. THat way, he shows he's competent and capable, yet he doesn't feel overpowered.

Problem with this, is that the easy failure mode for this is the completely predictable The Crow: City of Angels plot shape; villain turns up with three or four persons of hench, you know absolutely that the hero will get to fight them each one at a time before a final confrontation with the boss.  Which works for some kinds of video game and more or less works for the kind of movie where showy fight scenes are much of the attraction, but is very easy to make boring in print.

Now a set-up like that in which the boss villain gets unexpectedly shot in the back of the head a third of the way in and the people of hench have to try to put the boss's plan together and do it in different ways and end up working at cross-purposes, that's interesting.  The various necromancers in Dead Beat are doing something similar, come to think of it.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on August 31, 2007, 06:12:41 PM
I think Butcher has the mix perfect.  Antagonist has it over the protagonist (who isn't too far behind) but manages to win w/ something human or some human characteristic.

Looking at most of Harry's big end-of-book victories, what they seem to have in common is a gift for lateral thinking, for defeating foes who are stronger head-on by coming at them from unexpected angles.  Which is I suppose a human characteristic, but I like to see thinking getting people places. I have this vague notion that Harry's gift for thinking about how to do unexpected things with defined situations may owe something to having been brought up by a professional stage magician.
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Uilos on September 01, 2007, 05:18:31 AM
It is essentially the protagonist's story you're writing about and thus, he/she must have certain issues that the reader could relate to. Such as taking the bus or driving the car to work or take on the bad guys in a battlefield or sneak into the fortress. It's the choices the protagonist makes, rather than the best of his abilities (indeed maybe the lack of his abilities) which makes a charcter who/what we can love and cheer to.

Oh gods and freaks, I think I subconciously quoted JKRowling's Dumbledore of COS :o.

But still, the system works. The character grows, he loses his abilities and makes different choices. You question what if he still had the power and then which way would it force him/her to do the best thing or the right thing.

Indeed, I plan to make my character with super-potential and super-strong but her choices restricts her from acheiving top level. Not to mention getting crippled socially, physically, magically and emotionally (in that order). But remember, what makes a book is the characters. Plural. There are others that would support my protagonist along the way, those she had helped before. They wouldn't want her to give up no matter how much she just wants to lay down and disappear.

So it doesn't matter how tough/weak your protagonist is. Preferably, the tougher he is, the more people needed to bing him down. He could be a god with phenomenal cosmic power but it still comes down to either sacrifice his family/friends so their pure blood can heal the planet or rescue them to a temporary heaven and risk bleeding reality to the demons. It's the walk that goes with the talk ;).


I came across this while writing. In the world I'm writing, there are six types of abilities: Corporeal (strength, flight, intangibility etc.) Elemental (able to control earth, wind or fire.) Mage (able to use magic) psychic (telepathy, oracular powers) Spirit, which is the extremely rare ability to use one's own (or another's) life force and Wild, which is anything that doesn't match the other five abilities.

Now, when/if two of these types mate, the child normally takes on either of the traits of their parents, never both. Hybrids are a rare thing. That being said, my main character is a hybrid and posesses three of the types: Psychic, Mage and Spirit. But because he is a hybrid, he is considered to be a bastard by the Mage side of his family, is recognized but not officially protected by his psychic family, and the others think he's too dangerous.

So the main character is ostricized, not taken seriously, and ultimately shunned, which has both stunted his growth and limited his knowledge and control on his powers (especially magic)

So here's a lesson to all, if your character has too much power, beat him down a notch or two to teach him humility
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: meg_evonne on September 02, 2007, 03:06:33 AM
Looking at most of Harry's big end-of-book victories, what they seem to have in common is a gift for lateral thinking. I have this vague notion that Harry's gift for thinking about how to do unexpected things with defined situations may owe something to having been brought up by a professional stage magician.

He certainly thinks fast on his feet when things switch course and is quite adept at using the materials he finds around him to his advantage like a stage magician,
(click to show/hide)
.  I especially love the simple little human things that pop up in situations,
(click to show/hide)


So when you aren't reading Dresden and your Dad's old books from the 60's what sci fi do you turn to for enjoyment?
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Uilos on September 02, 2007, 03:38:36 AM


So when you aren't reading Dresden and your Dad's old books from the 60's what sci fi do you turn to for enjoyment?

Neil Gaiman...
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: meg_evonne on September 02, 2007, 03:53:21 AM
I've just seen Star Dust, and look forward to reading the book.  I understand there are differences.  Other than Star Dust, which do you recommend?
Title: Re: How powerful should a protagionist be?
Post by: Uilos on September 02, 2007, 04:26:50 AM
It's very different and doesn't end the same way. I've kinda done the whirlwind reading course this summer as research (can you really call it that if you've enjoyed every minute of it?) for my novel. I've read all of the Dresden Files (SF-WN in two months...life?), NightWatch by Sergei Lukanyenko (mispelled), which is very good once you get past the russian cultural/writing differences. American Gods, also by Neil Gaiman, very graphic but very good. Also, I read the first four books in Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

Also, one of my personal favorites, is Hell on Earth by Michael Reaves, which is similar to Dresden