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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Griffyn612 on August 01, 2021, 09:05:37 PM
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COLD DAYS
“Oh, oh!” Maeve said, her body twisting into a
spontaneous little dance of pure glee. “You never
saw that coming, did you, Mother? It never even
occurred to you, did it?” Her own eyes widened in
lunatic intensity. “And how will you slay me now?
Whither would my mantle go? Where is the nearest
vessel now? Some hapless mortal, perhaps,
ignorant of its true nature? The instrument of
some foe of yours, in alliance with me, ready to
steal away the mantle and leave you vulnerable?”
Maeve giggled. “I can play chess too, Mother.
Better now than ever you could. And I am now less
a liability to you alive than dead.”
I'm sure someone else caught this, but I only realized it just now.
Maeve names the two options for who gets the mantle if she's killed.
A clueless mortal, or a tool of Mab's nemesis.
Molly, or Justine.
My original thought was that she was referring to Molly and one of the handmaidens/court members in the raiding party. Someone allied with her on the hill. But she was talking about Justine and Nemesis.
I wanted to think Justine was possessed by Nemesis later, but Maeve flat out says that if she's killed, the mantle will 50/50 go to Nemesis.
I just took Harry's flawed narration as fact. He thought Maeve hadn't thought it through. But she had. Her gambit played out exactly like she thought.
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Possible, but let's not forget Maeve's "mommy issues," how jealous she was of the relationship between Sarissa and Mab. When the Summer Mantle went to Sarissa it forever put a wall between her and Mab. Or at least in Maeve's eyes it did and that was sweet revenge, though as we've learned from Christmas Eve, apparently Mab and Sarissa still have a good relationship.
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I think it all rests on understanding if Molly really was clueless.
I think, fundamentally, Mab gambled better than Maeve there - Molly is a good Lady, even if she has a learning curve.
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Molly was the fallback for an outcome that Mab couldn't foresee. When Lily was killed and Sarrisa assumed the mantle Maeve was blind to what she didn't want to see, that Mab had outmaneuvered her again. But Mab knew that, where Harry was, Molly was. Mab won. The mantle was never in danger. The hapless mortal would have been Murphy, Justine was Maeve's ally.
And I suddenly understood what was happening; I understood what Mab knew that Maeve didn’t. Sarissa wasn’t the only Faerie vessel on the hilltop. She was simply the one Maeve had been meant to see.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 505). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Yup, Molly was the fall back, but Mab meant for her to be the Summer Lady and Sarissa the Winter Lady, but it didn't work out that way. Maeve thought she won because she thought she was breaking up the mother/daughter relationship she has always been so jealous of.
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Possible, but let's not forget Maeve's "mommy issues," how jealous she was of the relationship between Sarissa and Mab. When the Summer Mantle went to Sarissa it forever put a wall between her and Mab. Or at least in Maeve's eyes it did and that was sweet revenge, though as we've learned from Christmas Eve, apparently Mab and Sarissa still have a good relationship.
Sarissa was already out of play by that point. She's received the Summer Lady mantle, which left two viable candidates. She identified them both, and we just didn't realize at the time that Justine was the "instrument of some foe".
I think it all rests on understanding if Molly really was clueless.
I think, fundamentally, Mab gambled better than Maeve there - Molly is a good Lady, even if she has a learning curve.
I think Molly is doing a good job, and Mab is satisfied in her progress.
But Maeve won in the sense that she succeeded in her plan. It just so happens that the results weren't as catastrophic as she thought they'd be.
Molly was the fallback for an outcome that Mab couldn't foresee. When Lily was killed and Sarrisa assumed the mantle Maeve was blind to what she didn't want to see, that Mab had outmaneuvered her again. But Mab knew that, where Harry was, Molly was. Mab won. The mantle was never in danger. The hapless mortal would have been Murphy, Justine was Maeve's ally.
No, we're led to believe that she was blind to it. But she knew the mantle could be taken by a mortal or by Justine. She thought the threat was enough to spare her in the moment, and she was wrong about that. But she was on point with the options.
Yup, Molly was the fall back, but Mab meant for her to be the Summer Lady and Sarissa the Winter Lady, but it didn't work out that way. Maeve thought she won because she thought she was breaking up the mother/daughter relationship she has always been so jealous of.
I don't think Mab meant for Molly to be summer lady, she just said she thought it would suit her better. But I think Molly was the backup for Sarissa and Lily, if either as lady couldn't function. I think she thought she'd have more time to prepare Molly, but she was on the board just in case. And she was used as needed.
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Maeve's protection was predicated on the idea that no other person in that circle had been prepped to make her a target for the mantle once Sarissa had the Summer mantle. Murphy wasn't and Justine could not have been. Sarissa's training with Harry by Mab and Molly's by Lea are almost exactly the same. The military calls that lighting the target. But you are correct in that this foreshadows Justine haven been taken.
As readers we should have suspected when Justine became Lara's assistant. Prior to that she wasn't exactly tied real tight.
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Maeve's protection was predicated on the idea that no other person in that circle had been prepped to make her a target for the mantle once Sarissa had the Summer mantle. Murphy wasn't and Justine could not have been. Sarissa's training with Harry by Mab and Molly's by Lea are almost exactly the same. The military calls that lighting the target. But you are correct in that this foreshadows Justine haven been taken.
As readers we should have suspected when Justine became Lara's assistant. Prior to that she wasn't exactly tied real tight.
I don't think her becoming assistant was too suspicious, but the stability without Thomas feeding from her too calm her should have been.
Assuming I'm remembering the timeline correctly.
She was being fed on up until Thomas held back in Blood Rites. Then she had true love protection, which makes her ideal as an assistant for Lara, as she's untouchable to internal manipulation. But yeah, the mental clarity should have rung bells. It's just hard to know if that was due to character growth, plot necessity, or specific cause.
And I still say she was infected by Lord Raith. :D
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I have no idea. But good catch on the foreshadowing. I missed it completely. It makes me feel better about Justine, which took me off guard.
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Once again proving no matter how fine the comb you use on the Dresden files, it's never fine enough to sieve it all..
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wow good catch. Jim really does a great job leaving little clues
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My original thought was that she was referring to Molly and one of the handmaidens/court members in the raiding party. Someone allied with her on the hill. But she was talking about Justine and Nemesis.
Yeah, well, I'm on record saying that I thought that Justine was infected way before Cold Days. However I still don't think her plan succeeded exactly because Justine didn't become Lady. And
yes, in some ways Sarissa's training with Harry prepared her and mirrored Molly's in some ways, I don't think Mab was lying when she said her plan was for Sarissa to be Winter Lady, not Molly. Why? Because she wanted her favorite daughter near her.
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I disagree
Whither would my mantle go? Where is the nearest
vessel now? Some hapless mortal, perhaps,
ignorant of its true nature? The instrument of
some foe of yours, in alliance with me, ready to
steal away the mantle and leave you vulnerable?”
Maeve giggled. “I can play chess too, Mother.
Better now than ever you could. And I am now less
a liability to you alive than dead.”
Molly is not some clueless mortal, she was a pretty good candidate and Maeve was more of a liability to Mab alive than dead, which is why Mab killed her (via Murph).
I do not think the outsiders trusted Maeve enough to tell her that Justine was infected.
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I disagree
Whither would my mantle go? Where is the nearest
vessel now? Some hapless mortal, perhaps,
ignorant of its true nature? The instrument of
some foe of yours, in alliance with me, ready to
steal away the mantle and leave you vulnerable?”
Maeve giggled. “I can play chess too, Mother.
Better now than ever you could. And I am now less
a liability to you alive than dead.”
Molly is not some clueless mortal, she was a pretty good candidate and Maeve was more of a liability to Mab alive than dead, which is why Mab killed her (via Murph).
I do not think the outsiders trusted Maeve enough to tell her that Justine was infected.
I'm not saying that doesn't matter, it does, however here is why Maeve didn't win. While not perfect in many ways, both Ladies, Molly and Sarissa are sane, thus balance is restored. Because the Ladies are sane, hardworking and doing their jobs, the Queens can work together when need be as we saw in Battle Ground.. There is now a united front against the Enemy, there wasn't before.
The Enemy had to go to plan "B," once Maeve died and Justine didn't get the mantle of Lady. Plan B was to undermine the Accords, thus infected Justine's new mission was to get pregnant as HWWB admitted to Harry on the boat at the end of Battle Ground, that plan came very close to succeeding. Not only in undermining the Accords, but to invade Demonreach itself, if Harry hadn't realized in the last moment that Justine was possessed by an Outsider, they would have penetrated the island defenses and all hell would have broken loose.
Keep in mind, Maeve was raving and just a wee bit insane when she told Mab all of that, and she still was talking about the Lady's mantles. She didn't succeed there, it isn't clear or rather there is no evidence that Maeve even knows that there was a plan "B".
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Yeah, well, I'm on record saying that I thought that Justine was infected way before Cold Days. However I still don't think her plan succeeded exactly because Justine didn't become Lady. And
yes, in some ways Sarissa's training with Harry prepared her and mirrored Molly's in some ways, I don't think Mab was lying when she said her plan was for Sarissa to be Winter Lady, not Molly. Why? Because she wanted her favorite daughter near her.
I think Justine was infected just before when she was captured.
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I think Justine was infected just before when she was captured.
Possible, but I agree with Griffyn612, that she was infected way earlier. Interesting coincidence don't you think that vamp feeding on her emotions would keep her insanity in check, then when she is almost killed by it she is suddenly cured? I think as late as Grave Peril she still appeared a bit unstable mentally, but feeding kept it in check. Not saying that true love didn't happen between her and Thomas, but when it did, it gave HWWB an opening.. At some point during Ghost Story the plan began to be implemented, that being the lesbian sex work around that made sex between her and Thomas possible. Because of the infertility of WCVamps in general they knew that actual conception would take a while.
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As far as Maeve's comment, I could also see that as similar to the mirrors in Molly's soulgaze. Not really a sign that a grandmaster strategist is making a move, but a nice easter egg for us to look back upon. Maeve was right, but she had no idea how right she was.
The timeline for Justine's infection is an interesting one. Nemesis says it was ever since Justine had become close to Lara, but that might not be reliable. Justine saving a child from the Fomor in the Marcone short story muddies the water for motivations there as well. As an Important Story EventTM, Justine getting Nemfected probably happened in the background of one of the main books where some kind of throwaway line is a clue. CD is an obvious candidate, but are there earlier possibilities?
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Remember: Nemfection is a deal- you change some part of who you immutably are, but until it cranks itself up to 11, you're still you.
Maeve was Nemfected and gained the ability to lie- but was still Maeve. We don't know what it offered Lea or what she wanted to do with it- I'm hoping for a reveal that she really does have a maternal bond with Dresden on her own, crazy-demented side and was looking for freedom to not have to deal in bargains (gaining the ability to unilaterally act), something of that sort.
Lara told us that someone fed upon into mental incompetence, like Justine, was unlikely to recover. If Nemesis was able to offer her mind back- without the crazy hormones- she would still seem Justine to herself and us until Nemesis was ready to do otherwise.
I do like how Nemesis is written. It's so <i>Needful Things</i>.
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Lara told us that someone fed upon into mental incompetence, like Justine, was unlikely to recover. If Nemesis was able to offer her mind back- without the crazy hormones- she would still seem Justine to herself and us until Nemesis was ready to do otherwise.
If that is what it did, it could be even before "Blood Rites." Remember in "Grave Peril", a key book in so many ways, we learn that she is mentally ill, but being feed upon keeps her stable.. Well, Nemesis doesn't do it's work in a day, so there's an in. The son of Lord Raith being the one who is doing the feeding, plus I imagine Nemesis also knows who is the half brother to Thomas. Justine, beautiful and sweet in her own right would be easy to fall in love with.. The big near fatal feeding in "Blood Rites" set her up to be Lara's assistant..
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But Mab knew that, where Harry was, Molly was. Mab won. The mantle was never in danger. The hapless mortal would have been Murphy, Justine was Maeve's ally.
Was Karrin even a compatible vessel? I think but for Molly, the mantle might have gone flying off the island entirely to some random changeling who'd been having sufficient contact with their Sidhe kin to qualify.
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Then she had true love protection, which makes her ideal as an assistant for Lara, as she's untouchable to internal manipulation. But yeah, the mental clarity should have rung bells. It's just hard to know if that was due to character growth, plot necessity, or specific cause.
I'd attributed it to Lara sponsoring appropriate mental health treatment. Which she may have been doing quite in addition to the Nemesis infection - she pretty well had to take steps to replace the stabilizing effects of Thomas' feeding in order to change a deeply ill hostage into a high-functioning executive assistant. She had no idea Beside was already steadying the wheel from the passenger seat, so to speak.
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Was Karrin even a compatible vessel? I think but for Molly, the mantle might have gone flying off the island entirely to some random changeling who'd been having sufficient contact with their Sidhe kin to qualify.
That isn't all that clear, I think the mantle still could have gone into Murphy.
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That isn't all that clear, I think the mantle still could have gone into Murphy.
Possibly, but I think Justine would have been a better fit for it than her. A young, very pretty, blonde woman that habitually interacts with magical predators that radiate cold?
My initial interpretation was that Maeve was alluding to the mantle flying off the island to an unknown vessel that could be snatched up and vanished.
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Remember: Nemfection is a deal- you change some part of who you immutably are, but until it cranks itself up to 11, you're still you.
Not necessarily. Aurora never knew or understood what happened to her and Cat Sith tried to fight it as soon as he understood what was going on.
It can make deals but sometimes it just takes over and sometimes it influences the host without anyone being aware of it.
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Not necessarily. Aurora never knew or understood what happened to her and Cat Sith tried to fight it as soon as he understood what was going on.
It can make deals but sometimes it just takes over and sometimes it influences the host without anyone being aware of it.
I think making deals is just it taking advantage of the inherent nature of certain beings, and the actual metaphysical aspects behind exchange that so governs the fae to behave towards it the way they do. It opens a vector beings like Nemesis can take advantage of.
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Possibly, but I think Justine would have been a better fit for it than her. A young, very pretty, blonde woman that habitually interacts with magical predators that radiate cold?
That could also describe Murphy.. While she isn't described as pretty, she is described as "cute." She may not be as young as Justine, but she wasn't exactly old either. She hung out with a wizard who can at times be called a predator, plus he is the Winter Knight.. She was also tough as nails something Mab could appreciate.
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Was Karrin even a compatible vessel? I think but for Molly, the mantle might have gone flying off the island entirely to some random changeling who'd been having sufficient contact with their Sidhe kin to qualify.
It's apparently what Maeve thought. Could the mantle cross the circle?
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It's apparently what Maeve thought. Could the mantle cross the circle?
Probably not. But there's two things to consider regarding the possible hosts.
- Justine knew Molly was there in the circle. If she was infected, then Nemesis likely knew. If Maeve was infected, then Nemesis could have told her in her head. So she might have meant Murphy, or she might have meant Molly.
- There were nine Sidhe in each retinue, not counting Red and Rawhead. That's at least nine candidates of Summer Sidhe that should have been compatible if they were female, and possibly some from Winter in a pinch. The question is, were they all male by design, or were there any females? If so, were they potential hosts as well?
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Probably not. But there's two things to consider regarding the possible hosts.
- Justine knew Molly was there in the circle. If she was infected, then Nemesis likely knew. If Maeve was infected, then Nemesis could have told her in her head. So she might have meant Murphy, or she might have meant Molly.
- There were nine Sidhe in each retinue, not counting Red and Rawhead. That's at least nine candidates of Summer Sidhe that should have been compatible if they were female, and possibly some from Winter in a pinch. The question is, were they all male by design, or were there any females? If so, were they potential hosts as well?
Potential hosts maybe, but acceptable to Mab? Or Titania for that matter, considering the disaster the last two Ladies were.. Consider Molly, as effective as she has been as Lady, Mab orders Harry to kill her if she became Queen.
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Potential hosts maybe, but acceptable to Mab? Or Titania for that matter, considering the disaster the last two Ladies were.. Consider Molly, as effective as she has been as Lady, Mab orders Harry to kill her if she became Queen.
I'm not sure what you mean about Mab ordering Harry to kill her? But what Mab or Titania wants doesn't really have a bearing. Titania didn't "want" Lily, but she was the closest vessel compatible to the summer lady mantle when it was vulnerable so it went into her.
Likewise, if Molly hadn't been there, but one of the nine winter Sidhe present to help Maeve had been female, it seems likely that they would have been candidates over Justine or Murphy.
Since the mantle didn't go to any of them, we can speculate that they weren't female or weren't compatible for other reasons. Or the mantle felt like Molly, despite being only human with wizard blood, was a better fit.
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I'm not sure what you mean about Mab ordering Harry to kill her? But what Mab or Titania wants doesn't really have a bearing. Titania didn't "want" Lily, but she was the closest vessel compatible to the summer lady mantle when it was vulnerable so it went into her.
Likewise, if Molly hadn't been there, but one of the nine winter Sidhe present to help Maeve had been female, it seems likely that they would have been candidates over Justine or Murphy.
Since the mantle didn't go to any of them, we can speculate that they weren't female or weren't compatible for other reasons. Or the mantle felt like Molly, despite being only human with wizard blood, was a better fit.
Probably referencing Mab's comment in BG before the Eye showdown. I think the point was that even if the Lady mantle chooses someone that Mab disapproves of, as long as Mab knows where it is, she can kill the new Lady in the presence of a more suitable candidate.
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I'm not sure what you mean about Mab ordering Harry to kill her? But what Mab or Titania wants doesn't really have a bearing. Titania didn't "want" Lily, but she was the closest vessel compatible to the summer lady mantle when it was vulnerable so it went into her.
In Battle Ground, just after Murphy is killed, Mab orders Harry to kill Molly if she doesn't survive. She goes on to tell him why, though Molly has the makings of a good Lady, she would be horrible for everyone as Queen... What I am saying and why it has bearing, if Mab feels that way now, she felt that way then... Which is the reason why she had ordered Harry to kill Maeve, even if it wasn't him that ended up doing it. Titania lost her daughter, she accepted Lily but for how long? Because she had many short comings, she may have had to have her killed also.. And if she wasn't satisfied with Sarissa, I don't think Titania would hesitate to order her killed. Heck she may have wanted Lily dead, but Fix loved her and may have talked Titania out of it.
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In Battle Ground, just after Murphy is killed, Mab orders Harry to kill Molly if she doesn't survive. She goes on to tell him why, though Molly has the makings of a good Lady, she would be horrible for everyone as Queen... What I am saying and why it has bearing, if Mab feels that way now, she felt that way then... Which is the reason why she had ordered Harry to kill Maeve, even if it wasn't him that ended up doing it. Titania lost her daughter, she accepted Lily but for how long? Because she had many short comings, she may have had to have her killed also.. And if she wasn't satisfied with Sarissa, I don't think Titania would hesitate to order her killed. Heck she may have wanted Lily dead, but Fix loved her and may have talked Titania out of it.
Ah, right, gotta.
Probably referencing Mab's comment in BG before the Eye showdown. I think the point was that even if the Lady mantle chooses someone that Mab disapproves of, as long as Mab knows where it is, she can kill the new Lady in the presence of a more suitable candidate.
My only comment would be that Mab might have to have Molly killed, rather than kill her herself, if she decided to not keep her. Mostly because Molly may still technically be mortal, and Molly didn't make a contract with Mab like Harry did.
But I think there was WoJ about Molly accepting the mantle, so maybe she's signed on and owned just like Harry.
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I'm pretty sure that was a personal warning to Harry. He's always denied Molly the one thing she wanted. Him. As Queen she could have him. And Harry wouldn't have a choice. Molly's a little twisted, at least the way Jim has written her. That might make her a lot twisted. The quote is.
“As Winter Lady, she shows promise,” Mab said. “But she is not ready to become Mab. The consequences would be . . . unsettling. For both of you. Perhaps for all of Winter.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 220). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
As long as her emotions rule her still Harry would be in danger. Probably not. But there's two things to consider regarding the possible hosts.
- Justine knew Molly was there in the circle. If she was infected, then Nemesis likely knew. If Maeve was infected, then Nemesis could have told her in her head. So she might have meant Murphy, or she might have meant Molly.
- There were nine Sidhe in each retinue, not counting Red and Rawhead. That's at least nine candidates of Summer Sidhe that should have been compatible if they were female, and possibly some from Winter in a pinch. The question is, were they all male by design, or were there any females? If so, were they potential hosts as well?
I don't think that the infection works like that. I think it's an amplification of something that is in everybody, some weakness. And the infection acts like a reinforcement of that weakness. That's basically how it worked with Cat Sith. He hated serving Harry and the voice whispered to him to kill Harry. When Harry points it out, Cat Sith resisted and was destroyed. I'm not sure that there is anything left of Justine.
Mab on the other hand had Molly prepared, however the Queen does that kind of thing. It was Mab's choice where that mantle went.
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My only comment would be that Mab might have to have Molly killed, rather than kill her herself, if she decided to not keep her. Mostly because Molly may still technically be mortal, and Molly didn't make a contract with Mab like Harry did.
But I think there was WoJ about Molly accepting the mantle, so maybe she's signed on and owned just like Harry.
For sure there might be extra steps to get things done, but it's an option. I think Molly counts pretty much as fae for the purposes of Winter Law anyway.
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For sure there might be extra steps to get things done, but it's an option. I think Molly counts pretty much as fae for the purposes of Winter Law anyway.
Certainly possible.
I don't think that the infection works like that. I think it's an amplification of something that is in everybody, some weakness. And the infection acts like a reinforcement of that weakness. That's basically how it worked with Cat Sith. He hated serving Harry and the voice whispered to him to kill Harry. When Harry points it out, Cat Sith resisted and was destroyed. I'm not sure that there is anything left of Justine.
Mab on the other hand had Molly prepared, however the Queen does that kind of thing. It was Mab's choice where that mantle went.
We don't know much for sure about the infection, but we know that the host can recover from Beside taking control. He took control of Lea in Proven Guilty, and she bounced back.
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We don't know that Beside ever took control. And Lea is still subject to infection as she states in Changes.
“A madness had beset me,” she whispered. “Robbed me of myself. Treacherous gifts . . .” She shook her head. “I can think on it no more, lest it make me vulnerable once again. Suffice to say that I am much better now.” She stroked a fingertip over an icy white streak in her hair. “The strength of my queen prevailed, and my mind is mine own.”
I tend to look on this like schizophrenia in that you can control it but you can't cure it.
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We don't know that Beside ever took control. And Lea is still subject to infection as she states in Changes.I tend to look on this like schizophrenia in that you can control it but you can't cure it.
But she literally says she can't keep it from controlling her.
“No time,” she said, voice strained again. “I
cannot long keep it from taking hold of…” She
shuddered and lowered her head. She lifted her
face to me a few seconds later, and the madness
had returned to her eyes. “Wait,” she rasped. “I
have reconsidered. Free me.”
I traded a look with Thomas, and we both took a
cautious step backward.
Lea’s face twisted up with rage and she let out a
howl that shook icicles from their positions.
“Release me!”
I read that as Beside taking over. Maybe there's an argument that infection causes multiple personality disorder, and the newer personality took over. But Maeve was the same, just amplified. Same for Aurora. They were doing what they always wanted to do, just in twisted ways.
Lea and Cat Sith both defy their own nature, and both times it's appears to be due to another personality, which appears to be Beside.
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I read that as Beside taking over. Maybe there's an argument that infection causes multiple personality disorder, and the newer personality took over. But Maeve was the same, just amplified. Same for Aurora. They were doing what they always wanted to do, just in twisted ways.
Interesting that you'd say that, often the result of strokes and some other types of brain injury, is the normal restraints or self control we put upon ourselves is lost. So I wonder if an MRI of someone infected with Nemesis would show damage to these parts of the brain? Only Nemesis goes a step further, because it takes over control of those parts of the brain? Maeve had self control issues before she was infected, Nemesis attacked those parts of her brain, so she lost all self control, then began to dictate her actions. She wouldn't be aware of it and since her prior behavior flirted with outrageous anyway, no one noticed that anything was wrong until it was too late to cure.
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I don't think that the infection works like that. I think it's an amplification of something that is in everybody, some weakness. And the infection acts like a reinforcement of that weakness.
Agreed. I don't think it's a knowledge-sharing psychic internet between infectees. Maeve implied she was going to have Justine forcibly infected afterward if she won on the island. So either she didn't even know, or she was saying that to reinforce Justine's cover in case she lost. I don't think she even conceived failing as a possibility at that point.
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But she literally says she can't keep it from controlling her.
That was then. It is probably a power struggle and Nemesis is strong but Lea could at some point gain enough control to run to her queen for help and she also managed to communicate with Harry before Nemesis took over again.
It might work like with the ape demon in blood rites. If the demon is spread thin over 13 instances each instance is weaker. So Nemesis is not at all times equally strong.
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But she literally says she can't keep it from controlling her.
I read that as Beside taking over. Maybe there's an argument that infection causes multiple personality disorder, and the newer personality took over. But Maeve was the same, just amplified. Same for Aurora. They were doing what they always wanted to do, just in twisted ways.
Lea and Cat Sith both defy their own nature, and both times it's appears to be due to another personality, which appears to be Beside.
Lea won and Cat Sith lost. Had Beside won, Lea would have been lost. But apparently he can whisper sweet nothings but not truly communicate if he isn't at the helm. Imagine someone whispering in your ear saying something you want to be true, that caters to your fears and all those imagined slights.
An ex smoker would understand precisely what I'm saying. That voice is there waiting for you to let down your guard, telling you stories, all the time, for years.
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That was then. It is probably a power struggle and Nemesis is strong but Lea could at some point gain enough control to run to her queen for help and she also managed to communicate with Harry before Nemesis took over again.
It might work like with the ape demon in blood rites. If the demon is spread thin over 13 instances each instance is weaker. So Nemesis is not at all times equally strong.
Lea won and Cat Sith lost. Had Beside won, Lea would have been lost. But apparently he can whisper sweet nothings but not truly communicate if he isn't at the helm. Imagine someone whispering in your ear saying something you want to be true, that caters to your fears and all those imagined slights.
An ex smoker would understand precisely what I'm saying. That voice is there waiting for you to let down your guard, telling you stories, all the time, for years.
My point is, the argument that Justine is lost forever because Beside took the wheel isn't supported by the text, because it appears that we saw Beside take the wheel with Lea, and she came back from it.
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My interpretation of Mab's treatment of Lea was as Mab creating an ice wall in Lea's mind to keep Beside out. As long as Lea puts up with that discomfort and doesn't scratch away at it, she can't be controlled. Thinking about it is that scratching. In Arctis Tor, the wall hadn't been fully constructed yet, hence Beside going with a Hail Mary ploy for Harry to release Lea.
I'd be concerned about the strain it would put on a mortal like Justine to undergo Mab's treatment.
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My point is, the argument that Justine is lost forever because Beside took the wheel isn't supported by the text, because it appears that we saw Beside take the wheel with Lea, and she came back from it.
You could be right. It will be interesting to see what Jim does with it.
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Was Karrin even a compatible vessel? I think but for Molly, the mantle might have gone flying off the island entirely to some random changeling who'd been having sufficient contact with their Sidhe kin to qualify.
They were *inside the circle*, as I recall. Could the mantle leave?
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Don't presume, Grifyn, that the Sidhe can hold the Lady mantles. Everyone we have seen assume the mantles was mortal, or Changeling. The mantle *makes* you Fae; but you may need the free will of a mortal to become the Lady in the first place.
Did Maeve become a Fae and then Winter Lady- or did she go Changeling->Winter Lady?
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Don't presume, Grifyn, that the Sidhe can hold the Lady mantles. Everyone we have seen assume the mantles was mortal, or Changeling. The mantle *makes* you Fae; but you may need the free will of a mortal to become the Lady in the first place.
Did Maeve become a Fae and then Winter Lady- or did she go Changeling->Winter Lady?
Yeah, I wasn't sure they'd be compatible, but they may be. In CD Maeve mocks Sarissa for never choosing. That's not the kind of thing one who didn't choose herself should do. Not that people ever restrain themselves to that which they *should* judge. ::)
As for a Sidhe becoming a queen, I thought the was something a while back that Lea could become queen. I don't remember if it was a WoJ or speculation, though. So my assumption was that with a certain degree of compatibility,a Sidhe could become a queen.
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That's true.
I've been part of a number of fandoms over my life; always important to draw the distinction between supposition vs actual canon. Bad assumptions are another input leading to GIGO. GIGO is the bane of human reasoning.