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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: hiddendotgif on November 12, 2020, 04:40:09 PM
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Has anyone made the connection of Nemesis being named after a Greek deity of retribution (revenge)?
Born of Nyx (Night), Nemesis is the goddess of retribution against those who succumb to hubris (arrogance before the gods)
IIRC, we saw with Ethniu, one of the olden gods, that she was angry at the mortal world and those who sided with them
We have seen many Greek before - Hades, Hecate
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Has anyone made the connection of Nemesis being named after a Greek deity of retribution (revenge)?
Born of Nyx (Night), Nemesis is the goddess of retribution against those who succumb to hubris (arrogance before the gods)
IIRC, we saw with Ethniu, one of the olden gods, that she was angry at the mortal world and those who sided with them
We have seen many Greek before - Hades, Hecate
Several of us did, but so far it has been hard to find a good connection. Yes, you are right about Ethniu, but she isn't Nemesis.
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But Nemesis is not Nemesis - it's not it's real name.
Olympian Gods were real, so I doubt there is more here than using Nemesis in popular sense.
Unless... there was a WOJ - Olympians held Outer Gates before Winter - am I right?
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Has anyone made the connection of Nemesis being named after a Greek deity of retribution (revenge)?
Born of Nyx (Night), Nemesis is the goddess of retribution against those who succumb to hubris (arrogance before the gods)
IIRC, we saw with Ethniu, one of the olden gods, that she was angry at the mortal world and those who sided with them
We have seen many Greek before - Hades, Hecate
yep, there's a whole theory thread I made on this in the reference section I made back when I was wizard Nelson. Nemesis IS Nemesis... Although calling her nortia might be more accurate. The etruscan version of Nemesis.
Nemesis IS its name btw, or at least a mask of it. Hence why saying it can draw it's attention but saying adversary it's role does not.
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So if Nemesis is from the Greek Pantheon, what would that mean exactly? That part; or a single member, of that pantheon was tainted in some unknown way and was cast out of this reality and then spawned the rest of the Outsiders, or took them over if they were already an existing entity in their own universe, and now wants back in with what are either her children or new friends?
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So if Nemesis is from the Greek Pantheon, what would that mean exactly? That part; or a single member, of that pantheon was tainted in some unknown way and was cast out of this reality and then spawned the rest of the Outsiders, or took them over if they were already an existing entity in their own universe, and now wants back in with what are either her children or new friends?
I think most of the Greek pantheon fell to corruption yes. And became known as their new persona's in the Roman version. Harry's talk with Hades touches on the idea. An so does the soul gaze with Thomas actually imo.
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So if Nemesis is from the Greek Pantheon, what would that mean exactly? That part; or a single member, of that pantheon was tainted in some unknown way and was cast out of this reality and then spawned the rest of the Outsiders, or took them over if they were already an existing entity in their own universe, and now wants back in with what are either her children or new friends?
It's possible real Nemesis was also tainted by Adversary once upon a time.
Or if we take more Pratchettian and less Abrahamic vision of Metaphysics - maybe if White God took over as main honcho (not being real Creator but more assuming this mantle due to Abrahamic religions dominations) he forced pagan gods to resign and stop meddling in mortal affairs. But some of them rejected - flew through Outer gates and become a Walkers. This can explain why Walkers are most suitable Outsiders to dwell in this world. Beside is real Nemesis, Behind is of course Euridica, and so on XD
This may also mean Wrestler Olympians Book won't be just quirky funny sidequest before BAT but big important infodump.
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It's possible real Nemesis was also tainted by Adversary once upon a time.
Or if we take more Pratchettian and less Abrahamic vision of Metaphysics - maybe if White God took over as main honcho (not being real Creator but more assuming this mantle due to Abrahamic religions dominations) he forced pagan gods to resign and stop meddling in mortal affairs. But some of them rejected - flew through Outer gates and become a Walkers. This can explain why Walkers are most suitable Outsiders to dwell in this world. Beside is real Nemesis, Behind is of course Euridica, and so on XD
It's been suggested that the Outsiders are just obliviated insiders. Maybe in the DF Nemesis was obliviated. I think it's a stretch, but Harry never mentions the similarity between Outsider Nemesis and Greek Nemesis.
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I'm not sure if Old Gods from Oblivion Wars are the same as Outsiders.
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It's been suggested that the Outsiders are just obliviated insiders. Maybe in the DF Nemesis was obliviated. I think it's a stretch, but Harry never mentions the similarity between Outsider Nemesis and Greek Nemesis.
I don't think they're oblivated, I think they're things we're trying to oblivate. Thing's we've intentionally forgotten most of their identities to keep them from having power here. But also things whose identies were taken from them but who are not yet forgotten.
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I'm not sure if Old Gods from Oblivion Wars are the same as Outsiders.
Me either, but the obliviated are somewhere, and Outsiders, I think it was HWWBefore, have stated that they want to return to reality or some such thing.
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Me either, but the obliviated are somewhere, and Outsiders, I think it was HWWBefore, have stated that they want to return to reality or some such thing.
But then HWWBeside claim they desire utter oblivion of reality and Empty Night, that is quite different purpose from some ancient monster-gods who used to be worship and walk among trembling mortals.
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I'm not sure if Old Gods from Oblivion Wars are the same as Outsiders.
Especially since most of those guys are supposed to just be out in the NN, just cut off from the mortal world.
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I don't think they're oblivated, I think they're things we're trying to oblivate. Thing's we've intentionally forgotten most of their identities to keep them from having power here. But also things whose identies were taken from them but who are not yet forgotten.
Wouldn't they just end up as formless monsters in the Never never and still be vulnerable to normal magic? The ability of Mordite, Olympian Bronze, and the Walkers themselves to eat magic and ignore damage is unlike anything else that's shown up in the series.
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Wouldn't they just end up as formless monsters in the Never never and still be vulnerable to normal magic? The ability of Mordite, Olympian Bronze, and the Walkers themselves to eat magic and ignore damage is unlike anything else that's shown up in the series.
nope, they're holding on by their most basic names and identity.. so basic they have to take little scraps of creation to make a body of their own.
Oh, and olympian bronze... Is part of reality. Though lumping them together is accurate, it's really all about will power. Reality is so foreign to them it has trouble interacting.
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It's possible real Nemesis was also tainted by Adversary once upon a time.
I like this, mostly because the usage of the word Nemesis changed at some point from 'harbinger of just retribution' to 'implacable enemy'. I can't find anything on the timing of the usage change, but it'd be interesting if it coincided with Nemesis the goddess being infected and changing her nature.
We've seen infection twist the purpose of those infected. Aurora goes from bound to balance, to striving for imbalance. Maeve was less drastic, keeping her personality but removing the lying restriction. If something similar was done to Nemesis the goddess, like say taking away the 'just' part of her retribution, then she could attack anyone or anything. Do that enough and you'll be known not for retribution, but as an enemy.
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It could be that Nemesis was the first detected infection by Beside, and the name stuck to Beside.
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I think it boils down to cosmic law, or decree I guess. Whomever didn't want Gods meddling in mortal affairs anymore. Nemesis didn't like hubris, hubris in the DF has been described as free will, the overturning of Fate. So when it was decided that humans should have free reign, her continuing actions corrupted her. Like when the naagloshi choose to stay even though they were supposed to move on, instant corruption. Interestingly Nemesis's etruscan counterpart, Nortia, is known for her association with nails and 'the inevitable fate of humanity as decided yearly with the ceremony of the nail.. I'm still not so sure the nails aren't capable of falling or have not risen from what they used to represent with the crucifixion.
Also still banking on a connection between Lachesis and Nemesis, and mortal magic..
@bad alias, that's an interesting thought on it..
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nope, they're holding on by their most basic names and identity.. so basic they have to take little scraps of creation to make a body of their own.
Oh, and olympian bronze... Is part of reality. Though lumping them together is accurate, it's really all about will power. Reality is so foreign to them it has trouble interacting.
The implication I got was that the combination of reality (life) in the form of Olympian Bronze and Mordite (anti-life) into the alloy of Titanic Bronze is what made Ethniu so invulnerable both to magic and physical assault. I suspect that Olympian Bronze would only stop physical assault really.
But you are correct in that it's all really about will. Divine power (in large enough doses) combined with a strong enough will is enough to get through anything. Cleary the Olympians and other gods must have once held that power (Vadderung included) otherwise they would never have beaten their predecessors. But as the "new" gods faded I suppose their will and power went with it. Harry even expounds on this when discussing how to attack Ethniu with the Erlking and Vadderung etc.
As for Nemesis...while I still think it is possible the old gods ended up as Outsiders, I think it's more likely that the Outsiders are something else. Something more alien.
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The implication I got was that the combination of reality (life) in the form of Olympian Bronze and Mordite (anti-life) into the alloy of Titanic Bronze is what made Ethniu so invulnerable both to magic and physical assault. I suspect that Olympian Bronze would only stop physical assault really.
But you are correct in that it's all really about will. Divine power (in large enough doses) combined with a strong enough will is enough to get through anything. Cleary the Olympians and other gods must have once held that power (Vadderung included) otherwise they would never have beaten their predecessors. But as the "new" gods faded I suppose their will and power went with it. Harry even expounds on this when discussing how to attack Ethniu with the Erlking and Vadderung etc.
As for Nemesis...while I still think it is possible the old gods ended up as Outsiders, I think it's more likely that the Outsiders are something else. Something more alien.
Well yeah, they're non-dimensional things that consider the universe in general a constant disruption.
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As for Nemesis...while I still think it is possible the old gods ended up as Outsiders,
I think it was the stone table, it destroys the thing but transfers it's power. So what happens to a being that's killed but not forgotten? Some sort of afterlife in a ghost like state, that would be the old ones. That Mab in particular shows aspects I'd associate with Nemesis is also a clue to me, and why I think Nemesis is such an issue for the fae in particular. She wants her identity back..
Marking this to remind me later, after sleep lol-starborn, changing identities, general shapes.
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I think it was the stone table, it destroys the thing but transfers it's power. So what happens to a being that's killed but not forgotten? Some sort of afterlife in a ghost like state, that would be the old ones. That Mab in particular shows aspects I'd associate with Nemesis is also a clue to me, and why I think Nemesis is such an issue for the fae in particular. She wants her identity back..
Marking this to remind me later, after sleep lol-starborn, changing identities, general shapes.
Just remember you've got to include an explanation for how that jacked them up enough that they have archangel tier minions.
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Just remember you've got to include an explanation for how that jacked them up enough that they have archangel tier minions.
not necessarily, I piggy back on seracks grand unification theory all the time.(if a ducks a duck then calculate with a duck in mind lol)Mantles are piece meal parts of what used to be grace level beings, broken down into various masks and beings to be more palatable to reality. What Odin did to be vadderrung, as explained iirc in BG, is actually a prime example of that in action.
And then we have WOJ angels might only believe they're the original thousand of year old beings. At some point I think gods and angels were basically the same for all practical purposes. If angels created everything... And various pantheon created everything, then there's a connection somewhere in that. That I think is it. Between most(because the way archangels are described+the greater circle in FM, they are more imo) angels only having soul and sliding memory, I think alot of the older deity used to have position, and those positions had alot more leeway.
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not necessarily, I piggy back on seracks grand unification theory all the time.(if a ducks a duck then calculate with a duck in mind lol)Mantles are piece meal parts of what used to be grace level beings, broken down into various masks and beings to be more palatable to reality. What Odin did to be vadderrung, as explained iirc in BG, is actually a prime example of that in action.
And then we have WOJ angels might only believe they're the original thousand of year old beings. At some point I think gods and angels were basically the same for all practical purposes. If angels created everything... And various pantheon created everything, then there's a connection somewhere in that. That I think is it. Between most(because the way archangels are described+the greater circle in FM, they are more imo) angels only having soul and sliding memory, I think alot of the older deity used to have position, and those positions had alot more leeway.
Where would one find this "grand unification theory"? Sounds intriguing.
I'm assuming that you would class the Titans in there as well?
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Where would one find this "grand unification theory"? Sounds intriguing.
I'm assuming that you would class the Titans in there as well?
it's in the spoilers reference section. Mmm, iirc their were something before the titans weren't there?
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it's in the spoilers reference section. Mmm, iirc their were something before the titans weren't there?
Thank you! I just read the theory and love it, totally jives with my Head canon.
I always forget that Gaia and Uranus are technically not titans, though they did have 12 titanic children.
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By Titans we mean wide array of beings not necessarily Greek ones.
And even Greeks let's remember basically mean - any deity that is not part of Olympian generation.
Some Zeus cousins were describes as Titans. Both Kronos and Uranos were called that.
I think in-verse difference between Titans and Gods came from level of influence they were allowed to use.
And it ended with replacing Gods with Faerie who can influence mortals even less.
And before Titans - who knows, we wander basically beyond times of proper mythologies.,
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Titan seems to mean (at least in Dresden universe terms) proto-god.
These gods are primal elemental forces of the universe. They existed, according to WOJ, before Reality was made...in some form. So did the Angels. Consider the almost personal interaction that the various angels and beings have with Ethniu.
The new gods are Mab and the like. Mortals with mantles.
Sibelis is onto something, I think. I think the distinction between Gods and Angels is more about where they draw their power from, but in terms of origins they are all about the same. Considering the fact that they a existed before time (if you can really have such a thing), I would say that who is older isn't really relevant or even something that can be answered. Cause and effect didn't exist yet!
Just remember you've got to include an explanation for how that jacked them up enough that they have archangel tier minions.
My theory has always been that the "Walkers" and such beings are the equivalent of archangels and the Old Ones are TWG level. But the main difference is what they are. Destroyers versus a Creator. I suspect the Old Ones cannot create a universe or anything meaningful, and therefore are unable to truly combat TWG. They can only destroy things, but they never can solidify or capitalise on territory they reclaim via destruction. TWG by contrast is taking up all the real estate with Creation, and every win grants even more space and makes it harder for the Outsiders and Old Ones to get that space back.
But that's just a theory.
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These gods are primal elemental forces of the universe. They existed, according to WOJ, before Reality was made...in some form.
Well my call was that they are basically angels responsible of shaping and governing immanent reality, that went rogue, but not that rogue as Lucifer and his cronies. But could you quote this WOJ - it seems I missed it or misread it.
The new gods are Mab and the like. Mortals with mantles.
I think not. Like classic pagan gods seems to be last generation of Titan like beings - who were (?) not ascended mortal, at least not just it - Sigurn says Odin is being of Elemental Nature, and he precedes Fae. Fae are half-mortals in the end compared to old forces yes.
Sibelis is onto something, I think. I think the distinction between Gods and Angels is more about where they draw their power from, but in terms of origins they are all about the same. Considering the fact that they a existed before time (if you can really have such a thing), I would say that who is older isn't really relevant or even something that can be answered. Cause and effect didn't exist yet!
I think you can make cause and effect schemes that are not temporal, but more like ontological.
My theory has always been that the "Walkers" and such beings are the equivalent of archangels and the Old Ones are TWG level. But the main difference is what they are. Destroyers versus a Creator. I suspect the Old Ones cannot create a universe or anything meaningful, and therefore are unable to truly combat TWG. They can only destroy things, but they never can solidify or capitalise on territory they reclaim via destruction. TWG by contrast is taking up all the real estate with Creation, and every win grants even more space and makes it harder for the Outsiders and Old Ones to get that space back.
But that's just a theor
That's idea I like - forces of Uncreation. Still it's not really opposed to theory Walkers were created beings that turned to Uncreation due some ancient shit that happend. We will see.
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But could you quote this WOJ - it seems I missed it or misread it.
It was one of the interviews he did just after BG came out. I think that week.
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Well my call was that they are basically angels responsible of shaping and governing immanent reality, that went rogue, but not that rogue as Lucifer and his cronies. But could you quote this WOJ - it seems I missed it or misread it.
I think not. Like classic pagan gods seems to be last generation of Titan like beings - who were (?) not ascended mortal, at least not just it - Sigurn says Odin is being of Elemental Nature, and he precedes Fae. Fae are half-mortals in the end compared to old forces yes.
I think you can make cause and effect schemes that are not temporal, but more like ontological.
That's idea I like - forces of Uncreation. Still it's not really opposed to theory Walkers were created beings that turned to Uncreation due some ancient shit that happend. We will see.
It was one of the interviews he did just after BG came out. I think that week.
The one about the gods existing before the universe did but not remembering that time very well (and not wanting to have to explain how things worked before cause and effect became a thing) meaning that they don't talk about it much was some time before Peace Talks came out, I'm not sure when though.
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OK thanks I'm gonna look for it.
Now that suits my theory that Gods and Titans and Dragons are lesser type of half-fallen Angels :3
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Well my call was that they are basically angels responsible of shaping and governing immanent reality, that went rogue, but not that rogue as Lucifer and his cronies. But could you quote this WOJ - it seems I missed it or misread it.
I think it will be more complicate than Angels and Gods myself. If instead we simply call them all spirits and that they all once "existed" in the chaos "before" Creation. Then along comes TWG and separates Creation from non-being and that act itself is so alien and powerful it changes everything. Some of these spirits then go and see this new theme park called Creation, and TWG says well there are rules and if you want in you either have to join and help or stay out. But some negotiate a sort-of third option and help but don't get uniforms and call themselves Angels. Those middle of the roaders are the Gods. But I can see why the more chaotic ones like Ethniu consider the spirits who joined TWG as traitors then. Lucifer and his team however did get uniforms but then decided that they didn't agree with things and either tried a coup or something similar. Outsiders seem to be those who didn't want in at all initially, but decided there shouldn't even be a noisy old Creation at all and somehow were let into Creation where they ruled briefly before being kicked out. But their mission remains the same: take over and torture Creation before ending it.
The WOJ is in this interview - https://youtu.be/uAh_HjHKSqc?t=1840 which is timestamped but if it doesn't work go to 30:40.
I think not. Like classic pagan gods seems to be last generation of Titan like beings - who were (?) not ascended mortal, at least not just it - Sigurn says Odin is being of Elemental Nature, and he precedes Fae. Fae are half-mortals in the end compared to old forces yes.
Ethniu calls Mab, Titania and the Ladies the new gods. I certainly am not saying Vadderung and perhaps even Erlking are new gods. But the Ladies and the Queens are. The Mothers seem to be more at Ethniu's level. Ethniu even calls Titania a demigod. I think any being that started out as mortal is a new god, whereas Vadderung and Ethniu and Hades etc are the real deal from before the universe.
I think you can make cause and effect schemes that are not temporal, but more like ontological.
I am not entirely sure of what you mean here. Ontology includes temporal schemes, at least in my understanding. I just think that before Creation and Time, the ideas of Before and After are somewhat irrelevant. All things are happening simultaneously in that scenario, or nothing is happening. Perspective would provide a frame of reference, but even that might not matter.
That's idea I like - forces of Uncreation. Still it's not really opposed to theory Walkers were created beings that turned to Uncreation due some ancient shit that happend. We will see.
True enough. I suppose it gets to heart of philosophical questions like "what was before the Creator?" and "Can something create itself out of nothing?". Stephen Hawking would have it that all things merely would exist in the realms of possibility, both existing and not existing. Perhaps the act of Creation forced some beings to exist (like the Outsiders) that were quite happy in their Chaos soup where they didn't have to bound and/or limited by the constraints of reality. A reality they weren't even part of. Think of it like a shadow coming into being when the light turns on. It's forced into a shape by that light where as before it was connected to all the other darkness and wasn't limited in that way. Just speculating here.