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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: THE_ANGRY_GAMER on August 07, 2012, 08:40:03 PM
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I'd like to know everyone's thoughts on how to run a PC posessed by a Demon - not just sponsored by one, but actually sharing the bod of the PC. If anyone's read the Malus Darkblade books, this is the kind of setup I'm going for.
I was thinking Sponsored Magic (Hellfire) would be logical, and some kind of debt/stress system to temporarily buy powers such as Inhuman/Supernatural Strength/Speed/Toughness/Recovery, Claws ect. with the caveat that, if the powers exceed the PC's refresh limit or some other limit (this is where the idea of a 'demon' stress track comes from), the Demon takes over, and the more the PC draws on the Demon's power, the more likely it is to try to take control.
The Demon taking control would take the form of a temporary blackout, with the PC waking up to find themselves in a bad situation (for example, running along the edge of a canal in the middle of a thunderstorm three hours later with armed cops in pursuit) and having to find out what the Demon did.
Thoughts?
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I suggest avoiding an explicit demon control threshold/stress track. Just use Compels.
If you want to grant Powers with magic, Magical Self-Enhancement might be handy. (It's on the Powers master list.)
Also, the right to take Sponsor Debt would make a decent -0 Power.
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For the foundation of this character, I would suggest leaning heavily on Sponsore Debt and the Temporary Power rules, as you suggest. I'd likely limit spending on Temporary Powers exclusively to Sponsor Debt. No real FPs. MAYBE an occassional tag on some Declared 'credit' aspect, or something of the sort.
I would only actually buy powers to represent what the character can 'safely' use, without adding risk of the demon exerting control.
I'd probably start, not with Hellfire, but with Modular Abilities, with a scope of 'stuff [this demon] can provide' (which might or might not include Hellfire), though obviously spelled out more clearly than that.
Also, the right to take Sponsor Debt would make a decent -0 Power.
Actually, for some limited purposes (including Temporary Powers), 'the right to take Sponsor Debt' is expressly suggested as a default, without needing any Power to open up the possibility.
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Actually, for some limited purposes (including Temporary Powers), 'the right to take Sponsor Debt' is expressly suggested as a default, without needing any Power to open up the possibility.
If I had my druthers, taking it'd be a default possibility for everyone. But I'm pretty sure you need a Power to use it on attacks, by the RAW.
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Cool suggestions. Temporary powers would be an extremely good way to model it. In the Darkblade books, the character can draw on hte demon's powers temporarily, but the more he does it, the closer he slips to losing his soul to the demon (in game terms, NPC-dom).
How would you guys handle the Demon taking over temporarily? Obviously, it would take over whenever the PC took temporary powers over his spare Refresh, but I want it to be a risk whenever the PC draws on the demon. The Sponsor Debt system definitely would work, but I though Comels had to be for relatively minor stuff? The demon taking over and killing twelve innicents (for example) seems a bit out of that scope.
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Don't forget about Demonic Co-Pilot.
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Obviously, it would take over whenever the PC took temporary powers over his spare Refresh...
What?
The Sponsor Debt system definitely would work, but I though Comels had to be for relatively minor stuff? The demon taking over and killing twelve innicents (for example) seems a bit out of that scope.
Compels can be whatever you want. If they're too hard, the player can refuse them. Or you can offer multiple FP.
PS: Please forget about Demonic Co-Pilot. It is bad, at least in my opinion.
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If I had my druthers, taking it'd be a default possibility for everyone. But I'm pretty sure you need a Power to use it on attacks, by the RAW.
Well, I did say 'for some limited purposes'.
But if we're going to houserule a power that grants access to Sponsor Debt, and does nothing else, in a way that is reasonably balanced, the only cost I could conscience would be '[NA]'.
How would you guys handle the Demon taking over temporarily? Obviously, it would take over whenever the PC took temporary powers over his spare Refresh, but I want it to be a risk whenever the PC draws on the demon. The Sponsor Debt system definitely would work, but I though Comels had to be for relatively minor stuff? The demon taking over and killing twelve innicents (for example) seems a bit out of that scope.
I would just use the Compels. Large or egregious lapses in control would simply be represented by the Demon 'cashing in' on more than one point of Debt to Escalate the Compel.
Don't forget about Demonic Co-Pilot.
No, forget Demonic Co-Pilot ever existed. Wipe it from existence as you would an Outsider. It is an abomination of bad writing.
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Well, I did say 'for some limited purposes'.
But if we're going to houserule a power that grants access to Sponsor Debt, and does nothing else, in a way that is reasonably balanced, the only cost I could conscience would be '[NA]'.
N/A would be better, but 0 will do.
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What?
I like the idea of the PC taking more power than he normally could, thus becoming an NPC for the duration for these powers, with the Demon in control. Possibly having a Mental contest for control of the body every exchange - if he loses, the Demon stays in control and keeps killing pretty much indiscriminately; if he wins, he's stuck in the middle of a combat situation without any of the powers from the Demon, plus any consequences the Demon has absorbed/negated with powers. This way, there's an actual demonstration of what happens if the PC draws on hte demon too deeply.
Compels seem a lot simpler than this, granted. I'm kinda new ot FATE and RPing in general.
Sponsor Debt seems a good way to do it - one point per Refresh?
Just to clarify - the PC isn't taking Sponsor Debt - the demon is. They're two seperate entities, they just happen to share a body. Granting access to sponsor debt is a cool idea, but I think there should be repurcossions of people using that power.
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I like the idea of the PC taking more power than he normally could, thus becoming an NPC for the duration for these powers, with the Demon in control. Possibly having a Mental contest for control of the body every exchange - if he loses, the Demon stays in control and keeps killing pretty much indiscriminately; if he wins, he's stuck in the middle of a combat situation without any of the powers from the Demon, plus any consequences the Demon has absorbed/negated with powers. This way, there's an actual demonstration of what happens if the PC draws on hte demon too deeply.
You can do all that with Compels.
Sponsor Debt seems a good way to do it - one point per Refresh?
Yes.
Just to clarify - the PC isn't taking Sponsor Debt - the demon is. They're two seperate entities, they just happen to share a body. Granting access to sponsor debt is a cool idea, but I think there should be repurcossions of people using that power.
Sponsor debt is the repercussion. So if the demon takes the debt when the human buys temporary Powers, then it's the demon who suffers the consequences for the human's use of his power.
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You can do all that with Compels.
Cool. Didn't realise they were that powerful. Damn.
Yes.
Nice. Good to know I seem to understand the way the system works. How would you handle the PC making one of the 'temporary' power permanent? Like permanently accepting that much loss of his mortality/soul/freewill (not sure how to phrase this - in the books, it's the character's literal soul he's giving up, but I'm not sure how to adapt this to the DV). So, the PC is no longer drawing on Sponsor Debt, but the power is still tied to the demon - spending a Refresh point, but gaining a worsening of the 'possessed' aspect? Or perhaps a negotiation of a 'Standing' point of Debt?
EDIT: another solution is having both: spending a point of Refresh, AND having a 'permanent' point of Sponsor Debt, limited to a minor compel (so not taking over and killing stuff, but having people be unconciously averted from you by the presence of the demon).
EDIT 2 - ELECTRIC BOOGALOO: What kind of Refresh cost would this have? Sponsored magic ranges from -4 to -2, but this grants a lot more than spells.
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Compels are a way to "force" the characters to act a certain way. They can be refused by players. A compel has to be in line with an aspect, but can basically be anything that passes muster with the table. "I compel you to blow your brains out" wouldn't, but "I compel you to start drinking again" might.
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Nice. Good to know I seem to understand the way the system works. How would you handle the PC making one of the 'temporary' power permanent? Like permanently accepting that much loss of his mortality/soul/freewill (not sure how to phrase this - in the books, it's the character's literal soul he's giving up, but I'm not sure how to adapt this to the DV). So, the PC is no longer drawing on Sponsor Debt, but the power is still tied to the demon - spending a Refresh point, but gaining a worsening of the 'possessed' aspect? Or perhaps a negotiation of a 'Standing' point of Debt?
As a characters remaining refresh post character-gen is supposed to represent his free will, I would allow a PC to convert a temporary power into a permanent power relatively easy. Just allow a 1 to 1 conversion of debt to refresh. Wiping the relevant power (and related debt) from the sponsor's record in return for the greater loss of a portion of his/her soul.
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As a characters remaining refresh post character-gen is supposed to represent his free will, I would allow a PC to convert a temporary power into a permanent power relatively easy. Just allow a 1 to 1 conversion of debt to refresh. Wiping the relevant power (and related debt) from the sponsor's record in return for the greater loss of a portion of his/her soul.
Cool
Compels are a way to "force" the characters to act a certain way. They can be refused by players. A compel has to be in line with an aspect, but can basically be anything that passes muster with the table. "I compel you to blow your brains out" wouldn't, but "I compel you to start drinking again" might.
So, would 'The demon takes control and kills a load of people' would be beyond the scope of a single compel? Maybe it would take multiple points of sponsor debt being wiped?
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Okay, I took a little time and came up with a cursory Template for this character type. Feedback would be appreciated.
Demonhost
Description: This character is, quite simply, posessed by a demon or other intelligent spirit of the Nevernever. Whether it invaded the Character's head, or was invited in, the character now has a malevolent spirit inside his mind. This character is not a Lycanthrope - where Lycanthropes share their mind with a bestial animal spirit, the Demonhost's roommate an intelligent creature with its own mind, agenda and powers. The demon can, temporarily, provide massive powers to its host, but the more the host draws on the Demon's power, the more control the Demon gains over its host.
Musts: The Demonhost must take a High Concept that reflects their state, and names the entity with which they share a body. In addition, the Demonhost must take the following Supernatural powers:
- Sponsored Powers: [Demon Name] (not sure of a Refresh cost for this - I feel it should be at least as high as full sponsored magic, maybe higher?)
Options: The Sponsored Powers ability represents the Demon granting its Host access to supernatural abilities at the price of allowing the Demon a greater hold on the Host. The Host may take any power from the Supernatural Powers list (except those of True Faith, Items of Power, Shapeshifting, and Faerie Magic) under the 'Temporary powers' rules.
The Host accrues one point of Sponsor debt to the Demon per the refresh cost of each temporary power (So, Inhuman Strength and Speed as well as Channeling: Hellfire) would be 6 points of Sponsor Debt. The Host may, at any time, make one of the abilities he has previously drawn on 'permanent', provided he has spare Refresh.
The Host may not draw on any power a step above any it does not already posess, temporary or not (If he wishes to have Supernatural Toughness, he must already have Inhuman Toughness, either sponsored or permanent; the debt accrued is the difference between the two stacked abilities - so in the case of toughness, going from Inhuman to Supernatural would add 2 points of Sponsor Debt, not 4).
The Demon may provide Channeling, Ritual, Evocation or Thaumaturgy within these limits, but with a theme that matches the demon - Hellfire would be appropriate for Channeling, Aquamancy not so much.
Important Skills: Any, really. However, it would be a good idea to make sure the host is not completely reliant on the Demon for every task.
Minimum Refresh Cost: -4 (see earlier note)
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I think for a power like this a [+ Varies] cost similar to that of Modular Abilities and Mimic Abilities would be the best set up. By limiting the refresh that a PC can spend you can easily cap the amount of sponsor debt they can incur in 1 scene.
I'd also set out what forms of magic the power gives more strictly, rather than leaving it open, at present you're effectively allowing the character the benefits of Modular Abilities (with an infinate 'form point' limit, and expanded scope), Evocation (All Elements) and Thaumaturgy (with the possibility of other Sponsored Magic types thrown in because of the reference to Hellfire), all for the cost of Channelling + Ritual.
Granted, to gain access for a scene you need to incur a hefty sponsor's debt, but the possibility is there.
Additionally, although I have made an assumption that these temporary powers last only a scene, you might want to specify the duration in the write up, maybe allow the PC to incur an additional point of debt per power per scene in order to retain them for longer.
(Ie. in your example above, if the PC wanted to retain Inhuman Strength, Speed and Hellfire for an additional scene (maybe the group has finished off a band of mooks, discovered their bosses whereabouts and is on the way to fight him) then instead of paying 6 debt again he can retain those powers for 1 more scene for 3 debt).
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I think for a power like this a [+ Varies] cost similar to that of Modular Abilities and Mimic Abilities would be the best set up. By limiting the refresh that a PC can spend you can easily cap the amount of sponsor debt they can incur in 1 scene.
I'd also set out what forms of magic the power gives more strictly, rather than leaving it open, at present you're effectively allowing the character the benefits of Modular Abilities (with an infinate 'form point' limit, and expanded scope), Evocation (All Elements) and Thaumaturgy (with the possibility of other Sponsored Magic types thrown in because of the reference to Hellfire), all for the cost of Channelling + Ritual.
Granted, to gain access for a scene you need to incur a hefty sponsor's debt, but the possibility is there.
Additionally, although I have made an assumption that these temporary powers last only a scene, you might want to specify the duration in the write up, maybe allow the PC to incur an additional point of debt per power per scene in order to retain them for longer.
(Ie. in your example above, if the PC wanted to retain Inhuman Strength, Speed and Hellfire for an additional scene (maybe the group has finished off a band of mooks, discovered their bosses whereabouts and is on the way to fight him) then instead of paying 6 debt again he can retain those powers for 1 more scene for 3 debt).
Good idea about the duration. Perhaps the Refresh cost could be tied to a 'maximum' level of sponsor debt from the Demon? For -4, you get 4 points of sponsor debt, for -6, you get 6 points, although this seems a little low, given that it seems reasonable to allow normal sponsor debt as well. Perhaps a 1.5 deal - -4 refresh gets you 6 possible points of debt, -6 gets you 9, etc. It could also be another facet of the PC bargaining his soul away for power - another point of refresh for more possible debt.
This also gives another incentive to buy permanent powers - Not only can the Demon no longer Compel you on those powers, but you're also not racking up colossal amounts of debt when you use them a lot.
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I would go with something more along these lines:
Demonic Sponsor [-1]
Description: You have a demonic sponsor or demon sharing your body.
Musts: You must have a high concept or trouble related to your demonic sponsor.
Options: Your sponsor may grant you temporary powers.
Skills Affected: Any.
Effects:
Sponsor Debt. Once per roll, you may invoke an aspect without spending a fate point. Doing so adds one to the debt between you and your sponsor. The sponsor may collect on this debt later, trading in compels on you for that debt on a one-for-one basis—compels that get you no fate points if you accept, and which you must accept unless you have an actual fate point to spend to refuse it. Invariably these compels run along the lines of pushing you to act in accordance with your sponsor’s agenda. You may not incur more debt at any time than your refresh level.
Marked By Power. You have the full effect of Marked by Power (YS169).
Temporary Powers. [-2] Your sponsor may grant you temporary powers. These powers last for one scene. You incur debt equal to the total refresh cost of the powers granted. These powers may be drawn from the Creature Features, Minor Abilities, Psychic Powers, Speed, Strength, and Toughness lists. The catch on any toughness powers is always holy objects and the power of faith. If you are a practitioner, you may also choose Hellfire as a temporary power. Bargaining for these temporary powers is a full action. Your GM may decide that some powers from the list are not thematically appropriate for the demon to grant, such as Living Dead. These should be discussed before play.
If you want spellcasting, I'd also take Sponsored Magic rather than combine it with this power. This is strictly better than Marked by Power (I'd probably replace Marked by Power with it if I made it more generic). The temporary powers upgrade is costed at -2 because otherwise it is much better than modular abilities (the temporary powers sidebar on YS92 is meant for plot specific moments and should be used sparingly). Now the trade off flexibility or duration. This is simply a different mechanic with the same eventual cost.
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Looks good. I'd wipe temporary Psychic powers from that, personally, with the exception of The Sight, but that seems like a good model.
The duration thing seems like a thing that should be negotiated at the table with the GM. I'm also slightly worried that the Refresh cost is a bit too low - while you are getting Compels on it, one could potentially have Physical Immunity for -3 refresh for a scene.
I'd also introduce the caveat that, if you take a Power permanently, you only have to pay the difference in debt. So going from Inhuman to Supernatural speed should only be 2 debt, rather than 4
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Looks good. I'd wipe temporary Psychic powers from that, personally, with the exception of The Sight, but that seems like a good model.
The duration thing seems like a thing that should be negotiated at the table with the GM. I'm also slightly worried that the Refresh cost is a bit too low - while you are getting Compels on it, one could potentially have Physical Immunity for -3 refresh for a scene.
I'd also introduce the caveat that, if you take a Power permanently, you only have to pay the difference in debt. So going from Inhuman to Supernatural speed should only be 2 debt, rather than 4
I'd probably bar Physical Immunity, actually. Except PI from Fire or something.
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I'd probably bar Physical Immunity, actually. Except PI from Fire or something.
Or just bar it entirely. The idea is that the demon is altering the Host's body or augmenting it temporarily. Physical Immunity seems outside that milieu. Mythic Toughness is plenty tough already. That seems balanced. I'll put together a modified template.
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Demonic Sponsor
Description: You have a demonic sponsor or a demon sharing your body. This demon is an intelligent entity, with its own concioussness, thoughts and agenda.
Musts: You must take a High Concept that references your demonic sponsor - for example, Demon-posessed Archaeologist or Posessed by T'zarkan, Eater of Souls. You must also take one or both of Demonic Assistance and Strength of the Demon
Important Skills: Any/none.
Options:
Demonic Assistance [-1]: You may appeal to your sponsor to help you, with the following effects:
Sponsor Debt: You may invoke an aspect in exchange for a point of Sponsor Debt, as described by the Sponsored Magic Rules (YS288). You may not incur debt greater than your remaining Refresh.
Marked By Power: You have the full effect of Marked By Power (YS169)
Strength of the Demon [-2]: You may appeal to your sponsor to assist you in a more overt fashion, temprarily, for a price. You may gain Supernatural Powers for one scene. You may take any Supernatural Power from the Creature Features, Minor Abilities, Speed Strength or Toughness Lists, provided they fit in with your Demon's theme/abilites and are appropriate - Inhuman Strength is appropriate, Diminutive Size, not so much. What is appropriate or not is subject to GM fiat and should be discussed before play. The catch is always Holy objects, True Faith, etc. If you are a practitioner, you may take Hellfire as a temporary power. You take one point of Sponsor Debt per Refresh Point of the temporary abilities. If you already have an ability which is replaced by a temporary ability - for example, Supernatural Strength replacing Inhuman Strength - you only gain Sponsor Debt equal to the difference in Refresh Costs - in the case of Supernatural Strength replacing Inhuman Strength, 2 points of debt are gained, not 4.
Recommendations: Sponsored Magic is a good recommendation to gain spellcasting from your Demon, particularly Channeling:Hellfire. As with Abilities, what type of Magic is appropriate should be discussed with the GM. If you do purchase this, treat the Magic and Abilities debt pool as the same.
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I wouldn't charge anything for the Temporary Powers upgrade.
The Temporary Powers are assumed to be available to any character with reasonably justifiable access to an entity capable of granting power.
Spending Sponsor Debt on Temporary Powers is similarly already assumed to be available to any character.
I see no benefit to this upgrade that the character is not already assumed to possess in its absence.
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The benefit is, you don't have to spend FP on it, and you can do it at any time. The Temporary powers sidebar specifies that it should only happen in extremely rare circumstances - what you're paying for is being able to do it without spending FP, and in any scene, without having to justify it to the GM.
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The benefit is, you don't have to spend FP on it, and you can do it at any time. The Temporary powers sidebar specifies that it should only happen in extremely rare circumstances - what you're paying for is being able to do it without spending FP, and in any scene, without having to justify it to the GM.
The rarity of a Power does not, in fact, make it worth more from a balance perspective.
Sponsor Debt is a form of 'virtual FPs'. Not only that, but Sponsor Debt is explicitly recommended as being available to any character for the purposes of Temporary Powers.
Having taken this power, and worked out the nature of the possessing demon (including the sorts of powers it can provide), should certainly include having to justify it to the GM, after which that work has already been done.
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I think the balance issue here is that the upgrade provides, potentially, a *lot* of power - right up to Mythic Speed, Strength, Night Vision, Claws, ect. That's gotta cost more than -1 Refresh. If you had to apply a Refresh cost to Temporary Powers, to be available at any time, what would it be? Otherwise you're just giving people power for free.
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The Demon taking control would take the form of a temporary blackout, with the PC waking up to find themselves in a bad situation (for example, running along the edge of a canal in the middle of a thunderstorm three hours later with armed cops in pursuit) and having to find out what the Demon did.
I think for something like that, you would not need a power, it would work perfect as a plot hook. Either as the full story, or as an addition to the actual big bad. Your way of getting into the story would then be the "you wake up in the middle of a thunderstorm" part you mentioned above. That can work as a compel, with more compels along the way, depending on what the demon did when he was in control or what you decide during the game he might have done. Or you can invoke it for the "you see a group of thugs and when they see you, they cringe in terror and beg you for mercy, though you never met them before" scene.
I was thinking Sponsored Magic (Hellfire) would be logical, and some kind of debt/stress system to temporarily buy powers such as Inhuman/Supernatural Strength/Speed/Toughness/Recovery, Claws ect. with the caveat that, if the powers exceed the PC's refresh limit or some other limit (this is where the idea of a 'demon' stress track comes from), the Demon takes over, and the more the PC draws on the Demon's power, the more likely it is to try to take control.
Going from the above, there is no need for something too complicated, you would just have some of the demons abilities available to you, but you are generally in full control. If you have a specific set of powers in mind, take them. If you don't have enough refresh for everything, then modular abilities might be your friend. The demon has a number or powers that exceeds your refresh, so you can only access part of it at any given time with the modular abilities power.
Depending on the demon, it doesn't necessarily have to be Hellfire either. An acid demon could grant you some sort of corrosive magic (like the entropy part of water). You can get pretty creative here.
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On the subject of the power you are discussing:
I agree with Tedronai, if all this power allows you to do is take sponsor debt with your demon, and spend that debt on temporary powers it is worth [N/A] or [-0].
It is much weaker than modular abilities or a similar power because you are only getting the benefits of your fate points (and to be clear, sponsor debt is equivalent to fate points) for about a scene. If you spent the same fate points (as refresh before the game) on the powers them selves you would have them always.
If your campaign is only likely to have one physical conflict scene where you are going to need powers between each refresh then this is just better than modular abilities. But in my experience this is going to be much worse.
I think the balance issue here is that the upgrade provides, potentially, a *lot* of power - right up to Mythic Speed, Strength, Night Vision, Claws, ect. That's gotta cost more than -1 Refresh. If you had to apply a Refresh cost to Temporary Powers, to be available at any time, what would it be? Otherwise you're just giving people power for free.
You are *NOT* giving people power for free. You are giving someone power in exchange for sponsor debt/fate points. Think about the fact that spending 8 refresh is equivalent to spending 8 fate points at every refresh milestone to gain a certain set of powers with duration of "until the next refresh." If you are making someone pay 6 points of debt/fate points for mythic speed for a scene they are paying for the flexibility of access to all kinds of powers (instead of just the ones they pre-payed their refresh for) with the cost of only having access to those 6 refresh worth of powers for 1 scene every refresh (instead of all the time).
I also agree that it should not allow you to take spell casting powers other than sponsored magic (of a type appropriate to your demon). If your magic comes from this demon, it isn't going to be mortal evocation or thaumaturgy, it is going to be something like hellfire. If you want to be able to do full thaumaturgy or use most evocations, you can create a sponsored magic like soulfire (at a higher cost) that basically allows this.
On the topic of how to model this character:
I kind of like the method of using temporary powers to model this type of character, but i think we can do better (maybe, at least it is fun to try). You mentioned that the more he uses the powers the closer he comes to letting the demon take over. This sounds like something that could be managed with a hunger stress track.
I have not thought of a full solution, but it may be reasonable to consider allowing a character to take a free (or rebated) modular abilities variant (a power costing [-power points] or [+X-power points] or something) that allows them access to [power points] worth of powers on demand. Then after the scene, they take face a hunger check (discipline vs. amount of power used), similar to feeding dependency. In fact this is pretty much the same as just feeding dependency + modular abilities, with feeding dependance re-flavored a bit (and the rebate increased due to inability to feed to remove stress/consequences). Maybe you could accept compels in keeping with the demons nature to buy off the stress at some rate you negotiate (though in this case you may want to just use the temp powers version).
If you wanted to make the powers much bigger while in use but make the after effects much nastier you could consider increasing the rebate (maybe as much as half of the power points attached, though that may be a bit high) and then not allowing a discipline roll. In this case when ever you draw upon your full powers you are likely taking consequences (or loosing access to powers), which could be compelled to make you do nasty stuff.
These ideas are of course not fleshed out, if someone wants to try to hammer out details of a power that does this, besides the easy sponsor debt/temp powers solution I would love to see it.
Aside:
On the topic of compels. A compel can be whatever you want it to be. There is no limit on how minor or major a compel can be. A compel could easily be to go murder that innocent old lady over there if the character being compelled has an aspect that the GM thinks would make them likely to do that (this may be something the table negotiates). The flip side is that a player is under no obligation to accept the compels, they can spent a fate point to get out of them. The only real limitation of what/how often you can compel is how nasty you want to be to a character (and how far they/the rest of the table is willing to go with you while still having fun).
If you make it clear to a player that buying a ton of powers for 8 points of sponsor debt is likely to result in nasty compels i see no problem with the demon compelling that player to go on a murderous rampage, and then when he refuses by spending a fate point escalating until he has to give in. The player chose to make that bargain for his character and knew what the repercussions would be and is likely only playing such a character because the occasional murderous rampage is a complication he is willing to deal with. If you play a demon possessed character and sell it your free will for power, you cant complain when it forces you to kill people. If you didn't want that potential complication you should either have 1) not borrowed more heavily than you can pay for -or- 2) played a less dark character.
That's just my opinion of the subject form the perspective of someone playing a vampire character who has occasionally gone on a feeding frenzy because i chose to draw on a ton of power. I have others in the group who would flip out of their character was forced into murder, luckily they arn't playing a character with a demon in them.
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Hmm. I went with the Sponsor option because Sanctaphrax recommended staying away from a Stress Track earlier. I'll have a poke around to see what I can come up with. If I go the Modular Abilities Route, I feel It'll be high-stress-cost. These Demons are not the kind that any warlock could summon. Less Kalshazzak, more approaching Eldest Gruff's approximate Power level. Obviously, the Host can't have all those abilites, as this would mean letting the Demon take control completely (and probably destroy the Host's body through the sheer energy). I'll definitely keep the sponsor debt on there, but modular Abilites seems a better way to do it.
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Reading over the Feeding Dependency rules, I feel ther's some potential there, but exactly what one would do to clear out the stress track is a conundrum, and to be extremely powerful when drawing on the Demon (as I imagine the Demonhost being), you'd end up taking /massive/ hunger attacks. That could be cool, but I'd prefer the Host to have a little more control.
I also want to point out that this isn't just a thug-demon; the kind of Demons that this template is designed for are /very/ intelligent - closer to a Fallen than the ones Kravos/Sells use in the cleverness stakes. Just randomly killing people doesn't really fit that. I definitely think they should be gleefully violent, but not mindlessly so.
I like using Modular Abilities alongside a Debt System, but tying the two together is a problem.
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I think i see what you are getting at. I was having the same thought about modular abilities+debt when i was trying to come up with the feeding dependance type solution.
What I was trying to get at was a combination of feeding dependance (re-flavored as loosing control to a demon rather than your need for food) and modular abilities. This would likely be a power that either costs [-0] or grants a rebate ([+X]) and then requires you spend refresh on available powers. If you didnt want a limit on the amount of powers you could have (aka dont want a set amount of refresh tied to this) you would basically just end up using temporary powers/debt as discussed above.
I also kept thinking about ways to add debt to this type of combination (ie. spend fate points/take debt in order to by off hunger stress or the like), but I kept thinking that if you are buying off stress using fate points/debt you are basically just using the temporary powers rules anyway (and being charged twice, since you spent refresh for access to the powers, and fate points to not get taken over when you use them).
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I'd like to know the lines along which you'd reflavour the Feeding Dependency. Since you can't get rid of the Stress by any means other than skipping scenes, it seems a mite unfair. I also don't like the idea of losing powers - if anything, losing control to the Demon would make you /more/ powerful - just not in control.
Perhaps one could use the Sponsor option without the abilities and for Magic, then allow the Host to take Temporary powers above their modular ability allowance within the guidelines we set out previously? This would represent a safe benchmark that the Host can control, with the GM throwing in the occasional compel on the demon aspect to represent the Demon's nature. Then, for the occasional 'I need more power right NOW!' situation, one could use the Temporary Abilities option for extra stuff, then suffer compels later.
Thinking on it, I like this option the most. A decent amount of Compels on the Demon aspect, Modular Abilities, with the ability to go above that threshold for a price.
I think I've got this figured out.
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That was the problem I was running into. My original thought was that you would get rid of stress/consequences by giving over to the demon, repaying him for the powers by letting him exercise his will (in game terms taking debt compels against the hunger), but as I mentioned that was basically paying twice.
I like the concept of having modular abilities for a baseline and then being able to take more/upgraded powers temporarily via sponsor debt.
Such a character would spend around 6 refresh on modular abilities (this is just how I am thinking of it), thus being able to have full casting (via hellfire or some other sponsored magic) or one part of casting and a inhuman ability (like channeling: hellfire and inhuman strength), or be able to take on several inhuman powers/creature features. I would add the caveat (via the reasonableness test on any powers) that the only casting you can take would be some sponsored magic from the demon and that you specify a catch for all toughness and recovery powers ahead of time (like holy objects and true faith).
Anyway it is a really cool concept and I would love to see where it goes.
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Agree with all your points there. Just working on a custom template now.
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Template:
Demonhost
Description: For whatever reason, this character has been posessed by a true Demon, a powerful, intelligent spirit of the Nevernever with its own conciousness and agenda. Those Demonhosts who are not reduced to gibbering wrecks or mere flesh husks for their Demons are incredibly dangerous idividuals. Unlike the Knights of the Blackened Denarius, Demonhosts often do not choose their circumstance, and their relationship with their Demon is often a poisonous one, with the Demon offering power in exchange for portions the Host's soul and Free Will.
Musts: A Demonhost must take a High Concept or Trouble Aspect that reflects his state as a Demonhost, e.g. Demon-posessed FBI Agent (as a High Concept) or Posessed by T'zarkan, Devourer of Souls (as a Trouble).
Additionaly, the Following Supernatural Powers must be taken:
- Marked By Power [-1]
- Demonic Constitution [-0]
- Demonic Assistance [-0]
- Human Guise [-0]
Options:
Modular Abilities [- Varies] Hosts who have shared their body with a Demon for a while often have a 'baseline' of Demonic power which they can call on without losing portions of their soul to the Demon. To reflect this, Modular Abilities (YS177) may be taken from Creature Features, Minor Abilities, Speed, Strength, Toughness, subject to GM and Table approval. In addition, The Sight may be taken as part of these. Other Powers may be negotiated with the GM, but a Demonhost may never externalise their powers in an Item of Power, or take powers that stem from True Faith (for obvious reasons).
Sponsored Magic: [- Varies]Demonhosts who draw on their Demonic roomie for magical power may take Sponsored Magic in addition to their Modular Abilities. Channeling is the most common form of Sponsored Magic available to a Demonhost - the control and restraint necessary for Ritual don't mesh well with the inherantly destructive forces the Demons grant access to. That said, certain forms of Ritual could be granted, with GM and Table approval and a good justification. The element granted can take any form, provided it falls within the Demon's Milieu - Hellfie is a good catch-all, but a Demon with an acidic or decaying bent could grant entropy Channeling, for example. Certain tables might allow this to be used as part of Modular Abilities, or they might feel that the Demon would require a greater sacrifice of the Host's Soul to grant Magic, leaving it as a seperate ability.
Custom Powers:
Demonic Assistance allows the Demonhost to incur Sponsor Debt for even more power. The Demonhost may take Powers above the restrictions of Refresh and Modular Abilities under the Temporary Powers rules (YS98), except the abilites incur Sponsor Debt to the Demon rather than cost Fate Points. These powers must come from hte same categories as are allowed by Modular Powers. If the Demonhost takes an upgrade to a power they already have under the Temporary Powers umbrella, they merely incur the difference between the two powers in Debt. For example, buying Supernatural Speed as a Temporary Power only costs 2 Points of Debt, rather than 4, if the Demonhost already has Inhuman Speed under their Modular Abilities (obviously, if you get rid of the first ability while under the effect of Temporary Powers, they must incur enough debt to cover the full cost of the Temporary Power or lose it). The Demonhost may also invoke an aspect in exchange for a point of sponsor debt, as per the Sponsored Magic rules.
Demonic Constitution is functionally the Same as Wizard's Constitution (YS170) With the Catch of Holy Items and True Faith. This is in effect permanently, and represents the additional resilience sharing a body with a powerful Demon grants. It is replaced by any Recovery powers taken under Modular Abilities or Demonic Assistance, but it is 'always on' - if there is no Recovery power active, the Demonhost is still under this effect.
Important Skills: Any/None
Minimum Refresh Cost: -4, more depending on the number of Form Points allowed under Modular Abilities. (-1 Marked By Power, -1 Minimum Modular Abilities, -2 Modular Abilities surcharge).
I think that works.
If a GM feels the Host isn't beholden enough to the Demon they could Compel them more the more they use their Modular Abilities. Another option one could this template grants (but not a stat/power one) is the ability to Declare that the Demon knows something about a subject at hand, or could grant an ability, like a Denarian Angel. I didn't put that in htere, as I feel the template is pretty much finished, but if one wanted to adapt this for a Denarian, or someone with a Shadow in their head, you could add an option to provide bonuses to Skills (although I suppose one can already do this with a bit of wrangling under a Demonic Assistance declaration on the 'Demon' aspect.
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I would recommend relegating Modular Powers to the 'Options' section of that template, rather than 'Musts'.
Modular Powers represent what the host can use with (relative) safety from the risk of losing control.
A character just establishing their relationship with a demon might not have any such safety margin.
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Changed.
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I'd also probably list Sponsored Magic as an option.
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Technically, it's already covered under Modular Abilities, and I'd be a little leery of allowing Ritual - The Demon is providing raw power, not finesse. Channeling is a better fit, and it's already there. That said, I'll add it as an option.
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Technically, it's already covered under Modular Abilities, and I'd be a little leery of allowing Ritual - The Demon is providing raw power, not finesse. Channeling is a better fit, and it's already there. That said, I'll add it as an option.
I really don't think allowing Magic to be a modular ability is a good idea. Spellcasting is one of the most options in the game. However, it has two major limitations. The first is that it requires significant character investment. It costs a lot of refresh, and requires at least two skills Good or higher to be effective. The other major limitation is that once the character is out of mental stress, they've lost a great deal of their abilities.
Allowing Modular Abilities/Temporary Powers to grant spellcasting means that you've effectively removed 1 1/2 of the limitations on spellcasting (it still requires a skill investment). This makes it an incredibly good option or spellcasters. They get other abilities when their spellcasting runs out, some of which can boost the second/third tier skills thus mitigating the skill investment a bit anyway.
Finally, every spellcasting power, including Sponsored Magic, grants focus or enchanted items. How wold those work with this power? And what if I lose the power, then gain it again? Do I get more enchanted items? That type of looping opens up a whole new can of worms.
I think if a character wants to cast spells, it should be a separate investment. Sponsored Magic, Channeling, etc. Either way, it should be a permanent part of the character. You can flavor it as coming from the demon, but swapping it for other powers is simply too good.
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I really don't think allowing Magic to be a modular ability is a good idea. Spellcasting is one of the most options in the game. However, it has two major limitations. The first is that it requires significant character investment. It costs a lot of refresh, and requires at least two skills Good or higher to be effective. The other major limitation is that once the character is out of mental stress, they've lost a great deal of their abilities.
Allowing Modular Abilities/Temporary Powers to grant spellcasting means that you've effectively removed 1 1/2 of the limitations on spellcasting (it still requires a skill investment). This makes it an incredibly good option or spellcasters. They get other abilities when their spellcasting runs out, some of which can boost the second/third tier skills thus mitigating the skill investment a bit anyway.
Finally, every spellcasting power, including Sponsored Magic, grants focus or enchanted items. How wold those work with this power? And what if I lose the power, then gain it again? Do I get more enchanted items? That type of looping opens up a whole new can of worms.
I think if a character wants to cast spells, it should be a separate investment. Sponsored Magic, Channeling, etc. Either way, it should be a permanent part of the character. You can flavor it as coming from the demon, but swapping it for other powers is simply too good.
Changed. I'd also flavour it as coming from the Demon, and, personally, as it does come directly from the demon, I wouldn't allow any foci/enchanteds (I like the idea of it being quite uncontrolled). I guess a Host with a lot of Form Points and Magic would be quite high-refresh-cost, which makes sense to me.
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I have to disagree with you (InFerrumVeritas) on this one. You are already paying 2 refresh in order to be able to swap around abilities. That compensates for a large part of the benefit you gain from being able to switch over to physical powers when you fill up your mental stress. You already have put a significant character investment into spell casting, if you want your casting to be effective you need to dedicate at least 2 apex skills to it, and you are effectively paying 2 refresh for the privilege of dropping your casting when you run out of stress. Also, I would require at least one exchange to shuffle around powers (normally modular abilities works with true shape shifting, and that normally takes an exchange) so you are taking a disadvantage if you try to drop your casting (in my experience most combats end fast enough that sitting out a round is fairly major).
I think you are also underestimating the cost of taking all that mental stress. If there does end up being a problem where the character repeatedly blows through their casting and then fights the rest of the prolonged fights (one of the ways to tone down casters) using physical powers (thus negating this disadvantage) the GM should introduce some enemies that attack the mental stress track (like red court vamps using narcotic saliva or white court with incite emotion, or something else entirely). Further, the GM may just compel the character with the filled in mental stress track to get into a fight with the demon for control right after a fight.
Also you seem to think that being able to swap to other abilities will help mitigate the skill investment, that is false in many cases. In fact, you will often be at a disadvantage because you built your character to cast (or fight) and now you are forced to do the other. Adding inhuman strength does not compensate for a lack of fists or weapons skill, it makes it worse (as it is harder for you to connect and make use of that refresh). It is true that speed can help you compensate for low defenses, but often times, adding a bonus to a skill you have at 1 or 2 is way less potent than adding a bonus to a skill already at 5 (Would you take cloak of shadows on a 1 stealth character? Would it be very good? Most guards would likely still see you. Compare to stacking the bonus onto an already high skill, now even with fate points or high alertness guard monsters you can likely get past).
There is the interesting question of enchanted items. Personally I would disallow enchanted items for such a character, the demon is not turning you into an alchemist or enchanter, he is lending you access to magic power. I would however allow the character to spend his slots on focus items. There is no reason he cant craft a focus item, then when he looses the powers just carry around a big stick or sword with runes on it until he picks the power back up. If you want to make the power uncontrolled that is a choice you make as a player (or enforce as a GM) it probably shouldn't be a condition of the rules. To do this just make a character with higher conviction than discipline and don't craft heavy control foci, make power foci instead.
There is no reason the character couldn't just buy his magic separately from the modular/temporary abilities if he wanted to have it always, but I see no reason to force that choice.
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I was going to recommend a hunger track, but you'd already made a custom power so I'd decided to leave it. But since you brought it up, this is how I'd deal with it.
Write up your list of powers (and it could be a long list depending on the host demon and the refresh of the character), and tie it to feeding dependancy.
Before the character uses a power, let them choose whether they take a point of sponsored debt.
"sure you can have this power, but you owe me later"
If they choose this, they don't have to roll against their hunger.
If they don't choose the sponsor debt, they use whatever powers they like, and roll against hunger as normal.
They can take consequences(probably mental) that represent favours to the demon if they fail - anything you can compel that would represent the demon punishing, or taking back for using it.
If they choose to take hunger stress, it can be represented two ways:
Your spirit cutting itself off to protect itself
The Demon cutting you off for trying to assert control over it.
When you get taken out by hunger stress, that could be your body(soul) going through withdrawl, or having to recouperate. Or maybe it can be time that the demon has full control of the host - a free chance to forward its own goals.
You may be able to use sponsored debt to buy off stress as well.
Just a thought.
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I was going to recommend a hunger track, but you'd already made a custom power so I'd decided to leave it. But since you brought it up, this is how I'd deal with it.
Write up your list of powers (and it could be a long list depending on the host demon and the refresh of the character), and tie it to feeding dependancy.
Before the character uses a power, let them choose whether they take a point of sponsored debt.
"sure you can have this power, but you owe me later"
If they choose this, they don't have to roll against their hunger.
If they don't choose the sponsor debt, they use whatever powers they like, and roll against hunger as normal.
They can take consequences(probably mental) that represent favours to the demon if they fail - anything you can compel that would represent the demon punishing, or taking back for using it.
If they choose to take hunger stress, it can be represented two ways:
Your spirit cutting itself off to protect itself
The Demon cutting you off for trying to assert control over it.
When you get taken out by hunger stress, that could be your body(soul) going through withdrawl, or having to recouperate. Or maybe it can be time that the demon has full control of the host - a free chance to forward its own goals.
You may be able to use sponsored debt to buy off stress as well.
Just a thought.
The problem with that is one Centarion brought up earlier - you're basically taking Feeding Dependencey and Sponsor Debt. The system I came up with isn't a hard enforcement for the Demonhost's nature, like a Feeding Dependency would be - it's a soft, GM-driven one. It'd be easy to compel the Host the more he uses his powers, and the Temporary Powers thing works well, as in most encounters, you won't really need it, if you have decent skills. When you do need it, you can have that extra power - but at a steep price.
I have to disagree with you (InFerrumVeritas) on this one. You are already paying 2 refresh in order to be able to swap around abilities. That compensates for a large part of the benefit you gain from being able to switch over to physical powers when you fill up your mental stress. You already have put a significant character investment into spell casting, if you want your casting to be effective you need to dedicate at least 2 apex skills to it, and you are effectively paying 2 refresh for the privilege of dropping your casting when you run out of stress. Also, I would require at least one exchange to shuffle around powers (normally modular abilities works with true shape shifting, and that normally takes an exchange) so you are taking a disadvantage if you try to drop your casting (in my experience most combats end fast enough that sitting out a round is fairly major).
I think you are also underestimating the cost of taking all that mental stress. If there does end up being a problem where the character repeatedly blows through their casting and then fights the rest of the prolonged fights (one of the ways to tone down casters) using physical powers (thus negating this disadvantage) the GM should introduce some enemies that attack the mental stress track (like red court vamps using narcotic saliva or white court with incite emotion, or something else entirely). Further, the GM may just compel the character with the filled in mental stress track to get into a fight with the demon for control right after a fight.
Also you seem to think that being able to swap to other abilities will help mitigate the skill investment, that is false in many cases. In fact, you will often be at a disadvantage because you built your character to cast (or fight) and now you are forced to do the other. Adding inhuman strength does not compensate for a lack of fists or weapons skill, it makes it worse (as it is harder for you to connect and make use of that refresh). It is true that speed can help you compensate for low defenses, but often times, adding a bonus to a skill you have at 1 or 2 is way less potent than adding a bonus to a skill already at 5 (Would you take cloak of shadows on a 1 stealth character? Would it be very good? Most guards would likely still see you. Compare to stacking the bonus onto an already high skill, now even with fate points or high alertness guard monsters you can likely get past).
There is the interesting question of enchanted items. Personally I would disallow enchanted items for such a character, the demon is not turning you into an alchemist or enchanter, he is lending you access to magic power. I would however allow the character to spend his slots on focus items. There is no reason he cant craft a focus item, then when he looses the powers just carry around a big stick or sword with runes on it until he picks the power back up. If you want to make the power uncontrolled that is a choice you make as a player (or enforce as a GM) it probably shouldn't be a condition of the rules. To do this just make a character with higher conviction than discipline and don't craft heavy control foci, make power foci instead.
There is no reason the character couldn't just buy his magic separately from the modular/temporary abilities if he wanted to have it always, but I see no reason to force that choice.
At the moment, I'll leave it as-is, since I feel the Demon might go 'Spellcasting? You want MAGIC now? Well, I can give you that, but it'll cost you...', which justifies the extra Refresh. I'll add in that some tables might allow the Host to take this under Modular Abilities/Temporary Powers (I'd definitely allow it under the latter - crazy, fast power is what that part is FOR).
I agree on enchanteds. Not so sure on Foci.
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If you disallow both Enchanted Items AND Foci, you'll have to compensate them for that loss, somehow, and I'm not sure what would be fair.
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I'd say you could have Foci if you bought Magic seperately from the Modular Abilities. Getting Channeling:Hellfire for 1 Form Point seems a bit too powerful, though.
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Getting Channeling:Hellfire for 1 Form Point seems a bit too powerful, though.
I agree.
However, paying 2 points for Channeling (Hellfire or otherwise) without gaining the Focus slots would be too punitive.
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Maybe you could allow Foci as physical manifestations of the Demon? Like you don't have them when you don't have magic, but can summon/create them when you do? Kinda flavoured like the Blackstaff-summoning in Changes. I'd say it wuld take a full action, with a difficulty roll of some kind, and possibly a point of Mental Stress. Maybe Lore, against the difficulty of the number of Focus slots it would use. One could, of course, accept Sponsor Debt to aid in this. I'd also say that you'd have to lock down the Focus before creation, as normal - no switching them on the fly or between summonings!
That said, summonable Foci seems a little powerful, although I suppose taking an action to summon them, taking a point of Mental Stress and having to make a difficulty Roll would mitigate that. It would also make the Foci be a decent investment, which I like. This template is all about 'power for a price', after all. THey would, obviously, dissolve if you got rid of Magic, or, if you wanted to make them last a little longer, at the end of the scene.
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The price paid for the availability of Foci is included in the price for the spellcasting Power itself.
I like the flavour of manifesting physical traits of the demon to aid in channeling the magic that it provides, though.
Not having your Foci available is already just a Compel, and Compels are not themselves bad things (you get paid for them, after all). These Foci-replacements simply would not be viable targets for such Compels (though they'd likely be magnets for other Compels, such as your demon-possessed nature becoming rather clearly evident, even to the uninitiated).
At most, I'd call manifesting your 'Foci' a supplemental action with no other cost or roll.
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Sure, one could do that. Remeber, though, that the Demonhost has Human Guise. Whenever they use their powers at all it's obvious - stuff like all their veins turning black, skin turning the colour of ash, etc. I'd say one couldn't summon foci at the same time as reshuffling one's powers as well.
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I like the template.
Not sure why to bother with this summonable focus stuff, though. Why not let people make foci normally, but not have them work when the spellcasting Powers are unavailable?
As for spellcasting, it's not really very impressive unless you have the skills. So I wouldn't worry about the balance of Modular Evocation.
Thaumaturgy's another matter, though. Since it's not useful in combat, it does not conflict with other Power options.
Can you think of a situation where Evocation + Thaumaturgy is better than Modular Abilities 3, buying Evocation or Thaumaturgy whenever you want them?
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I like the template.
Not sure why to bother with this summonable focus stuff, though. Why not let people make foci normally, but not have them work when the spellcasting Powers are unavailable?
As for spellcasting, it's not really very impressive unless you have the skills. So I wouldn't worry about the balance of Modular Evocation.
Thaumaturgy's another matter, though. Since it's not useful in combat, it does not conflict with other Power options.
Can you think of a situation where Evocation + Thaumaturgy is better than Modular Abilities 3, buying Evocation or Thaumaturgy whenever you want them?
Well, since one can't take evocation or thaumaturgy under the modualr abilities, this shouldn't be aporblem. You're only allowed Channeling.
They're better in the fact that you have them all the time, and I'd rule that using them without sponsoring would not break the Human Guise. If you got them under modular abilities, using them would break the guise. It takes a full action to change your abilities, which means you can't make rollable supplementary actions (like spellcasting).