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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Don on January 18, 2013, 10:53:05 AM
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I'm sure this happens all the time.. I came up with what I thought was an original idea, but somebody had beat me to it. Nothing is new under the sun, and all that jazz.
I'll probably never get around to writing it, but I had an idea for a novel that blended contemporary urban fantasy with sword and horse through the simple expedient of introducing something I've been calling "the Shadow". It came upon humanity as a surprise, and nobody (it seems) really know what caused it, why it happened, or how to reverse it.
The Shadow is some substance that had flooded the earth that caused a complete arrest of not only technology, radio waves, electricity, etc... but also combustion itself (happily taking guns out of the equation, as well). This is just a plot device, though. The world-building, the characters, and the messages would all be my own.
The problem is that the idea isn't so original. The show "Revolution" is using the same idea, but I've been told that an author named S.M. Sterling had published a novel using that very same idea in 2004. I haven't read it, and I don't want to for fear of it having an influence over me if and when I do decide to write this thing.
Which leads me to my question: If I did write a novel using this idea as a major plot device, and I put my own spin on things to make it a unique story, would I then be able to submit it to agents without those agents rejecting it outright because of a "stolen" idea? I've read enough Butcher to understand that borrowing ideas is part of the craft... *cough*Pokemon*cough*... but this seems to me to be more significant than that.
I don't know why I'm worrying about it. I'll probably never get around to it, and even if I do finish it, I don't really stand a chance at getting published. I have about /zero/ fiction writing experience. If I do this, it'll just be something that I do for myself (and maybe I can force it upon a few of my closer friends). I have free time, I'm leaning towards getting serious about time management and actually giving this a serious go..
Thoughts?
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Difficult one.
I think in your situation, I would feel I should read the Stirling and watch the TV series, to see what they do and how they do it, and to get a handle on how what I wanted to do was distinct. (If it was distinct enough; I have abandoned projects because the precise things I wanted to do with them were done enough better by other authors that there didn't seem any point. But I have read enough S.M. Stirling to be very confident that the political landscape of any setting I wrote in would be quite different from something of his.)
No matter where what you did stands in relation to those works, they'd be the points of comparison that readers of your work are most likely to have. I don't think you could avoid being compared to them in reviews. I think it's quite possible you could come up with a worthwhile different spin on the idea; I don't want to think too much about it in case I come up with one of my own, because I have too many projects already.
Also, if your Shadow stops electricity, why does a human nervous system still work under its influence ?
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I'd go ahead and write it and THEN read/watch the other media. Don't worry about it being potentially sellable; if its a story you really want to tell you should just do it. You can go always go back and change some things if it turns out to be too derivative.
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I'd go ahead and write it and THEN read/watch the other media. Don't worry about it being potentially sellable; if its a story you really want to tell you should just do it. You can go always go back and change some things if it turns out to be too derivative.
If you're the kind of writer who can go back and change elements in a finished work at that scale, then that sounds workable. I'm pretty much not, myself, and I do not generally find I have to worry about other people's visions of things getting in the way of my own, which would be why I gave the advice I did. As with most writing advice, which is actually better for a given writer depends on the details of their own process, I would reckon.
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I think a setting or theme that is similar to others is ok, I read a lot of end of world or post apoc novels, quite a few have similar themes to them.
As a fan of the genre, I do not pesonally care as much how the world ended/ got to its current state, I care a lot more what happens next, and thats where your story becomes unique.
The zombie genre is a good example, tons of novels these days with zombies, but thats ok as long as the story that goes along with the zombies is different from the other books already on the shelves I happily buy them.
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Also, if your Shadow stops electricity, why does a human nervous system still work under its influence ?
Living things have a built in threshold-like property that keeps the Shadow from penetrating. It's also checked by other things, but I don't really want to talk about all that. I can say that I see these complications, and I understand that understanding the physics behind what I'm doing is important.
I'm not saying I have it all worked out, but I have a few workarounds.
I'd go ahead and write it and THEN read/watch the other media. Don't worry about it being potentially sellable; if its a story you really want to tell you should just do it. You can go always go back and change some things if it turns out to be too derivative.
I still have to make an outline for the story as it exists in my head today. I have 80 pages of copy that I decided to reject but keep for spare parts. Maybe I should plan out the story and then compare notes...
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I like the workaround you used to explain why the nervous system still works, the same logic can be applied to why pacemakers and the like have not stopped working. I have to say though, it gives me a (sort of hilarious) terrible image of genetically engineered cat-guns, what is essentially is normally a cat is also, well, a gun. The combustion happens inside of the cat, so the shadow wouldn't affect it.
I'm a terrible person.
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I like the workaround you used to explain why the nervous system still works, the same logic can be applied to why pacemakers and the like have not stopped working. I have to say though, it gives me a (sort of hilarious) terrible image of genetically engineered cat-guns, what is essentially is normally a cat is also, well, a gun. The combustion happens inside of the cat, so the shadow wouldn't affect it.
I'm a terrible person.
:P
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It just so happens I've read S.M. Sterling's books, and I can tell you, it starts off like regualr world, but then it goes more into the magical realm as the books go on. But yeah, they're pretty good.
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Ilona Andrews' Kate Daniels series has something vaguely similar. Magic entered the world at a certain point and vies with technology. When a magic wave hits there's no tech and when it subsides the tech works. So people are using horses and coal stoves just in case magic hits and they can't depend on their technology. The leading lady wields a sword. I know that's not exactly what you're talking about, but it seems vaguely like it, so the basic premise is out there in various forms. You may as well go for it. :)
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I liked the early books in the S.M. Sterling world of "Changes" but the later books kind of drag on. Steven Boyett wrote a story along the same lines in the early eighties, and that didn't stop Sterling :)
I say go for it, whether you read the other books or not. The Steven Boyett novel is "Ariel" btw, and its fun but by no means polished.
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There is also the Magic Time trilogy. A government experiment brings magic back, and shuts down science. In the third book, and means was created that allowed science to work. Don, what about fire?
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Don, what about fire?
I don't really want to get into details here, but there can only be fire in places the Shadow can't reach. Military scouts on the new frontier have to endure some pretty horrible winters.
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Definitely write it, and see where you get with it. If nothing else, everything you write helps improve your craft.
You can always change things if an agent or publisher thinks it's too similar to something that's already out there. Take it from a guy who re-wrote his second book from scratch, there's always a way.
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There is also the Lady Pendragon comic book series. Magic came back when the heroine pulled Excalibre from the stone.
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For that matter, I'm working on a very similar concept: technology, for X reason, abruptly doesn't work. Now what? And yeah, when Revolution came out, I thought "Oh well, time to toss this one in the trash." The thing is, though, given the same exact starting point, the writers of Revolution and I went in radically different directions. We're not even sort of telling the same story, despite the same starting point.
I recently saw somewhere -- and I want to say it was on Chuck Wendig's Terrible Minds blog 'cause he's big with the pithy writing advice except there wasn't nearly enough profanity in it for it to have come from Wendig -- a bit of advice that went something like, "It doesn't matter if someone else had the same story idea you had. Tell yourself that you can do it better." That's what I'm doing. I like my idea, my interpretation, way better. I do like Revolution, but the more I watch it, the more dissatisfied I get if only because I keep thinking, "Man, there were SO MANY better ways y'all could've gone with the basic idea."
Besides, their interpretation is informed by their details, most importantly the detail of what made tech stop working. Just as with your notion, my version of what made tech stop working necessarily takes my story in a wildly different direction. The inciting incident in Revolution is a key story point. The weapons research, the amulets, are all the focus for the show: who has them, who wants them, what they'll do to get them/keep them. That's simply not the case in my story. What happened and why is incidental. To meme things up a bit, ain't nobody got time fo' dat in my world.
So write it. I've got $20 in my pocket right now that says even if you had quite literally the EXACT same starting point, amulets and all, you'd be writing a completely different story. And odds are very good you'll like your story better. So write it. There's an audience out there who'll like it better, too.
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So I agree with most of what has been said here. Even if you tried to write exactly the same story, each person is so different, the resulting story would be quite different.
But I don't understand the legalities that are mentioned a number of times on this site. I think there are some writers that are so protective of their ideas that they'll sue anyone that writes fan fiction or anything that comes close to being the same. I'd think in general when things are close you'll have readers that will make the comparison, and when you come up short I doubt you would have much worries about law suits. It's when you're incredibly successful that you have to worry about the jealous authors wanting a piece of your profits by trying to sue you. That being said, it sounds like you'd have more to worry about with all the things you haven't read. But I'm still hoping to understand all of these things better. (You might only have to worry about it when you get to a Jim Butcher or J. K. Rowlings status ... Which means be excited if you have to worry about it! Until then don't worry, and have fun writing.)
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Don, just write it! Worry for similarities later-
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So I agree with most of what has been said here. Even if you tried to write exactly the same story, each person is so different, the resulting story would be quite different.
But I don't understand the legalities that are mentioned a number of times on this site. I think there are some writers that are so protective of their ideas that they'll sue anyone that writes fan fiction or anything that comes close to being the same. I'd think in general when things are close you'll have readers that will make the comparison, and when you come up short I doubt you would have much worries about law suits. It's when you're incredibly successful that you have to worry about the jealous authors wanting a piece of your profits by trying to sue you. That being said, it sounds like you'd have more to worry about with all the things you haven't read. But I'm still hoping to understand all of these things better. (You might only have to worry about it when you get to a Jim Butcher or J. K. Rowlings status ... Which means be excited if you have to worry about it! Until then don't worry, and have fun writing.)
I think you're confusing content with concepts. For example, I am writing about a Wizard in today's world. That is the same basic concept as the Dresden Files. But I'm not writing Dresden Files. My content is completely different from what Jim is writing.
Here's a copuple of examples of the differece between Concept and content:
Concept: Giant robots fighting each other
Content: Battletech, Gundam, Macross
Concept: Sherlock Holmes in the modern world
Content: Sherlock, Elementry
Jim doesn't have ownership of the concept of a modern-day wizard. What he owns is the content, his take on the modern-day wizard. My wizard cannot be facing the Summer and Winter Farie, the Black Council, and the assorted foes as Jim writes it. I cannot have gray-cloaked Wardens working for the White Council. While I have vampies, they aren't set up as Red, Black and White Court. The Summer or Winter Knight cannot exist in my world as Jim writes them.
So, I write to make my wizard as different as I can from Jim's with MY take on the world and MY take on the vampires/Farie. I have to create my own form of magic that it my worlds own.
Look at Jim's Furies series -- I head that someone dared him to write a novel based on the Roman Empire and Pokemon. I see both concepts, but I'm never going to mistaken a Pikichoo for a Fury, nor Aleria's legions for Ceasar's legions. Two concepts, different content.
So, I can take any concept I see, but as long as I write it using my own content, I'm fine. Star Wars wasn't the first one to use the "Rebels vs. evil empire," concept. I can use that concept, as long as I avoid wholsale use of Smugglars, ancient order of knights, An evil empire's superweapon, Walking fur carpets, backwater famers who happen to be the hope for the future, and a large armored bad guy.
Concepts are universal: content is the key.
Craig
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I think you're confusing content with concepts. For example, I am writing about a Wizard in today's world. That is the same basic concept as the Dresden Files. But I'm not writing Dresden Files. My content is completely different from what Jim is writing.
Here's a copuple of examples of the differece between Concept and content:
Concept: Giant robots fighting each other
Content: Battletech, Gundam, Macross
Concept: Sherlock Holmes in the modern world
Content: Sherlock, Elementry
You have a number of good points. But I think in the spectrum of things, even fan fiction, which borrows not only concept but also content, is sometimes OK and a good way to get recognized for you're writing tallents. But where exactly on that spectrum you have to worry, I don't know. I think that certainly you're safe, Craig. And that you have good advice on a safe distance to stay.
I think you'll still have to worry about how readers compare you with others who use the same concept, I think that's unavoidable. So even when you are borrowing just concepts, I think you have to ask yourself, "What is it in my story that is uniquely AWESOME." And if you can't think of anything, you might be in trouble. But since there is something about the story that is driving you to write it, I imagine you'll find it. If you capitalize on that, then your good.
(At least until you reach a Jim Butcher, J.K. Rowlings status ;), when people might search through your books looking for the content that's close enough that they think they might get money from you by legal means -- And even then, I think you should be fine. But, I'm no leagal expert.)