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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Autumn2005 on July 03, 2010, 08:46:38 PM
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I'm a total noob to pen and paper RPG games, I admit, so I have some questions. I've been reading over the PDF version, but computer reading tends to make me skip lines, so I think I missed something... So refresh points is when the characters renew themselves, and if the refresh is 0 or below, the character becomes a creature, following nature rather than free will? But then why do all the stats in the books except some vanilla mortals have -# refresh points? So people like Shiro and Harry are considered without freewill? How do you ever get more refresh points if they're always in the negative?
WHAT AM I MISSING HERE??? ???
Okay, any answers are appreciated.
Thanks ;D
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The negative numbers at the bottom of the character write ups are the Refresh Costs of their combined totals of stunts and powers, not their refresh. For instance Harry being a starting level submerged character who has a lot of power his total refresh cost is -9 meaning he only has 1 Fate Point worth of refresh. While some other more powerful characters have refresh costs of -11 or higher meaning that they are experienced characters who have experienced several major milestones allowing them to up their refresh and retain their free will and keep them as playable characters.
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the cost is sort of a do it yourself. basically the books say "they are this powerful right now" and its up to you to decide how much free will to give them. so if you played dresden in a submerged game he would have 1 fate point to start. if you played murphy in a submerged game she would have 6 fate points to start. so the books say how much they cost and you say how much free will you would like them to have.
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So... the refresh points are 10? Minus the refresh cost? But then how do higher level characters still maintain freewill? Does the refresh points ever go above 10?
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So... the refresh points are 10? Minus the refresh cost? But then how do higher level characters still maintain freewill? Does the refresh points ever go above 10?
The Refresh points are whatever you, the GM, say they are. So, you might give the Senior council a base of 25, or 40, or whatever, then subtract their Refresh Cost, and what's left is their Fate Points. If they're into negatives, they've given up free will and are subject to one free compel per point into the negatives they are.
Now, how ou determine base Refresh is up to you, but using the base PC power levels (6-10) isn't too bad an idea for purposes of characters intended to be their equals. Main villains are likely to have somewhat more.
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Also, whenever you hit a major milestone, your refresh increases by 1.
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Ah! That's what I kept missing! So the GM sets the number of refresh points. Is it the same for each character, or do different character have different refresh points based on level, or its up to the GM? And the group as a whole gets more refresh points at every milestone? So a low level of refresh points would make a more challenging game, and a high level would make an easier game, according to the GM?
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To clarify my last statements, a high number of refresh points means a low-level, relatively powerful character, and a low number of refresh means that the talents available are more limited? And then if a character is in negative refresh level, he owes free compels to the GM until his debt is paid off? So it is possible to have a negative number PC, I thought I read it as if your PCs get negative refresh points, they are forced to be NPCs.
Total noob, as I said.
How do you know what level the characters are at? All I saw were levels like "Feet in the Water" "Knee High" "Waist High" and "Submerged."
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Feet in the Water/Up to Your Waist/Chest Deep/Submerged are the PC power levels; the group starts out at whatever is appropriate for the game. When a major milestone is reached, the refresh total goes up by 1, allowing for advancement in power while retaining free will. But not all NPCs need to be built on the same refresh total as the PC party; somebody who's ~400, like Ancient Mai, has probably amassed a lot of advancement in her lifetime.
Also, those are just the suggested PC power levels; there's no particular reason you couldn't start a game at 12 or 15 base refresh (for a Warden team game, maybe) or even higher (there were some posts a week or so ago about an 18 base refresh game).
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There's base refresh and then refresh (net refresh?) Base refresh roughly determines power level. Another huge factor in power is the skill cap, which the GM can choose to never raise. Now, if you choose to hold on to a bunch of base refresh and not get powers, I think you are probably going to be underpowered at some point.
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So depending on your playing style, it's to your advantage to use maybe half your refresh points for powers, and half left over for fate points? Also, I know the GM controls the NPCs, but does the GM ever have their own character? Or is that sort of self serving? Maybe take turns being GM so that the main GM can have a character too?
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Also, I know the GM controls the NPCs, but does the GM ever have their own character? Or is that sort of self serving?
The answer to that is going to be different depending on the GM. I personally always have a character I make with the rest of the players and play my character while GMing. But to do that, the GM has to be able to keep their character's knowledge separate from their GM knowledge, just like IC vs OOC, but a little trickier since the GM knows everything. Basicly a GM is only going to have their own character if they want to, and should only have one if they can handle the extra load a GMC has over an NPC.
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Generally speaking, the GM does not control a character. The GMPC, as its generally called, is a very difficult thing to pull off, and even the best GMs often upstage the players by accident when the do it. And less quality GMs are responsible for the entire practice being viewed as a warning sign of a railroading jerk by more wary players--it only takes one bad experience for people to turn against an idea, and there are a great many GMs who will readily provide that experience.
As a frequent GM, and someone who prefers playing to running games, I've gotta say, this kinda sucks. But I vastly prefer GMing without a character than trying to run a GMPC.
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There are three 'measures' of power that give some indication about how powerful your character actually is:
Total Refresh
Total Skill points
Skill Cap
The 'submerged', 'feet wet', etc labels you see are short hand for combinations of refresh, total skill points, and skill cap. In general, the refresh total shows the potential for supernatural powers, while the skill cap and total skill points show 'human skill'. So, for example, if you wanted to do a young wizard game, you might have a high refresh total, so that everyone has enough refresh to 'buy' the full suite of wizard powers, but you might have a lower skill point total and skill cap to represent their in-experience. Or if you want to represent some very competent normal humans or low powered supernaturals, you might do the opposite and have a low base refresh and high skills.
Who GMs and when is much more a social issue among the group. Some people get more out of being the GM than others, some GMs get tired of being the GM all the time faster than others, etc. Each group has to come to their own arrangements concerning this sort of thing. However, people normally do recommend against the GM 'running' their own PC in the game, more for the social fallout this tend to cause among the group, rather than any game mechanical concerns.
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Just wanted to add to the GMPC portion of the conversation, some GMs can handle it very well, usally in cases where the group just lacks a certain skill group. I have seen this most in shadowrun where very often you don't have someone playing the "hacker role" because it can be a pain, so i have had GMs that would create a PC character to essentially fill in the hole in the team so it does not hold up play...
On a side note... Shadowrun using DFRPG? Hm, going to have to think about that.
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Just wanted to add to the GMPC portion of the conversation, some GMs can handle it very well, usally in cases where the group just lacks a certain skill group. I have seen this most in shadowrun where very often you don't have someone playing the "hacker role" because it can be a pain, so i have had GMs that would create a PC character to essentially fill in the hole in the team so it does not hold up play...
On a side note... Shadowrun using DFRPG? Hm, going to have to think about that.
Shadowrun and similar role based games are easier to handle GMPCs in than others, because it is all but impossible for a non-cheating GMPC to outshine the PCs in their areas of expertise. However, for a guy new to tabletop gaming, its probably best if we stay off of such topics in this thread.
I would be down for discussing Shadowrun adaptations in another thread though XD
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So GMs pretty much run everything? So you need at least two other players besides the GM to make the game?
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In my experience, three people is the basic minimum, unless you can find two people with a really strong dynamic. I generally consider GMing for three to six people to be my "comfort zone."
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What do you mean a really strong dynamic? The GM pretty much does most of the plot line, like an author, and the players (characters) have to figure it out?
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What do you mean a really strong dynamic? The GM pretty much does most of the plot line, like an author, and the players (characters) have to figure it out?
He means you want to players that are at a Kirk/Spock level of interaction rather than say a Anakin/Padme level. If there's not good (non-romantic) chemistry between the two players, ten the game can get really boring.
Personally I find 6 players to be a bit taxing. 3-5 works pretty well.
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I just want to say thanks for letting me pick your brains for all this stuff I HAVE NO CLUE about! ;D
And as I ask more questions...
When choosing skills for a character, can you choose certain skills to be at Poor (-1) or Terrible (-2) to gain more skill points elsewhere?
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When choosing skills for a character, can you choose certain skills to be at Poor (-1) or Terrible (-2) to gain more skill points elsewhere?
Fraid not
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Dang, I was hoping. I thought it'd be funny to have a character that can absolutely NOT drive. I relate. I've totaled 3 cars in the last 2 years.
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Dang, I was hoping. I thought it'd be funny to have a character that can absolutely NOT drive. I relate. I've totaled 3 cars in the last 2 years.
Yeah the lowest skill level a character can have is mediocre +0, but at the same time this means that anyone can try to use any skill at no penalty. If you want a character to be a terrible driver the best way to do that is to start them with no Driving skill, and then give them an Aspect like "Moving Violation" and then compel the hell out of it.
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That's an idea... would rack up fate points too. Of course, while I was able to walk away from all those totals unharmed, no garuantee my character would. Okay, what about an inhuman character like a WCV, you have to take on Inhuman Strength, but could you take Supernatural strength instead?
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I would say yes. The WCV's get stronger as they get older. however, unless it was a Submerged(Refresh 10) level game, or the player had a REALLY convincing explanation, I would urge them to just take more points in the might skill instead (The powers don't seem like much at first, but they really do give a hefty boost to the character. A little goes a long way in the game).
Also, Inhuman Strength is a part of the initial cost of the WCV template. So if you allow them to "Upgrade", they'd be switching out inhuman, with Supernatural strength, and only paying 2 additional Refresh points.
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Can a player have more than one character, or is that recommended against?
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Can a player have more than one character, or is that recommended against?
It can and has been done, but there are risks. It is possible for players of multiple characters to abuse the privilege by playing characters as if they have the knowledge of other characters, or by sharing goodies among the characters too freely. If a GM thinks she can control these behaviors, it's perfectly possible to have more than one character per player.
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I agree with the above, and have seen it happen a few times.
Another problem that generally arises in 1 player running multiple characters (and one that comes up more often in my experience) is that the player might end up only roleplaying one of the characters (speaking through this one character, having a fully developed personality and background for him, and interacting with the group only with him), while the other character just becomes a list of extra stats and powers that the group can pull out whenever they need them.
Its best if the players each make up one fully developed and thought out character, and worry about playing him/her well. Its really hard to run 2 completely different characters at the same time, without falling into the "Main Character"/"Backup Character" problem.
I'd say, unless you think your players are capable of portraying 2 separate human beings believably, at the same time, don't let them play multiple PC's.
If the PC group ends up not having certain skills/powers that might be useful in the story, thats a perfectly good opportunity to force them to jump through hoops to convince an NPC that has those gifts to help them.
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Aye. multiple characters is a major problem. It is extremely difficult to effectively roleplay interactions between two characters you control. Supremely difficult to role-play significant disagreements. Overall it just isn't a good idea.
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On the topic of multiple characters per player:
You generally need to have some sort of structure to the game that facilitates such a thing. Just having multiple characters without such a structure can create issues.
Ars Magica is an example of a game that is set up with multiple characters per player. Each player controls a magus, one or two "companions," and a handful of "grogs." Companions are heroic characters with great skills and abilities. Grogs are servants who are often only minimally talented.
You switch between which group you're playing at any given moment. You might play a magus leading an expedition with a number of companions and grogs one session. Then you switch back to the grogs who were left behind in the base of operations and play a light hearted interlude the next session.
It's actually pretty clever. I could see something like that working for Dresden Files, where the players make up some sort of organization and play various members of it at any given moment. It could make for an interesting game.
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Dang, I was hoping. I thought it'd be funny to have a character that can absolutely NOT drive. I relate. I've totaled 3 cars in the last 2 years.
Even better, give the guy a high deceit skill and an obsession with driving, but with aspects like 'moving violation' and 'walks away unscathed'.
He always wants to drive, he always persuades people that he won't crash the car, he always crashes it! :)
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Aye. multiple characters is a major problem. It is extremely difficult to effectively roleplay interactions between two characters you control. Supremely difficult to role-play significant disagreements. Overall it just isn't a good idea.
With a lot of scheduling problems within my usual group (between players missing games for work, others missing sessions for child custody disputes and even one of my players being in jail once), I've created a small pool of backup characters that a player can choose from to run in a session instead of their own character. If all you've got to work with is a couple of skill monkeys and the party mechanic and they're about to assault a vampire base to rescue an important NPC, they might want to swap in a couple of more combat capable characters instead. I don't restrict a backup character to any particular player, mainly to avoid the Clark/Superman issue "You know, we only ever see Bob when Jim isn't here." Each is given their own background and personality and I reward good roleplay for these characters to help players avoid thinking about them as just a different set of skills/powers for their main character's personality. They also come in very handy when a guest player shows up, the guest gets to play an established character that the group already knows and has worked with in the past so there is minimal disruption in incorporating them into the story.