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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Lancer on November 26, 2010, 07:36:21 AM

Title: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Lancer on November 26, 2010, 07:36:21 AM

Hello everyone, forum lurker here.

I just bought the DFRPG and have read through most of it, but I'm pretty new to RPGs and brand new to the FATE system so I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed. (Trying to design a game right now)

I was hoping to start up a thread here to maybe have you good folks gimme a hand with some stuff I'm having trouble understanding.

I pretty much understand the character and city creation pretty well, my main concern is that I can't get a good handle on how this combat system works. I know that characters have stress boxes, but it seems like you only have 3-4 of those, does that mean  you only get 3-4 hitponts, because that feels like not alot at all. I'm really lost how consequences work, are they just arbitrary? Does the GM decide when a character takes consequences? How long do they last?

If someone could explain this combat system to me in some laymans terms I would be eternally grateful.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: crusher_bob on November 26, 2010, 08:11:52 AM

Here's (http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-magical-fight) one of my sample combats for you to take a look at.

Remember that you only mark off the stress box you took, not all the ones under that (like other damage systems). So, for example, if you have 4 stress and take a 3 stress hit, your stress boxes look like:
OOXO
and not
XXXO

So if you take a 2 stress hit after that:
OXXO.

This means that something with a lot of stress boxes can soak up several hits
We'll look at something with supernatural toughness
stress: OOOO(OOOO)

If it took a stress 5 hit, then a stress 7 hit, then another stress 7 hit, (we'll ignore it's armor for now) it's stress boxes would look like:
OOOO(XOOO) (stress 5 hit)
OOOO(XOXO) (1st stress 7 hit)
OOOO(XOXX) (2nd stress 7 hit, as the 7th box is already full, damage rolls up to the 8th stress box)

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Exactly what the 'text' of the consequence is is basically arbitrary.  For example, you could get a sprained ankle as a consequence from gunfire because you sprained your ankle diving out of the way.  

Duration for consequences is listed on p204 or so.  With some related stuff about time on p315 or so.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: aardvark on November 26, 2010, 08:25:17 AM

Quote from: Lancer on November 26, 2010, 07:36:21 AM

I know that characters have stress boxes, but it seems like you only have 3-4 of those, does that mean  you only get 3-4 hitponts, because that feels like not alot at all.

Stress boxes is more like an condensed hit points. When you get hit by some stress you mark coresponding stress box, i.e., 1 stress hit — First stress box, 2 stress hit — Second stress box etc. So if you think this way 3 stress box character get 1+2+3 = 6 hitpoints. This is not realy true, but we can think that way :)

Quote from: Lancer on November 26, 2010, 07:36:21 AM

I'm really lost how consequences work, are they just arbitrary? Does the GM decide when a character takes consequences? How long do they last?

Consequences is arbitrary. When you get hit and you out of corresponding stress boxes to check you have a choise: declare yourself "taken out" or take consequences to ease the blow by number based on consequence severity (2/4/6 ladder). Example
OOO hit by 5 stress attack. he may:
1)declare himself "taken out"  because he miss 5 point stress box, or
2)take a mild consequence, ease damage by 2 and get 3 point stress hit effectively checking third stress box and stay in conflict.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on November 26, 2010, 08:30:22 AM

Quote from: Lancer on November 26, 2010, 07:36:21 AM

I'm really lost how consequences work, are they just arbitrary? Does the GM decide when a character takes consequences? How long do they last?

   The player decides when to use his Consequences. He can apply them to his character against any incoming attack to reduce the stress of the attack by the amount listed under the consequence.
 
    For example.
     If a player has 2 physical stress boxes, and a thug hits him with a baseball bat for 3 stress, this would be enough to take him out, but the player can use a consequence. He uses his minor consequence to reduce the stress of the attack by 2, but in return has to add the Aspect "Mild Concussion" to his character, until the consequence heals. This reduces the attack to 1 stress and leaves the character on his feet, but with another aspect you can use against him.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Haru on November 26, 2010, 11:13:19 AM

I remembered there was a great example of a conflict, so I searched through the threads and finally found it:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20530.0.html

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: mostlyawake on November 26, 2010, 11:23:59 AM

In general, though, you should know that this game is way more cinematic than things like dnd, and that, yes, fights are generally shorter and character "damage" in the form of consequences is not easily healed.  Many of our fights end with one side conceding after 1-2 "rounds".

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Wilder on November 26, 2010, 01:45:15 PM

Though when you consider it, it just shows the amount of power being thrown around. A 5 stress fire evocation can "take someone out" or make them take a consiquence.

Also, it mirrors the Books. In the Dresdenverse, people play for keeps. Unless theres a specific reason to keep them alive (ie mortal or he neds info) Harry doesn't pull punches.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Belial666 on November 26, 2010, 01:58:43 PM

Quote

fights are generally shorter and character "damage" in the form of consequences is not easily healed.

Not true. Fights are generally shorter and consequences not easily healed if a) you are human or equally fragile  and b) you haven't played said character in a campaign long enough to accumulate enough power.  If you're playing an ogre changeling, a nephilim, a demon-possessed entity, a vampire and any other tough type of creature, you could well take half a dozen blasts from a wizard before going down and, if you survive, heal up within the hour.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: mostlyawake on November 26, 2010, 05:00:35 PM

Quote from: Belial666 on November 26, 2010, 01:58:43 PM

Not true. Fights are generally shorter and consequences not easily healed if a) you are human or equally fragile  and b) you haven't played said character in a campaign long enough to accumulate enough power.  If you're playing an ogre changeling, a nephilim, a demon-possessed entity, a vampire and any other tough type of creature, you could well take half a dozen blasts from a wizard before going down and, if you survive, heal up within the hour.

True.  And even a decent wizard can easily push an item like, er, a +7 block four times a session.  Which can essentially mean 4 exchanges before any real damage gets through.  You CAN make the game into a slug-fest to the death between well-protected PCs and uber-monsters.  But, in general, it does not play like DnD - where two opponents stand toe to toe and slug it out.  Generally in my experience, after 3-4 rounds, it's pretty clear which way the fight is going to end, and one side will choose to bug out.  Many simpler conflicts - say, jumped by goons - can end in one exchange.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: TheMouse on November 26, 2010, 05:51:13 PM

Quote from: Lancer on November 26, 2010, 07:36:21 AM

I know that characters have stress boxes, but it seems like you only have 3-4 of those, does that mean  you only get 3-4 hitponts, because that feels like not alot at all.

Because of the way that stress works, it's actually a bit variable how many "hit points" people have.

4 stress boxes might absorb 4 points of stress, or they might absorb 10. If you get hit with four 1 stress hits, the boxes are filled. If you get hit with 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 point hits, that's still exactly enough to fill 4 boxes.

Then Consequences are part of your "hit point" pool as well. You generally get four of those, valued at 2, 4, 6, and 8 points respectively. You can go through those in four 1 point hits, or you can go through them in a 2, 4, 6, and 8 point hit. So it varies between 4 and 20 stress.

Add those two things together and you've got a character with no special powers being able to take somewhere between 8 and 30 points of stress. The exact amount it actually takes depends on how damaging individual shots are.

Now combine that with Toughness powers and you've got someone that can potentially take a huge pile of damage before dropping. Someone with Mythic Toughness and Recovery can conceivably take over 130 points of stress before being dropped, if those hits come in at just the right level of damage.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Wilder on November 27, 2010, 10:08:48 AM

Which, in my limited experience, is why you hit them Hard and Fast. Don't plink at them and let them get a shot off at you. Drop a building on them!

Do you ever hear Harry tell Murphy, "Just shoot to wound?"

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Belial666 on November 27, 2010, 12:22:49 PM

It's the same way DnD wizards are played, really. Why throw spell after standard spell at the dragon for 10 rounds until it croaks when you can throw a twinned, empowered, energy admixtured, maximized, searing flame orb of fire and blast it apart in one round with... *calculates*  ...540 points of damage?



Also, keep in mind that DnD hit points equal to DFRPG stress in a 10 to 1 basis, more or less, given that one handed weapons are usually weapon 1, two-handed and one handed guns are weapon 2, rifles and exceptional quality/enchanted weapons are weapon 3. So someone with Mythic Toughness and Hulking Size being able to survive as many as a dozen 10-stress hits would be about the same as a DnD character taking a dozen 100-damage hits.  (Mythic Toughness plus Hulking Size usually equals dragons or powerful Demons in DF)

It's a difference in scale as well as a difference in system.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: mostlyawake on November 27, 2010, 02:57:40 PM

Quote from: Belial666 on November 27, 2010, 12:22:49 PM

It's a difference in scale as well as a difference in system.

True. I think this is the hardest thing for some people to get used to. Yes, the dice spread only goes from -4 to +4, and many things give you only a +1 or +2... but those little differences matter a great deal.  Some math nerd (Read, probably more intelligent and financially more stable) person than me can tell you exactly how much of a better chance you have hitting a difficulty in this game when you increase your rating by just one point... but suffice to say, it's a big difference!

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Belial666 on November 27, 2010, 03:17:03 PM

About the same as if you increased your attack roll in DnD by 5 points.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Wilder on November 29, 2010, 10:11:35 AM

A +1 is a 25% increase over base, due to a max die roll of +4 and a min of -4, with the average being 0. However, the percentage of increase varies after you start adding in static bonuses. But thats the same in any system.

Also, the short answer is what Belial said, I was just providing numbers for our non-DnD people.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Amelia Crane on November 29, 2010, 11:18:24 AM

Quote from: mostlyawake on November 27, 2010, 02:57:40 PM

Some math nerd can tell you exactly how much of a better chance you have hitting a difficulty in this game when you increase your rating by just one point...

Okay.  You asked for it.  There are 4 dice, each has an equal chance to display +, - and blank (3 options).  So there are 81 possible rolls (if the dice were distinguishable).  Run through the permutations and figure out how many configurations give each result.

So the table just shows the possible results.  The chance of rolling that result, which is also the improvement you get from increasing your skill by one to the value on the left.  And the chance to roll at least as high as a needed result, which tells you what your chances to succeed are on a given roll.

Result	Chance of Result	Chance of Result or Better
-4	1/81 or 1.2%	81/81 or 100%
-3	4/81 or 4.9%	80/81 or 98.8%
-2	10/81 or 12.3%	76/81 or 93.8%
-1	16/81 or 19.8%	66/81 or 81.5%
+0	19/81 or 23.5%	50/81 or 61.7%
+1	16/81 or 19.8%	31/81 or 38.3%
+2	10/81 or 12.3%	15/81 or 18.5%
+3	4/81 or 4.9%	5/81 or 6.2%
+4	1/81 or 1.2%	1/81 or 1.2%

The good news is, there's really only the one chart needed for the entire game.  Well, opposed rolls will change things slightly.  Maybe you'd want a second chart for that.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Lancer on December 02, 2010, 06:40:54 AM

Thanks alot guys, the explanations and the sample combat were huge helps.

I think I have a decent grasp of combat except for knowing what to roll for. I'm a little confused on how you roll for dodging/blocking. How is someones block or dodge calculated and how do you decide to use one over another?

As a secondary question, how do you figure out how many foci a wizard gets, and how powerful they are and how many uses they have?

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 02, 2010, 07:11:17 AM

Quote from: Lancer on December 02, 2010, 06:40:54 AM

Thanks alot guys, the explanations and the sample combat were huge helps.

I think I have a decent grasp of combat except for knowing what to roll for. I'm a little confused on how you roll for dodging/blocking. How is someones block or dodge calculated and how do you decide to use one over another?

As a secondary question, how do you figure out how many foci a wizard gets, and how powerful they are and how many uses they have?

   Blocks and dodges are "Skill checks" just like attacks, but theres many different skills you can use. The base skill is athletics (the player dodges out of the way), But you can also use Fists (you block with your arms) against other fist attacks, or Weapon (you parry with your weapon) against both fists and weapons attacks.
   Basically, it boils down to, the player describes how he plans to avoid being hit, then the group makes a consensus of what skill best suits the described action. Then the player rolls that skill against the attack roll of his enemy.

   Focus Items are built using the focus item slots you get from the Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Channeling, Ritual, and refinement powers.
   The rules for how you use the slots to build items are pretty involved, but they start on page 278 of your story.

Title: Re: Halp Plz. (Newbie here)
Post by: crusher_bob on December 02, 2010, 10:38:35 AM

In regular physical combat, you normally have 3 defensive options
Fists, which can defend other unarmed attacks
Weapons, which can defend against other Fist and Weapon based attacks
and
Athletics, which can generally defend against anything

Very rarely (mostly because it's actually quite powerful) an attack will require an alternate skill to defend against.  For example, earth magic evocation used to cause earthquakes and similar tricks are tagged as defended against with might.  (Or, we'd assume, just finding some way to get off the ground.)

------

Social and Mental combat have different defensive skills (Usually rapport for social combat and usually discipline for mental combat)  See the appropriate sections of the book for them.

------

The defenses are just normal skill checks (e.g. roll the 4 fudge dice and add the result to your skill).  Note that ambushes can reduce your effective skill to 0, but you still get to roll the 4 fudge dice and add.

------

When people refer to 'blocks' as a defense against attacks, they are almost always referring to defensive blocks put up by evocation (or enchanted items).  Note that evocation blocks aren't 'rolled' after they are put up, you just use their fixed value.

-------

You get 2 focus items slots from any of the following:
ritual
thaumaturgy
channeling
evocation

You normally get 4 focus item slots from sponsored magic (which is really ritual + channeling + some special effects).  However, if you already have full thaumaturgy and/or full evocation, the amount of 'free' focus item slots you get from sponsored magic is reduced.  (i.e. you can only ever get 4 free focus item slots).

--------

You can also spend refresh on 'refinement' which, among other things, can get you 2 more focus item slots.

--------

You can trade out a focus slot for two enchanted item slots.
So, for example, a basic -7 wizard (the sight, evocation, thaumatrugy) gets 4 focus item slots.
He could then trade out 2 of his focus item slots from 4 enchanted slots.

--------

Foci don't have limited uses, they just power up you thaumaturgy or evocation when you have them.  It's enchanted items that have a limited number of uses.

The basic enchanted item starts with a strength equal to your lore, and has 1 use per game session.

You can increase the base power and/or number of uses by taking crafting related thaumaturgy specialties, having crafting related foci, or by using more than a single enchanted item slot on a single item.

--------

Other enchanted item notes:
It's frowned upon to make an enchanted item with more power than twice your lore.

You can gain an additional use out of an enchanted item by paying one mental stress at the time of the use.

Enchanted defensive items cost no action to use and can generate either a block at their base power, or armor at half-power (round down).