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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on April 09, 2021, 08:01:55 PM
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Nothing much to say here. I don't know that I care what happens to Rudolph. I wouldn't mind if someone like Lea decided that because a Winter ally had been killed and that death was a blow to the person she is still obligated to look after, sort of, that a balancing of the scales was called for and something swift, nasty and Final Destination like happened to Rudolph. However, I suspect Jim has something else in mind. If you want to guess what that may be, rather than what you would like to see happen, go for it.
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Honestly that post about how Rudolph probably got absolutely mauled by the Nightmare offscreen and that caused his 180 sold me on the idea of a potential Rudolph redemption arc, not as a kotc though.
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Could you link to that post? It sounds interesting
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What's weird about him is that he appears to think the supernatural is totally fake, to the point of total denial even when it's right in front of him, but was working for the Eebs. So there may be more to it like his mind has been destroyed by having his mind invaded.
On one hand you want to see him suffer badly for what he did. On the other hand, he genuinely thought that Murphy and Dresden were doing crazy stuff. he couldn't accept what was happening, and basically was detached from reality. He wasn't trying to do something bad, he was just totally losing his shit.
So I really don't know what I want to see happen lol.
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Could you link to that post? It sounds interesting
https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/j6qxa9/the_backstory_to_villainy/
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What's weird about him is that he appears to think the supernatural is totally fake, to the point of total denial even when it's right in front of him, but was working for the Eebs. So there may be more to it like his mind has been destroyed by having his mind invaded.
On one hand you want to see him suffer badly for what he did. On the other hand, he genuinely thought that Murphy and Dresden were doing crazy stuff. he couldn't accept what was happening, and basically was detached from reality. He wasn't trying to do something bad, he was just totally losing his shit.
So I really don't know what I want to see happen lol.
I think Murphys family will find out what Rudolph did. They are cops. She has police friends who are cops. I think Rudolph will have bad things happen to him if he is not charged and convicted of killing Murphy.
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What's weird about him is that he appears to think the supernatural is totally fake, to the point of total denial even when it's right in front of him, but was working for the Eebs. So there may be more to it like his mind has been destroyed by having his mind invaded.
On one hand you want to see him suffer badly for what he did. On the other hand, he genuinely thought that Murphy and Dresden were doing crazy stuff. he couldn't accept what was happening, and basically was detached from reality. He wasn't trying to do something bad, he was just totally losing his shit.
So I really don't know what I want to see happen lol.
I totally agree, the man is sick, unless he gets treatment somewhere it will become evident that he is sick by his department.
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I think Murphys family will find out what Rudolph did. They are cops. She has police friends who are cops. I think Rudolph will have bad things happen to him if he is not charged and convicted of killing Murphy.
Problem with this is only four people know what happened. Harry, in the eyes of most of the police department is a nut case. Butters, a man who did a stint in an insane asylum. Sanya, a Russian who no one knows but has used guns to kill former human agents. And Rudolph, who is a part of the agency and who other cops would believe over the other three if he's in any state of mind to keep his standing.
There's no body to say anything different.
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Problem with this is only four people know what happened. Harry, in the eyes of most of the police department is a nut case. Butters, a man who did a stint in an insane asylum. Sanya, a Russian who no one knows but has used guns to kill former human agents. And Rudolph, who is a part of the agency and who other cops would believe over the other three if he's in any state of mind to keep his standing.
There's no body to say anything different.
It could very well work out that way. If it does, it would suggest to me that Rudolph will eventually face a different and far more messy reckoning.
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I think Murphys family will find out what Rudolph did. They are cops. She has police friends who are cops. I think Rudolph will have bad things happen to him if he is not charged and convicted of killing Murphy.
There's no body, how could anyone make an accusation? I doubt Rudolph would face any consequences under the law.
About the cops in Murph's family doing something about it, maybe, but with the battle being as big as it was, probably most of the members of the family that were serving were on duty that night. Maybe many of them died too. Same for her friends in the police.
I think option 2 is the best.
And I wouldn't care if he finds real regret and healing and gets some redemption. Something really f**ked him over for him to go from defending Murphy from Dresden to hating them both so much. But making him a KoC would be a bit too much for me.
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I think Murphys family will find out what Rudolph did. They are cops. She has police friends who are cops. I think Rudolph will have bad things happen to him if he is not charged and convicted of killing Murphy.
Guess it depends on what things are like after BG... I mean things won't go back to normal after an incursion like that. Rudolph's action could be lost in the chaos of it all so that her family just assumes she was a casualty of the incursion.
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I like the idea of EinherKarrin coming back early for the BAT and either beating the shit out of him or telling the other cops he murdered her. I also like the idea of him being Skavis food.
I suspect, though, he's just going to beat the rap and try to press charges on Harry for trying to kill him, as well as causing further trouble from within the legal system.
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There's no body, how could anyone make an accusation? I doubt Rudolph would face any consequences under the law.
About the cops in Murph's family doing something about it, maybe, but with the battle being as big as it was, probably most of the members of the family that were serving were on duty that night. Maybe many of them died too. Same for her friends in the police.
I think option 2 is the best.
And I wouldn't care if he finds real regret and healing and gets some redemption. Something really f**ked him over for him to go from defending Murphy from Dresden to hating them both so much. But making him a KoC would be a bit too much for me.
Rudolph could always confess. Not that I believe it's likely to happen, but we have no clue where Jim is going to take this character. Rudolph could have a redemption arc, though I also don't like the idea of him becoming the KotC, but there could be other ways that Rudolph could seek to redeem himself. I've also thought that Rudolph could simply go insane, though if he does stick around for a while, I now favor Nicodemus giving him a coin.
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Yes, I think Rudolph should have to ask for forgiveness and it will act as a device to allow Harry to get better himself. When he is able to forgive Rudolph, he will level up and probably get some advantage against the Mantle trying to taint him.
Rudolph will probably have some sort of redeeming arc but I don't see him as very important besides of becoming a tool for Dresden's improvement.
I definitely won't see him as a KotC.
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My WAG:
Rudolph will beat the rap, Harry will go vigilante on his ass, thus bringing him into conflict with the White Council.
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Lara sends a White Court Vampire after Rudolph as a wedding present. Disgraced cop commits suicide? Who'd investigate the super model that just moved in next door?
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Now that you mentioned it, I think Gard's sister would be more than willing to help with that (she cannot force a man to commit suicide the way a vampire can, but she has other ways, I am sure).
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Rudolph already committed suicide in BG and God himself intervened to save him, I doubt that he's going anywhere.
He has to continue to exist as an annoying Karma Houdini that Dresden isn't allowed to kill like the rest of his enemies to maximize Harry's suffering you see.
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I think Rudolph should visit Mab's traitor tree for rest of the series but instead of traitor they can carve "Believe" then just before end of series he should be sent to Hades and enjoy the judgments that follow...
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I think Molly is going to do a number on his brain, because as Winter Lady she is beyond the White Council now and knows her Knight/mentor/friend, Harry cannot do it to avenge Murphy. Rudolph will live out his days in a fetal position with his thumb in his mouth looking for his navel.
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I don't think Molly, as a Queen, is allowed to directly harm a vanilla man (I mean, we know Mab is not allowed, I don't think the Lady can)
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I don't think Molly, as a Queen, is allowed to directly harm a vanilla man (I mean, we know Mab is not allowed, I don't think the Lady can)
She may have a way around that, I seem to remember Maeve messing with Billy in Summer Knight. I don't think it would take much to completely boot Rudolph off the sanity deep end for good.
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I don't think Molly, as a Queen, is allowed to directly harm a vanilla man (I mean, we know Mab is not allowed, I don't think the Lady can)
There are many ways Molly could use winter to entrap Rudolph. Make a deal, send a changeling, send a phobophage, etc. I don't think she'll mind whammy him directly but she may look for revenge.
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So it's okay for someone else to murder Rudolf even though the Knights went out of their way to save him? This is a blood thirsty group. A few words noting his admittance to a home for the terminally stupid is more than enough print space for him.
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So it's okay for someone else to murder Rudolf even though the Knights went out of their way to save him? This is a blood thirsty group. A few words noting his admittance to a home for the terminally stupid is more than enough print space for him.
I don't believe the Knights went out of their way to save Rudolph, they went out of their way to save Harry. It was Harry's soul that was at stake had he taken revenge on Rudolph, it isn't up to him to judge. Rudolph will face justice, perhaps in the courts, certainly before the Almighty.
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Ok, so why is it ok for Molly to mess with someone's mind now when it's still just as wrong now as when she did it back in PG. That was the first lesson she learned from Harry.
It doesn't matter how much it could possibly make Harry feel better, she knows that the ending outcome would hurt her relationship with Harry.
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Yeah, let the White God do him. That would work.
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So it's okay for someone else to murder Rudolf even though the Knights went out of their way to save him? This is a blood thirsty group. A few words noting his admittance to a home for the terminally stupid is more than enough print space for him.
I don't think any of us are being particularly bloodthirsty, part of this is Catharsis over how some fans feel Murphy went out, part of this is speculating where the drama will come from next. Molly or Lara killing Rudolph brings the drama to Harry's life. With Molly it raises the question of how much or her humanity is left? Lara doing the deed raises the specter of intervention by Eb or another major player acting against her. Tons of great story potential from either of those options.
Ok, so why is it ok for Molly to mess with someone's mind now when it's still just as wrong now as when she did it back in PG. That was the first lesson she learned from Harry.
It doesn't matter how much it could possibly make Harry feel better, she knows that the ending outcome would hurt her relationship with Harry.
Again, I think that if Molly does kill Rudolph directly or indirectly it will not be "ok" and be treated as a huge crossing the line moment by everyone who knows Molly.
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Ok, so why is it ok for Molly to mess with someone's mind now when it's still just as wrong now as when she did it back in PG. That was the first lesson she learned from Harry.
It doesn't matter how much it could possibly make Harry feel better, she knows that the ending outcome would hurt her relationship with Harry.
Molly has always had her own ideas, that is why her slide into warlockhood is so hard to check. To begin with she thought she was doing right by her friends when she messed with their heads, causing lots of damage in the process. Then in Turncoat she was back at it again in an effort to help Harry, though it could have cost them both their heads. Thus if she thinks she is helping Harry by offing Rudolph in some way or making him insane for the duration, she will do it.
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Rudolph already committed suicide in BG and God himself intervened to save him, I doubt that he's going anywhere.
He has to continue to exist as an annoying Karma Houdini that Dresden isn't allowed to kill like the rest of his enemies to maximize Harry's suffering you see.
Rudolph wasn’t saved for his benefit, but for Harry’s, to prevent Harry from becoming a murdering monster over such an inconsequential piece of crap. Harry is important, Rudolph isn’t.
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Rudolph wasn’t saved for his benefit, but for Harry’s, to prevent Harry from becoming a murdering monster over such an inconsequential piece of crap. Harry is important, Rudolph isn’t.
Harry has already murdered people who deserve it before without the literal forces of heaven stepping in though.
More likely Jim wanted to keep Rudolph around being a piece of crap that fucks Harry over without consequence for a bit longer.
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Rudolph wasn’t saved for his benefit, but for Harry’s, to prevent Harry from becoming a murdering monster over such an inconsequential piece of crap. Harry is important, Rudolph isn’t.
Rudolf was saved because killing him would be an evil act. It doesn't become less evil because someone else does it.
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Molly has always had her own ideas, that is why her slide into warlockhood is so hard to check. To begin with she thought she was doing right by her friends when she messed with their heads, causing lots of damage in the process. Then in Turncoat she was back at it again in an effort to help Harry, though it could have cost them both their heads. Thus if she thinks she is helping Harry by offing Rudolph in some way or making him insane for the duration, she will do it.
What happened with Luccio wasn't backtracking. She had no intention of rearranging her mind like she did with her friends. It's just that the council takes a hard line on anything to do with the mind.
What she did in Harry's absence because he was dead, that is a different story. She did what she did to help her city, but did it because she didn't care if she die. It was her self punishment for assisting in the man she loves death.
Now that he's back, she has been trying to live and act right.
It's not in her character anymore to kill Rudolph.
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Harry finds out that Rudolph's actions weren't entirely his own, and if he had killed him, it would have been murder, and not justice. That's one of the reasons if not the main reason the KoTC were there. To save Rudolph, and Dresden.
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In universe, it is not ok to kill Rudolph. But as readers of a fiction work, we can suggest things that happen in tbe books that we wouldn't advocate IRL. For instance, killing Rudolph with extreme prejudice.
In universe, it shouldn't happen, for several reasons, one of those is Rudolph did not want to kill Karrin, it was an accident (or divine intervention).
But we are allowed to hate a character. I see it a little like many years ago when a lot of Star Trek fans wanted to will Wesley Crusher
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Came across this posted on the dresdenfiles reddit, so credit goes to the original poster:
"Rudolph should get sent back in time to get slaughtered by the loup garou."
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In universe, it is not ok to kill Rudolph. But as readers of a fiction work, we can suggest things that happen in tbe books that we wouldn't advocate IRL. For instance, killing Rudolph with extreme prejudice.
In universe, it shouldn't happen, for several reasons, one of those is Rudolph did not want to kill Karrin, it was an accident (or divine intervention).
But we are allowed to hate a character. I see it a little like many years ago when a lot of Star Trek fans wanted to will Wesley Crusher
Yeah people don't seem to have a problem hating. I try to avoid it myself and not being a saint, mostly I fail :'(. Having said that I tried to come up with an alternative measure which didn't involve murder.
Since everyone here loves time travel so much, here's one. Go back and arrange things so that Rudolf is never born, and thus a timeline where Murphy doesn't die. A morning after pill in Mama's coffee would do it.
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IRL, I believe I only managed to hate 2 people, and one of them I've never met. But in fiction? I hate several characters :-). Even so, sometimes I forgive them after a while (or a redemption arc). Draco Malfoy, for instance, or Dudley. Not their parents.
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Yeah people don't seem to have a problem hating. I try to avoid it myself and not being a saint, mostly I fail :'(. Having said that I tried to come up with an alternative measure which didn't involve murder.
Since everyone here loves time travel so much, here's one. Go back and arrange things so that Rudolf is never born, and thus a timeline where Murphy doesn't die. A morning after pill in Mama's coffee would do it.
Yeah, but be careful for what you wish for, in the alternate timeline, Justin succeeds in enthralling Elaine.. Murphy's marriage to her first husband is a success and she retires from the police force to care for her six kids. Michael is killed fighting that dragon and Charity goes on not only to be a powerful warlock, but to host Namshiel's coin as well. Margaret does die in childbirth, but giving birth to Thomas, and Harry is never born.. So be careful for what you wish for, you might get it..
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Harry has already murdered people who deserve it before without the literal forces of heaven stepping in though.
Not like this. Not a completely helpless man killed with magic by an emotional Harry who completely lost it.
Most others were killed in combat. Susan was because of her self sacrifice as Michael pointed out and Slate was also different.
More likely Jim wanted to keep Rudolph around being a piece of crap that fucks Harry over without consequence for a bit longer.
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Not like this. Not a completely helpless man killed with magic by an emotional Harry who completely lost it.
Even if Harry didn't use magic to kill him, he had so totally lost it, he was ready to throttle him with him bare hands. Actually I am not sure he was going to use magic to do it, if he was, I don't think the Knights would have been quick enough to stop him. I guess Harry possibly could have been forgive had he done it, Murphy's death rendered him insane for a few moments. However I doubt given his reaction once he came to his senses, that Harry would ever have been able to forgive himself.
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Even if Harry didn't use magic to kill him, he had so totally lost it, he was ready to throttle him with him bare hands. Actually I am not sure he was going to use magic to do it, if he was, I don't think the Knights would have been quick enough to stop him. I guess Harry possibly could have been forgive had he done it, Murphy's death rendered him insane for a few moments. However I doubt given his reaction once he came to his senses, that Harry would ever have been able to forgive himself.
The knights would have time. Harry was not going to do it fast.
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In universe, it is not ok to kill Rudolph. But as readers of a fiction work, we can suggest things that happen in tbe books that we wouldn't advocate IRL. For instance, killing Rudolph with extreme prejudice.
In universe, it shouldn't happen, for several reasons, one of those is Rudolph did not want to kill Karrin, it was an accident (or divine intervention).
But we are allowed to hate a character. I see it a little like many years ago when a lot of Star Trek fans wanted to will Wesley Crusher
I never liked Westly. I just wanted him to go away. He eventually did by going to Starfleet Academy and making some poor choices. Rudolph, I would like to see him pay for all the bad he has done.
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Harry could arrange a horrible fate for Rudolph without touching him. For example let Rudolph chase after Harry to arrest him. Harry opens a way to the Nevernever, Rudolph follows. Harry then eludes Rudolph and departs, and lets Rudolph deal with goblins, trolls, for example.
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The knights would have time. Harry was not going to do it fast.
But what if he didn't? Just a word and Rudolph would have been a burnt grease spot..
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Dunno how, but just send him to jail or other protective custody, he's gonna be ever more insane as reality becomes ever more supernatural. And it's starting to strain credibility that such an obvious lickspittle gets good enough at sucking up to survive it all.
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I never liked Westly. I just wanted him to go away. He eventually did by going to Starfleet Academy and making some poor choices. Rudolph, I would like to see him pay for all the bad he has done.
I did not hate Wesley either, it was just an example, a character "universally" hated.(The Harry Potter examples were true to my feelings, though).
Mira et al, Harry was specifically trying to play with Rudolph to make him pay, so he was not going to kill him fast. And he was using his shield, so magic was involved. He did not just shoot Rudolph in a burst of rage. Anyways, Mira is right, Harry wouldn't have forgiven himself, even if laws (vanilla or magical) could.
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Mira et al, Harry was specifically trying to play with Rudolph to make him pay, so he was not going to kill him fast. And he was using his shield, so magic was involved. He did not just shoot Rudolph in a burst of rage. Anyways, Mira is right, Harry wouldn't have forgiven himself, even if laws (vanilla or magical) could.
Everyone, even saints have their breaking point, not just that, but it had been building for a while because of Rudolph's stupidity and paranoia that finally ended in Murphy's death. So Harry totally lost it, but I agree, not so much that he killed him instantly. The first is understandable and forgivable, the second isn't because it isn't Harry's place to dish out justice. It is like the time when Harry stopped Michael from beating the guy who kidnapped his daughter to death with a baseball bat. Michael's rage is understandable and forgivable, however killing him wasn't. I think if that bat had been a Holy Sword, even Michael would have gotten burnt..
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TBH, I doubt there will be any kind of reckoning inside the justice system or a court of law. As others have pointed out, no body, no case. And, setting personal preferences aside, depending on if/how/when Murphy comes back, it might be hard to convince people that she is/was actually dead versus presumed dead in legal terms.
That being said, I think there will be some kind of reckoning, whether it's with a baseball bat like Snakeboy or something of the more supernatural variety. I'm personally not in favor of a redemption arc for him, but I won't lose any sleep if he gets one.
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What happens to Rudolph depends on whether Jim wants to favour retribution or redemption mostly.
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What happens to Rudolph depends on whether Jim wants to favour retribution or redemption mostly.
Oh I don't think it matters much what happens to Rudolph, it is about how Harry reacts to what happens to Rudolph, that matters. What is real redemption for Rudolph? He cannot undo what his careless paranoia did to Murphy.. How does he atone for that and to whom? If to Harry, can he forgive him and mean it? Or if Rudolph is punished for it, no matter what form that takes, will Harry feel a sense of satisfaction for justice served? Or pity for a mad man? Or no pity because he killed his love? Then if he feels either can Harry forgive himself for feeling it?
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Oh I don't think it matters much what happens to Rudolph, it is about how Harry reacts to what happens to Rudolph, that matters. What is real redemption for Rudolph? He cannot undo what his careless paranoia did to Murphy.. How does he atone for that and to whom? If to Harry, can he forgive him and mean it? Or if Rudolph is punished for it, no matter what form that takes, will Harry feel a sense of satisfaction for justice served? Or pity for a mad man? Or no pity because he killed his love? Then if he feels either can Harry forgive himself for feeling it?
That is likely the correct answer out of all of this. I can imagine Harry and Michael having a chat on the porch over this one. Especially if someone from Winter (the Redcap is my new pick) does the deed as a wedding present.
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either he should be redeemed, and do something useful, or go full bad, and get destroyed. If he goes bad I think becoming a Black Court vamp, or better yet takes up a Coin would be a good way for him to get wasted.
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Congratulated for removing a character that had grown tiresome and then sewn into a sack of starving weasels and thrown into the Chicago River, because reasons....
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Congratulated for removing a character that had grown tiresome and then sewn into a sack of starving weasels and thrown into the Chicago River, because reasons....
Except he lands on an old barge, so instead of drowning mercifully, he is eaten by the weasels.. Who claw their way out of the sack and are promptly sick...